What does gender feel like?

[purpleandgreylife]

On 7/14/2018 at 6:11 AM, nelpogrando said:

Because I’m majority agender, I tend to have something like Schroedinger’s gender, where if I want to know my gender at a given time I have to ask myself about it, but sometimes my dysphoria will tell me, since it’s somewhat different when I’m leaning masculine as opposed to fully agender, and when I’m leaning feminine I don’t feel it as much.

 

On 7/14/2018 at 7:42 AM, G1P0 said:

I don't think one feels like a gender per se.

 

It's something of an identity, a state of being. Perhaps a state of mind.

 

However, there can be feelings stemming from it. I don't feel like a girl, but rather have certain feelings that tie into being a girl (particularly one born male). This of course being the dysphoria towards my masculinity, and the sense that a feminine body and being seen and regarded as a woman is just right for me, and something I desire.

 

Cis folks I would imagine probably don't feel much about their gender. After all, they are comfortable with how they are. In fact, I've seen many cis people say they don't feel anything in terms of gender, yet also state that they simply are their gender. A cis-male doesn't feel male, and may not have significant feelings in regards to being male. He just is male.

 

As an analogy, what does nationality feel like? I don't feel American, but I am one. I could have feelings related to it though. I might be fine with it, indifferent to it, wish to emigrate, or dissociate from the concept of nationality altogether.

 

On 7/14/2018 at 10:13 AM, TheAP said:

Being non-binary isn't based on gender stereotypes any more than being binary trans is. A genderfluid person might one day feel very comfortable in their body and feel like a cis male/female, but another day feel very dysphoric and want to wear a binder, for example, like a trans person. They might present as different genders at different times to lessen the dysphoria.

 

On 7/13/2018 at 1:52 AM, Starbogen said:

Personally, I don't think that "gender" itself can be boiled down to just a singular "feeling" of being male, female, or a non-binary gender. I've never felt like any gender. I don't "feel" like a man, and I have no idea what that would even be supposed to feel like. When I talked to several cis people about this they've told me similar things about how they also don't feel like a man or a woman and don't know what that would feel like, they just are a man or a woman (because that's what feels right).

 

In my case being my gender assigned at birth felt wrong, and eventually I realized that being male felt the most right so that's what I identify as.. But this "feeling" of right and wrong isn't something so simple that can be translated to "feeling like a man". I think that kind of phrasing is way too oversimplified and just leads to confusion in people who aren't cis but also don't have a very intense connection to gender like say those trans people who have known and vocalized they were trans since they were little kids.

 

What I mean by femaleness feeling wrong and maleness feeling right isn't that I "feel male" because what does male or female even feel like..? It's that the vast majority of things associated with being male feel okay, good, right, comfortable, normal to me while in comparisson the vast majority of things associated with being female feel weird, alien, uncomfortable, disturbing to me. For some people this can be more "socially based" but I've always been an androgynous and gender nonconforming person no matter what gender I was so for me it's more strongly "body based". 

 

That's where body dysphoria comes in.. so when I say I identify as male a lot of it what led me to that conclusion was that when I look at my body and think about it, female attributes just feel wrong to me and always have. I feel like they should not be there and like they make my body look.. mishapen. Meanwhile when I see myself with more male features, mainly when I can change my body shape through clothes, that looks a lot more normal and just makes more sense to me. As a note.. I don't think I have a very strong connection to my gender because my personality is noncomforming and physically I would still prefer to be an androgynous man, but ultimately I know I'd feel more okay with a completely male body than with a completely female body.

 

Of course the social elements of gender can't just be ignored and in that aspect I also feel more comfortable with being considered male. So stuff like pronouns and titles.. the male form feels nicer to me than the female form. And basically that's what I think people mean by "feeling" like a gender. It's not really about having some particular feeling of maleness or femaleness like an emotion or something but it's about how things that signify maleness or femaleness or nonbinariness make you feel.

