Is more common for an Ace to refer to sex in a derogatory fashion?

[James121]

1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

So your comment was either totally irrelevant (if you were referring to asexuals discussing having a  negative opinion about sex off AVEN) or completely ridiculous 

My comment wasn’t irrelevant or ridiculous....... unless it doesn’t sit well with you at which point often people will make such statements to discredit it.

Classic aven hypocrisy. All views are welcome unless they are not shared by the masses 🤭

1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

And again, to flip your comment around - you're saying that sexuals also should only be allowed to discuss the pains of celibacy among themselves. 

No because having sex is perfectly normal.

1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

No more input into threads where asexuals are discussing how much they hate having to compromise by having sex with their sexual partner or how they wish sex didn't exist because that would make their lives so much easier!

No one had to compromise. Compromising on having sex is a choice. 

[James121]

1 hour ago, InariYana said:

On the whole not having sex is perfectly normal and healthy too. 

I’m really sorry but I just don’t agree. Most adult couples in a mature relationship have sex. This is a fact.

1 hour ago, InariYana said:

Sex can be very risky. People's uncontrolled desire for sex built criminal empires based on human trafficking for sex and unimaginable suffering.

Many things in life are very risky and criminal empires are based on them. Money for example. Religion. Race and culture. Demonising sex because there are some sick people in the world is very very questionable.

 

1 hour ago, InariYana said:

Sexual drive in humans can lead to pretty messed up situations and even crime.

No no no no no. Being a psychopath is what drives the person to crime.

[James121]

2 hours ago, iff said:

But then again on the reverse, couldn't someone identify as sexual for the same reason, because they feel it is what is expected of them due to peer pressure and societal expectations.

Absolutely!

[James121]

6 hours ago, ryn2 said:

“Can be” only gives the impression that it’s not guaranteed.  There is no percentage implied.

The way it was written previously was inaccurate in my opinion.

[Telecaster68]

8 minutes ago, James121 said:

The way it was written previously was inaccurate in my opinion.

'Can' and 'some' are routinely used as handwaving to brush over inconvenient facts on AVEN.

 

People can run a mile in under four minutes.

Some people get to be president of the USA.

 

Both are true. Both are extremely unusual.

 

People can spend every day watching TV.

Some people own mobile phones.

 

Both are true. Both are pretty common.

 

'Can' and 'some' get elided into always/nearly always/hardly ever/never/everyone/nearly everyone/almost no one/no one depending on the point the poster wants to make or read.

[James121]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

'Can' and 'some' are routinely used as handwaving to brush over inconvenient facts on AVEN.

 

People can run a mile in under four minutes.

Some people get to be president of the USA.

 

Both are true. Both are extremely unusual.

 

People can spend every day watching TV.

Some people own mobile phones.

 

Both are true. Both are pretty common.

 

'Can' and 'some' get elided into always/nearly always/hardly ever/never/everyone/nearly everyone/almost no one/no one depending on the point the poster wants to make or read.

That was my point precisely. The comment I quoted said “sex can be normal and healthy”. 

That is so far off the mark it’s untrue.

Sex is very typically normal and healthy. Not having sex can (in some circumstances) also be. That’s the way I see it.

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, James121 said:

That was my point precisely. The comment I quoted said “sex can be normal and healthy”. 

That is so far off the mark it’s untrue.

Sex is very typically normal and healthy. Not having sex can (in some circumstances) also be. That’s the way I see it.

I was just using can (which is not an absolute) in place of is (which is one) to accommodate the cases where it’s not true.  I wasn’t trying to challenge what’s common.

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, James121 said:

No no no no no. Being a psychopath is what drives the person to crime.

Do you really believe only psychopaths commit crimes?

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition of normal:

 

I know AVEN collectively has a political problem with the first of those definitions, but it is simply the case that asexuality isn't normal in those terms - its not usual, typical or expected - and that's the everyday meaning that is mostly used. That doesn't mean asexuality is somehow shameful or wrong.

 

But continually trying to insist that the attitudes that come with asexuality aren't edge cases and being asexual doesn't have a general effect on other sexual attitudes (like a tendency to think and therefore speak positively about sex) or that it's never related to other characteristics of how someone relates to others is ludicrous, both logically and from observation of the 100,000 members of AVEN. 

In my experience (which is in the US; other English-speaking countries may not have this same issue) trouble arises when someone says something meaning the first definition and people hear it as meaning the second.  I try to use typical rather than normal for the first meaning to avoid that confusion/misinterpretation, as too many people here hear the statistical use as the judgment.

[Telecaster68]

28 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In my experience (which is in the US; other English-speaking countries may not have this same issue) trouble arises when someone says something meaning the first definition and people hear it as meaning the second.  I try to use typical rather than normal for the first meaning to avoid that confusion/misinterpretation, as too many people here hear the statistical use as the judgment.

