Non-binary is just the beginning

[Dawning]

I think that you have valid concerns, so much so that I think you should start an official thread to discuss this issue... rather than having it on a thread about me, if you see what I mean. Yes, I'm the OP, and for the record I'm not questioning, I'm 100% certain that I'm non-binary; I was fine with it before, and I'm fine with it now, but it's good to have a name for the feelings, or mostly lack thereof, that I had just assumed for my entire life was something really weird and abnormal about me. 

[Celyn: The Lutening]

1 hour ago, henshin said:

just wanting to present in a more masculine or feminine way that social custom dictates and not really giving a faff about pronouns.

I can vouch that I thought I was just gender-non-conforming, until I realised that I wanted to change my name and pronouns.

As one of the trans community, I totally agree with everything you said. Ultimately, the choice being made is - how do you want society to see you? Most trans people say that if society didn't gender people/bodies, or if they lived in the wilderness on their own, they wouldn't care.

[Karst]

On 7/11/2018 at 10:15 PM, Celyn said:

I can vouch that I thought I was just gender-non-conforming, until I realised that I wanted to change my name and pronouns.

As one of the trans community, I totally agree with everything you said. Ultimately, the choice being made is - how do you want society to see you? Most trans people say that if society didn't gender people/bodies, or if they lived in the wilderness on their own, they wouldn't care.

This explanation makes so much sense. Thank you, @Celyn.

[no-longer-in-use]

I know I'm super late to this thread, but I'll respond anyway.

 

On 6/7/2018 at 12:55 AM, Dawning said:

And here’s a great article describing some of the reasons why this term is superior to any of those that suggest a neutral or nonexistent gender (other than that they define non-binary people in relation to the binary):

 

I think it's kind of hurtful to say that any term is "superior" to another. Just because you don't identify with a certain label doesn't mean it's inferior to the label(s) you do identify with.

 

That said, I think it's great that you've found some terms you identify with. You seem like an interesting person for sure.

[Celyn: The Lutening]

@Coddiwomple good point. A better way to phrase it would be "here are some of the reasons I prefer this term."

Because you're eight, identity terms can be very wishy-washy. I wish they weren't because my Aspie brain likes rigid categories, but humans are too complex for that.

[Dawning]

28 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

I know I'm super late to this thread, but I'll respond anyway.

 

I think it's kind of hurtful to say that any term is "superior" to another. Just because you don't identify with a certain label doesn't mean it's inferior to the label(s) you do identify with.

 

That said, I think it's great that you've found some terms you identify with. You seem like an interesting person for sure.

I think you're trying a little too hard to find something to be offended by, LOL… I didn't say that the term was superior, I said that the ARTICLE was about why the term was superior. I don't know where you live, but I'm in America, and we have free speech, the right to have and express an opinion without toning it down in case others disagree; I support the author's right to say anything they want any way they want to, and if they want to alter that article to say that every other terms sucks, and everybody else is stupid, or whatever, I support that as well. I won't agree with it, but there are BILLIONS of people on the internet, and I don't waste one second of my time worrying about someone posting something I disagree with on their website, blog, Tumblr, social media, etc.… an attitude that I highly recommend to you and everybody else.

 

We can't make our gender and orientation terms a sacred cow that no one can touch. We need to be able to be disagreed with, and come across things we don't care for, without being hurt or making an issue, because if we can't, we're going to be seen as crybabies and malcontents, special snowflakes who just want attention… and that will prevent us from being seen as having legitimate differences from cis-het people, and legitimate issues with the way the cis-het world works.

 

The world has changed so much in my lifetime. Until very recently, I was just weird. Now, I'm "interesting"… and suddenly on the bleeding edge of societal change!

[no-longer-in-use]

@Dawning Okay? I know you have free speech, and I wasn't trying to restrict it. I was expressing my dislike for the way you phrased your sentence, because I have read the article you mentioned, and nowhere in it does the writer say that the word maverique is superior to other words. They just said it fit them better than other words--unless I misinterpreted their meaning in some way.

6 minutes ago, Dawning said:

there are BILLIONS of people on the internet, and I don't waste one second of my time worrying about someone posting something I disagree with on their website, blog, Tumblr, social media, etc.… an attitude that I highly recommend to you and everybody else.

