is grey-asexuality sexual or asexual?

[PixleyDust✨]

57 minutes ago, koreeann said:

Some people who define themselves as graysexuals aren't even sure they know what sexual attraction is or can't distinguish it from other types of attraction. So for them to be "forced" into a "sexual" category can be very confusing and is not true to their feelings/experiences. 

Oh god do I feel this. Like, when I was 18, I honestly never felt any sexual attraction to anyone whatsoever, so I identified as asexual. But as I got a little bit older, I noticed that I did get these little pangs of attraction from time to time towards men, or at least, masculine presenting people. But I still wasn’t comfortable with actually acting these   feelings out, like AT ALL.

 

But I did need to acknowledge that I felt something, even if I felt it strongly in my fantasies, because it was really weak in reality.

 

I’ve honestly proposed activity-based attraction for determining what I’m feeling is platonic, familial, or romantic, since they can all feel kind of similar sometimes. Especially if you’re also aro and have yet to actually experience romantic attraction in the first place. 

[Sally]

Nobody's "forced" into a category.  If you feel like you are, then you're paying too much attention to what other people say.  

[Ammy]

I have a question.

 

If Gray-A and/or demisexuality don't count as asexual, then why does the asexual pride flag include sexuality, gray/demi and asexuality as a spectrum?

 

Is this just a case of the same term being used for two different meanings? As in, asexuality spectrum, vs. being actually completely asexual?

 

I think it's probably important to make the distinction. I've never gotten the feeling that Gray-A's were being "left out" of the community, at least not on here. It seemed pretty all-encompassing and welcoming to me.

 

@ryn2 , you may not necessarily "fit" as fully sexual nor fully asexual, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. People have brought up Gray-A and demisexuality, there's nothing inherently wrong nor unacceptable about it.

Maybe some people have been a bit more blunt and may come across as a little harsh depending on your point of view, but I don't think their intention was to make you feel like you don't fit in. I might have only been here for a month, but I've really never gotten the impression that Gray-As or demisexuals were rejected or anything. They're all more than welcome in the community.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about accepting yourself for who you are ❤️

[Homer]

4 hours ago, Dande said:

Because Asexuality is a spectrum that encompasses:   Demi- Grey- and Asexuality.  

Demi and grey folks do experience sexual attraction. These people are not asexual.

[Sally]

Asexuals do not experience any desire to have sex with other people.   That's the definition of asexuality.  If you sometimes do desire to have sex with someone, you're not asexual.  

[TheAP]

I think it doesn't matter whether grey-asexuals count as asexual or not. They're still part of the community. That's why they're included in the flag. So, @ryn2, you do fit in here, whether you are "fully" asexual or not. 

[ryn2]

I’m just in a bit of an awkward spot.  I came out as ace to my spouse after he proposed divorce in January, but have since learned that my original “kind of ace” statements to my friends over the past few years were more accurate.  Now it looks to my spouse as though I’m backtracking in an attempt to get him to stay and, for all intents and purposes, I’m highly like to be ace for him forevermore anyway.

[koreeann]

8 hours ago, Sally said:

Asexuals do not experience any desire to have sex with other people.   That's the definition of asexuality.  If you sometimes do desire to have sex with someone, you're not asexual.  

Again, I would like to state that the most commonly held definition of asexuality is a lack of experience of sexual attraction, which is different from sexual arousal, sexual desire, and sexual behavior. Being sexually attracted to someone is not the same thing as a desire for sex (either with other people or not). I can desire to have sex with someone and still NOT find them sexually attractive. 

[Gloomy]

IMO that’s like asking if gray is white or black. I think I’m probably gray and while I may not technically be asexual, I don’t think I fit in with sexuals either.

[koreeann]

6 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

IMO that’s like asking if gray is white or black. I think I’m probably gray and while I may not technically be asexual, I don’t think I fit in with sexuals either.

Hahahaha that's a hilarious analogy  

 

As someone who is aesthetically attracted to silver foxes, I would like to add my two cents to further the comparison: Depending on the person, gray hairs can be a very light gray which looks almost white OR it can be a very dark gray which looks almost black. Saying that an almost black hair should be called "white" because it has a hint of whiteness in it is like saying a graysexual who very rarely experiences sexual attraction should be called "sexual". Technically, it is NOT a totally black hair, but it's a whole lot closer to being a black hair than it is to being a white one. So it fits on the black/darker side of the color spectrum (just like graysexuality can fit on the asexual side of sexual orientation)

[noparlpf]

Here is a five-point scale: 1 2 3 4 5

Is 3 1 or 5? What do you think?

