I'm not asexual but I'm dating a girl who is, how should I to about things with her?

[Telecaster68]

No, explanation is not what you describe. Explanation would be narrating how and why you find sex important to try to give the other person a way to understand more and describing your feelings. Having that closed down as 'pressure' is having your feelings dismissed. And absolutely it should be reciprocal, but frequently the ace just doesn't respond at all. 

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, bejjinks said:

Uh, not quite. To explain is to go beyond merely talking about it. To talk about it assertively means to use I statements, to express emotions, and to be willing to take no for an answer. "I would like to have sex but if you don't, I'll back off." To explain is to treat the other person like he/she doesn't understand and to assume that if he/she understood, then he/she would do what you want. "Please let me explain. I really want sex. No? You obviously don't understand. Please let me explain. I really want sex. . . ."

 

So "Let me explain" is pressure.

 

A far better way is to say, "Here is my side . . . now help me understand your side." In other words, do more listening, less explaining.

I’d consider the example you gave explaining (offering an explanation of your position), and I’d also feel pressured as the one on the receiving end (even if you meant to be balanced and non-pressuring), but I agree that the best choice of words is going to vary from person to person.

 

It’s all the underlying “baggage” around an unpleasant topic that makes any mention of it feel like pressure.

[bejjinks]

21 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

No, explanation is not what you describe. Explanation would be narrating how and why you find sex important to try to give the other person a way to understand more and describing your feelings. Having that closed down as 'pressure' is having your feelings dismissed. And absolutely it should be reciprocal, but frequently the ace just doesn't respond at all. 

No, saying "how and why you find sex important to try to give the other person a way to understand more and describing your feelings" is called assertive communication. Explanation is going above and beyond assertive communication.

[bejjinks]

20 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’d consider the example you gave explaining (offering an explanation of your position), and I’d also feel pressured as the one on the receiving end (even if you meant to be balanced and non-pressuring), but I agree that the best choice of words is going to vary from person to person.

 

It’s all the underlying “baggage” around an unpleasant topic that makes any mention of it feel like pressure.

Fair enough but don't make people feel like they have to walk on eggshells around you. Don't make people feel like they have to be so careful about what they say for fear of pressuring you. Instead, be assertive back. Tell them how you feel and why you don't even want to talk about it anymore.

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, bejjinks said:

Fair enough but don't make people feel like they have to walk on eggshells around you. Don't make people feel like they have to be so careful about what they say for fear of pressuring you. Instead, be assertive back. Tell them how you feel and why you don't even want to talk about it anymore.

I’m not saying that it’s good or justified that I’d feel pressured, just that I would.  I have anxiety.  I worry.  When things come up that threaten my sense of safety (in the broad, long-term sense, not immediate personal safety) I experience an increase in anxiety.

 

Assertively (or otherwise) stating my position back (or explaining why I don’t want to talk about it) worsens that rather than easing it.

 

That said, I’m not Tele’s wife so he doesn’t have to deal with it from me.

[ryn2]

(and I don’t get the impression Tele feels like he has to walk on eggshells around his wife; I read his initial response as more along the lines of “feeling pressured - ‘pressured’ [with big air quotes] - is the airtight excuse she offers no matter what I say”... of course, I could be wrong there)

[bejjinks]

2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m not saying that it’s good or justified that I’d feel pressured, just that I would.  I have anxiety.  I worry.  When things come up that threaten my sense of safety (in the broad, long-term sense, not immediate personal safety) I experience an increase in anxiety.

 

Assertively (or otherwise) stating my position back (or explaining why I don’t want to talk about it) worsens that rather than easing it.

 

That said, I’m not Tele’s wife so he doesn’t have to deal with it from me.

I understand your feelings. You don't have to justify them.

 

The only thing I was referring to was how you might make other people feel by not being assertive. Other people will get confused and scared never knowing why you are scared. You need to be assertive, not to make yourself feel better, but to set boundaries with others so they know how to act around you, that they know not to talk about the subject anymore.

[bejjinks]

4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

(and I don’t get the impression Tele feels like he has to walk on eggshells around his wife; I read his initial response as more along the lines of “feeling pressured - ‘pressured’ [with big air quotes] - is the airtight excuse she offers no matter what I say”... of course, I could be wrong there)

Tele is not the OP and hasn't said much about his situation. Not sure he's married although he does seem like the kind of person who at least wants to be married.

[Telecaster68]

Tele is married and if you dig into my posts you'll find a bunch of history. I don't walk on eggshells, or get assertive, or sullen, or anything much, with her. I've tried all that. She's detached and utterly unresponsive to anything. 

[bejjinks]

Pablo_Escapade98, the OP, asked the question and left, not bothering to find the answer. For the most part, everything in this thread has not been about personal examples but about general ideas. We can bring up personal examples but so far, most of us have not.

 

Here is my personal example:

 

Tracy: I've fallen in love with you. I hope you feel the same way I do. It hurts too much to be in the same area as you are if you don't feel the same way about me. If you don't love me that way, I will move to Seattle.

 

Me: I love you too but I've been hurt most by people who said they loved me. I was abused when I was five. I'm not ready to be in a sexual relationship and I'm not sure I will ever be ready for a sexual relationship.

 

Tracy: Let me explain.

 

When that occurred, I was much younger and more naive. I let her talk me into marriage.

 

Me (now that I'm wiser): NO, you don't get to explain anything. You made your feelings clear but did you listen to me? If you have to move because you need me to love you "in the same way" then my answer is, "Good luck in Seattle. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

 

My marriage to Tracy was HORRIBLE because she kept pressuring me to be sexual. That pressure only made me hate sex more.