I'm not worried, I assure you. But if someone says something that I disagree with, I can and will call them out as I see fit. Just like you have free speech to say what you want, I have free speech to disagree with you.

 

7 minutes ago, Dawning said:

We can't make our gender and orientation terms a sacred cow that no one can touch. We need to be able to be disagreed with, and come across things we don't care for, without being hurt or making an issue, because if we can't, we're going to be seen as crybabies and malcontents, special snowflakes who just want attention… and that will prevent us from being seen as having legitimate differences from cis-het people, and legitimate issues with the way the cis-het world works.

2

I don't see what this has to do with what I said.

 

11 minutes ago, Dawning said:

The world has changed so much in my lifetime. Until very recently, I was just weird. Now, I'm "interesting"… and suddenly on the bleeding edge of societal change!

For the record, I meant "you seem interesting" as a compliment.

[Dawning]

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

@Dawning Okay? I know you have free speech, and I wasn't trying to restrict it. I was expressing my dislike for the way you phrased your sentence, because I have read the article you mentioned, and nowhere in it does the writer say that the word maverique is superior to other words. They just said it fit them better than other words--unless I misinterpreted their meaning in some way.

I'm not worried, I assure you. But if someone says something that I disagree with, I can and will call them out as I see fit. Just like you have free speech to say what you want, I have free speech to disagree with you.

 

I don't see what this has to do with what I said.

 

For the record, I meant "you seem interesting" as a compliment.

I wasn't talking about my free speech, I was talking about the free speech of the author of the article. I stand by my analysis of the meaning of the article, and more to the point, I WAS referring to the article, not making my own value judgment on the relative merits of terms. If you're going to focus on people's sentence phrasing, you're in for a lot of stress and wasted time on the internet, in addition to making false accusations like you have done here. If it's your intention to take time out of your life to post against everyone you disagree with, you're going to be a very busy little bee, LOL, especially if you're going to include months-old threads in your quest to straighten out the world.

 

You don't see what my reference to disagreeing and being hurt has to do with what you've been saying? 

 

I was assuming that you meant "interesting" as a compliment. I used quotes because I was quoting you, not stating my own opinion of my level of interestingness. 

[no-longer-in-use]

4 minutes ago, Dawning said:

I wasn't talking about my free speech, I was talking about the free speech of the author of the article. I stand by my analysis of the meaning of the article, and more to the point, I WAS referring to the article, not making my own value judgment on the relative merits of terms. If you're going to focus on people's sentence phrasing, you're in for a lot of stress and wasted time on the internet, in addition to making false accusations like you have done here.

 

All right. I don't really want to argue about it, to be honest.

 

2 minutes ago, Dawning said:

If it's your intention to take time out of your life to post against everyone you disagree with, you're going to be a very busy little bee, LOL, especially if you're going to include months-old threads in your quest to straighten out the world.

I don't. I just happened to be reading this thread and thought I'd bring up my concerns with your wording. I didn't mean it harshly, and now that you've explained your stance I don't feel the need to discuss this more.

 

4 minutes ago, Dawning said:

You don't see what my reference to disagreeing and being hurt has to do with what you've been saying? 

 

The way you worded it was confusing to me, but at second read, I think I understand what you're saying. I am fine with being disagreed with, though--that's why I disagreed with you on your wording in the first place--and I agree with you on the sacred cow thing. But I retain my stance that making an issue over things I find offensive is a good thing. If other people call me a crybaby because of it, so be it. I'm going to call out things that I think should be called out.

 

5 minutes ago, Dawning said:

I was assuming that you meant "interesting" as a compliment. I used quotes because I was quoting you, not stating my own opinion of my level of interestingness. 

I stand corrected then.

[Dawning]

 

10 hours ago, Coddiwomple said:

...  I'm going to call out things that I think should be called out.

The part of the equation that you're missing is that no matter what you say or how you say it, there's going to be someone who doesn't like it; if everyone took your attitude, that would mean that every post would be "called out"! Is that how you would like to have YOUR forum experience, with every post you make leading to YOU being called out because somebody doesn't like what you said? Would you like someone going and looking at all of your posts for the past few months, twisting and misinterpreting your words, and publicly posting complaints and false accusations? That's a rhetorical question, of course, because NO ONE would want that; how about trying the golden rule on for size, and see if it works for you?

