is grey-asexuality sexual or asexual?

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Marlow1 said:

I have aphantasia (I am blind in my minds eye).

I have a form of this (which is especially weird considering what I just said in my previous post), however I am able to dream so I know I do not have full aphantasia. But anyway, when I try to 'see' anything in my mind, there is only blackness and grey splodges, my 'thoughts' consist of impressions of touch and 'sound', like a scene is being whispered to me from someone who has no voice, and I can 'feel' the emotions of what would be happening if I could see that scene. But visually, inside my mind, I am completely blind. I always thought everyone experienced this total blackness so would get super annoyed at 'visualization' exercises and things because they'd be like ''you are walking down stairs'' and it always seemed so pointless because everything is just black so I may as well be standing in a room with my eyes closed and I assumed everyone felt that way about it  It wasn't until I first read about a process called Image Streaming that I discovered other people actually 'see' things in their mind Y_Y I've read of people with this kind of partial aphantasia being able to re-teach themselves to see through the Image Streaming process, but I always get disheartened the moment I close my eyes and all I see is blackness :c

 

Sorry that was totally off-topic people, just had to throw in my two cents there with regards to being blind in the minds eye!

[ryn2]

I took the aphantasia test to better understand what they were assessing and I’m at the far opposite end of the spectrum.

[Snao Cone]

I don't need to take a test to know I'm quite the opposite of aphantasia, so I find it really interesting to contemplate that perception of reality.

[Éadweard]

Question: is grey-asexuality sexual or asexual?

 

Answer: Yes. 

[ryn2]

5 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

I don't need to take a test to know I'm quite the opposite of aphantasia, so I find it really interesting to contemplate that perception of reality.

I was just surprised how far opposite it I was.

[Marlow1]

19 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

I have a form of this (which is especially weird considering what I just said in my previous post), however I am able to dream so I know I do not have full aphantasia. But anyway, when I try to 'see' anything in my mind, there is only blackness and grey splodges, my 'thoughts' consist of impressions of touch and 'sound', like a scene is being whispered to me from someone who has no voice, and I can 'feel' the emotions of what would be happening if I could see that scene. But visually, inside my mind, I am completely blind. I always thought everyone experienced this total blackness so would get super annoyed at 'visualization' exercises and things because they'd be like ''you are walking down stairs'' and it always seemed so pointless because everything is just black so I may as well be standing in a room with my eyes closed and I assumed everyone felt that way about it  It wasn't until I first read about a process called Image Streaming that I discovered other people actually 'see' things in their mind Y_Y I've read of people with this kind of partial aphantasia being able to re-teach themselves to see through the Image Streaming process, but I always get disheartened the moment I close my eyes and all I see is blackness :c

 

Sorry that was totally off-topic people, just had to throw in my two cents there with regards to being blind in the minds eye!

Your shares often help me understand myself better. 

 

Folk are shocked when I say that I have no visuals in my minds eye. They are astounded when I say that I have no voice or other sounds. We rarely get onto the fact that I cannot taste smell feel etc , nor relive events in my minds eye etc. they usually say ' how do you think then?'

 

LOL, I can't answer that, because I pretty much don't understand how others think, but I am trying to learn

 

You have mentioned the feelings of your thoughts. I don't get that either. What I do get is the memory and from the memory I can have a feeling about that. So say I experienced a really happy day with my partner, I will remember it as facts, perhaps quit detailed, but all as facts. I won't relive the emotions etc but I will remember that I was really happy and get a feeling about that. I will remember I was happy and be happy that I was happy, if that makes sense

 

My partner often says, did you think about me whist I was out? I say of course I did. How did that make you feel? I say I missed you. She says yes, but how did you feel about it? I repeat, I missed you

 

What more can I say. I hate it when she is not here and I become alive when she is here and to me that is a deep love. But she says that when I am not with her she has thousands of vivid memories with feelings both good and bad about everything. She says she has an array of thoughts and feelings about us all the time when she is with me  and when she is not with me

 

My partner is a physical empath, she feels the emotions and especially the suffering of other people in her body and frequently needs time alone to deal with the high levels of stimuli around her, particularly other peoples stress and sadness. I am an empath too but in a very different way. If I see somebody needs help I help, pretty much at the same level as my partner, but I am over it far quicker. I come home and I am fine but she will complain that she is reliving the events, it can take her hours to feel OK with things, I can easily wind down and just accept things

 

I am bringing this up because firstly Total Aphantasia can sound like we don't have feelings for others when the actual opposite is true, I for one have a very compassionate way with me, it just does not floor me like it can my partner. 

