Can respect replace attraction?

[Galactic Turtle]

Hello humans.

 

It was recently Father's Day (in the United States, anyway) so my parents, sister, and I all got together for a nice brunch. The topic of marriage came up which my sister took the lead on. The past few times this has come up I actually wasn't asked any questions just because they know I've been going through a lot. However this time the conversation did turn to me. I've said in the past that I feel happy and positive about staying single for my entire life and plan to use my time in search of mastery in skills related to my career and even things I do as just a hobby for myself. I've explained that while many people sing or write about romantic love, the most beautiful moments for me have been amongst friends or with family or discovering something new on my own or with a good team.

 

But my dad said he's wanted nothing more than to see me get married, that knowing there's someone around to look after me would put him at ease. They vaguely brought up my feelings about sex and romance and said that attraction doesn't have to be a factor if I respect someone. They said, hypothetically, there could be a man who is very qualified who might be interested in me and that if I respect him enough I can be good in that type of role once I get rid of my touch aversion. I said that I haven't come across men my age who I respect at the level that I think they're suggesting but is that really enough? They said that respect is lacking in the world in general and that if I replace ideas of attraction or desire with that instead I'll feel more comfortable about the idea.

 

So for anyone who isn't aromantic or asexual, do you think that would be enough for you from a partner? Or I also know that there are aromantic people who are married. Did you get married because you respected the person?

[Yep, me]

16 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

 

 

But my dad said he's wanted nothing more than to see me get married, that knowing there's someone around to look after me would put him at ease. They vaguely brought up my feelings about sex and romance and said that attraction doesn't have to be a factor if I respect someone. They said, hypothetically, there could be a man who is very qualified who might be interested in me and that if I respect him enough I can be good in that type of role once I

 

get rid of my touch aversion.

1: Your life is your own, and you should never live your life a certain way (or at least in this significant and personal of a life choice) just because it makes someone else happy.

2: From my experience, that’s not possible, if anything, by attempting to “get rid of it” you make it even worse.

[Galactic Turtle]

10 minutes ago, Zenzencat104 said:

1: Your life is your own, and you should never live your life a certain way (or at least in this significant and personal of a life choice) just because it makes someone else happy.

2: From my experience, that’s not possible, if anything, by attempting to “get rid of it” you make it even worse.

You should also be accommodating though. I'm the youngest in my family so I don't have the type of perspective everyone else has. If marriage can be more about respect than attraction, then orientation doesn't really matter so I don't have an excuse. As for touch aversion, I'm not getting rid of it really but I'm working on it. I've learned to think about how various forms of touch make other people feel rather than focusing on me. Like I did a type of.... one armed side hug for my parents after brunch and because I concentrated so much on how happy it made them I was able to slightly distract myself from internal disgust/reprimand in that particular two second moment. It's not much but it's a start, perhaps?

 

I just wanted to know if this type of dynamic is common in romantic relationships and maybe it's incorrectly assumed that people in those partnerships feel other types of things.

[gisiebob]

hugs mademoiselle turtle what from space. I think a partnership born on simple respect for one another would be something of value for you, but I don't know where you would be able to find that which bypasses someone else's assumed expectations of you....as well as your assumed expectations of someone you don't know

 

if only fairytales could be spun into reality...

[everywhere and nowhere]

23 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

You should also be accommodating though. I'm the youngest in my family so I don't have the type of perspective everyone else has. If marriage can be more about respect than attraction, then orientation doesn't really matter so I don't have an excuse. As for touch aversion, I'm not getting rid of it really but I'm working on it. I've learned to think about how various forms of touch make other people feel rather than focusing on me. Like I did a type of.... one armed side hug for my parents after brunch and because I concentrated so much on how happy it made them I was able to slightly distract myself from internal disgust/reprimand in that particular two second moment. It's not much but it's a start, perhaps?

 

I just wanted to know if this type of dynamic is common in romantic relationships and maybe it's incorrectly assumed that people in those partnerships feel other types of things.

Don't let your family bully you and talk you into doing things you are uncomfortable with.

Perhaps my perspective is skewed since I don't know you well enough, but I'm getting the impression that your therapy is doing more harm than good. Is there anyone else with whom you could talk about your family pressuring you?