[no-longer-in-use]

-

[twetzel59]

On 6/7/2018 at 4:46 AM, oldsoulvocalist said:

I'm on the autism spectrum, and this is the first time ever hearing about autigender, but it makes an incredible amount of sense. I've spoken to the fact that I don't feel bodily dysphoric, but socially in terms of gender. I don't understand the attachment to gender in the way others experience it, and it's really reassuring to know that it's very possibly tied to being autistic for me. I've thought in the past that I may be happier as another gender, but after deeper introspection and more time with myself, I realized that what I feel is also outside of the binary entirely, and even outside of femininity and masculinity. I thought the term agender felt appropriate, yet I haven't really come out as anything yet (because all of this discovery has been fairly recent), and I felt as if something was missing like you have. I feel that my identities would be more comfortable for me if they weren't about the lack of other identities I feel. I also don't feel as comfortable claiming a specific term about what I identify as gender-wise, nor am I super attached to finding one that fits. It's just reassuring to know that they do/will exist. I also like that autigender, in particular, is more tied to the sense of identity in our relationship with gender rather than gender itself.

Oh my jeez.

This is me, verbatim. Wow. AMAB discontented Aspie here.

[PoeciMeta]

I'm not sure I get the concept of autigender.... As an autistic person myself, I understand that autism can influence your perception of gender, but it isn't a gender in itself, so it shouldn't be called that. IMO, saying ''my autism strongly affects my perception and experience of gender'' is clearer, easier to understand for most people. That being said, the description linked in the first post resonates with me and I think it's true for many people. However, if it's something inherent to autism to some extent, we may not need a word for it and just include it in our long list of quirks  Hopefully people will acknowledge it eventually! 

I don't get maverique either, but that's different.

 

(Personally, I feel that gender is such an alien concept to me that labels that indicate what I'm not, like trans (as in ''not cis''), non-binary and agender, are most accurate for me, and I'm quite content with them. I have dysphoria and feel the need to express and be percieved neutrally, but I think it's due to hating being gendered rather than having a neutral gender. And my gender isn't linked to my autism, since I don't have one. Both make it difficult to relate to many things gender-related ^^') 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

On 7/12/2018 at 3:15 AM, Celyn said:

I can vouch that I thought I was just gender-non-conforming, until I realised that I wanted to change my name and pronouns.

As one of the trans community, I totally agree with everything you said. Ultimately, the choice being made is - how do you want society to see you? Most trans people say that if society didn't gender people/bodies, or if they lived in the wilderness on their own, they wouldn't care.

I could only ever relate to that sentiment when I was still a freshly hatched egg though 😕 like there's been so much gaslighting, I can't live without people in my life to acknowledge my identity as non binary, as fluid and as not a woman. People gender things in society so much that I don't think I'd be me in a world without that, such a society would just be too far from my life thus far, and I also feel so suspicious of people who act like gender is no longer a big issue - they say, oh I'll accept you! What are your pronouns? In a society where people feel the need to fuss over a haircut of all things. And then they buckle under the rest of their cis companions, but still act like my gender isn't a problem for them 😕 honestly I've yet to meet a cis person who doesn't deadname and misgender me as soon as other people are involved.

 

Ok so personal realisation though I think my feelings are related to other things, because people who abused me in the past are still in my life now acting like nothing ever happened, so to me a sudden end to the gender binary without an acknowledgement of the pain it caused so many trans and non binary and otherwise gender non conforming people really would feel like gaslighting on a huge scale. I want to see a world where people come to acknowledge everyone's individual experiences with gender, and place importance on affirming and including those who are currently excluded and hurt. After that, a global system of gender would probably dissipate pretty quickly as each culture recognises that we have our unique expressions and so on, which would also require winning the fight against systemic racism, ableism and all types of LGBT+ phobias.

 

I also noticed @Dawning you made reference to the term "genderfree". That's a recent transphobic dogwhistle, it's being used by TERFs who don't want to acknowledge that they are in fact cisgender and are harassing vulnerable people. I think people should know because it's very frustrating seeing some TERF rhetoric, nowadays they go so far out of their way to deny that cisgender accurately describes a person like them who identifies with their assigned gender at birth, while also appropriating things like genderqueer flag colours.