 

I cannot dwell on things, what's done is done, I say frequently. But in regards to the present moment I always do what I feel is best at that time and I enjoy being sociable, and folk enjoy my company etc

 

It is hard to fathom this what you are describing but as you share I get the impression that feelings wise you are more tuned in than I am, that you reexperience your experience in your minds eye, through feelings, similar I guess to some of what my partner describes (She is not Asexual, Grey, Demi or anything like that, she more at the other end, hyper, if anything lol

 

I definately do not reexperiencing anything. Things from the past do not come into the now, they feel like they are in the past. But I can get feelings about the memories, and think things like, by golly that day was great, I was really happy, etc and I can feel things about it all and enjoy my feelings from that. There is no voice though, I just know, and my body, face etc will express it, especially if I am telling somebody else

 

I think maybe I am warbling now, but there is a difference between what you are describing and what I experience. You do actually sound more like my partner, regarding the emotions you feel etc, and that is all I can really relate to when I read what you are saying. But the difference is my partner has a very vivid minds eye, so much so that she says she wishes she could not see certain things. She tries to block stimuli. In my case I feel I miss a lot of what is going on around me and so that I can remain in tune with the things I care about I have to focus at the time and I have to relive them in reality, not just in my mind

 

Is this making sense? I am having trouble at this stage explaining things properly. But in brief my partner that has a vivid minds eye has much feeling during events and afterwards. Me I get feelings in the present, and feelings about my memories. What I describe sounds like locked in syndrome but in fact the Aphantasia makes me more tuned in in the present moment, and more aware in some ways. Out of everybody in my family I am the most relied upon by all of my siblings and so on. My partner she is learning all about the Aphantasia, Demisexual stuff etc and says as she learns she understands south about things that have gone on for is in the past all so much better now. She also says we are both at the far ends of the spectrums, which is amazing in itself, but what is even more amazing is the way we are so different but so very much alike too!!

[ryn2]

It’s always fascinating (to me) to learn more about how other people experience their inner and outer world.

[Marlow1]

22 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I was just surprised how far opposite it I was.

I don't really undestand why somebody with high levels of Phantasia would also meet the criteria of the Asexual Spectrum. My experience has definately shown my lack of minds eye plays a massive role in my lack of interesting ( I am Demisexual now, but I suspect you already have the basics of my story)

 

My partner has Hyperphantasia and a very vivid mind regarding sexual stuff, attraction and so, she definately does not fit on the Asexual Spectrum

 

But she does have certain repulsions, so strong that they come across as phobic. And she is very commited to remaining faithful to me. She has a base 1 rule and removes herself from any situation straight away if she thinks a guy might be coming on to her. And that even when she does not fancy the guy at all. She says that she gets away from any guy that makes a pass, she won't take a risk with anybody

 

When we talk it is like we see the world opposite from each other. I don't even think about being attracted to folk or them being attracted to me, it just does not enter my head. But with my partners over active mind she thinks about this kind of stuff a lot. She gets frustrated that I don't have a clue what she is going on about and gets depressed if she thinks she has been attracted to somebody ( this is a long story in and of itself, will share another time)

 

My point here right now is in my world right now I associate hyperphantasia with strong attraction, because that is what I see with my partner, and definately does not happen for me. But you and other folk are saying that you are at the other end on the aphantasia scale, but are also on the spectrum. I can't wrap my head around that other than to say perhaps beyond fantasy there is another mechanism that is at play that we here don't know about.