 

@Telecaster68 I can't tell you much because I don't know your situation. However, if you need something from her that she is not willing or able to give, then no amount of explaining is going to change that. It might be in the best interest for both of you to get divorced. If you need something, it would be better to go find someone who is willing and able to give that something to you rather than to continually try to get water out of a rock. It's possible that she married you out of the naive idea that her love was the same as yours.

[ryn2]

I’m sorry you had to go through that, @bejjinks.

 

In the example Tele and I were kicking back and forth, the sexual person said something very small and specific and the ace person overgeneralized it.  My original point was that calling that out (“hey, that’s not what I meant”) and offering to clarify would be more effective than just letting the overgeneralization stand (while wishing things were different).  It wasn’t a discussion like you described, where the sexual laid down a set of conditions (and then perhaps invalidated and talked you out of your misgivings).

[bejjinks]

7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m sorry you had to go through that, @bejjinks.

 

In the example Tele and I were kicking back and forth, the sexual person said something very small and specific and the ace person overgeneralized it.  My original point was that calling that out (“hey, that’s not what I meant”) and offering to clarify would be more effective than just letting the overgeneralization stand (while wishing things were different).  It wasn’t a discussion like you described, where the sexual laid down a set of conditions (and then perhaps invalidated and talked you out of your misgivings).

But was that in this thread? As far as I could tell (only reading this thread). You and Tele weren't kicking anything back and forth. You weren't even talking to each other until the last few comments. In this thread, Tele didn't say anything small and specific so of course I'm going to generalize it.

 

Or do you mean someone else overgeneralized? It's hard to tell when you say "the sexual person" and "the ace person".

[banana monkey]

On 5/23/2018 at 3:44 PM, Telecaster68 said:

Yes, but 'communicate' is advanced as a panacea, as though all asexuals need to do is explain it's not personal, it's an orientation, etc. and it'll be fine. 

Yes, but from the OP it seems that this person is in the early stages of a relationship so if the communication happens now it may not be "fine" (they are not compatible) and so they breakup. 

[ryn2]

38 minutes ago, bejjinks said:

But was that in this thread? As far as I could tell (only reading this thread). You and Tele weren't kicking anything back and forth. You weren't even talking to each other until the last few comments. In this thread, Tele didn't say anything small and specific so of course I'm going to generalize it.

 

Or do you mean someone else overgeneralized? It's hard to tell when you say "the sexual person" and "the ace person".

The posts I’m referrring to are in this thread, midway down page 1.  The first is a small sample conversation by MrDane.  The second is a “this is more likely” reply by Tele.  The third is my reply to Tele, which is where the explaining part was first mentioned (and it’s the post Tele responded to talking about pressure).

 

The sample convos were an imaginary sexual person talking to an imaginary asexual spouse (who overgeneralized) about coffee.

 

I would quote but I’m on my phone and multi-quoting from page to page on it is a fail.

[bejjinks]

Okay, I think I can trace what happened now. It's hard to pick out the posts involved when there were so many other posts in this thread.

 

I still think people need to be more assertive and do less explaining. So here's how the coffee thing would go if people were assertive:

 

Ace: ‘do you want coffee?’

Sexual: ‘well, sure. But we can also just sit here without coffee’

Ace: ‘I’m glad you didnt expect me to make your coffee, I hate coffee and now it's clear you don't mind never having it again. We shall never speak of this again, because:pressure. '

Sexual: 'I said I want coffee. It makes me feel ____ when you dismiss the fact that I want coffee. I'm not insisting that we have coffee but please don't slam the door on the idea.'

 

Naturally, this is going to lead to some hurt feelings but it's kind of like better to get it out and deal with it then let it fester like an infected wound because you're too polite to tell her how you feel. This probably will lead to a conflict but if you stay assertive (not aggressive) then you can get through the conflict.

 

Assertiveness includes:

* Staying calm, not raising your voice

* Staying relaxed, consciously loosen your shoulders and stay seated even if she stands

* Asking clarifying questions to make sure you understand her

* Repeating what she says as a way of asking, "Am I hearing you right"

* Staying calm, not raising your voice

* Making eye contact

* Using "I" language and avoiding the use of the word "You"

* Avoiding generalizations like "always" and "never"

* Avoiding name calling

* Avoiding blaming

* Staying calm, not raising your voice

* Focusing on the issue, depersonalizing it (That does not mean replacing "I" with generic third person pronouns. That means treat the ISSUE like a problem to be solved instead of treating the PERSON like a problem person.)

* Spending more time listening and less time explaining (but still state your needs as succinctly as you can)

* Staying calm, not raising your voice

 

Also, it might help to show her this and teach her how to be assertive too.

[ryn2]

That would potentially be fine too.  My point was just that letting the overgeneralization stand without responding was guaranteed not to produce the desired result.  Tele’s was that responding, in his experience, doesn’t produce it either.

[MrDane]

...but the sexual actually would like some coffee, but in order for the coffee to be  a possible beverage that could be enjoyed together, he has to help create an atmosphere of “we dont have to have coffee”. Trouble is, if he suggests coffee, then it is putting pressure and expectation and stress and “feeling inadequate” into the situation. If he doesnt, then there is a good chance that the ace, who doesnt need coffee, will not think about getting a cup. “Catch 22”

[ryn2]

Agreed.  That’s why effective two-way communication is critical (and, believe me, I know it’s not possible to achieve that if either person doesn’t want it/lacks the skills).  Without that you never really have the conversations that might help determine if compromise is possible or if there is no workable solution within the relationship.