[Telecaster68]

Whether it can replace attraction is up to you and your partner, individually. For you, it sounds like in practice, it means empathy - that's what you were doing when you focused on touch being good for the person hugging you, rather than your own feelings. It sounds like you're consciously 'hacking' something a lot of people do intuitively. For your hypothetical partner, it would mean something similar - accepting that you were content enough to be touched for their sake, without you feeling actively want to. For some people, that would be enough; for many, it wouldn't. 

[Homer]

I don't think you ever need an 'excuse' not to get married. It's fine for your family to have their visions and images about your future, but at the end of the day it's your life and your decision alone.

I think that marriage (in the legal sense) is something that contains a lot of responsibility for one another. I respect a lot of people, but that alone is not enough for me to marry them. It's how I roll and it doesn't matter at all how common that is.

 

It's not for me to say that respect is enough of a base to build a marriage on for you or not, but the fact that you're doubtful is a strong hint. Listen to yourself before you listen to others.

[everywhere and nowhere]

I also wanted to add: no, I don't think that respect can ever replace attraction. The only thing that can is great friendship - that is, consciously entering a platonic marriage because of being best friends with your supposed fiance. However, what your family is proposing is a recipe for disaster. I can't understand how could parents try to push their child into an unhappy marriage which would have next to zero chance of being succesful.

So, again: don't let them bully you. Perhaps you could be able to switch to a therapist who would understand better that moderate touch aversion, asexuality and aromanticism are legitimate? If your touch aversion is strong, alleviating it so that it doesn't hinder your everyday life is a commendable goal. However, I'm quite certain that your family's real intention is to make you "marriageable" and "fuckable" - and that is already psychological violence. This is an intervention I would, personally, never allow on myself because my sex aversion is something I don't want to change. And I think it has little to do with parental love to try changing one's child into someone they are not.

[ryn2]

If you decide at some point that you want to enter into a long-term relationship, then it’s certainly possible you could find a partner who is okay with not being desired/found sexually attractive by you.  It’s not a 1:1 substitution and many people may not be okay with it, but that’s not the same as saying “no one will.”

 

However...

 

1) you don’t need an excuse not to get married.  If I’m remembering correctly you live in the US, where marriage is not required.  It’s only something you “need” to do if you want it.

 

2) being married in no way guarantees you someone to look after you, just like having children doesn’t guarantee you’ll have someone to take care of you in old age.

[Library2]

I hope that was just a poor word choice (respect), maybe they were saying loving a friend? I wouldn't try to get rid of your touch aversion, that actually sounds impossible to me. Theoretically that's what I would've wanted but whether it's really possible, or whether I would just rely on friends in general, I don't know. That concept of really really trying to marry someone sounds bizarre to me. I thought you were only supposed to marry/have sex if you really felt the need to do so, not just because that's what a lot of people do.

[Galactic Turtle]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:17 PM, gisiebob said:

hugs mademoiselle turtle what from space. I think a partnership born on simple respect for one another would be something of value for you, but I don't know where you would be able to find that which bypasses someone else's assumed expectations of you....as well as your assumed expectations of someone you don't know

 

if only fairytales could be spun into reality...

It's one of my desires to make friends with and continue to meet various people in life who I respect but the idea of all of this (I've learned since this conversation) is that if I respect someone it will be less traumatic to get married and have kids. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and the best case scenario I can think of is maybe meeting someone who can be like a brother to me. But the more I think about it the more stressed I get. If I think of someone as a brother I think having to do those things would be damaging in the end no matter how much I respect them. I think they would grow to dislike me and people would find out and it would be me who is the problem instead of everyone else involved.

 

 

On 6/23/2018 at 7:50 PM, Nowhere Girl said:

Don't let your family bully you and talk you into doing things you are uncomfortable with.

Perhaps my perspective is skewed since I don't know you well enough, but I'm getting the impression that your therapy is doing more harm than good. Is there anyone else with whom you could talk about your family pressuring you?