 

As I have mentioned my partner says her mind is vivid, she gets attracted, she actively controls it, and for the life of her cannot understand me when I say I don't have to control it, it just does not happen for me. At this point I am meaning, in the thinking, there might be another mechanism that we don't yet know about, ie, making it so that certain folk with high levels of Phantadia still don't get attracted as opposed to having to control it as my partner describes. This is just a hunch!!!

 

We might discover what it is though, a very lot of things have emerged at AVEN over the last few years. And I think you are right to look into the Aphantasia Research because there are a lot of clues associated with all this attraction stuff in their literature too. The more my partner and I have studied the spectrum for Phantasia, along with the spectrums discussed here at AVEN the more we have started to understand each other a lot better, and can communicate a lot better than we could before we had learned about these things

[Dande]

On 7/2/2018 at 1:19 PM, InariYana said:

As a grey myself, I'd say "sexual" (I have experienced sexual attraction) but there needs to be more said after that, because I'm miles away from an average sexual person and much closer to being asexual. I could happily live without sex, I don't actively seek out partnered sex (I don't see the point, at all) and my ideal romantic relationship would be sexless, so that's totally unlike what an average sexual person wants. I could say I'm "almost asexual" and that would probably make more sense than me saying "I'm sexual".   

I'm a grey as well.....and I find this definition is perfect for me.   For me, I consider grey on the asexual spectrum.    I don't engage in sexuality like others do --- at all.   And if the slightest hint of sexuality is there and IF I AM WILLING to pick up on it,  that only happens after a DEEP AND SERIOUS BOND with THAT person.    And even then, I will 9 times out of 10 turn asexual on them.    

So, I'm probably asexual with grey-romantic.  Very DARK GREY.      I just don't get the sexual attraction thing at ALL.   Now romance, I get the concept of it......engaging in it, ehhhh. Not so much.  But much more potential in romantic than sexuality.

[Ceebs]

Not asexual. If you desire sex with other people -- hell, even if it's one person in your entire lifetime -- you're not asexual. Obviously someone who's only ever felt sexual desire for one person is someone who experiences less sexual interest than average, but that doesn't make them ace.

[Homer]

15 hours ago, Dande said:

For me, I consider grey on the asexual spectrum. 

Why? What makes you say that?

[ryn2]

17 hours ago, Marlow1 said:

My partner has Hyperphantasia and a very vivid mind regarding sexual stuff

Same here but vivid mental imagery does not necessarily result in sexual attraction to others.

[ryn2]

I’ve seen a number of people say that, @Homer, hence the original question.

 

I’m romantic grey-a and while I don’t find I have much in common relationship-experience wise with aro aces my relationship challenges align very well with those of many romantic aces.

[Rynn]

Is bisexuality gay or straight?

 

Do you see how that question doesn't work?

 

Just like bisexuality, grey-sexuality is its own thing.

 

I do think we need to be careful with the 'Grey-sexuals are not asexual!!'- thing. Just like it's not fair to call bi people 'not gay enough' and push them out of gay communities, it's not fair to push grey-asexual people out of this community when they feel they don't really belong anywhere else either.

 

As for whether 'asexual' or 'asexual spectrum' should be used as an umbrella term; I don't know, there isn't a 'gay spectrum' either. Would bisexuals be on the gay spectrum if it existed? Or would they still want to form their own specific identity and community? Maybe the grey-sexual community just has yet to spring up, and until then anyone on the 'ace spectrum' can belong here for the time being?

On the other hand, I'm (sort of) bi and at times I'll say things like 'I'm too gay for this shit' or say I have 'gay moments', but if someone asked me what my orientation was I would never say I'm gay, because that would be a lie. So, in a similar fashion, a grey person could say things like 'I'm too ace for this shit', yet still not actually fully identify as or be asexual.

[Homer]

52 minutes ago, Laurann said:

I do think we need to be careful with the 'Grey-sexuals are not asexual!!'- thing. Just like it's not fair to call bi people 'not gay enough' and push them out of gay communities, it's not fair to push grey-asexual people out of this community when they feel they don't really belong anywhere else either.

Nobody does that. It's not about the community. It's about accurate information on an educational website.

