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Another comparison...

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uhtred
1 hour ago, vega57 said:

Is she buying it because she knows you like to see her in it, or because she likes it or both?  

 

And, since when does wearing 'slinky lingerie' automatically mean that one is interested in having sex?  Sometimes, the stuff is comfortable and attractive.  You feel GOOD wearing it.  

 

Sex may not even be on the radar.  

She buys it because she knows I think she is attractive in it.

 

I think most people do view wearing slinky lingerie as in indication of interest in sex.  I thought that was pretty typical signaling. 

 

I have bought her comfortable, really nice, but not overtly sexy lingerie that she sometimes wears, but tends to more often wear the sexy stuff. 

 

She once seemed confused when I commented on how sexy lingerie but no sex was sort of a tease.  I thought that was obvious. 

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Philip027
8 hours ago, uhtred said:

Then I think you don't understand.  Think about "necessary but not sufficient".  Think about links in a chain.  I think that there are a lot of things that are not "everything" but that many people would leave over:

I think you're the one not understanding.

 

If you're saying that it isn't everything, yet you would leave over that one thing, how do you expect to come across as anything but a hypocrite?  The actions don't fit the words.

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uhtred
1 hour ago, vega57 said:

See, I think this is a serious issue.  Why not simply be the person who you are?  I mean, if you're trying to change for someone, either you're with the wrong person or you *are* the wrong person for them.  

Because I think its natural when you love someone to try to be what they would like you to be.  I don't mean wild changes in personality, but trying to behave in ways that I thought she would appreciate.  Things like doing more romantic things, dressing better, stopping little habits that bothered her etc. 

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uhtred
1 hour ago, mzmolly65 said:

Is she unable to do the one thing that is missing?  Or are you unable to see all the things she IS doing?  I can tell you from my experience it's absolutely sh!t to do everything you possibly can to be the best wife possible .. and all the other person can see if that you "missed a spot".

 

 

Both.  She is unable to do this particular thing that is important to me.  At the same time I DO see all the other things she is doing. The problem is that they are not substitutes. 

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uhtred
1 hour ago, mzmolly65 said:

AND vice versa .. just because a woman doesn't wear that stuff (dang it's uncomfortable AND expensive) do not assume she is not interested in sex, or not feminine or not a "real woman"

IMHO there is a fair bit of lingerie that is both attractive and comfortable - and that is the sort my wife wears.  (I base comfort on her description not that I wear it ;-). ). Expensive is not a big issue. 

 

There is also uncomfortable looking lingerie. 

 

 

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uhtred
5 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I think you're the one not understanding.

 

If you're saying that it isn't everything, yet you would leave over that one thing, how do you expect to come across as anything but a hypocrite?  The actions don't fit the words.

Real question: do you understand the phrase "necessary but not sufficient".  It basically means that  there are a set of requirements, and the item under discussion is one of them.  Think of the engine, brakes and steering wheel in a car.    The steering wheel is "necessary" because the car is useless without it, but it is not sufficient, the wheel by itself isn't a car, nor is it in any sense the most important part of the car.

 

 

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SusannaC

I don’t believe it’s hypocritical to feel the way you do Uhtred.  You have been hurt by your wife’s inconsistent behavior regarding intimacy, and the mixed messages she has conveyed over the years.  You obviously care deeply for her  from what I have read- but your needs are nevertheless valid and real.  

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max9701
1 hour ago, vega57 said:

How would having sex with someone who has no desire for sex 'save your marriage'?  

If my wife were to be okay with sex, and did it to make me happy, it could perhaps be a loving and mutual act, and that might be sufficient to meet my needs. The alternative being separation, or an attempt at an open marriage, which is unlikely to work for both of us - that could save our marriage.

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Philip027

That's besides the point and you're avoiding the issue.

 

If something is important enough to the point the whole thing falls apart without it, it isn't really accurate to say it isn't everything.  It certainly is everything, because without a steering wheel you wouldn't bother getting the car.  Likewise, if you go and say sex isn't everything yet you would be out the door without it, I would be wondering why it is that you had to make a vague, inaccurate statement.  If it wasn't everything to you, surely it wasn't so big a deal as to separate over?

