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ryn2

Another comparison...

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Telecaster68

Deal breaker means its absence breaks the deal. 

 

Any one of those things being absent would be enough. It has to be eight of eight, and it doesn't matter which one is missing.

 

If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be a dealbreaker, they'd be a 'really important but details negotiable'.

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ryn2

The above is also why this is tricky for me, personally, I’m seeing... I’m more of a “can I/we adjust/negotiate?” person than a “deal-breaker” person, so coming up against deal-breakers always catches me off-guard.  I tend to feel like the other person is being arbitrarily rigid and - probably in part because my job involves removing barriers - think there must be room to shift somewhere.

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Philip027
1 minute ago, vega57 said:

If someone left you because of your lack of money, I'm willing to bet that you would be confused if they initially told you that "money isn't everything".

Bingo.

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, vega57 said:

If someone left you because of your lack of money, I'm willing to bet that you would be confused if they initially told you that "money isn't everything".

No, I wouldn't be confused. I'd understand that while there was a lot of good things about our relationship (these are the other bits that constitute 'everything), the absence of money affected the rest of the relationship so much that it wasn't bearable for them any more.

 

If on the other hand they meant 'no more diamond rings? kthxbi' then, yes, clearly money would be everything for them.

 

Maybe the root of this difference in understanding is that asexuals don't see why the absence of sex must affect the rest of the relationship, and sexuals don't see how it can't. The way the effect bleeds into the rest of the relationship is why it's a dealbreaker.

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ryn2
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

The above is also why this is tricky for me, personally, I’m seeing... I’m more of a “can I/we adjust/negotiate?” person than a “deal-breaker” person, so coming up against deal-breakers always catches me off-guard.  I tend to feel like the other person is being arbitrarily rigid and - probably in part because my job involves removing barriers - think there must be room to shift somewhere.

By above I meant my post above, but Tele’s post works too.

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ryn2

Hence why I think it would work better for people who do have deal-breakers to express that very clearly.  To me the implications of “money isn’t everything” and “[money criteria] is a deal-breaker” are very different.  Even if that’s not true for everyone, the fact that it’s true for some people means using “everything” phrasing raises the potential of misunderstanding.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Hence why I think it would work better for people who do have deal-breakers to express that very clearly.  To me the implications of “money isn’t everything” and “[money criteria] is a deal-breaker” are very different.  Even if that’s not true for everyone, the fact that it’s true for some people means using “everything” phrasing raises the potential of misunderstanding.

... and why sexuals aren't the ones saying 'sex is everything'...

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Homer
8 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

If you will leave over that one thing when everything else is fine, what else is there to be assumed, exactly?  It obviously matters enough.

If you have a cooking recipe with 8 ingredients and you forget to add one of those 8, it can ruin the whole thing. No matter how well you picked and assembled the other 7.

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vega57
21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Yeah, I agree. But asexuals (not all, just frequently) interpret it as being the only dealbreaker, despite sexuals explaining it's one of a bunch of things that are dealbreakers.

But sex is often the ONLY deal breaker they talk about.  For example, I've never heard a sexual say that they would leave their partner if their partner for other reasons other than sex.  

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Telecaster68
Just now, vega57 said:

But sex is often the ONLY deal breaker they talk about.  For example, I've never heard a sexual say that they would leave their partner if their partner for other reasons other than sex.  

You will hear other reasons if you visit boards that aren't mostly concerned with sexuality. Money, mental illness, etc.

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Philip027
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

No, I wouldn't be confused. I'd understand that while there was a lot of good things about our relationship (these are the other bits that constitute 'everything), the absence of money affected the rest of the relationship so much that it wasn't bearable for them any more.

So it's totally okay with you for the other person, a relationship partner, to lie to you, basically.  Or at the very least not be upfront with how important the money issue actually was to them, until it's already too late.  Maybe that's cool for you and your relationships, but a lot of people don't appreciate being left in the dark like that.

 

I actually had this sort of thing happen to me before (although money was not the focal point, but I was still basically led to believe things were okay when they actually weren't) and this ended up being my single most devastating relationship experience because for a while I no longer felt like I could really trust what other people say, or how "okay" with me they really were.  For me at least, this was confusing and upsetting as fuck.  This was almost 4 years ago and I still face repercussions of the event to this day.

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Telecaster68
Just now, Philip027 said:

So it's totally okay with you for the other person, a relationship partner, to lie to you, basically.  Or at the very least not be upfront with how important the money issue actually was to them, until it's already too late.  Maybe that's cool for you and your relationships, but a lot of people don't appreciate being left in the dark like that.

 

I actually had this sort of thing happen to me before (although money was not the focal point, but I was still basically led to believe things were okay when they actually weren't) and this ended up being my single most devastating relationship experience because for a while I no longer felt like I could really trust what other people say, or how "okay" with me they really were.  For me at least, this was confusing and upsetting as fuck.  This was almost 4 years ago and I still face repercussions of the event to this day.

wut?

 

You're very keen to label complexities as 'lying'.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

... and why sexuals aren't the ones saying 'sex is everything'...

If someone says “sex is a deal-breaker” I would be very clear what that meant.

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Philip027
8 minutes ago, Homer said:

If you have a cooking recipe with 8 ingredients and you forget to add one of those 8, it can ruin the whole thing. No matter how well you picked and assembled the other 7.

I am quite aware of this.  All I am asking is for other people to actually admit it when this is the case, not try to hide behind a "isn't everything" statement that basically claims the opposite, like its absence wouldn't ruin their recipe, when it actually would.