I have a follow up question. You all mentioned dysphoria in your answers. I know intellectually what dysphoria means (I haven't done much other research on it though, past a cursory definition and explanation), but how do you all define it? Also, what does it feel like, if you can put it into words? If you don't feel comfortable answering this question, I understand.

[Fluffy Femme Guy]

I'm a cis male, and have no doubts/inner conflicts about my sex/gender identity.

But in terms of personality, interests and clothing, I am not 'confined' or 'limited' by masculinity.
I feel free to choose the kind of things that seem natural to me with little to no regard to culture gender norms.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, purpleandgreylife said:

 

 

 

I have a follow up question. You all mentioned dysphoria in your answers. I know intellectually what dysphoria means (I haven't done much other research on it though, past a cursory definition and explanation), but how do you all define it? Also, what does it feel like, if you can put it into words? If you don't feel comfortable answering this question, I understand.

Everyone experiences dysphoria differently, but for me, it’s the feeling that female sex characteristics, pronouns, and gendered terms are instinctively wrong.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

6 hours ago, purpleandgreylife said:

I have a follow up question. You all mentioned dysphoria in your answers. I know intellectually what dysphoria means (I haven't done much other research on it though, past a cursory definition and explanation), but how do you all define it? Also, what does it feel like, if you can put it into words? If you don't feel comfortable answering this question, I understand.

It's literally like having a massive growth somewhere on your body that isn't supposed to be there, but you can't just rip it off because blood vessels and shit. Every time you feel or see it you cringe and die inside until you simply have to do something about it. And you know everyone else can see it too so you end up trying to hide it or just not go out of the house, and if you say it shouldn't be there, people, in their wisdom, say "ah, but it is! so suck it up and deal with it". Trust me if I wouldn't die of haemorrhaging I would have dealt with it by now.

[purpleandgreylife]

1 hour ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

It's literally like having a massive growth somewhere on your body that isn't supposed to be there, but you can't just rip it off because blood vessels and shit. Every time you feel or see it you cringe and die inside until you simply have to do something about it. And you know everyone else can see it too so you end up trying to hide it or just not go out of the house, and if you say it shouldn't be there, people, in their wisdom, say "ah, but it is! so suck it up and deal with it". Trust me if I wouldn't die of haemorrhaging I would have dealt with it by now.

That sounds really intense. I'm sorry you have had to/continue to go through that. Especially the part about you knowing it shouldn't be there, yet feeling no understanding or sympathy from others when you tell them.

[purpleandgreylife]

1 hour ago, nelpogrando said:

Everyone experiences dysphoria differently, but for me, it’s the feeling that female sex characteristics, pronouns, and gendered terms are instinctively wrong.

So, is it the stereotypical view of femaleness that bothers you or that femaleness in general, even if you are associated with even the most liberal version of femaleness?  Is it the pronouns or the connotations behind them is basically what I'm asking. I hope I'm communicating this correctly. I don't mean to devalue or downplay your feelings.

[purpleandgreylife]

7 hours ago, Fluffy Femme Guy said:

I'm a cis male, and have no doubts/inner conflicts about my sex/gender identity.

But in terms of personality, interests and clothing, I am not 'confined' or 'limited' by masculinity.
I feel free to choose the kind of things that seem natural to me with little to no regard to culture gender norms.

That sounds really freeing! You seem to have an open mind about stereotypes versus reality. I'm glad you don't let other peoples pre-conceived notions of who you should be stop you from being yourself. I am curious, how people respond to you? Are the reactions generally positive? Are you around people who support your freedom to express yourself?

[Fluffy Femme Guy]

2 hours ago, purpleandgreylife said:

I am curious, how people respond to you? Are the reactions generally positive? Are you around people who support your freedom to express yourself? 

Most people don't bother me about it. I have gotten compliments about my painted nails and jewelry from strangers as well as people I know.
Most don't seem to say anything either way or show any particular reaction.

My friends and family don't try to force people to be a certain way ('be yourself' is kind of our unspoken motto), and we're all kind of oddballs in various ways to begin with.

