umbasa Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 They've been popping up a lot more of late with many an article now written about this very hateful group. The implication of their rise and what it might mean for us asexuals never dawned on me before... but that was until a conversation I had the other day. Basically, on the umpteenth time of explaining to another person about what it means to be an asexual their reply was "Like that Incel?" Now, that stopped me in my tracks. Dead. I then got a little angry but managed to compose myself. I had an immediate urge to spit out "fuck you" but thankfully I kept my mouth shut tight. And so I've been thinking about this exchange for a couple of days now. I'm still not sure what to think of it. It's probably a one-off, very infuriating misunderstanding but I do worry if one person came to that assumption maybe more people will start to assume the same. The way I see it, visibility of asexuals is already tough enough. But if the idea of "this group = no sex" becomes more attributed to Incel (since they make the news more and more), I do wonder if we won't be automatically dragged into their circle whenever the public sees, thinks or talks about asexuality. And what that might mean for our goals to be more visible and accepted. I know, I know. We are nothing alike and not being able to have sex despite wanting it is not the same as having no sexual attraction / desire. But given how it is already difficult enough to get people to understand asexuality, I have to admit I don't fully trust the public to now start to discern the very big difference between the two. Am I alone in this? Has no one else shared this worry? Link to post Share on other sites
Bronztrooper Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 It comes off, to me, as being similar to the whole thing about lumping homosexuals and pedophiles into the same category despite nothing really being the same between them. I feel like this is a valid concern because, honestly, I'm not sure if the Incel community is larger than the asexual community or not. They're definitely more vocal, though, which makes things even more difficult. I mean, anti-LGBT+ people already don't think of asexuality as being a thing in the first place, and there are a lot of vocal pricks in the LGBT+ community that claim that asexuals are really just straight, so the misconception that asexual is synonymous with Incel will only serve to make things worse. I feel like we need to be more vocal to try and prevent this, but I don't know if it'll happen. Link to post Share on other sites
crystalheart Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 the whole incel thing makes me sick to my stomach - you have people in our community who don't want sex or need sex, and we're absolutely fine, so how on the other end do we have men that feel so entitled to sex that they would kill women when they don't get it? Link to post Share on other sites
wayward_zombie Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 i didnt know what incel meant but honestly yes i agree the whole thing it's pretty worrying and creepy by itself, even more when people start associating that with asexuality 😥 Link to post Share on other sites
Grimalkin Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Ohhh man, incels. For a start, I wouldn't worry too much about helping people differentiate between them and us. The conversation could go something like this: "Asexual? Like those incels?" "No, incels are whiny douchenozzles 'involuntary celibates' who are obsessed with sex and women, whom they despise. Asexuals don't experience sexual attraction, and so typically do not want sex. So, you know, we're unlikely to take our car and run over a bunch of people because we aren't 'getting any.'" ------------ Obviously, incels can be dangerous. We've seen this on the news. But as a whole, they are unsupported and either ignored or looked at in disgust in America. They're a fringe group whose behavior isn't tolerated publicly, so they withdraw to the internet to wallow in their communities. And stranger still, they don't even support each other. They just hate, and hate, and hate. Many of them are young, too, which makes it sad that they've gotten caught up in all this nonsense. A lot of it may be due to societal pressures for boys to have sex from an early age. Some of these "incels" are 17, 18- really young. And these people, egged on by expectations for men, have convinced them that there's something wrong with them because they aren't getting laid. There's not much we can do about them. I think there's only two feasible options here. 1) We leave established incel communities alone because they are sick individuals who will tear you apart if you talk to them. We fight back in real life by creating clear awareness for asexuality. And 2) We watch out for young men/boys in our own lives and families who may be angry or depressed, and we show them love and listen to their problems, in the hopes that we may steer them clear of future misery. (The more insidious problem is Red Pillers and MGTOWs, but that's a whole other ball of wax.) Link to post Share on other sites
Joe the Stoic Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 In general, I think it is good not to get angry when people get confused like that. Getting angry and defensive only makes us look insecure in our views about asexuality. Link to post Share on other sites
kiaroskuro Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Incels are not much talked about in my country's media and until now I never heard that people actually lump asexuals and incels together. But I definitely understand your concern. Oh by the way, I just found out that incels have their own flag. I mean, honestly? WTF?! Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Incels are most likely in the news because of one event, and when the one person who has used them as justification for their criminal conduct gets brought before a court, and hopefully receives the correct sentence, chances are they'll fade back to being a small group on the Internet Link to post Share on other sites