[ryn2]

That’s an interesting way to look at it, @Laurann.  It seems like the most common model in use here is a spectrum that in some way ranges from “very sexual” (whether gay, bi, pan, or hetero) to ace... which would mean demi, frey, and other grey/grey-ish sexualities would all fall on there somewhere.

 

I suppose bi could be the entire middle of a spectrum running from homosexual to heterosexual but I don’t often see it discussed that way.

[ryn2]

I’m trying to be accurate, so as to minimize confusion.  I’m fine with @CBC‘s take on it (or even @Laurann‘s) but I also see a good number of people on AVEN stating that greys and demis are ace (not just effectively ace) or are “on the asexual spectrum) and/or that one’s designation applies to one’s present sexuality rather than one’s entire life experience.  It doesn’t seem like we’ve come to consensus (or, if we have, like everyone understands what that consensus is).

[Snao Cone]

"Ace" is typically shorthand for asexual and nearly asexual (grey or demi). Bisexual people use "gay" all the time, especially if they lean towards the homosexual side. It's easier for them to communicate with shorthand, so they simplify it. 

 

"Asexual" as a concept to educate people on is one single point. It's at the very end. It means no sexual attraction/desire for partnered sex. 

 

The "spectrum" is from completely asexual to a flaming ball of pure sexual energy. There's a wide range of normal sexuality that takes up most of that. Then there's a tiny range at the asexual end that is for all practical purposes much more like asexuality than sexuality. That's what people mean when they say "asexual spectrum". It's a part of the sexual intensity spectrum (not to be confused with the gendered orientation one). It's not a spectrum of its own that's isolated from sexuality; it's a part of it. (This is why I dislike the term "asexual spectrum" - like if someone talked about a "blue spectrum" that was separate from the spectrum of visible light and resented being told that a rainbow isn't made of detachable parts.)

 

I honestly don't think we'll ever get some formal convention of how to describe or identify a/sexuality. Attempting at consensus among people who choose to be involved in one conversation is fine, but you'll still come across people who describe it differently and can't enforce that consensus - only use it as an example to help come up an understanding. 

[Marlow1]

6 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Same here but vivid mental imagery does not necessarily result in sexual attraction to others.

Every single person that I have spoken to that said they had Aphantasia has said their level of attraction was either low or none existent but like you are saying even folk that have high levels of Phantasia can also have low levels or no attraction

 

This is a mystery to me, and I really cannot understand why this would be so.

 

The scientist are currently using brain scans to determine peoples level of Phantasia. Maybe in the future they might look at the lack of attraction for folk that have Aphantasia and even the lack of attraction for some folk with Phantasia. 

 

All I can tell you is the more my partner and I study the Phantasia spectrum and the other spectrums discussed here at AVEN the more we understand ourselves and our relationship. Things are going a lot better for is now. 

[TheAP]

@Marlow1 I don't really understand why asexuality and vivid mental imagery would be mutually exclusive. They could have vivid mental pictures about a lot of other things, not necessarily sexual ones. And asexuals can have sexual fantasies of a sort, though we lack sexual attraction.

[Marlow1]

1 hour ago, TheAP said:

@Marlow1 I don't really understand why asexuality and vivid mental imagery would be mutually exclusive. They could have vivid mental pictures about a lot of other things, not necessarily sexual ones. And asexuals can have sexual fantasies of a sort, though we lack sexual attraction.

Please forgive me. It is very difficult for me to imagine what it is like to have a minds eye. When people explain things to me I understand better

[anisotrophic]

Does one find sex somewhat physically pleasurable, even if one never experiences desire for it?

Does one ever want to have sex to make someone else happy, but feel no attraction to them?

Does one actually propose sex to that partner, because they know it will cheer them up?

Does one seek out reasons to feel amenable to sex, to make an allo partner happy?

And if they start to find reasons, do they count as attraction? Have they invalidated their asexuality? Cured it?