 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

9 hours ago, purpleandgreylife said:

That sounds really intense. I'm sorry you have had to/continue to go through that. Especially the part about you knowing it shouldn't be there, yet feeling no understanding or sympathy from others when you tell them.

Intense is definitely a word I would use.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, purpleandgreylife said:

So, is it the stereotypical view of femaleness that bothers you or that femaleness in general, even if you are associated with even the most liberal version of femaleness?  Is it the pronouns or the connotations behind them is basically what I'm asking. I hope I'm communicating this correctly. I don't mean to devalue or downplay your feelings.

It’s femaleness in general. I’m lucky enough to have parents who didn’t enforce gender roles even before I came out. I’ve always loved science fiction, which is traditionally a more masculine interest, and rather than making me read girlier genres like realistic fiction, my family gives me book recommendations.

[purpleandgreylife]

4 hours ago, nelpogrando said:

It’s femaleness in general. I’m lucky enough to have parents who didn’t enforce gender roles even before I came out. I’ve always loved science fiction, which is traditionally a more masculine interest, and rather than making me read girlier genres like realistic fiction, my family gives me book recommendations.

I'm glad to hear that your parents support you!

[purpleandgreylife]

13 hours ago, Fluffy Femme Guy said:

Most people don't bother me about it. I have gotten compliments about my painted nails and jewelry from strangers as well as people I know.
Most don't seem to say anything either way or show any particular reaction.

My friends and family don't try to force people to be a certain way ('be yourself' is kind of our unspoken motto), and we're all kind of oddballs in various ways to begin with.

 

That's great that you mainly get positive reactions from others and have supportive family and friends!

[InfiniteNull]

In general I think there is a sort of bias created in most cisgender folx... It's sort of like feeling "air"... like even when a person feels air they tend to think of it as "wind"... It's just not as obvious that it's there because it's always there. They have the general experience but they don't have to separate it from their everyday experience so they do't notice that they experience it. 

 

For those of us who have a mismatch in our perceived gender or bodies it's as if the air was painful (dysphoria)... For me, transition is like getting out of a room full of smoke into the fresh air so that I can breath and run and be me and laugh and shout and enjoy the real air. 

[purpleandgreylife]

7 hours ago, InfiniteNull said:

In general I think there is a sort of bias created in most cisgender folx... It's sort of like feeling "air"... like even when a person feels air they tend to think of it as "wind"... It's just not as obvious that it's there because it's always there. They have the general experience but they don't have to separate it from their everyday experience so they do't notice that they experience it. 

 

For those of us who have a mismatch in our perceived gender or bodies it's as if the air was painful (dysphoria)... For me, transition is like getting out of a room full of smoke into the fresh air so that I can breath and run and be me and laugh and shout and enjoy the real air. 

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.

 

You use metaphor beautifully to express what you mean.

 

I've been around a lot of smokers and a lot of smog, so I know the relief when you get out of that polluted air and take that deep breath in (finally) and know that you are taking in and exhaling nothing but clean air.

 

I understand what you are saying. I'm glad you are starting to breath again. 

[RakshaTheCat]

I still have hard time knowing, what people talk about when they mention gender. Let's get some research here maybe. In this TED talk, Brené researched that people in USA perceive gender norms like this:

 

Female:

• nice
• thin
• modest
• resources for appearances

 

Male:

• emotional control
• primacy of work
• pursuit of status
• violence

 

For me personally, both options are terrible. I feel neutral towards the first one, and pretty negative towards the second one, but still, neither really is any good for for me. Also, neither of them would be good match as my partner.

 

How do, hmm, strongly gendered people perceive this thing though? Do you identify more with one of those social constructs over the other?

[purpleandgreylife]

On 8/1/2018 at 4:59 PM, Marcin said:

I still have hard time knowing, what people talk about when they mention gender. Let's get some research here maybe. In this TED talk, Brené researched that people in USA perceive gender norms like this:

 

Female:

• nice
• thin
• modest
• resources for appearances

 

Male:

• emotional control
• primacy of work
• pursuit of status
• violence

 

For me personally, both options are terrible. I feel neutral towards the first one, and pretty negative towards the second one, but still, neither really is any good for for me. Also, neither of them would be good match as my partner.