Nylocke Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I'm actually not fimiliar with the term "incels" but I'm guessing it has to do with a medical condition which if someone implied that I was "medically asexual" then I would indeed by offended. Its one thing if someone is merely uneducated and you can take the time to educate them but to assume something so ignorant is really annoying x_x Link to post Share on other sites
Grimalkin Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Nylocke said: I'm actually not fimiliar with the term "incels" but I'm guessing it has to do with a medical condition which if someone implied that I was "medically asexual" then I would indeed by offended. Its one thing if someone is merely uneducated and you can take the time to educate them but to assume something so ignorant is really annoying x_x Oh, no. No, it's far worse than that. It's a name angry men coined for themself, and it stands for "involuntary celibacy." Yes, as in, they're celibate because they can't get women to have sex with them. And they are BITTER about this. It's one of the most hate-filled internet communities I've come across. Link to post Share on other sites
Nylocke Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Just now, Grimalkin said: Oh, no. No, it's far worse than that. It's a name angry men coined for themself, and it stands for "involuntary celibacy." Yes, as in, they're celibate because they can't get women to have sex with them. And they are BITTER about this. It's one of the most hate-filled internet communities I've come across. Geez that is sad, you mean these bozos actually came up with a name for themselves??? Maybe if they learned how to respect women then they can actually get a woman to actually talk to them. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jetsun Milarepa Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 It seems women are under attack from all angles at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
(A)yy Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 For fuck sake if you search incel flag into google and look on images the first thing that comes up has pride flag in the title. And it looks so similar to the asexuality flag, being unable to have sex isn’t the same as an orientation, if you think about it asexuality and “incels” are exactly opposites, asexuals don’t care about sex, incels are the opposite. Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I don't have much for social circles. And to be perfectly honest, I don't think I'll have a random conversation with a stranger in person about my sexuality, likely ever. But I can understand the worry. I'm an anti-social sort of person. Out here when the word anti-social is used, most people associate that with the negative definition of it. Anti-social psychopaths and the like. It'll probably die down. Incels are in the news right now because the media's keeping them there. Attention span of the public at large is pretty short. Link to post Share on other sites
Ksenia Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I agree with James Cantor's notion about incels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_fyRALOGYs Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I see it as no different than blaming the goth, metal culture for harboring school shooters. Or blaming hip hop for black on black crimes. I am surprised they didn't blame his mental illness (the Torontonian responsible for the van attack). It's so much easier to point at outside sources. To me anyone who would do this is beyond explanation. Incels are the way they are by choice. You don't choose asexuality. Not sure why anyone would make such a choice to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites
InariYana Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I've been lurking on incels forums for a while (yeah, what a hobby, I know!) and I went from 100% hating them (due to violent, misogynistic views, also racism and common amongst them fascination with underage girls) to a kind of... some kind of understanding, at least towards a part of their group that's less horrible. A few incels actually expressed that they wished they were asexual, others keep asking people if there are pills for getting rid of sexual drive or attraction because they can't live like that. They have intrusive thoughts about sex, their bodies get aroused day in day out, frustration grows stronger... some want it all switched off, permanently. I'd feel seriously bad living like that, with my biological drives... driving me mad. I seriously feel lucky for not having even a hint of this kind of intense pressure in my life. It's a big problem for them and many are really physically unattractive, very poor, suffer from mental health issues and feel like they will never ever find a partner to start a family with or even someone to have sex with them occasionally, unless it's a prostitute who will never desire them in a sexual way. They call themselves "genetic trash" as well, wish they have been aborted, it's really sad. Of course, the way some of them cope with those feelings is absolutely horrible and unacceptable... So how they end up is often either deep depression (and I can relate to that) or full-on hate, aggression and drifting towards paraphilias, which messes them up big time. All that tension must feel really bad to a sexual person, with a strong sex drive, who lives in this sex-saturated world telling you if you're not having plenty of sex (especially as a guy) you're either weird, repressed or a total loser. Their own families mock them and are cruel to them sometimes. There's zero affection in their life. Zero emotional outlet, apart from those forums (some users ARE supportive towards each other, it's not all hate). I can't imagine feeling this sexual tension myself, but it can't be easy. Most people are literally programmed to desire sex, many have a strong drive to reproduce too and all incels get as advice is "go to the gym, get plastic surgery, smile more, approach women more often, get yourself a mail-order bride, buy a car" and that's not very helpful. They get rejected all the time and ridiculed. They are also often bitterly disillusioned with modern, shallow and looks-obsessed dating culture and I can't blame them - it's sh*t. So yeah, I do have a bit of understanding now. I don't think many people would confuse incels and asexuals - we are so, so different. I guess maybe we need to spread awareness more if we see people getting confused. Link to post Share on other sites