I tend to use 'normative' which has a really clear non-judgemental academic definition, which seems to work better on AVEN.

 

I can see why some people get wound up about it - it must be frustrating to feel you're marginalised - but insisting everyone should pretend asexuality is normative is one of the ways the special snowflakery impression gains ground.

[ryn2]

Agreed (normative v. normal), but I find a fair number of people (in real life, not here specifically) don’t know what it means. 

 

I can’t speak for everyone else.  My points were just that 1) I hear plenty of non-ace people speaking negatively about sex, either in general or outside the narrow band they’ve judged acceptable, and 2) sex - while often healthy and normal (in the judgmental sense, not in the statistical sense) - is not univerally so for ace and non-ace populations alike.

[James121]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Do you really believe only psychopaths commit crimes?

No but I’m not going to stand by and watch you or anyone else try and blame sex as opposed to the criminal mind for committing crime. Is it ‘money’s’ fault that people rob banks or the ‘greed’ and ‘criminal mind’ of the robber?

[ryn2]

51 minutes ago, James121 said:

No but I’m not going to stand by and watch you or anyone else try and blame sex as opposed to the criminal mind for committing crime. Is it ‘money’s’ fault that people rob banks or the ‘greed’ and ‘criminal mind’ of the robber?

It wasn’t me blaming sex for anything, it was another poster.

 

I just don’t agree that psychopathy is a prerequisite for criminal behavior.

[Solovei]

No.

 

But I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of passive aggression, judgement, moral superiority, put downs and outright insults of asexual people on what is supposed to be a safe hAVEN or something.

 

Go figure.

[InariYana]

6 hours ago, James121 said:

I’m really sorry but I just don’t agree. Most adult couples in a mature relationship have sex. This is a fact.

 

A lot of single people out there or much older people do not have sex. For years, or even decades. Nuns and monks don't have sex and guess what? They somehow survive and live happy, productive lives. There are people who like to have a break from relationships and sex, sometimes for years. It's all normal.

The world is not made of couples only, who have sex twice a week for 40+ years. 

 

A few years ago there was a study about young people in Japan showing that quite a significant number of them don't have sex or just simply aren't interested.

Quote (after Guardian):

"Although there has long been a pragmatic separation of love and sex in Japan – a country mostly free of religious morals – sex fares no better. A survey earlier this year by the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) found that 45% of women aged 16-24 "were not interested in or despised sexual contact". More than a quarter of men felt the same way."

Sexual people (I can't believe 45% of women in this age range would be asexual, no way) with these attitudes? Yes, they exist!

 

Wait a sec, isn't it like "a drive so strong and essential like need for food and sleep"? Do they like... wither and die slowly because of that 'unhealthy and abnormal' way of living? No... They just don't feel like pursuing sex (for various reasons)... and they don't even identify as asexual. They work, play, eat, travel, meet up with friends - all normal lives.

Sexual people not having sex? *Gasp* Surely that's like... lethal?

 

"Normal" is always a range, not just an average (or some arbitrary) point. Those ranges change over time as well.    

   

[Telecaster68]

11 minutes ago, InariYana said:

The world is not made of couples only, who have sex twice a week for 40+ years. 

Not only, but mostly, made of couples. And James was specifically talking about couples. And they do, mostly, keep having sex into their 60s and 70s (check out the Kinsey website).

 

You're right, normal does change. According to Kinsey, for couples, it goes from 3-4 times a week in the twenties, to 2-3 in the thirties, more like once a week in their forties, and there's some sex (like 1-2 a month) into 60s and 70s for most. 

[anisotrophic]

4 hours ago, InariYana said:

Sexual people not having sex? *Gasp* Surely that's like... lethal? 

Haha. But actually. Experiencing this rejection for over a decade did often lead me to suicidal ideation. I don't think it was very funny.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, InariYana said:

 

A few years ago there was a study about young people in Japan showing that quite a significant number of them don't have sex or just simply aren't interested.

Quote (after Guardian):

"Although there has long been a pragmatic separation of love and sex in Japan – a country mostly free of religious morals – sex fares no better. A survey earlier this year by the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) found that 45% of women aged 16-24 "were not interested in or despised sexual contact". More than a quarter of men felt the same way."

Sexual people (I can't believe 45% of women in this age range would be asexual, no way) with these attitudes? Yes, they exist!

 

 

   

While yes they do exist and not all sexual people need sex or find it super important (I'm technically sexual, cause I do find my partner sexually attractive and I desire being sexual with them, but it's not an important thing to me by any stretch) ... the Japan thing requires some context. The reason, when interviewed, many of the younger crowd said they avoided sexual relationships was because they don't want to risk a baby, which would ruin their lives (in Japan, a woman is expected to stop working and a man is expected to work himself to death to provide, so neither side wants to give up freedom to cultural requirements of family). So, it is a little different than cases where there aren't extreme negatives to a person's life (besides the emotional impact of having to have sex). 

