You just haven't had good sex

[Telecaster68]

Fair enough. It seems unpleasantly mechanical and completely detached from anything to do with emotion or interaction between two people. Is that because you don't see sex as anything to do with interaction beyond the mechanics, or otherwise you'd never get it up? 

[bejjinks]

10 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Fair enough. It seems unpleasantly mechanical and completely detached from anything to do with emotion or interaction between two people. Is that because you don't see sex as anything to do with interaction beyond the mechanics, or otherwise you'd never get it up? 

No, it's because many of the people I had sex with didn't see sex as anything to do with interaction beyond mechanics. I was always unsatisfied and frustrated. I knew something was missing but I couldn't really explain it to people. I would say, "I feel lonely" and people would tell me, "Go home and sleep with your wife" but sleeping with my wife did nothing about my loneliness.

[Telecaster68]

Would it have made a difference to you if they had wanted an emotional connection? 

[Sally]

On 7/18/2018 at 8:44 AM, Telecaster68 said:

So here's what I would mean as good sex:

 

Before - a teasing anticipation and feeling of closeness and knowing you're both wanted and wanting. LIke a treat coming up. As it moves from mundane every day life, enjoying your own arousal and your partners.

 

During - a relaxedness in being that intimate, a kind of thrilled joy in sharing the moment, losing yourself at some points, delighting in how good you can make your partner feel, and sharing their enjoyment of how good they can make you feel, a hunger for each other. Physically, a sensual intensity that at times verges on deliciously unbearable - it's more than rubbing one out, it involves all of both your bodies, mutually and simultaneously, and emotions. The build up from first touches, kissing, exploring, teasing arousal until the final release gives it a kind of narrative and orgasm is a release of that, almost like a musical climax - that same sense of tension and resolution

 

Afterwards - physically almost a warm, relaxed, elated glow, somewhere in the general ballpark of post-exercise or a decent joint, or a good single malt, plus the relief from the resolution of that build up, and a kind of complicity in what you've just shared, and done with each other.

 

Obviously not all sex is like that, but good sex isn't that rare in a decent relationship, and while that description is on the intense end of the range, there's elements of it in most good sexual encounters, in my experience. 

Wow -- I am SO asexual!   All of that just gives me a feeling of nausea plus boredom plus sense of being invaded (being a woman) plus joy that I am no  longer in a situation where I feel that I must please someone else by doing that...stuff.  Just cannot imagine myself into a state where I'd enjoy any of it.  

[bejjinks]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Would it have made a difference to you if they had wanted an emotional connection? 

ABSOLUTELY

[Sweet Potato]

On 7/18/2018 at 5:53 AM, AndrewT said:

How do you have good sex if you are not sexually attracted to someone?

Having an orgasm does not equal good sex (it also does not require another person to achieve)

my (ex) husband didn't get why I would rather do myself than have sex. "I get it done faster on my own" was apparently a confusing answer.  You do you over there. I'll do me in the other room. everyone gets off, everyone is happy, no need to touch each other. I really should have figured out I was ace a lot sooner.

 

Ive been told I just need to have the right kind of sex, then I will be normal/fixed/properly sexual. They have no idea the level of experimenting I did trying to find what worked for me. I am quite convinced that I am not broken, and will never be sexual.

[Someone Else]

If it's a straight guy going with this sad line, then say "You might be gay, you just haven't had good sex."  A straight guy will typucally not say "Oh, yeah, maybe I just need the right man."  That's how it is for many of us asexuals as well.  Many of us just don't need to experiment or "have good sex" to know.  

[bejjinks]

I just realized that those who say "You just haven't had good sex" might not be as sinister as they seem.

 

Some people enjoy dancing and it may be as simple as, "I enjoy dancing and can't understand why other people don't enjoy dancing." So they rack their brain trying to come up with something that makes sense TO THEM that explains why some don't want to dance. Maybe these people enjoy a particular type of dancing so they assume that your statement of "I don't like dancing" only means that the kinds of dancing that you have tried are the same kinds of dancing that they don't like either. So maybe instead of proving themselves as "so good at sex that they can convert you" maybe they are just honestly thinking "you should try it this way, the way I enjoy it."

