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Another comparison...

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vega57
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Both 

 

But this is a situation where it's been discussed, the asexual has said they're willing to try to be more sexual. It sounds like you don't feel they have any obligation to follow through on what they've agreed. 

They agreed to TRY.  That's all.  

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Telecaster68
11 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Personally I would not agree to keep something on my radar that can’t go in a list, post-it, or reminder, but that’s potentially just me.

Sorry, missed this. 

 

If something is important, wouldn't you put it on a post it, phone reminder etc? 

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Telecaster68
Just now, vega57 said:

They agreed to TRY.  That's all.  

And what would trying consist of? 

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It sounds like you were talking about reactions to it being brought up for the first time. I was thinking about being aware that since a Talk, initiating sex might be a a good thing, by way way of following through on that discussion, for example. 

If someone told me in a Talk that I needed to initiate sex, I would either have to go with set days or drop reminders on my electronic calendar.  If someone told me “I want you to spontaneously initiate sex,” I could not agree because that would never happen.  Likewise, “tell me when you want sex” will never happen... but this one is more confusing because it (incorrectly, in a way) conveys the message that my wanting sex is the deciding factor over whether or not we do it.

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vega57
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Do you know about responsive desire Vega? 

Have you heard that 'no' means 'NO', Tele?  Besides, calling it responsive "desire" is debatable.  

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sorry, missed this. 

 

If something is important, wouldn't you put it on a post it, phone reminder etc? 

Yes, if 1) it was specific enough (not just “we should have sex more”) and possible (not “you need to initiate sex spontaneously”).

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Telecaster68
Just now, vega57 said:

Have you heard that 'no' means 'NO', Tele?  Besides, calling it responsive "desire" is debatable.  

Given your lack of a straight answer, I'm assuming you see you nothing wrong in agreeing to 'try' and then doing sod all. 

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ryn2
12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Both 

 

But this is a situation where it's been discussed, the asexual has said they're willing to try to be more sexual. It sounds like you don't feel they have any obligation to follow through on what they've agreed. 

Was this to me?  I’ve lost track of which post it was about.

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vega57
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And what would trying consist of? 

Depends on what they agreed to.  Did they agree that she would "try" to "get in the mood" more often?  Probably unrealistic, especially for an asexual.  

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

Yes, if 1) it was specific enough (not just “we should have sex more”) and possible (not “you need to initiate sex spontaneously”).

Let's say it was something you felt comfortable with, like initiating some kind of sensual activity, with the proviso you get to halt it when you don't feel comfortable. 

 

What I'm driving at is something tangible to show 'you' haven't just parked the issue as soon as the conversation ends. 

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SusannaC

this is a contradiction for me:  if the asexual has agreed to try to work on having more sex with his/her partner, then that agreement should be honored.  Especially if the act of sex doesn’t make the person sick or repulsen or that sort of extreme reaction.  Now if the reaction is so awful to sexual intimacy- I don’t know how a relationship is possible at all.  On the other hand for instance: I get annoyed by giving back rubs- but I must be good at it cause I always asked- and I do it out of love for that person.  Same with cooking dinner every night- I DONT CARE WHAT I EAT, but it’s important to him- so I do it because it matters- to him.

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Telecaster68
Just now, vega57 said:

Depends on what they agreed to.  Did they agree that she would "try" to "get in the mood" more often?  Probably unrealistic, especially for an asexual.  

See what's suggested in my previous post. The actual activity isn't as important as recognising this is an important relationship issue that you're following through on whatever you committed to. 

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vega57
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Given your lack of a straight answer, I'm assuming you see you nothing wrong in agreeing to 'try' and then doing sod all. 

Once again, it depends on what "try" means to each individual.  To YOU, it may mean that she actually has sex, whereas, to HER, it may mean that she'll TRY to get in the mood for sex.  

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Telecaster68

One more time. It's whatever you've agreed to. 

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Let's say it was something you felt comfortable with, like initiating some kind of sensual activity, with the proviso you get to halt it when you don't feel comfortable. 

 

What I'm driving at is something tangible to show 'you' haven't just parked the issue as soon as the conversation ends. 

If it was something I don’t normally do I would need to set up a reminder of some sort unless I could do it all the time.

 

Like, if it was something like a quick goodbye kiss or remembering to say “I love you” and doing it every time one of us left the house, sure, I would easily remember and do that.  If it was something more involved that wouldn’t make sense every day, like a back rub, the right time would never come up unless I scheduled it for myself somehow.

 

If it was a vague “show more affection” that might not happen as what was expected isn’t clear.

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vega57
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

See what's suggested in my previous post. The actual activity isn't as important as recognising this is an important relationship issue that you're following through on whatever you committed to. 

You're talking through both sides of your mouth on this one.  You can't say that the actual activity isn't as important...and THEN say that 'following through on whatever you committed to (which is the actual activity) is what's important.  If you agreed to have sex more frequently, you can't say that actually having sex isn't as important as her following through on her agreement to have sex more frequently.   

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ryn2
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

One more time. It's whatever you've agreed to. 

I’ve honestly never been in a situation where I’ve been given something to agree to that was specific and tangible, with any partner.

 

If I was put in a situation like that and agreed to do it (with no outs like “if you want,” “if you are in the mood,” etc.), I would make sure I scheduled and did it.

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SusannaC

Why agree to try to get in the mood if you aren’t trying to please your partner in a cooperative give and take relationship?  The getting in the mood is for the purposes of acting on it, I would think...   