 

Again, if you're trying to say sex is just one vital aspect to you, there's a number of better, more accurate ways to convey that.  Like, "sex is important to me, but it's not the only thing that's important."  There, I wouldnt have to think of you as a liar for leaving over sex.  That was simple.

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anisotrophic
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

The mixed relationships that work are the ones that get past the desire element and the sexual can accept that sexual activity is offered because the asexual understands it's important to their partner, and maybe even gets some enjoyment on that basis, so it could be the start of negotiating that. The ones that don't work are hardly ever just about lack of sex, but lack of concern and engagement from one side or the other. 

I just wanted to bump this because it seems pretty spot on to me.

Not much to add. I think it does describe the tasks in front of us, for me & my partner.

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uhtred
1 minute ago, Philip027 said:

That's besides the point and you're avoiding the issue.

 

If something is important enough to the point the whole thing falls apart without it, it isn't really accurate to say it isn't everything.  It certainly is everything, because without a steering wheel you wouldn't bother getting the car.  Likewise, if you go and say sex isn't everything yet you would be out the door without it, I would be wondering why it is that you had to make a vague, inaccurate statement.  If it wasn't everything to you, surely it wasn't so big a deal as to separate over?

 

Again, if you're trying to say sex is just one vital aspect to you, there's a number of better, more accurate ways to convey that.  Like, "sex is important to me, but it's not the only thing that's important."  There, I wouldnt have to think of you as a liar for leaving over sex.  That was simple.

Sounds like a language problem.  I thought that I and others were saying almost exactly "sex is important to us but not the only important thing", just with the addition that "it may be important enough to leave without it". 

 

Sounds the same as you not buying a care without a steering wheel.  Its not the most important thing to you but it is important and a deal-breaker if it isn't there. 

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uhtred
10 minutes ago, max9701 said:

If my wife were to be okay with sex, and did it to make me happy, it could perhaps be a loving and mutual act, and that might be sufficient to meet my needs. The alternative being separation, or an attempt at an open marriage, which is unlikely to work for both of us - that could save our marriage.

A lot depends on how the asexual feels about sex.  If they don't really care one way or the other, then its hard to see why they wouldn't do it out of love. I give my wife massages - I don't personally enjoy doing it much, but I don't mind doing it, so I'm happy to do so because it makes her happy.  If I found giving massages distressing, it would be different. 

 

Some of us are confused because our partners give every indication of thinking sex is OK and maybe mildly enjoying it, so we don't understand why they are not happy to do it as a favor.  If they find it distressing / bad, that is an entirely different matter. 

 

 

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ryn2
1 hour ago, mzmolly65 said:

Is she unable to do the one thing that is missing?  Or are you unable to see all the things she IS doing?  I can tell you from my experience it's absolutely sh!t to do everything you possibly can to be the best wife possible .. and all the other person can see if that you "missed a spot".

 

 

This was my mother.  She was single-mindedly fixated on me taking out the garbage, which I hated.  I could legit get the whole house spotless and the first and only thing she would say was “I see you didn’t take out the garbage.”

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Philip027

I was just using the exact wording of the OP; "sex isn't everything"

 

If I were to hear someone say this about anything, I would assume their stance on it ranges from "unimportant" to "well, it sucks to go without it, but I'll make it work".  It's not what I'd expect to hear when their stance is more like "nope, can't deal without it, this is a dealbreaker"

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ryn2
8 minutes ago, uhtred said:

If they don't really care one way or the other, then its hard to see why they wouldn't do it out of love.

One persistent confusion I’ve seen here (not specifically from you, uhtred) is between having sex out of love (for a partner who wants it) and initiating sex.  For me, and for at least some other non-sex-averse aces I’ve spoken with, being asked to have sex and complying is much easier, and therefore much more likely to happen, than being asked to initiate.  There are more hurdles to overcome with the latter than the former.

 

I realize this does not apply to everyone.

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PanFicto.
9 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I was just using the exact wording of the OP; "sex isn't everything"

 

If I were to hear someone say this about anything, I would assume their stance on it ranges from "unimportant" to "well, it sucks to go without it, but I'll make it work".  It's not what I'd expect to hear when their stance is more like "nope, can't deal without it, this is a dealbreaker"

Sausages aren't everything. But if I don't get sausages with my dinner I'm refusing to eat the meal and never coming to the table again unless there's sausages on my plate. But again, sausages aren't everything.. obviously.  Other stuff is good too.