 

I like the waltz, folk dancing and ballet. I don't like moshing, jitterbug (and other hyper dances), and bump and grind (and other dances that are too sexual). Maybe some of those who say "You just haven't had good sex" are thinking that you don't want to jitterbug but you might enjoy a waltz if you give it a try.

[Snao Cone]

18 hours ago, bejjinks said:

So maybe instead of proving themselves as "so good at sex that they can convert you" maybe they are just honestly thinking "you should try it this way, the way I enjoy it."

Yeah, some people are definitely saying it for this reason. It's still kind of a gauche thing to say, but some people's brains work in ways that make it difficult for them not to think that way and say it out loud.

[anisotrophic]

Pretty sure I manage to hit @Telecaster68's during/after with my partner (and very emotionally connected)... but no matter how good that is, the "before" is absent. 🤷‍♀️

 

It's just how he's wired, I guess? Asexuality is heterogeneous but sometimes it's like this, assuming you include this subset in whatever definitional circle you draw. (Oh look I've rendered myself tautological.)

 

Just last night, "that was great". So I'm like, "so... um... would you be okay with... never doing it?", him "yeah, sorry, it's not going to change my orientation".

 

Ah well. Glad it was pleasant enough!

 

The sushi comparison from @element83 at the start of this thread was a great summary of the phenomenon. 😂

[Karst]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:22 AM, anisotropic said:

Pretty sure I manage to hit @Telecaster68's during/after with my partner (and very emotionally connected)... but no matter how good that is, the "before" is absent. 🤷‍♀️

 

It's just how he's wired, I guess? Asexuality is heterogeneous but sometimes it's like this, assuming you include this subset in whatever definitional circle you draw. (Oh look I've rendered myself tautological.)

 

Just last night, "that was great". So I'm like, "so... um... would you be okay with... never doing it?", him "yeah, sorry, it's not going to change my orientation".

 

Ah well. Glad it was pleasant enough!

 

The sushi comparison from @element83 at the start of this thread was a great summary of the phenomenon. 😂

"That sushi was great, please never try to make sushi for me again!"

[Someone Else]

I've read stories where a few rare asexuals eventually found out that they were demi and had no idea, so it can be complicated, sometimes.  Still, it's bad to pressure someone on any activity after they've firmly said no.  

[Telecaster68]

2 hours ago, Ardoise said:

"That sushi was great, please never try to make sushi for me again!"

Yep. That's what baffles us allosushis.

[ryn2]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:22 AM, anisotropic said:

Just last night, "that was great". So I'm like, "so... um... would you be okay with... never doing it?", him "yeah, sorry, it's not going to change my orientation".

To/for me there’s a difference between enjoying something in the moment and actively missing it (not even to the level of craving it... just feeling a sense of disappointment or loss if it doesn’t happen again) in the future.

 

There are plenty of things I’ve done and enjoyed at the time but that didn’t get added to my pantheon of “things I really like and don’t want to forget to do again.”

 

That’s separate from things I didn’t like enough to compensate for the downside.

[anisotrophic]

12 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

To/for me there’s a difference between enjoying something in the moment and actively missing it (not even to the level of craving it... just feeling a sense of disappointment or loss if it doesn’t happen again) in the future.

 

There are plenty of things I’ve done and enjoyed at the time but that didn’t get added to my pantheon of “things I really like and don’t want to forget to do again.”

 

That’s separate from things I didn’t like enough to compensate for the downside.

 

Agreed. I tend to think of it as pretty natural when contextualized as, "That party was fun, but I'm still not into parties."

[Telecaster68]

Wouldn't it make you more inclined to accept a subsequent invitation to another party from the same people? 

[ryn2]

17 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Wouldn't it make you more inclined to accept a subsequent invitation to another party from the same people? 

If I’d been apprehensive about something about their parties and it hadn’t materialized, maybe slightly?

 

If someone asked me “would you be okay with never going to another party?” the answer would still be yes, though.

[Telecaster68]

But 'fun' isn't an absence of a perceived potential negative, it's the presence of a fairly strong positive. I was thinking this party would have involved you actively having a good time rather than not havinga bad time. 

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

But 'fun' isn't an absence of a perceived potential negative, it's the presence of a fairly strong positive. I was thinking this party would have involved you actively having a good time rather than not havinga bad time. 

I was thinking that - the party was actually enjoyable - as well.