[James121]

6 hours ago, InariYana said:

A lot of single people out there or much older people do not have sex. For years, or even decades. Nuns and monks don't have sex and guess what? They somehow survive and live happy, productive lives. There are people who like to have a break from relationships and sex, sometimes for years. It's all normal.

Looking at your alternative’s.....nuns, monks and old people. 

 

I will agree to that! Nuns, monks and old people don’t really have sex. That’s normal for them.

but my post said ‘most adult couples in a mature relationship have sex’. And It’s true. 

[James121]

9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

It wasn’t me blaming sex for anything, it was another poster.

 

I just don’t agree that psychopathy is a prerequisite for criminal behavior.

Neither do I for every crime. But I also don’t believe that ‘sexual desire’ is to blame for rape for example. That’s just not true but some people here want to demonise sex so badly that they will make such assertions.

[James121]

7 hours ago, Solovei said:

No.

 

But I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of passive aggression, judgement, moral superiority, put downs and outright insults of asexual people on what is supposed to be a safe hAVEN or something.

 

Go figure.

Where?

[James121]

2 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Haha. But actually. Experiencing this rejection for over a decade did often lead me to suicidal ideation. I don't think it was very funny.

Thats very sad and I hope you have come through those darkest days!  

 

[Solovei]

I guess all that sex-deprived masturbation does make one blind. 😔

[James121]

1 hour ago, Solovei said:

I guess all that sex-deprived masturbation does make one blind. 😔

Are you humouring someone else’s struggle?

[Sally]

17 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

You mean there's a dispute over whether asexuality is not normal in the sense of being a mental disorder? My perception is that AVEN is both officially and unofficially pretty united that it's not. By that usage, asexuality is normal. 

 

You're playing "gotcha" lately, Tele.  The tactic of "So you're saying that..." and "You mean that..." doesn't do anything but add to dissension in a discussion.  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, James121 said:

Neither do I for every crime. But I also don’t believe that ‘sexual desire’ is to blame for rape for example. That’s just not true but some people here want to demonise sex so badly that they will make such assertions.

It's a myth that all rape is about power and control and not sex, if you're trying to play that card. In SOME cases it's about motivations other than sexual desire, but much of the time rape is most definitely about sex and sexual desire. It's about getting off on a specific kind of sex that can only be had when you're taking it from a person who doesn't want it (among other things like anger, opportunity, hatred, rejection - which culminate in an act of sexual aggression). And often even when it *is* about power and control there is still a very sexual component to that. That doesn't make sex itself bad though nor does it imply that people who say that rape is about sex (which it almost always is to some extent or another) are trying to demonize healthy sexual relationships between consenting adults.

[SparkyCat13]

16 hours ago, James121 said:

I’m really sorry but I just don’t agree. Most adult couples in a mature relationship have sex. This is a fact.

Yes, but what they were saying is that it's normal and healthy to not have sex too. As in BOTH are normal. You're not having the same conversation here.

 

Also, I feel like we asexuals are trying to explain why some of us might have negative views of sex, and you and Tele especially are ignoring that and accusing us of demonizing sex just because we personally don't care for it (and are understandably irritated at people getting on our cases for it). I feel like most of us (in this thread at least) are just saying that we should be allowed to vent a little at being chafed by a sexually driven society that thinks there's something wrong with us just because we don't care "enough" or "properly." I haven't seen anyone in this thread saying that sex is a Bad Thing. I feel like you guys are lashing out because of some internalized grudges and aren't really interested in the conversation we're trying to have here. You seem to be saying a lot of borderline acephobic things, and I'm wondering what you guys are doing here on AVEN if all you seem to be doing is hating on asexuals instead of trying to lead a productive discussion.

[James121]

5 hours ago, SparkyCat13 said:

Yes, but what they were saying is that it's normal and healthy to not have sex too.

If you are in a relationship, no it’s not!

Unless you both have agreed to live that sexless life.

[Telecaster68]

5 hours ago, SparkyCat13 said:

As in BOTH are normal.

One's normal in that it's expected, typical, etc. The other's normal in that it's not indicative of a mental illness. Two very different definitions, though they're both valid,  That was exactly the ellision that I described up thread, and one that many asexuals seem reluctant to acknowledge.

[Telecaster68]

6 hours ago, Sally said:

You're playing "gotcha" lately, Tele.  The tactic of "So you're saying that..." and "You mean that..." doesn't do anything but add to dissension in a discussion.  

Dissent is surely the point of a discussion isn't it? It's a necessary part of debate. You're the last person I'd have expected to have a problem with dissent.

 

AVEN's debating style is very mealy mouthed, and I'm just trying to cut through it.