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Calligraphette_Coe

"He's Dying Anyway....."

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Calligraphette_Coe

I'm no fan of John McCain's, but this was just over the top. It reminded me of an exchange in the McCarthy hearings:

 

"Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness." When McCarthy tried to continue his attack, Welch angrily interrupted, "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

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Tarfeather

Well, they are very terrible people. Now in Trump's day and age, they've stopped even sugar coating how terrible they are. But as far back as Obama's day, while these people may not have said such things, they still thought like that. Personally, I appreciate it being out in the open for all to see.

 

I'm much more concerned by a person who literally was involved in torture, becoming CIA director. US is still very far away from Nazi Germany, but it's trying really hard to get there if you know what I mean. This woman should be in prison, and there's a debate going on of whether she should be confirmed or not. I know that the average American citizen isn't very bright, but this is a whole new level of insane.

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Sally
15 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

I'm much more concerned by a person who literally was involved in torture, becoming CIA director. US is still very far away from Nazi Germany, but it's trying really hard to get there if you know what I mean. This woman should be in prison, and there's a debate going on of whether she should be confirmed or not. I know that the average American citizen isn't very bright, but this is a whole new level of insane.

There is definitely debate about whether she should be confirmed.  But perhaps you don't know what the CIA is, and what it historically has been tasked with doing.  It isn't a civil rights organization; it  is a secret investigative body that uses whatever tactics are necessary to gain the information it wants.  Every country in the world has such an organization, surely including Germany, although the general public may not know about  it.   In the US, we're very aware of the CIA.   

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daveb

The CIA isn't a civil rights organization, but there are still such things as ethics and not doing things that violate common decency or law (international or domestic). Not to mention the issue of efficacy from a purely practical standpoint. If it's okay for the CIA to use torture then it's reasonable to say it's also okay any other similar organization in any other country. I think it's wrong in every case. She probably should be tried for war crimes by an international court (and probably would be if it was some other country, especially from the losing side of a war). But her nomination is in keeping with most of Trump's other nominees for various posts - the goal often seems to be to find the worst choices. I guess Trump doesn't like to surround himself with people who are more competent than he is. :P 

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Tarfeather
6 hours ago, Sally said:

But perhaps you don't know what the CIA is, and what it historically has been tasked with doing.  It isn't a civil rights organization; it  is a secret investigative body that uses whatever tactics are necessary to gain the information it wants.

So you're saying it's okay for them to violate basic human rights?

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Woodworker1968
11 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

So you're saying it's okay for them to violate basic human rights?

The CIA wouldn't be able to do its job if it wasn't able to violate human rights.

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Tarfeather
7 minutes ago, Woodworker1968 said:

The CIA wouldn't be able to do its job if it wasn't able to violate human rights.

Yeah, and the SS under Hitler wouldn't have been able to do its jobs without violating human rights. Your point?

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ThaHoward

Comparing SS to CIA is just ridicolous. 

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uhtred
7 hours ago, Woodworker1968 said:

The CIA wouldn't be able to do its job if it wasn't able to violate human rights.

I disagree.  Violating human rights may let the CIA do its job more efficiently....in the short term, but may even harm them in the long term.

 

Did the value of the information gained by torturing prisoners outweigh the hatred of the US generated when the torture became public?  Its not as if there is a set of terrorists, and once you catch them all, you win. There are people who are active terrorsits. There are people who want to commit terrorist acts. There are people who deeply hate the US and its allies but aren't ready to act.  There are those who celebrate terror but would never do so themselves, etc etc.

 

If you torture a prisoner, they may reveal the identity of an active terrorist.  But when word gets out, several people may move up the ladder toward being active terrorists. 

 

For me its even deeper.  I am opposed to torture not because it is ineffective, or causes problems.  I am opposed to torture because it is *wrong* in a deeply fundamental way.   If we commit evil, what separates us from those we are fighting. Why should I support one side and  not the other? 

 

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Homer
On 5/14/2018 at 1:17 AM, Sally said:

Every country in the world has such an organization, surely including Germany, although the general public may not know about  it.   In the US, we're very aware of the CIA.   

For the record - yes, we have such an organization (it's called the "BND") and I'd assume that most of the people are aware of their existence and what they do.

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Sally
19 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

So you're saying it's okay for them to violate basic human rights?

Of course I didn't say so.  I simply stated, in practical terms, what the CIA is and what it does.  This "so you are saying that" tactic is getting really old; I wish people would stop using it.  

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Tarfeather
5 hours ago, Sally said:

Of course I didn't say so.  I simply stated, in practical terms, what the CIA is and what it does.  This "so you are saying that" tactic is getting really old; I wish people would stop using it.  

Okay. I know what the CIA is and what it does, and I think the organization should be dismantled, and the members who have been involved in human rights violations tried before an international court, not rewarded with a promotion.

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Sally
1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

Okay. I know what the CIA is and what it does, and I think the organization should be dismantled, and the members who have been involved in human rights violations tried before an international court, not rewarded with a promotion.

Fair enough.  You stated your opinion, you didn't assume what mine is.  

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Malum

CIA and FBI have chosen a side. Which makes them corrupt and ineffective. Instead of comparing them to SS, it is more comparible to Big brother. They work with the media, and leak info against one party in particular. Then do illegal spying, by getting bullshit authorized in the secret courts. Someone is pulling these strings, and its not the people running the country. It is the people who own the government.

 

JFK was right, these secret societies will destroy America.

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