 

I hope this illustrates how the OP's question is not a very useful way to approach thinking about this.

 

Edit:

2 hours ago, Gloomy said:

IMO that’s like asking if gray is white or black. I think I’m probably gray and while I may not technically be asexual, I don’t think I fit in with sexuals either.

Well, that's what I get for posting before getting to the last page lol.

I agree; I don't fit in with the straights at all and personally I identify much more with asexual than straight. But the asexuals don't seem to want us either because we're "not ace enough."

[ryn2]

52 minutes ago, noparlpf said:

Here is a five-point scale: 1 2 3 4 5

Is 3 1 or 5? What do you think?

 

I hope this illustrates how the OP's question is not a very useful way to approach thinking about this.

Well, I think that’s the question... what’s on the x axis, and what are its endpoints?

 

If it’s not a continuum, and grey and ace are single data points, then grey would obviously be neither ace not sexual... but I’m used to seeing it described as a continuum.

[Rynn]

14 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

If it’s not a continuum, and grey and ace are single data points, then grey would obviously be neither ace not sexual... but I’m used to seeing it described as a continuum.

I think people are arguing that asexual is a single point at the very end of the continuum. So greysexual and sexual are on a continuum, but asexual is a single data point. I think that's what Homer and CBC were trying to say.

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, Laurann said:

I think people are arguing that asexual is a single point at the very end of the continuum. So greysexual and sexual are on a continuum, but asexual is a single data point. I think that's what Homer and CBC were trying to say.

That’s definitely one viewpoint, but I also see (I think Dande posted it here, but is certainly not alone) others saying asexuality is the end portion of the spectrum and encompasses demi and grey.

 

Now we have a third viewpoint:  that each is wholly separate.

[Alejandrogynous]

On 7/7/2018 at 7:47 AM, ryn2 said:

I’m just in a bit of an awkward spot.  I came out as ace to my spouse after he proposed divorce in January, but have since learned that my original “kind of ace” statements to my friends over the past few years were more accurate.  Now it looks to my spouse as though I’m backtracking in an attempt to get him to stay and, for all intents and purposes, I’m highly like to be ace for him forevermore anyway.

Not to give advice unsolicited, but it sounds like you might want to stop trying to figure out the exact spot you fit in in a mess of labels, and start figuring out where you want to stand in regards to your husband. The focus should be on how you feel, not on what combination of labels and other people's feelings you can glue together to make your feelings seem justified to him. 

 

If he's making assumptions about you or trying to catch you in a lie based on what he's read, you might want to remind him that labels are meant to be broad categories and you are a human being who will never be able to fit 100% perfectly into any one word. You ID as ace, or gray, or whatever, because it's the closest thing you have to express your experience, not because that label sums up every piece and nuance of who you are. People are complex. Some would call me grey or sexual because I masturbate, but I choose to ID as asexual because I have no desire to have sex with anyone else ever, and that's what I want to get across to people. The rest, while interesting for me to explore and understand myself better, is beside the point when it comes to how I interact with anyone else.

[noparlpf]

32 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

That’s definitely one viewpoint, but I also see (I think Dande posted it here, but is certainly not alone) others saying asexuality is the end portion of the spectrum and encompasses demi and grey.

 

Now we have a third viewpoint:  that each is wholly separate.

Well, I used to believe that "asexual" could encompass a range of experiences at that end of the spectrum as well as being a specific term for that endpoint of the spectrum, partially because I identified as asexual and then grey asexual for a while before demisexual. For me the experience of attraction is so rare (think like five years in between each time) and unpredictable that most of the time I might as well be asexual and in general I fit in better with and identify more with asexuals. If 1 is people who enjoy casual sex or one night stands, most people are like a 4-6, and 10 is asexual, I'd be like a 9. But I've been seeing so many asexuals say that the word only refers to that specific endpoint of the spectrum and that 1 through 9 might as well be in the same group, that yes, the grey area might as well be a wholly separate category. Because I know I don't fit in with normal straight culture, so if I don't fit in with the asexual community either I've already been put in a third category by default. 