 

How do, hmm, strongly gendered people perceive this thing though? Do you identify more with one of those social constructs over the other?

@Marcin I think you make an interesting point and open a new discussion by including research. To me, this list is extremely culturally biased. For instance, I am African American and there is, in my experience a positive outlook towards those that are thin as well as those that are "thick" (bigger than skinny but not in an unhealthy way) so  I don't associate thin with femaleness. I know many other cultures have views in almost if not direct opposition to the lists given here.

 

I also don't associate nice with femaleness either. Although, I do feel more comfortable around women, even ones I don't like, I have an easier time expressing my feelings and don't feel a need to hide my dislike. I think modest applies only because it is a word that is generally applied to women over men. For instance, watching music videos where the women dancing are in bathing suits/bikinis, there is no real equivalent state of undress for the men.

 

Women are marketed different varieties of clothes that are "sexy" but men are marketed jeans, suits and athletic wear, with no real focus on a "sexy" equivalent to the women. As for the rest of the list, I feel than any generalization about a group is problematic as not every person will ever fit into each expected category of behavior.

 

Also, it's detrimental to those that don't have the stereotypical characterizations and causes people to label them as "odd" or "weird" or derogatory terms for their perceived difference (which is only different because society dictates that people should conform in certain ways).

 

Anyway, this is interesting and I will try to watch that TED Talk.

[RakshaTheCat]

It's definitely a cultural thing, she even pointed that it's just dominant one in the USA.

 

1 hour ago, purpleandgreylife said:

I also don't associate nice with femaleness either. Although, I do feel more comfortable around women, even ones I don't like, I have an easier time expressing my feelings and don't feel a need to hide my dislike.

I wonder if this is also because of those stereotypes, since clearly female stereotype is nicer. And my first reaction is also to follow that stereotype, I will also feel more comfortable around random women than around random dudes. Which is incredibly annoying, because, well, I obviously look like a male, so my first feeling around women is that I'm just an intruder there...

 

Which actually brings good question. What creepy random male like me would have to do to make you feel more comfortable around me?

 

[Jay_]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:16 PM, MiraMeyneth said:

This is a question I honestly can't answer for myself. I generally tend to look quite androgynous minus my long hair. But even though I'm biologically female, I HAAAATE feminine clothing (skirts, etc), when people seem to treat certain topics as exclusively female or male I just can't understand why, and on days when the damn menses hit I feel almost dysphoric towards my "female"  organs. Can't wait for the day I can either get rid of my uterus or donate it to science, or even sell it for some cold, hard cash I can use to buy more cats.

 

I guess I just don't feel connected to either being female or male? I don't connect certain topics as being exclusive to either gender either. I guess for me it would be lack of gender? I don't mind what people call me pronouns-wise, but when people start assuming I like feminine topics just because I was born biologically female, that's when I usually get annoyed.

 

E.G: Because I'm born female, everybody assumes I like kids. This is highly incorrect. The thought of pregnancy is honestly terrifying for me, and I can't stand children. Tiny little demons that scream, drain your sanity, bank account, and destroy your body in the process. If I were to raise a kid, I would be highly resentful and ultimately scar the kid for life. Best to just not go that route and remain childfree. 

Hi, 

I feel you. I've been searching for a conclusion for myself, as I hate menstruation and I can't picture myself with kids (so let's just donate  our uterus for science!!)

Also I like to dress myself in male-assigned clothes, or pull my hair up so it looks like I have a short hair cut with a pony. 

I love talking about video games, cars, things that are not assigned girly in the first way.. 

Considering agender as an option sounds like this could fit for you.

I mean, why do you have to make yourself fit into something? 

I used to say:"there are as much genders in the world as there are humans. "

[Rynn]

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