I don't really know what therapy is doing. I go, there's some talking, I get upset, and he always says I'm not trying hard enough or that I'm wasting both his and my time but also that it's good I'm coming? He did say that now probably isn't the best time to think about those types of relationships when the ones I already have aren't what I want them to be and that while it's fine to say I'm not attracted to men I might not be in the best position to know what my feelings are about that since being around them makes me too anxious in general for any dots to connect in that area. I mention these things sometimes-ish to one of my friends but she has so much drama happening in her love life I think she'd find this whole thing abnormal.

 

 

16 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Whether it can replace attraction is up to you and your partner, individually. For you, it sounds like in practice, it means empathy - that's what you were doing when you focused on touch being good for the person hugging you, rather than your own feelings. It sounds like you're consciously 'hacking' something a lot of people do intuitively. For your hypothetical partner, it would mean something similar - accepting that you were content enough to be touched for their sake, without you feeling actively want to. For some people, that would be enough; for many, it wouldn't. 

I've been told for over a decade that I'm not capable of empathy but maybe that type of thing will become easier.

 

 

16 hours ago, Homer said:

I don't think you ever need an 'excuse' not to get married. It's fine for your family to have their visions and images about your future, but at the end of the day it's your life and your decision alone.

I think that marriage (in the legal sense) is something that contains a lot of responsibility for one another. I respect a lot of people, but that alone is not enough for me to marry them. It's how I roll and it doesn't matter at all how common that is.

 

It's not for me to say that respect is enough of a base to build a marriage on for you or not, but the fact that you're doubtful is a strong hint. Listen to yourself before you listen to others.

It's complicated, I guess. Things like this I've always viewed as being bigger than just one or two people. That's why it's so important. It doesn't help that I'm almost 25 and have never shown interest in this aspect of life. I feel like even with all the pressure it will be my decision at the end of the day just because of... laws... but laws can't protect you from how you're treated by the people around you.

 

 

15 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I also wanted to add: no, I don't think that respect can ever replace attraction. The only thing that can is great friendship - that is, consciously entering a platonic marriage because of being best friends with your supposed fiance. However, what your family is proposing is a recipe for disaster. I can't understand how could parents try to push their child into an unhappy marriage which would have next to zero chance of being succesful.

So, again: don't let them bully you. Perhaps you could be able to switch to a therapist who would understand better that moderate touch aversion, asexuality and aromanticism are legitimate? If your touch aversion is strong, alleviating it so that it doesn't hinder your everyday life is a commendable goal. However, I'm quite certain that your family's real intention is to make you "marriageable" and "fuckable" - and that is already psychological violence. This is an intervention I would, personally, never allow on myself because my sex aversion is something I don't want to change. And I think it has little to do with parental love to try changing one's child into someone they are not.

I would be ok with, amused, or even happy marrying my closest friend. But all of my friends are women. I've only ever been interested in female companionship. But any hint of a partnership with a woman (which I don't really want but would prefer compared to one with a man) would all but destroy my relationship with most of my family. I guess I just want to grow up well. Everyone expects me to grow out of all of this but I'm not so I'm still seen as a kid even if my age vehemently suggests otherwise. It's not like the person I'm seeing doesn't believe asexuality is a thing, he just thinks it's a thing I'm probably not given all the factors at play. Some people say I'm pretty, there have been people who have wanted to go out with me or at least have sex with me but I can't feel anything positive in return because talking to me is like talking to a kid. That's the extent to which I just can't grasp that aspect of life. People say I'm a waste.

 

 

9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

If you decide at some point that you want to enter into a long-term relationship, then it’s certainly possible you could find a partner who is okay with not being desired/found sexually attractive by you.  It’s not a 1:1 substitution and many people may not be okay with it, but that’s not the same as saying “no one will.”

 

However...

 

1) you don’t need an excuse not to get married.  If I’m remembering correctly you live in the US, where marriage is not required.  It’s only something you “need” to do if you want it.

 

2) being married in no way guarantees you someone to look after you, just like having children doesn’t guarantee you’ll have someone to take care of you in old age.

From where I'm standing things don't seem that simple but thank you.