[Alejandrogynous]

5 hours ago, noparlpf said:

If 1 is people who enjoy casual sex or one night stands, most people are like a 4-6, and 10 is asexual, I'd be like a 9. But I've been seeing so many asexuals say that the word only refers to that specific endpoint of the spectrum and that 1 through 9 might as well be in the same group, that yes, the grey area might as well be a wholly separate category. Because I know I don't fit in with normal straight culture, so if I don't fit in with the asexual community either I've already been put in a third category by default. 

I'm of the camp that grey is sexual rather than asexual, however I still wouldn't say that 1-9 are all the same. A 9, 8, or even a 7 could very well relate more to the asexual experience than a 'typical' sexual one, and that's why it IS so important to have space for the grey area in asexual communities. My issues comes in when people who are grey claim that it's part of asexuality, to the point where it looks to onlookers like asexual and grey are the same thing and that when I say "I am asexual", it means that I still like sex sometimes, or that I'll still want it if I love someone enough. That's why, even though the grey/demi experience can be so close to asexuality and it's great we're all able to have a community together, we can't be lumped together as the same thing. Greysexuality is 'maybe', asexuality is 'never', and that's a very important distinction. 

[Sally]

8 hours ago, koreeann said:

 I can desire to have sex with someone and still NOT find them sexually attractive. 

I cannot imagine how that could be possible.  If you want to have sex with a specific person, you are sexually attracted to that specific person.  

[Dande]

I don't know about anyone else......but I find that this thread has become way more antagonistic than a "helpful" post ought to be.   

End point:   Only you can decide where you fit.....and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

 

I think this thread ought to be closed from posting.  Just my opinion.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, koreeann said:

Again, I would like to state that the most commonly held definition of asexuality is a lack of experience of sexual attraction, which is different from sexual arousal, sexual desire, and sexual behavior. Being sexually attracted to someone is not the same thing as a desire for sex (either with other people or not). I can desire to have sex with someone and still NOT find them sexually attractive. 

And I ask again, how are you defining 'sexual attraction'? Because AVEN (in the General FAQ) defines it as the desire for sexual contact with someone else, and that is accurate when it comes to defining sexual orientation: it's about desiring partnered sex with other people to varying degrees under varying circumstances.

 

But again, could you explain for all the sexual people here what this 'feeling' is that we apparently feel that makes us different from asexuals but has nothing to do with the fact that we sometimes desire partnered sexual intimacy with other people?

 

 

 

[anisotrophic]

2 hours ago, Sally said:

I cannot imagine how that could be possible.  If you want to have sex with a specific person, you are sexually attracted to that specific person.  

The evidence seems to be that many aces are married. Bogaert's 2004 paper found 33% were married, vs 64% of sexuals. This demographic might be underrepresented on AVEN for a variety of factors.

 

But they exist, and so it's fair to point out why statements like this one may be concerning. The way I'm reading this, it seems to set up a lose-lose scenario for an ace in a mixed relationship -- they can choose between "finding other motives for sex with their partner" and "asexual identity".

 

6 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

You ID as ace, or gray, or whatever, because it's the closest thing you have to express your experience, not because that labels sums up every piece and nuance of who you are. People are complex. Some would call me grey or sexual because I masturbate, but I choose to ID as asexual because I have no desire to have sex with anyone else ever, and that's what I want to get across to people.

This is what makes sense to me -- an identity or label is useful in that sets expectations for others. "Asexual" means others should not expect the individual will ever feel sexual attraction for another person.

 

23 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I have my spouse telling me what I think and feel (because he’s read up on asexuals)

I've read a lot too -- not just blogs -- I mean books and original research. And the things I've read indicate that asexuality is very heterogeneous, combining demographics as different as "sex-averse aromantic libidoist autochorissexual" and "sex-indifferent romantic with a complete absence of sexual thoughts and fantasies". So, like, why the heck does anyone think they know what an asexual thinks and feels?!

Tangentially, someone close to me came out (and now I have more than one reason for being here). "My partner doesn't feel 100% ace," I said to them. "Oh," they responded, "Nobody does."

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Dande said:

I think this thread ought to be closed from posting.  Just my opinion.

No one is telling anyone else how they can identify though, this is a discussion about a label itself and doesn't disqualify anyone from identifying however they wish

 

It is very frustrating for sexual and aces alike though when we're reading people saying that grey is asexual, then what they describe as grey is all just variations of normal sexuality. So all of a sudden at least like 40% of the population is grey, based on the definitions of grey being used here, and if grey is asexual then at least 40% of the population is asexual... And now suddenly the asexuals who have no desire to connect sexually with others, ever, are in the vast minority in their own frikken label Y_Y

 

And also, it's actually very offensive for sexual people because pretty much you're all saying that to be sexual and not ace you have to experience an attraction to people's appearance that makes you drawn to having sex with them and that's it, everyone else is gray asexual or demi or some other kind of ace. When many of us don't experience that 'sexual attraction to appearance', and there is actually a lot more to what drives us sexually than something as basic as ''me see attractive naked man me want sex, ugg!!''