 

I just meant that alone (its being enjoyable) would not change the likelihood of my accepting another invite.  It’s not a thought evolution from “I’m hesitant to accept as I might not have fun” to “that was fun; I’ll accept next time.”

 

But that also wasn’t the original question... the original question was “[given that was fun,] would you be okay with never doing it [again]?”

 

Even if something’s having been enjoyable makes you more likely to accept another opportunity to do it, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not okay with never doing it again.

 

I went on a few fairly rustic dinner cruises locally, years ago. In the moment they ranged from fun to really fun.  If the opportunity presented itself again I might well avail myself of it.  However, if I’m trying to think of something to do next weekend the odds are very high “lake dinner cruise” won’t come to mind, and if you came by and said “are you okay with never taking another lake dinner cruise?” I would (look at you strangely, and then) say sure.

[bejjinks]

 

On 7/26/2018 at 3:19 PM, ryn2 said:

I was thinking that - the party was actually enjoyable - as well.

 

I just meant that alone (its being enjoyable) would not change the likelihood of my accepting another invite.  It’s not a thought evolution from “I’m hesitant to accept as I might not have fun” to “that was fun; I’ll accept next time.”

 

But that also wasn’t the original question... the original question was “[given that was fun,] would you be okay with never doing it [again]?”

 

Even if something’s having been enjoyable makes you more likely to accept another opportunity to do it, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not okay with never doing it again.

 

I went on a few fairly rustic dinner cruises locally, years ago. In the moment they ranged from fun to really fun.  If the opportunity presented itself again I might well avail myself of it.  However, if I’m trying to think of something to do next weekend the odds are very high “lake dinner cruise” won’t come to mind, and if you came by and said “are you okay with never taking another lake dinner cruise?” I would (look at you strangely, and then) say sure.

I think we have to consider who asked the question? Let's look at this from the perspective of the lake dinner cruise organizer. After the lake dinner cruise, you walk up to the organizer and say, "That cruise was fun, would you be okay if I never do that again?" From the organizer's point of view, would that be confusing or offensive? It's not the organizer asking “are you okay with never taking another lake dinner cruise?” The organizer is trying to understand why you asked to never do another cruise even though you enjoyed it. The organizer can't help but wonder if there was something wrong that you're not telling him, some part of the cruise that made you say you never want another one. Please help the organizer understand why you would not want to do another cruise even though you claim that you enjoyed it.

[ryn2]

In this case, though, it was the organizer asking... and the organizer already pretty much knew the answer before even giving voice to the question.  It wasn’t something the attendee volunteered unasked.  It was:

 

attendee - “that was great”

organizer - “so, have you changed your mind on whether or not you’d care if you never did it again?”

attendee - “nope, no change.”

[bejjinks]

25 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In this case, though, it was the organizer asking... and the organizer already pretty much knew the answer before even giving voice to the question.  It wasn’t something the attendee volunteered unasked.  It was:

 

attendee - “that was great”

organizer - “so, have you changed your mind on whether or not you’d care if you never did it again?”

attendee - “nope, no change.”

Okay. So when @Telecaster68 talked about people saying 'I had amazing sushi but I'm really not bothered about ever having sushi again', what he meant was

 

attendee - "that was great"

sushi chef - "so, have you changed your mind (which would be non-sequitur if the attendee never volunteered an opinion "unasked") on whether or not you'd care if you never had sushi again? (Who talks this way?)"

 

Or maybe @Telecaster68 meant

 

attendee- "I had amazing sushi but I'm really not bothered about ever having sushi again."

sushi chef - "Huh, what. It's hard to believe you enjoyed the sushi and now you are telling me that you never want sushi again.

 

So I repeat in paraphrase

 

I think we have to consider who said "never again"? Let's look at this from the perspective of the sushi chef. After the sushi, you walk up to the sushi chef and say, "That sushi was delicious, would you be okay if I never eat sushi again?" From the chef's point of view, would that be confusing or offensive? The chef is trying to understand why you say never again even though you enjoyed it. The chef can't help but wonder if there was something wrong that you're not telling him, some part of the sushi that made you say never again. Please help the chef understand why you would not want to eat sushi even though you claim that you enjoyed it.