 

For a sex-indifferent ace in a relationship with an allo, the whole "anything supportive of sex is gray" → "gray is sexual" conversations sound like so much gate-keeping, and the "labels" start to look like a lose-lose situation. One can invalidate an asexual identity (or feel like they aren't allowed to claim it)... or one can give up on trying to improve sexual intimacy with an allo partner.

That's my theory on why someone in this particular situation might hate the labels.

[ryn2]

6 hours ago, TheAP said:

@Marlow1 I don't really understand why asexuality and vivid mental imagery would be mutually exclusive. They could have vivid mental pictures about a lot of other things, not necessarily sexual ones. And asexuals can have sexual fantasies of a sort, though we lack sexual attraction.

Agreed, having the capability for strong visual imagery (even if it is sexual imagery) doesn’t equate to experiencing sexual attraction to other people, or to a desire to engage in partnered sex.

[Chamomile_Serenity]

Great topic and question. I can understand where @Homer is coming from and I also get where @Snao Cone and @Laurann are coming from. When I first came to this site I just went with grey because I

didn't want to be "wrong" about my assumption and going middle ground seemed safe until I figured things out. I used the term grey-asexual rather than greysexual or graysexual because that's simply what I saw the most used on the discussions here. The more I understand about sexual attraction and sexual desire the more I identify with calling myself ace rather than grey. Most importantly I am ok with this label and I am ok should this label change again. I think it's important to give yourself the freedom and permission to stumble your way to defining yourself for yourself.  "(aka the desire to have a sexual relationship with a person inparticular)" that is super helpful btw l wish I saw that from the door instead of "ace is experiencing little to no sexual attraction" Anyway, I think greysexual is more accurate, by wiki definition standards but it doesn't take away anything from anyone wanting to find community here or wanting to feel they finally belong somewhere. Also, pointedly saying "nope you're not ace" leaving *crickets in your wake can easily be perceived as a shut down and a shut out, things can get lost in translation in virtual settings especially to people trying to understand themselves which requires vulnerability on their part and patience. My take? A label in this type of context is just that. It's how you identify at the time and based on your understanding of what is being presented. 

[Homer]

9 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Does one find sex somewhat physically pleasurable, even if one never experiences desire for it?

I'm like that with parties. Ugh, parties. Leave me alone. Yet when my football club celebrated its 50th, someone asked whether I wanted to come along. I still went to that party and I had a blast, but I'd NEVER have said "Oh there's a party let's go have some fun."

 

9 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Does one ever want to have sex to make someone else happy, but feel no attraction to them?

I think that the "want" in this context belongs to the happiness. One wants to make the other person happy and if it takes sex to accomplish this in that particular situation, so be it.

 

9 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Does one actually propose sex to that partner, because they know it will cheer them up?

Same as above. I could imagine a situation where the asexual partner thinks "Okay, today is a day I can deal with this", so they might walk up to their partner suggesting to get this over with

 

9 hours ago, anisotropic said:

And if they start to find reasons, do they count as attraction? Have they invalidated their asexuality? Cured it?

There's a huge gap between "finding a reason to be okay with something" and "desiring" something, so my answer is "no". Also, there's nothing to "cure".

[Sally]

I had sex for years with my husband, and then with my partner.  They wanted it; I cared about them; so I had it, but never wanted it or enjoyed it.  

 

But once I learned there was a term for that lack of feeling (asexuality), I knew I was asexual.  To me that's a standalone situation: never wanting sex, no matter how much you loved someone.  I wondered for years why I didn't want sex with my partner when I thought he was so attractive and felt so romantic about him.  I now know that romance and aesthetic attraction can be completely separate from sexual attraction.  

 

I agree with Homer and Ficto.  If there are situations -- with certain persons, after certain periods of time knowing someone -- where/when you want and enjoy sex, you are not asexual.   It doesn't matter how often, or how rarely.  If you feel sexual feelings, you're sexual.

[anisotrophic]

12 hours ago, Homer said:

Also, there's nothing to "cure".

Sorry, I used charged language to emphasize the immutability that is inherent in an orientation.

 

But human perception is mutable, we build narratives of "why" we do the things we do, and we form identities in that process.