 

What is so often described as grey-asexual on AVEN is actually very normal and common variations of how real sexual people think and feel and behave, and it's just misconceptions about sexual people (misconceptions which are perpetuated right throughout the ace community) that cause people here to think that these variations are so rare and uncommon that they must indicate some type of ace. Whereas actually the 'hypersexual' appearance-based stereotypes of sexuals portrayed in the media is what's less common among real people.

[Philip027]

12 hours ago, koreeann said:

I can desire to have sex with someone and still NOT find them sexually attractive. 

I would sure like to know what you think being sexually attracted to someone even means, if it doesn't mean desiring sex with them on at least some level.

[Alejandrogynous]

3 hours ago, Dande said:

I don't know about anyone else......but I find that this thread has become way more antagonistic than a "helpful" post ought to be.   

End point:   Only you can decide where you fit.....and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

 

I think this thread ought to be closed from posting.  Just my opinion.

If you think this thread is antagonistic, I recommend you never go into the Hot Box. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, anisotropic said:

The evidence seems to be that many aces are married.

I just have to point out that yes many married aces do have sex, lots of aces have sex for varying reasons. But there is a difference between having sex to try to make your partner happy/to have a baby/to try to teach yourself to want it/to try 'look normal', and actively having sex with someone else specifically because you desire the sexual gratification that partnered sex will bring you. The latter is a form of regular sexuality, not asexuality, even if it's only under 'specific circumstances' that you desire that partnered sex (and for any regular sexual person, it's only under specific circumstances that they desire partnered sex too. No sexual person desires sex with everyone 24/7).

[noparlpf]

18 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I'm of the camp that grey is sexual rather than asexual, however I still wouldn't say that 1-9 are all the same. A 9, 8, or even a 7 could very well relate more to the asexual experience than a 'typical' sexual one, and that's why it IS so important to have space for the grey area in asexual communities. My issues comes in when people who are grey claim that it's part of asexuality, to the point where it looks to onlookers like asexual and grey are the same thing and that when I say "I am asexual", it means that I still like sex sometimes, or that I'll still want it if I love someone enough. That's why, even though the grey/demi experience can be so close to asexuality and it's great we're all able to have a community together, we can't be lumped together as the same thing. Greysexuality is 'maybe', asexuality is 'never', and that's a very important distinction. 

 

I don't disagree, I just don't see why every time somebody shows up to talk about grey experiences somebody has to jump in to point that out when nobody actually said they were the same thing, just that there are some shared experiences. 

 

Also find it funny that the argument is always basically "we have to exclude [other marginalised group] so the cishets might take us more seriously" because that's literally the same thing all the other exclusionary types say. 

 

15 hours ago, Sally said:

I cannot imagine how that could be possible.  If you want to have sex with a specific person, you are sexually attracted to that specific person.  

Do you think sex workers are attracted to every client? 

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, noparlpf said:

Do you think sex workers are attracted to every client? 

I’m thinking this is a different case/different meaning of “want”?   When people use “desire for partnered sex” in the definition of (a)sexuality I understand that to mean an intrinsic desire... they want sex as its own end, not as a means to something.

 

Wanting to have sex to make a partner happy (akin to cooking a partner’s favorite meal that’s just okay to the cook, or cleaning a partner’s house while the partner is traveling so the partner won’t have to come home to dust and heaps of mail) is wanting it as a means to something.  Sex work is wanting to have sex/engage in sexual activities to earn an income.

 

Sex workers want to have sex (for work, at least; what they want and do in their relationships would depend on their orientation) like I want to create project schedules and PowerPoint slides.

 

It’s probably fair to speculate that some sex workers actually go into the business because they love having sex, sure, but I’ve known straight sex workers who do homosexual sex work because it sells and there are at least a couple of ace/grey past sex workers active on AVEN.  A job’s a job.