Joe the Stoic Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 22 hours ago, (A)yy said: For fuck sake if you search incel flag into google and look on images the first thing that comes up has pride flag in the title. And it looks so similar to the asexuality flag, being unable to have sex isn’t the same as an orientation, if you think about it asexuality and “incels” are exactly opposites, asexuals don’t care about sex, incels are the opposite. To be fair, the AVEN flag is hideous. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 The question I have to ask is this. Given how sexualised our society is, has anyone of whatever gender, orientation et al, who wants sex but ain't getting it ever asked themselves why? Granted there will be some whose sexual partner preferences are of such a minority that it may take some searching, but even where prostitution is illegal, if you want it you'll find it. I'll accept quite happily that social integration issues, ASD etc mean that some people have communication issues so they don't get what they want. But this proportion of the population isn't rising. Its not the rise of incels, its folk being aware that these people exist Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I think there's another group of people -- not an "official" group -- analogous to incels: men who are angry/upset/resentful that no woman has ever loved them. I occasionally see posts on AVEN that express that. They sometimes attribuate that to women being selfish or not serious in looking for love. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 14 hours ago, InariYana said: They get rejected all the time and ridiculed. Rejection comes with the territory of approaching women. If you can't handle this part of it, you shouldn't be dating. It doesn't matter how the guy looks like (a high volume of women, will appreciate confidence more than looks). They will get rejected. I find men who get ridiculed, are often approaching women in an inappropriate way. I.E In an insanely pushy, and demanding way, only for her to cut him down to size. There aren't too many women who'll deliberately be mean. Most just won't respond. If you get offended by that--you're not cut for dating. Its impossible not to be rejected by many, while dating. People in dating realms are insanely picky. Many are unrealistic with their expectations. Online will have men rejected thousands of times, easily. I see a lot of men who feel entitled to the attention they are not receiving. If I went on a couple dates with a woman, and she tells me she's not feeling me, I'll still tell her I appreciated her time and swallow my pride. These guys by the sounds of them, would be highly insulted and would demand to know why. I've actually dated women like this. Get over yourself. Also, I can guarantee you these guys aren't hitting on average to ugly looking women on these websites. They're being equally shallow. I have a very hard time feeling sorry for people. I understand their frustration, but their anger from the sounds of them, is self-inflicted. Link to post Share on other sites
InariYana Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Perspektiv said: I see a lot of men who feel entitled to the attention they are not receiving. That's very true, I know it from my own dating experience, sadly. People's expectations are often crazy too... how can you expect so much from a person you barely know? There's so much pushy and intense behaviour that it would scare anyone, really. They want fast results and they want them now. And yes, some incels wouldn't even consider dating someone who they give a looks score of 4/10 (how 'nice', this scoring system, ugh)... when at the same time they see themselves as 2/10. Still, there are some incels on those forums who are simply extremely shy, or socially inept and it's sad that they choose to soak up all this hatred and anger... or alternatively keep trying to learn PUA tricks which are borderline rapey. They have no idea how to date women in this day and age and I don't know... maybe some mentoring from older men would help? But would they listen? We'll be losing more and more boys to this, I fear It's super easy to find these groups on the internet and they offer simple (but wrong and horrible!) explanations and emotional outlet and may influence many young men in such a bad way. Link to post Share on other sites
Grimalkin Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, InariYana said: That's very true, I know it from my own dating experience, sadly. People's expectations are often crazy too... how can you expect so much from a person you barely know? There's so much pushy and intense behaviour that it would scare anyone, really. They want fast results and they want them now. And yes, some incels wouldn't even consider dating someone who they give a looks score of 4/10 (how 'nice', this scoring system, ugh)... when at the same time they see themselves as 2/10. Still, there are some incels on those forums who are simply extremely shy, or socially inept and it's sad that they choose to soak up all this hatred and anger... or alternatively keep trying to learn PUA tricks which are borderline rapey. They have no idea how to date women in this day and age and I don't know... maybe some mentoring from older men would help? But would they listen? We'll be losing more and more boys to this, I fear It's super easy to find these groups on the internet and they offer simple (but wrong and horrible!) explanations and emotional outlet and may influence many young men in such a bad way. I don't know if we're necessarily losing more boys to this than before. The internet allows previously unconnected people to connect, and bitter people have always existed. It's probably a combination of access to a community, anonymity, and a pushback towards modern feminism. It can be difficult to read about all this hate and bitterness, but humanity as a whole is still doing pretty good. Link to post Share on other sites