 

12 hours ago, Homer said:

I still went to that party and I had a blast, but I'd NEVER have said "Oh there's a party let's go have some fun."

 

12 hours ago, Homer said:

There's a huge gap between "finding a reason to be okay with something" and "desiring" something, so my answer is "no".

There is and there isn't. The word "want" can encompass a variety of reasons to "want" a thing for reasons that are not an intrinsic desire for that thing itself. I "want" to take my kids to playgrounds, parks, museums, places to play. I might call these "desires", but they are derived from the happiness I see it brings them.

Asexuality and "gray" asexuality seem to be heterogeneous categories that combine a variety of types. I think the partisanship that seems implied by this thread's subject (and the responses provoked) belies the underlying complexity. And I think sometimes, people that are essentially asexual may use "gray" as a hedge; if asexuality seems to be held to a purity test, self-examination and self-doubt regarding any positive physical and/or emotional reasons for sex can leave one reaching for a "gray" caveat.

 

Rather than picking a side, I would instead say: depending on the reasons for identifying as "gray asexual", and on how one defines "asexuality", a "gray asexual" may be asexual or sexual or genuinely "in between".

And I think @Pramana made a very thoughtful post recently, striving to dissect what drives the identities of gray asexuality and demisexuality: 

This was the first time I'd seen a hypothesis that made me see demisexuality as potentially describing a reasonably "ace" phenomenon: one of sexual fluidity within an asexual orientation, rather than an oddly special descriptor for very normal human behavior.

[koreeann]

1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

\Asexuality and "gray" asexuality seem to be heterogeneous categories that combine a variety of types. I think the partisanship that seems implied by this thread's subject (and the responses provoked) belies the underlying complexity. And I think sometimes, people that are essentially asexual may use "gray" as a hedge; if asexuality seems to be held to a purity test, self-examination and self-doubt regarding any positive physical and/or emotional reasons for sex can leave one reaching for a "gray" caveat.

 

Rather than picking a side, I would instead say: depending on the reasons for identifying as "gray asexual", and on how one defines "asexuality", a "gray asexual" may be asexual or sexual or genuinely "in between".

And I think @Pramana made a very thoughtful post recently, striving to dissect what drives the identities of gray asexuality and demisexuality: 

This was the first time I'd seen a hypothesis that made me see demisexuality as potentially describing a reasonably "ace" phenomenon: one of sexual fluidity within an asexual orientation, rather than an oddly special descriptor for very normal human behavior.

This is a great response post! It confirms what a lot of empirical research on the subject of asexuality has explored.

 

I think greysexual individuals sometimes like to identify as being on the asexual spectrum because they more closely align with asexuality than sexuality. Some graysexual individuals experience sexual attraction maybe once or twice in their entire lives and would, therefore, identify more with an asexual label even though technically they would be considered sexual. Saying someone is sexual implies that they fit into this group of "normal" sexuality, when in fact, graysexuals fall outside those norms and fall within asexuality. Some people who define themselves as graysexuals aren't even sure they know what sexual attraction is or can't distinguish it from other types of attraction. So for them to be "forced" into a "sexual" category can be very confusing and is not true to their feelings/experiences. 

 

I don't think it's right to try and group a whole subset of people together and say "all graysexuals are sexual" or "all graysexuals are asexual". I really think that a lot of it depends on the individual and what they feel comfortable calling themselves and where they want to label themselves on the spectrum. Sure, graysexuals are not PURELY asexual, but there is a growing body of evidence to support the idea that graysexuals and their subgroups are their own subgroup of asexuality rather than sexuality. 

[Dande]

On 7/5/2018 at 6:55 AM, Homer said:

Why? What makes you say that?

Because Asexuality is a spectrum that encompasses:   Demi- Grey- and Asexuality.  

[ryn2]

I asked the question originally because I’m trying to work through whether or not my relationship can continue and on one hand I have my spouse telling me what I think and feel (because he’s read up on asexuals) but on the other I see people here saying “greysexuals and freysexuals aren’t ace because at some point in their lives they feel sexual attraction and desire partnered sex”... and I’m just confused.  I feel like I don’t fit anywhere.