 

I don't think this is an unreasonable request.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, vega57 said:

But sex is often the ONLY deal breaker they talk about.  For example, I've never heard a sexual say that they would leave their partner if their partner for other reasons other than sex.  

In fairness Tele did supply a fairly long personal list of deal-breakers farther up the thread.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

If someone says “sex is a deal-breaker” I would be very clear what that meant.

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't take it to mean 'I only care about sex', which seems to be Philip's position.

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max9701
8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Hence why I think it would work better for people who do have deal-breakers to express that very clearly.  To me the implications of “money isn’t everything” and “[money criteria] is a deal-breaker” are very different.  Even if that’s not true for everyone, the fact that it’s true for some people means using “everything” phrasing raises the potential of misunderstanding.

True, but there are things that most people will assume are dealbreakers.

 

Money isn't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with living like a pauper. Looks aren't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with a complete and embarrassing lack of care for appearance. And sex isn't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with celibacy. 

 

It may seem unfair, but the reality is that well over 90% of the population is sexual in some way, and they assume sex to be part of a committed relationship. That's not going to change.

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ryn2
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't take it to mean 'I only care about sex', which seems to be Philip's position.

Honestly, I would take it to mean “I care so much about sex that it might as well be the only thing I care about,” but that would just be my personal opinion.

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Philip027
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

wut?

 

You're very keen to label complexities as 'lying'.

Saying "sex isn't everything" will get interpreted as you thinking sex isn't a big deal.  (Otherwise why would you say it?)  That's what people mean when they make such a statement.  If it was a big deal, usually they'd say something else, maybe more like "sex is very important to me"

 

Splitting up over it indicates that, actually, to you, it IS a big deal.  Believe it or not, most would call this hypocrisy, or lying.  I know I would.

 

Not getting why this is so difficult.

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vega57
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In fairness Tele did supply a fairly long personal list of deal-breakers farther up the thread.

And at what point did Teke present his list of deal breakers to his wife?  I also have  list of deal breakers, and I presented them (7 in all) to my Kate husband well before we even got together.  He broke every single one if them.  

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Honestly, I would take it to mean “I care so much about sex that it might as well be the only thing I care about,” but that would just be my personal opinion.

Would you think the same about 'trust is a dealbreaker', or 'not being a racist is a dealbreaker?

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, max9701 said:

True, but there are things that most people will assume are dealbreakers.

 

Money isn't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with living like a pauper. Looks aren't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with a complete and embarrassing lack of care for appearance. And sex isn't everything, but that doesn't mean a partner will put up with celibacy. 

 

It may seem unfair, but the reality is that well over 90% of the population is sexual in some way, and they assume sex to be part of a committed relationship. That's not going to change.

I’m just saying the assuming gets people in trouble.  There’s probably only partial overlap between the three examples above (money, looks, sex), so right there as much as 30% of the population might assume differently.  Saying “not supporting yourself, not maintaining basic hygiene, and expecting me to be celibate are all deal-breakers [or critical, mandatory, etc.] to me” is much less subject to interpretation.

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Telecaster68
Just now, Philip027 said:

Saying "sex isn't everything" will get interpreted as you thinking sex isn't a big deal.  (Otherwise why would you say it?)  That's what people mean when they make such a statement.  If it was a big deal, usually they'd say something else, maybe more like "sex is very important to me"

 

Splitting up over it indicates that, actually, to you, it IS a big deal.  Believe it or not, most would call this hypocrisy, or lying.  I know I would.

 

Not getting why this is so difficult.

Sexuals are not saying 'sex isn't everything'. They're saying it's a dealbreaker, or yes 'sex is very important to me'. Some asexuals are interpreting that as 'never having sex is fine', for some reason.

 

As Max said though, at least 90% of the population would never consider celibacy as a potential element of a relationship, so the difference between it being very important or dealbreaker aren't really relevant. 

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Philip027
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't take it to mean 'I only care about sex', which seems to be Philip's position.

Nope.  Just want the ones who do care enough about sex to actually admit to how important it is to them, not hide being ambiguous wording that will have most people thinking the opposite.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Saying “not supporting yourself, not maintaining basic hygiene, and expecting me to be celibate are all deal-breakers [or critical, mandatory, etc.] to me” is much less subject to interpretation.

So if that hadn't been spelled out, and a few years in, you stopped washing or any other kind of hygiene, and your partner said this needed to change for the relationship to continue, that would be a totally unreasonable shocking demand to you?

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Would you think the same about 'trust is a dealbreaker', or 'not being a racist is a dealbreaker?

Yes, because a deal-breaker is clearly something I must sustain (or not sustain, depending on what it is) to continue the relationship.  Some deal-breakers might be very easy for me to avoid but that’s still what they mean for me.  Anything with zero wiggle room may as well be a sole factor.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Nope.  Just want the ones who do care enough about sex to actually admit to how important it is to them, not hide being ambiguous wording that will have most people thinking the opposite.

Which bit of 'sex is very important to me' is ambiguous?

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

As Max said though, at least 90% of the population would never consider celibacy as a potential element of a relationship, so the difference between it being very important or dealbreaker aren't really relevant

Clearly they are or none of us

- sexual or ace - would be in our current situations.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Yes, because a deal-breaker is clearly something I must sustain (or not sustain, depending on what it is) to continue the relationship.  Some deal-breakers might be very easy for me to avoid but that’s still what they mean for me.  Anything with zero wiggle room may as well be a sole factor.

So to you, they're saying 'trust is all I care about' and 'not being a racist is all I care about'?

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Which bit of 'sex is very important to me' is ambiguous?

It wasn’t ambiguous on its own.  It becomes more so when someone then says “but I’m not breaking up over sex.”

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