[Dawning]

23 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I also noticed @Dawning you made reference to the term "genderfree". That's a recent transphobic dogwhistle, it's being used by TERFs who don't want to acknowledge that they are in fact cisgender and are harassing vulnerable people. I think people should know because it's very frustrating seeing some TERF rhetoric, nowadays they go so far out of their way to deny that cisgender accurately describes a person like them who identifies with their assigned gender at birth, while also appropriating things like genderqueer flag colours.

Thank you for the heads-up about that! That's a spectacular reason to not use that term!

[Dawning]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:19 AM, PoeciMeta said:

I'm not sure I get the concept of autigender.... As an autistic person myself, I understand that autism can influence your perception of gender, but it isn't a gender in itself, so it shouldn't be called that. IMO, saying ''my autism strongly affects my perception and experience of gender'' is clearer, easier to understand for most people. That being said, the description linked in the first post resonates with me and I think it's true for many people. However, if it's something inherent to autism to some extent, we may not need a word for it and just include it in our long list of quirks  Hopefully people will acknowledge it eventually! 

I don't get maverique either, but that's different.

 

(Personally, I feel that gender is such an alien concept to me that labels that indicate what I'm not, like trans (as in ''not cis''), non-binary and agender, are most accurate for me, and I'm quite content with them. I have dysphoria and feel the need to express and be percieved neutrally, but I think it's due to hating being gendered rather than having a neutral gender. And my gender isn't linked to my autism, since I don't have one. Both make it difficult to relate to many things gender-related ^^') 

For many people, gender is too important to not address it directly and specifically, so to not have a word that describes our perception of gender is problematic… as the dozens of specific gender descriptions used on this forum indicate. Also, since the majority of autistic people do NOT identify as being non-binary, much less all at exactly ONE point in the non-binary universe, it will never work for us to just say we're autistic, because that will never be an indicator of non-binary gender much less our specific gender. 

 

IMO, saying ''my autism strongly affects my perception and experience of gender'' would be absolutely meaningless for the 99.99% of people that do not participate on this forum or similar ones, because they have no idea that anything other than binary genders exist, much less the variety of genders or what they mean; even if they were the rare person who DID know that, a vague statement like this would not give the specific gender description that most non-binary people prize so highly. There's no reason for being autistic to make us disqualified from being able to specify our gender in a way of our choosing!

 

There's a disturbing trend, and it's not limited to just you, for people who already have a gender label or labels that they're satisfied with to claim that we don't need any additional labels. That's not much different from binary people claiming that we never needed any labels other than male and female! What we need is for EVERYONE to have an equal right to have terms to explain their perception of gender. If we're going to have any chance of making progress in the wider world with getting non-binary genders accepted, it's absolutely CRUCIAL that we stand together in solidarity as a group, and not to splinter into even-tinier factions with different ideas as to which labels are acceptable and who does or does not get to have a label that feels right to them.

 

It's certainly reasonable to discuss why we ourselves would or would not want a specific label or category of labels and why, but I would also say that it's NOT acceptable to claim, or even to suggest, that other people don't have the right to decide on labels for themselves, or that any label that even one person says they need to describe their own gender is unnecessary. Fair?  😀

 

[Celyn: The Lutening]

7 hours ago, Dawning said:

people who already have a gender label or labels that they're satisfied with to claim that we don't need any additional labels. That's not much different from binary people claiming that we never needed any labels other than male and female!

*LOUD APPLAUSE*

[PoeciMeta]

@Dawning Sorry, bad phrasing!

Of course I wasn't trying to invalidate other gender labels!! That woud be so disrespectful! I was speaking about my very subjective personal case and stating that ''negative'' gender labels happen to work for me, that's why I put it in brackets! 

My main point was that we should be clearer about the term ''autigender'' not being a gender in itself but a relationship with gender, as I understood in the description you had linked. The statement about being autistic would work with adding one's gender label, it's not mutually exclusive. 

''I identify as **** (possible explanation of said gender if needed), and my autism strongly affects my perception and experience of gender'' would be clearer for most people who might think that autigender is supposed to be a gender and might try to invalidate that. 

I definitely support everyone's right to claim any label that describes them and that they're comfortable with! Apologies for being unclear! 

[Dawning]

Thank you for clarifying, @PoeciMeta, and apologies for having misunderstood you! That's why it's so important that we have these sorts of conversations, so that we can truly understand each other rather than making often-wrong guesses as to what other people mean! 