 

(Edit: just to clarify, I'm trying to emphasize that I get what you're saying) :P

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ryn2
14 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Some of us are confused because our partners give every indication of thinking sex is OK and maybe mildly enjoying it, so we don't understand why they are not happy to do it as a favor.  If they find it distressing / bad, that is an entirely different matter. 

Some of this may be frequency.  There are plenty of things in life people okay doing occasionally, but not able to sustain doing often.

 

It sounds like - for some couples - this is compounded by any given sex leaving the sexual thinking “oh, good, maybe we can do this again soon” but the ace thinking “oh, good, that should keep us from having to do that again for a while.”

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max9701
15 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I was just using the exact wording of the OP; "sex isn't everything"

 

If I were to hear someone say this about anything, I would assume their stance on it ranges from "unimportant" to "well, it sucks to go without it, but I'll make it work".  It's not what I'd expect to hear when their stance is more like "nope, can't deal without it, this is a dealbreaker"

Ever hear someone say "money isn't everything?" It's very true. That doesn't imply that it's unimportant, or even unnecessary. 

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uhtred
38 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

One persistent confusion I’ve seen here (not specifically from you, uhtred) is between having sex out of love (for a partner who wants it) and initiating sex.  For me, and for at least some other non-sex-averse aces I’ve spoken with, being asked to have sex and complying is much easier, and therefore much more likely to happen, than being asked to initiate.  There are more hurdles to overcome with the latter than the former.

 

I realize this does not apply to everyone.

Interesting.  In my case my wife is ONLY interested in sex if she initiates, my initiating is an almost guaranteed rejection (one exception in 2 years).  I know that is not typical 

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uhtred
34 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Some of this may be frequency.  There are plenty of things in life people okay doing occasionally, but not able to sustain doing often.

 

It sounds like - for some couples - this is compounded by any given sex leaving the sexual thinking “oh, good, maybe we can do this again soon” but the ace thinking “oh, good, that should keep us from having to do that again for a while.”

Yes, that is huge problem.  For the asexual, having sex seems like it should "solve" the problem for a while. For the sexual, it is a reminder of what life "should" be like. 

 

The problem is often far larger than either realizes.  The asexual is happy with sex every month or two, but manages to stretch to every other week.  The sexual wants sex every other day but can tolerate once every other week.  So when sex happens, the asexual thinks "great,  that should be enough for a while", the sexual thinks "that was great, we should do that more often". 

 

 

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uhtred
50 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I was just using the exact wording of the OP; "sex isn't everything"

 

If I were to hear someone say this about anything, I would assume their stance on it ranges from "unimportant" to "well, it sucks to go without it, but I'll make it work".  It's not what I'd expect to hear when their stance is more like "nope, can't deal without it, this is a dealbreaker"

OK, just a language problem. I'll be more precise:

 

For me, sex is an necessary but not sufficient part of a happy marriage.  e.g., I cannot be happy without a good sex life but it is only one of a number of things that I require in order to be happy. I have all of the other things.  My level of unhappiness without sex is such that while I have and do seriously contemplate a divorce, I have so far decided not to do so. 

 

 

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Interesting.  In my case my wife is ONLY interested in sex if she initiates, my initiating is an almost guaranteed rejection (one exception in 2 years).  I know that is not typical 

Yeah, I wouldn’t say she’s the one and only but it seems rarer? Or maybe most of the ace-initiating couples aren’t here?

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ryn2
12 minutes ago, uhtred said:

The problem is often far larger than either realizes. 

For the ace it restarts the timer; for the sexual it rekindles the hunger.

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Philip027
2 hours ago, max9701 said:

Ever hear someone say "money isn't everything?" It's very true. That doesn't imply that it's unimportant, or even unnecessary. 

I've heard people say it, and I don't necessarily agree with it.  Most people who do say such a thing haven't even tried going for a while without it.

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Yeah, I wouldn’t say she’s the one and only but it seems rarer? Or maybe most of the ace-initiating couples aren’t here?

I think it confuses me too. I mean, how can someone be initiating (in a non-deliberate way)... and ace?

 

It sounds painful and frustrating in different ways.

 

It kind of sounds gray/ace-spectrum rather than ace? This list has the term "burstsexual"??

 

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