FaerieFate Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Society likes to condemned incels with their words and baby them with their actions. At one of the most recent school shootings when they first aired about it they were calling the kid a monster. Then the moment it came out he was rejected repeatedly by the same girl for a month they labeled him the victim. It's a phenomenonI can't understand. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 8 hours ago, InariYana said: There's so much pushy and intense behaviour that it would scare anyone, really. Plus if you're an experienced dater, you will feel the desperation vibes. They'll literally radiate through a person. I mean, I'm a guy--if I feel desperation in someone, I run. Its instinctive. That, or someone clingy. I can't deal with it. These people probably radiate desperation, which doesn't help their case. 8 hours ago, InariYana said: They want fast results and they want them now. If a woman talks children and marriage and we're not two dates in--I run. I as a result, can understand a woman doing the same for a guy pushing hard for sex after 5 minutes of conversation. Plus, if she's much smaller in size, she doesn't stand a chance should he become overly aggressive. I've heard so many nightmare date stories from women. So don't blame them of avoiding desperate feeling guys like the plague to avoid that level of drama. If they're that bad from the start, it will be them demanding an update every 5 minutes once you're an item once they have control of you. Threatening to kill you, or themselves should you dare leave, as they own you. You're their property. I've dated a couple women who dated men like this, and had to live down what those men did. Thanks, a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
Grimalkin Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 That's the problem, social interaction is a skill that everyone needs to practice to be good at, and Incels sure aren't doing themselves any favors by spending all their time in the Incel communities. Side note @Perspektiv, I know we've only met each other just now but I think I'm in love with you and I feel like it would be great if we got married and had five or six children, I'm not picky, maybe only four kids if two of them are twins, and I hope you're not allergic to cats because I want eight, xoxo. /s Link to post Share on other sites
Bronztrooper Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 When I went on my first date with my girlfriend back in high school (which was at homecoming), some guy came up to us while we were talking away from everyone else and asked her who she came with. When she pointed to me, the guy got visibly angry and, iirc, challenged me to a fight over it. I told him that it wasn't my fault she didn't want to go with him, so there was no point in fighting about it, and I think that just annoyed him even more. Throughout the rest of the night, he came back over several times in what I assumed was some half-baked attempt to 'win her over'. I feel like that guy may qualify as being like the incels, but maybe I'm wrong? That's really my only experience with anything like that, but then, I haven't really been 'putting myself out there', so... Link to post Share on other sites
Holy Ghost Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Humans have survived this long by socializing and if the incels like their communities, good on them. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Grimalkin said: That's the problem, social interaction is a skill that everyone needs to practice to be good at, and Incels sure aren't doing themselves any favors by spending all their time in the Incel communities. I actually was approached by a woman showing me a diamond ring by the 2nd date (on her phone) as we're eating. I laughed (uncomfortably), and she still looked serious. I then inquired, why the ring. She asked me what I thought of it: "Its nice" Yeah? "Yeah, I like it" Its worth 4, 700$. "Wow. Dude must really love you..." You don't think a woman deserves a ring like that? "Deserves, and will get are *very* different things." So what if she demanded it? "She's free to buy it. I won't stop her". She then asks if I want to meet her parents. I say no. The crazy part, is in the end I had apparently passed her "test" with flying colors O_o (I think this was a twisted honesty test). She thought I was funny. I was dead serious O_o Point I'm making is there are highly socially awkward people of both genders. I'm a strong believer if someone is realistic in their expectations, that there will be a significant other out there for them. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 53 minutes ago, Bronztrooper said: I feel like that guy may qualify as being like the incels, but maybe I'm wrong? To me, just sounds like an insanely insecure male. More of a macho type, who always has to display their manliness or fear the revoking of their man cards. That's more the type who'll brag about having sex all the time. Has to sound like a horndog at all times, or risk appearing like a "sissy". That's bad for man cards. Same guy in a club or bar, will catch you checking out his "woman", and he has to fight to defend her honor. "Guess who'll be f-ng your girl, tonight?" would result in a shooting or stabbing, with a guy like this. Aaaaaaand that's why I didn't last long in the clubbing scene or night life, in general. A guy whistles at a woman I'm with, and I'm flattered. Maybe its just me. O_o Link to post Share on other sites
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