 

 

6 hours ago, Library2 said:

I hope that was just a poor word choice (respect), maybe they were saying loving a friend? I wouldn't try to get rid of your touch aversion, that actually sounds impossible to me. Theoretically that's what I would've wanted but whether it's really possible, or whether I would just rely on friends in general, I don't know. That concept of really really trying to marry someone sounds bizarre to me. I thought you were only supposed to marry/have sex if you really felt the need to do so, not just because that's what a lot of people do.

I don't know if it's possible but at this point I don't even want to get out of bed.

[Homer]

4 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

It's complicated, I guess. Things like this I've always viewed as being bigger than just one or two people. That's why it's so important.

Question for me to understand: Who else is there involved, apart from those one or two people?

[Galactic Turtle]

6 hours ago, Homer said:

Question for me to understand: Who else is there involved, apart from those one or two people?

My family and the other person's family. There's also the surrounding community, everyone at church, everyone who took a role in raising me.

[ryn2]

3 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

My family and the other person's family. There's also the surrounding community, everyone at church, everyone who took a role in raising me.

Do you feel like you owe them something?

 

If they genuinely care about you as a person - versus trying to advance their own agendas - they ultimately want you to be happy.  Would they prefer that happiness fall in line with their own beliefs and preferences?  Sure, because that’s what they understand... but it doesn’t always work out that way.

 

They don’t have to live your life; you do.  In the end you have to do what works for you.  You can’t make other people happy at your own expense forever... it’s just not sustainable.

[Galactic Turtle]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Do you feel like you owe them something?

I owe them not being an embarrassment or being seen as strange. But I also feel like that's inevitable given the way I turned out. I just don't want to be held at a distance by people I care about or to be viewed as a kid even when I'm 30 because I get so skittish when facing mature relationships.

[Homer]

2 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

My family and the other person's family. There's also the surrounding community, everyone at church, everyone who took a role in raising me.

Why? Would you be in a relationship with the other person's family? Would you be in a relationship with random church folks?

 

It's just you and your partner. If others don't like it, they simply have to suck it up and deal with it. (Yep, that's a valid [and sometimes very necessary] option.)

 

Assuming you found someone on your terms and some church person or other doesn't like them, would that make you reconsider?

[Galactic Turtle]

4 minutes ago, Homer said:

Why? Would you be in a relationship with the other person's family? Would you be in a relationship with random church folks?

 

It's just you and your partner. If others don't like it, they simply have to suck it up and deal with it. (Yep, that's a valid [and sometimes very necessary] option.)

 

Assuming you found someone on your terms and some church person or other doesn't like them, would that make you reconsider?

For holidays and similar gatherings it's important everyone fits in with each other. I've never liked anyone or wanted anyone for myself so it makes the most sense that I should accept someone who fits in with the people I already know. I just really don't understand the day to day of how those types of relationships work or if I'd be good at it. Like right now I'm good on paper but my attitude is wrong. I don't know how much touching is typically involved in relationships. I'm not sure how things work in private or what's expected. But if we both respected each other it could end up being that we wouldn't interact any differently than siblings or friends.

[ryn2]

51 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I owe them not being an embarrassment or being seen as strange.

This is an impossible thing to achieve, not because you are embarrassing or strange but because you cannot control anyone else’s feelings or perceptions.  Only they have any control over/responsibility for what embarrasses them, and/or what they consider strange.

 

Too, what embarrasses them/what they find strange can change over time.  Even if you try to model yourself after what they favor now there’s no guarantee they’ll feel the same way a year from now... or five... or twenty.

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

For holidays and similar gatherings it's important everyone fits in with each other.

It’s just important that everyone is civil or - when they know they can’t be - opts not to attend.

[Homer]

This thread makes me sad

[Galactic Turtle]

13 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s just important that everyone is civil or - when they know they can’t be - opts not to attend.

Not in my experience. Everyone gets along and we can share stories and talk about accomplishments and such. We all have similar backgrounds and similar opinions on things. When I was younger people did poke fun about me being strange but now that I'm older I've started to have to stay in the background and even when my accomplishments are brought up people will start to question the way I was raised because I'm still strange and that puts my parents in a difficult position. One of my uncles in particular is just mean. I love all the various holidays and put a lot of work into doing the house up so everyone can have a nice time but as the years pass it just seems like I'm not meeting expectations to such an extent that I can't get a word in.