 

I'm trying to encourage some empathy for someone else's point of view. Yes it is irritating to us asexuals when someone tells us, "You just haven't had good sex". But it can also be baffling to sexuals when someone tells them, "I really enjoyed sex but I'm really not bothered about ever having sex again." Let's all help each other understand.

 

[ryn2]

Sorry, I was quoting and responding to anisotropic’s post about their partner (and then discussing it with tele), not going all the way back to the early sushi posts.  That’s why we were talking about going to parties; it was the example of feeling the same way anisotropic supplied.

[bejjinks]

okay

[InariYana]

I could reply, "well, tried and tested, many times, in various ways, I'm still ace". 

 

Having sex never made me crave more sex, ever. I feel the same about funfairs  If someone I like wants to take me to an amusement park, I'll go, I'll enjoy some rides, some - I'll never even think of trying, some I've tried in the past and they were horrible... soon it all becomes too much in some way and I don't want to go again anytime soon. I could still say overall I enjoyed myself, the company especially, also the drinks and candy floss, bumper cars, but most rides - no, thanks, gosh, not my thing. 

Also, I don't have this "Ohhh, amusement park! Let's go! Yay!" in me, ever  I'd just prefer eating candy floss while sitting at the beach, without going to a funfair at all.  

 

[Telecaster68]

I'm coming to the conclusion this is semantics. The asexualish end is just describing an enjoyment that isn't anywhere close to the intensity of the enjoyment I think most sexuals get from sex. 

[ryn2]

It could be that, but I’ve also had absolutely fabulous experiences that I’m (very glad to have done, but) fine not repeating.

 

I was thinking about this last night.  For me, a great experience is kind of like a crush.   If I do it and love it, I want to do it again immediately.  Right away.  The next meal.  The next day.  Even instantly.

 

Usually there’s a reason that would get shot down, and/or no one (in my circle) but me feels that way.

 

Once I make it past that initial period where I want to do it again so badly, my interest cools and I often don’t care if I get to do it again ever.  Out of sight, out of mind.

 

I can’t speak to sex in particular because it’s been so long but in general this is at least partly because I always feel like I rushed through the awesome thing.  I want to experience it again when I feel safer being more present.

[Telecaster68]

4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Once I make it past that initial period where I want to do it again so badly, my interest cools and I often don’t care if I get to do it again ever.

Oh that would be another difference then. I think for most sexuals, rather than interest cooling, it builds. Particularly in a relationship because there's a kind of external cue there, in the shape of your partner, who's a living reminder of the delights you could be sharing.

 

6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

 I want to experience it again when I feel safer being more present.

That kind of things would put off anyone. It's one of the reasons I don't want sex with my (presumably soon-to-be-ex) wife - quite apart from her not desiring sex/me, I don't feel remotely emotionally safe with her. At all.

[ryn2]

I wasn’t speaking to sex in particular, as I don’t recall whether or not I felt that way early in my present/past relationships, but I definitely feel that way about many other things I enjoy doing.

 

That said, I do not enjoy being/feeling emotionally vulnerable in general.  In the moment I feel overwhelmed, and afterwards I regret having let my guard down.  I am generally still self-aware enough while it’s happening to know I will regret it later, but feel powerless to stop it, and that makes me like it even less.  It also makes me proactively dread situations where this scenario will likely unfold.

 

I get the sense that you (tele) derive a good portion of your normal enjoyment of sex from the opportunity to experience both your own and someone else’s emotional vulnerability.  In that case our experiences definitely would differ, as experiencing emotional vulnerability is way up there on my list of least favorite things.

 

That’s not partner-specific for me.  It’s just something I find generally unpleasant, even if the people/person I’m sharing an experience with are people I trust and/or love.

 

I don’t remember sex as being a place where I felt particularly emotionally vulnerable, though.  Physical vulnerability isn’t tied (or, if it is, is inversely related) to emotional vulnerability for me.

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

The asexualish end is just describing an enjoyment that isn't anywhere close to the intensity of the enjoyment I think most sexuals get from sex.

Are there other things in life you enjoy as much as (or more than) sex, even in a way that’s qualitatively different, or is sex the penultimate experience for you?

 

Is some of your enjoyment related to how it came to be a way you - “rose above” isn’t quite the right phrase, but maybe - were able to escape the unpleasant aspects of your family-of-origin experience?