[Pramana]

On 7/6/2018 at 7:24 PM, anisotropic said:

This was the first time I'd seen a hypothesis that made me see demisexuality as potentially describing a reasonably "ace" phenomenon: one of sexual fluidity within an asexual orientation, rather than an oddly special descriptor for very normal human behavior.

The research on sexual fluidity is pretty well-established and influential, although so far nobody has applied it to asexuality. But it seems likely that if heterosexuals and homosexuals can experience sexual fluidity, then asexuals could as well. This fits with some of the stories that I've read from demisexuals who report lacking sex/gender-based attractions and thus essentially being asexual outside of romantic/emotional attachments.

That said, it's also pretty common for someone to experience sex/gender-based attractions, but not feel like having sex until they're well into a relationship, or dislike having sex with people they don't know. Other stories I've read suggest that some people identify as demisexual for those reasons.

 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:26 PM, koreeann said:

This is a great response post! It confirms what a lot of empirical research on the subject of asexuality has explored.

 

I think greysexual individuals sometimes like to identify as being on the asexual spectrum because they more closely align with asexuality than sexuality.

Alfred Kinsey and Micheal Storms both modelled sexual orientations along spectrums and modelled each sexual orientation as occupying space along that spectrum. So heterosexuality encompasses both people who are 100% heterosexual and people who are mostly heterosexual, etc. I read a recent publication by a pair of Chinese researchers who suggest that perhaps asexuality is better characterized as a lack or a low degree of sexual attraction, because they found that a percentage of self-identified asexuals who also scored above the cutoff on the Asexuality Identification Scale still reported a low degree of sexual attraction on a Likert scale.

Meanwhile, AVEN founders David Jay and Nat Titman initially employed asexuality as an umbrella term. When developing the AVEN triangle symbol, Jay modelled asexuality as occupying the bottom part of a scale where sexual intensity became too low to motivate sexual interaction, so not necessarily a complete lack of sexual intensity. Likewise, when Titman wrote AVEN's Big FAQ, he worked using a definition of asexuality as a lack or a low degree of sexual attraction, or insufficient sex drive to act on attractions that one did experience. And while a term for demisexuality didn't exist at this time, the FAQ recognized that people might move back and forth between states of asexuality and sexuality.

[Pramana]

On 7/7/2018 at 11:28 AM, koreeann said:

Again, I would like to state that the most commonly held definition of asexuality is a lack of experience of sexual attraction, which is different from sexual arousal, sexual desire, and sexual behavior. Being sexually attracted to someone is not the same thing as a desire for sex (either with other people or not). I can desire to have sex with someone and still NOT find them sexually attractive. 

Anthony Bogaert follows those distinctions when conducting research on asexuality. The core idea is that sexual orientations are grounded in the experience of a particular psychological state, namely sexually attraction, which is formalized as sexual desires/feelings for other people. The traditional view, at least, is that sex/gender-based attractions ground sexual orientation, and then people likely have more specific attractions within that orientation.

Sexual attraction is theorized as the instinctual mechanism that mammals have evolved to motivate sexual interaction with reproductively advantageous targets. However, because the human mind is so complex, it is possible for people to develop sexual interests outside their orientation. Bogaert provides one example in his book (a gay man who enjoyed some aspects of sex with women, suggesting that sexual pleasure can to some extent be separated from sexual attraction). I also followed up with Bogaert about how this applies to asexuals. He responded that he thought it was possible that some asexuals could actively desire partnered sex, despite not feeling sexually connected to their partners, although specific factors would have to be in place.

Overall, the technical point is that provided sexual orientations are interpreted as psychological constructs, then you're potentially going to have people who develop action preferences contrary to their orientation.

[Sally]

23 hours ago, anisotropic said:

The evidence seems to be that many aces are married. Bogaert's 2004 paper found 33% were married, vs 64% of sexuals. This demographic might be underrepresented on AVEN for a variety of factors.

 

But they exist, and so it's fair to point out why statements like this one may be concerning. The way I'm reading this, it seems to set up a lose-lose scenario for an ace in a mixed relationship -- they can choose between "finding other motives for sex with their partner" and "asexual identity".

 

I was married, and after that I had a longterm sexual partnership.  The statement I made is not terribly concerning.  I was not interested in having sex and it wasn't pleasurable to me.  I had it because my partners wanted it, and I wanted to please them.  At the time, I didn't know about "asexuality".  However, I knew I didn't like sex,  and I both found another motive for sex, and still recognized I didn't want it for itself.   Many of us have been in the same situation.  We're not irreparably damaged by that.