 

So I really just want a straight passing relationship to work and to grow out of childish things.

[Galactic Turtle]

@Homer I just wanted to know if it's possible is all. I guess it's not or if it is then it's unlikely to work. I'm still not allowed to adopt so that would be another obstacle down the road. I just wish there were someone like me... who was male, black, Christian, went to a an Ivy League school, had a stable family, and had an impressive occupation. 

[Andy Roo]

6 minutes ago, Homer said:

This thread makes me sad

Me too.

 

 

GT,  I hope that therapy at least gives you some validation, and the confidence to live life as your authentic self.

 

As ryn2 says above, you cannot live your life to please other people, as you can never really know what they think.

 

It's very obvious that there is a real conflict between how you feel and what you think your family wants, I sense that you are going to need to have some very open and honest conversations with them if you want to maintain a healthy relationship with them.

 

You seem to have way too much respect for some of your family members, mocking someone for perceived difference is not mature, expecting someone to get married when they express a dislike for that type of relationship is not mature, making a family member feel like an outsider is not mature behavior.

 

You have far more power and agency than you seem to think, you are worth so much more compassion than you are allowing yourself.  You need to be more selfish, because no one in your life seems to have your best interests at heart right now.

[ryn2]

53 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Not in my experience.

Well, that’s not surprising as your family seems very committed to molding reality such that it matches their personal ideals.

[ryn2]

55 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

...people will start to question the way I was raised because I'm still strange and that puts my parents in a difficult position. One of my uncles in particular is just mean.

This is an ongoing rivalry/competitive dynamic between your parents and their siblings.  It’s not your responsibility (and not within your, or anyone who isn’t your parents, capability) to fix it.

[Galactic Turtle]

@ryn2 I don't think it's unreasonable on my part to want to have a place and it's not unreasonable on the part of others to expect me to reach normal life milestones. I also think being competitive is a good thing. I'm very competitive with my sister and my cousins. I think it's good we have high expectations of each other. It's just difficult for me for reasons I'm trying to work out.

[ryn2]

I’m not saying competitiveness is good or bad; just that you and your siblings/cousins aren’t obligated to serve as pawns for the next generation up.  You are not extensions of your parents.  Now that you are adults, neither your successes (in their eyes) nor your failures (also in their eyes) are theirs.

 

This isn’t specific to your parents.  Boundary establishment challenges many families.

[Yep, me]

4 hours ago, ryn2 said:

This is an impossible thing to achieve, not because you are embarrassing or strange but because you cannot control anyone else’s feelings or perceptions.  Only they have any control over/responsibility for what embarrasses them, and/or what they consider strange.

 

Too, what embarrasses them/what they find strange can change over time.  Even if you try to model yourself after what they favor now there’s no guarantee they’ll feel the same way a year from now... or five... or twenty.

Agreed.

[Zsareph]

17 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

 

I don't really know what therapy is doing. I go, there's some talking, I get upset, and he always says I'm not trying hard enough or that I'm wasting both his and my time but also that it's good I'm coming?

 

Your therapist shouldn't be saying that to you. He is supposed to listen to you and help you, saying that you're wasting his time or not trying hard enough will only demotivate you and worsen how well you two get on. When I was struggling with my therapy, my therapist helped me to find another option that would work better for me. Yours is saying that you're wasting both your time but thinks you should keep seeing him (and presumably keep paying him for it too): how does that help you?

 

As for your family, I understand the temptation to conform to someone else's rules and expectations on how they think you should be, especially if they're people you love and respect (I have to say though, if they can't accept you being different, don't listen to what you want and say things like you lack empathy or are a waste, then I think you care about them more than they care about you. They are out of line for treating you that way.)

 

It would be hypocritical to say something like "you need to put yourself first" because that's something I struggle with myself. That said, if who you are and who they want you to be just aren't compatible, you're going to have to deal with conflict regardless (either with them or from within yourself). Do you think you can be happy in a life where you put your family's expectations over your own wants and needs as a person? If it was someone else in your situation, what would you suggest?

[Lucinda]

What does your therapist want you to do now to show you are trying hard enough?

 

And I do think you can find what you are looking for, but no one can predict how soon.

 

Lucinda