 

I'm with you in not seeing autism as a gender, but the term autigender exists because some people DO see autism as their gender:

 

Autigender: A gender which can only be understood in the context of being autistic.

 

.... and more power to them if it works for them! Sometimes we need to just accept even if we don't understand, and hope that people do as much for us.

[PoeciMeta]

Don't worry @Dawning, misunderstandings are... normal to us after all >.>

 

That other definition of autigender kind of makes sense, it doesn't apply to my own gender but I think I understand it. 

I just think some labels should be explained sometimes so as not to confuse the general public that doesn't know much about gender/autism. Both NB and ND (neurodivergent) people have such a bad rep, we mustn't give them any occasion to make fun of us ._.

[Dawning]

I agree! We do unfortunately have to be prepared for some amount of ridicule, like the tired old lines about people identifying as attack helicopters, being special snowflakes, and so forth... We just need to stick to our guns, and stick together! And yes, do a great deal of explaining of terms.

 

At some point, in the same way we went from once having a bunch of different definitions of asexual to having ONE simple, solid definition that everyone uses (except on the occasional renegade site), we'll eventually have to pare down our gender definitions to something as clear and simple as possible for the use of society at large. Being autistic, I of course like the idea of putting things down with numbers, although it wouldn't surprise me if no one else in the world does. For example, instead of having a dozen different words to describe feeling female but not all the way, we could say 75% female, 25% female, whatever… This would be immediately clear to everyone. If the other portion of the gender wasn't some flavor of agender, then we could say 75% female 25% male, or  even 75% F 25% M. For people who are genderfluid and genderflux, we would need more terms, ranges and such, but it could still be done mathematically… That is if anybody would ever agree to do it, which I very much doubt, because I think numbers would seem too cold to a "normal" person.

[ElasticPlanet]

9 hours ago, Dawning said:

we could say 75% female 25% male

I've heard this from time to time. And I'm glad the people who use it have found something that works for them. For me though, it somehow manages to be too specific and not specific enough! My social gender is 0% male, 0% female. My body gender is something I'll probably never pin down, and I'm fed up of being trapped in the meat prison anyway. My presentation is a bit on the femme side. So I just picked the word (agender) that I think best describes the part of all this that I can see most clearly and find most important - the social bit.

 

I agree that the number of gender words in use might settle down over time. We're going through an explosion right now because this stuff hasn't been talked about enough before.

[PoeciMeta]

Nope @Dawning, you're not alone thinking numbers could be useful! Some people can be in unspecified places of a M/F spectrum, and genderfluid people can find it very helpful too!

Number-wise, I'm like @ElasticPlanet, 0% male and 0% female. 😊

[Dawning]

I was just reading over my original post here, and the edits, realizing how far I've come… what an amazing JOURNEY my self-definition has been! I wish I could be SURE that I have it figured out… but I'm not! Part of me wants to keep developing, but part of me wants to be done and on solid ground about myself. Does anyone who's gone through evolving gender and attraction perceptions have anything helpful to add?

[Abigail Rose]

On 2/3/2020 at 9:54 AM, Dawning said:

I was just reading over my original post here, and the edits, realizing how far I've come… what an amazing JOURNEY my self-definition has been! I wish I could be SURE that I have it figured out… but I'm not! Part of me wants to keep developing, but part of me wants to be done and on solid ground about myself. Does anyone who's gone through evolving gender and attraction perceptions have anything helpful to add?

I do not have anything to add per se. I found reading this thread did indicate some other people have had some similar thoughts as ones I have felt over the years. I can't relate to autism but that part was quite interesting. I wonder how much of the disability spectrum is being studied in this way.

I personally would rather be all spirit or soul. Flesh is messy and in my experience it has been like dragging an anchor everywhere I go. Either I fight my body, someone else for disrespecting it, or just let people have it their way since it matters more to them than to me. I'm tired of fighting. My experiences have not been the healthiest so I am not the best source for body positive concepts sorry. 

[A User]

God, I can relate a lot too!!
 

I might not use endogender

or anything like that, but it sounds about right to what i experience.

[Dawning]

I've made a major new entry about my gender journey in the header post, describing how I've now discovered that I'm…  Well, look and see! :-)