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
13 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

this is a contradiction for me:  if the asexual has agreed to try to work on having more sex with his/her partner, then that agreement should be honored.  Especially if the act of sex doesn’t make the person sick or repulsen or that sort of extreme reaction.  Now if the reaction is so awful to sexual intimacy- I don’t know how a relationship is possible at all.  On the other hand for instance: I get annoyed by giving back rubs- but I must be good at it cause I always asked- and I do it out of love for that person.  Same with cooking dinner every night- I DONT CARE WHAT I EAT, but it’s important to him- so I do it because it matters- to him.

Just have to say, cooking and backrubs are very different from having sex. You can do either of those relatively comfortably with someone who isn't your partner (ie a friend) and it won't feel that much different. Sex on the other hand is very, very different emotionally, physically, and mentally. If you don't actually want it (even if you're neutral) and are trying to do it to make your partner happy, the amount it takes out of you is astronomical. A fully sexual person who has always been sexual will probably never be able to understand this, but yeah - cooking and backrubs are no comparison. Compare it more to your partner wanting you to do something that truly drains you massively and you find very difficult to force yourself to do and you'll be getting closer to the feeling many sex neutral asexuals experience when giving their partner sex (after a while anyway, it's usually easier to start with). 

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Telecaster68

So if part of the agreement was 'a back rub on Thursday night', you'd set up a reminder for Thursday night, which is fair enough. I guess the underlying thing is it all seems like an asexual partner doesn't see any need to take an active part in changing the situation - it's all passive and seems rather unengaged in the relationship issue. 

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Telecaster68
4 minutes ago, vega57 said:

You're talking through both sides of your mouth on this one.  You can't say that the actual activity isn't as important...and THEN say that 'following through on whatever you committed to (which is the actual activity) is what's important.  If you agreed to have sex more frequently, you can't say that actually having sex isn't as important as her following through on her agreement to have sex more frequently.   

Changing the subject, and it's clear why. 

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ryn2
13 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

If the asexual has agreed to try to work on having more sex with his/her partner, then that agreement should be honored.

It seems nit-picky, but to me agreeing to do something specific (“we agreed to have sex x times a week”) is a workable commitment (where if the ace can’t deliver he/she/they should say so upon realizing).  Agreeing to do something vague (“try to get in the mood more often”) is also a commitment but isn’t workable because the guaranteed result is that getting in the mood will never happen AND that doesn’t mean the ace hasn’t tried.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Just have to say, cooking and backrubs are very different from having sex. You can do either of those relatively comfortably with someone who isn't your partner (ie a friend) and it won't feel that much different. Sex on the other hand is very, very different emotionally, physically, and mentally. If you don't actually want it (even if you're neutral) and are trying to do it to make your partner happy, the amount it takes out of you is astronomical. A fully sexual person who has always been sexual will probably never be able to understand this, but yeah - cooking and backrubs are no comparison. Compare it more to your partner wanting you to do something that truly drains you massively and you find very difficult to force yourself to do and you'll be getting closer to the feeling many sex neutral asexuals experience when giving their partner sex (after a while anyway, it's usually easier to start with). 

I agree it's different, but it's seeming like from Vega there's expected to be an unending series of get outs for asexuals, so they can just agree to anything to make an uncomfortable conversation end, and then continue as though they hadn't committed to anything. When the sexual partner objects, they're being unreasonable. 

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

It seems nit-picky, but to me agreeing to do something specific (“we agreed to have sex x times a week”) is a workable commitment (where if the ace can’t deliver he/she/they should say so upon realizing).  Agreeing to do something vague (“try to get in the mood more often”) is also a commitment but isn’t workable because the guaranteed result is that getting in the mood will never happen AND that doesn’t mean the ace hasn’t tried.

Is it beyond asexuals to come up with anything they're okay with themselves and just do it?

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

Why agree to try to get in the mood if you aren’t trying to please your partner in a cooperative give and take relationship?  The getting in the mood is for the purposes of acting on it, I would think...   

The thing is... the ace partner will never get in the mood. It doesn’t happen.  If it happened, sex would be happening and there would be less of an issue.

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vega57
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So if part of the agreement was 'a back rub on Thursday night', you'd set up a reminder for Thursday night, which is fair enough. I guess the underlying thing is it all seems like an asexual partner doesn't see any need to take an active part in changing the situation - it's all passive and seems rather unengaged in the relationship issue. 

Once again, do you want them to just go through the motions?  Because that's exactly what they'd be doing.  

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Telecaster68

So why agree to something they can't follow through? It just makes things worse. 

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Telecaster68
Just now, vega57 said:

Once again, do you want them to just go through the motions?  Because that's exactly what they'd be doing.  

Again, why agree to it then? 

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So if part of the agreement was 'a back rub on Thursday night', you'd set up a reminder for Thursday night, which is fair enough. I guess the underlying thing is it all seems like an asexual partner doesn't see any need to take an active part in changing the situation - it's all passive and seems rather unengaged in the relationship issue. 

Yes, that’s what I would do.

 

If the purpose of the agreement is to have it appear that I am spontaneously doing something I would have to manage it on the back end by setting “random-seeming reminders.”  Otherwise it would start the cycle towards forgetting, like waiting to get gas when I feel like it.

 

If the actual, deep-down purpose of the agreement is to get me to want to do something I’m only doing for someone else enough that I occasionally and spontaneously think of it, that’s highly likely to fail.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Is it beyond asexuals to come up with anything they're okay with themselves and just do it?

They’re probably already DOING the things they’ve come up with by themselves and are okay with.

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