Relationship/“Us” Discussions?

[ryn2]

In joint therapy (the therapist calls it therapy even though it probably better fits what tele terms counseling) this past week we were talking about how we never talk about sex and the therapist asked how easily we talked about other things.

 

My husband indicated (correctly) that we talk regularly about both mundane and exciting/upsetting stuff in our lives (work, “how was your day,” friends, etc.), upcoming and past vacations, work on the house, dream vacations/retirement locales, retirement planning and plans, and health matters.  He summed it up as “I feel like it’s all stuff about us individually; nothing about *us*.”

 

The therapist asked me and I said I thought a lot of that *was* talking about us.

 

When we got home I told him I was still stymied and asked if he could give any examples of the types of topics that might qualify, besides sex as we’d already identified that as an issue.

 

He couldn’t.

 

I said it sounded like he felt something was missing.  He neither agreed nor disagreed.

 

So, I’m asking you:  are there non-sex couple/relationship things you talk about that aren’t similar to the list above?

[Telecaster68]

I sort of know what your husband might mean, but I find it hard to come up with examples too.

 

It's maybe not so much subjects but how they're framed. You can discuss retirement as two sets of individual plans for instance or as single shared vision - he wants to spend his retirement fishing, you want to spend it gardening. They're compatible but they're not shared. They're more like 'parallel play'. Shared would be walking hand in hand on the beach, or taking a long trip to India together.

 

Might that be what he meant? It's hard to get a grip on without knowing the context of the therapeutic conversation...

[Purple Wanderer]

house stuff... retirement stuff... holiday...  sound like  "us" things to me!

[ryn2]

42 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I sort of know what your husband might mean, but I find it hard to come up with examples too.

 

It's maybe not so much subjects but how they're framed. You can discuss retirement as two sets of individual plans for instance or as single shared vision - he wants to spend his retirement fishing, you want to spend it gardening. They're compatible but they're not shared. They're more like 'parallel play'. Shared would be walking hand in hand on the beach, or taking a long trip to India together.

 

Might that be what he meant? It's hard to get a grip on without knowing the context of the therapeutic conversation...

Hm, I don’t think so?  All of our vacations have been together and our future plans for vacations, retirement travel, etc., were also together.  On our vacations we do things together - it’s not like one hits the beach and the other goes deep sea fishing or whatever.  As far as I know we talk about them that way.

 

I get what you mean but I don’t think that’s been happening.  I’ll ask.

 

This was just our second time

seeing her, so she is still asking questions about our relationship.  I’m not sure there was much more context.

[MrDane]

8 hours ago, ryn2 said:

In joint therapy (the therapist calls it therapy even though it probably better fits what tele terms counseling) this past week we were talking about how we never talk about sex and the therapist asked how easily we talked about other things.

 

My husband indicated (correctly) that we talk regularly about both mundane and exciting/upsetting stuff in our lives (work, “how was your day,” friends, etc.), upcoming and past vacations, work on the house, dream vacations/retirement locales, retirement planning and plans, and health matters.  He summed it up as “I feel like it’s all stuff about us individually; nothing about *us*.”

 

The therapist asked me and I said I thought a lot of that *was* talking about us.

 

When we got home I told him I was still stymied and asked if he could give any examples of the types of topics that might qualify, besides sex as we’d already identified that as an issue.

 

He couldn’t.

 

I said it sounded like he felt something was missing.  He neither agreed nor disagreed.

 

So, I’m asking you:  are there non-sex couple/relationship things you talk about that aren’t similar to the list above?

I have had a similar experience and it still hits me from time to time. The lack of connection through intimacy/sex makes it feel a bit disconnected from the “real *US*”. Not fair though, I know. I would do anything, visit anywhere in the world, create the best patio-rose-filled garden, move to a foreign country, change our lifestyle, downscale our living expenses... (continue the list,) ...if that would make her see me as sexually desireable. Or just drawn towards me to be physically closer. We love eachother. 

What I really want is to feel totally connected to the one I love. My biggest desire for anything really. We have a gap in our sexuality and in our romantic approach. We both dream of walking the streets of Italy again. I dream of holding her hand, walking close, kissing in the atmosphere of Italy. I sometimes feel like her dream is more about walking, Italy and pizza. Less about me, though she loves me. I understand if she feels like I am a bit “starfishing” about our mutual holiday plans. 

[Telecaster68]

1 hour ago, MrDane said:

I have had a similar experience and it still hits me from time to time. The lack of connection through intimacy/sex makes it feel a bit disconnected from the “real *US*”. Not fair though, I know. I would do anything, visit anywhere in the world, create the best patio-rose-filled garden, move to a foreign country, change our lifestyle, downscale our living expenses... (continue the list,) ...if that would make her see me as sexually desireable. Or just drawn towards me to be physically closer. We love eachother. 

What I really want is to feel totally connected to the one I love. My biggest desire for anything really. We have a gap in our sexuality and in our romantic approach. We both dream of walking the streets of Italy again. I dream of holding her hand, walking close, kissing in the atmosphere of Italy. I sometimes feel like her dream is more about walking, Italy and pizza. Less about me, though she loves me. I understand if she feels like I am a bit “starfishing” about our mutual holiday plans. 

All this.

[Lara Black]

12 hours ago, ryn2 said:

So, I’m asking you:  are there non-sex couple/relationship things you talk about that aren’t similar to the list above?

I’m very vocal about “us”. I often tell my partner how happy I am that we are together, how much I appreciate many little things: how he knows my favorite desserts, how he remembers details I told him months ago etc. I also tell him how adorable he is when he laughs and that he is the very best person in the world to my mind. At first it was a bit awkward for my partner (he is almost aromantic and has problems expressing himself), but now he often tells me similar things – by his own initiative. And I really love it.)

[ryn2]

5 hours ago, MrDane said:

We both dream of walking the streets of Italy again. I dream of holding her hand, walking close, kissing in the atmosphere of Italy. I sometimes feel like her dream is more about walking, Italy and pizza. Less about me, though she loves me. I understand if she feels like I am a bit “starfishing” about our mutual holiday plans. 

Hm.  I’m not aro, I don’t think, and when we travel together there is handholding and walking together and arms around each other looking at the stars (when it’s tolerated - he’s always been the one who preferred not to be huggy and physically affectionate where people might see)... but I don’t talk about it that way (and neither does he).  E.g., I would say “I’d love to see Iceland,”

not “I’d love to walk the streets of Iceland with you, hand in hand.”

 

If I’m understanding you (both?) correctly, though, it may not so much be that as it is the mental context we each fill in around what’s said.  Yes?

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, CBC said:

I see topics like hopes for the future as very much 'us' topics. Interests and passions as well. Conversations with personal depth and shared feelings are amazing. They seem like 'us' things by the very nature of their intensity and back-and-forth.

This is my take, except he has a lot of trouble sharing his feelings so it’s sometimes a bit one-sided.

 

It’s not much fun right now as “us” may have an upcoming expiration date.

 

A weekend night in the ED is only fun if you work there.  Hope everything’s okay!

[Telecaster68]

9 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I don’t talk about it that way (and neither does he).  E.g., I would say “I’d love to see Iceland,”

not “I’d love to walk the streets of Iceland with you, hand in hand.”

 

If I’m understanding you (both?) correctly, though, it may not so much be that as it is the mental context we each fill in around what’s said.  Yes?

Yes, absolutely. I think those two sentences may be nailing down what he means. It's a really subtle difference, and it took me ages to work out that consistently phrasing  statements like that - first person singular rather than first person plural - was part of why I felt similar to your husband. It's not just the grammatical choice, it's what it we perceive it implies: Iceland is the important thing, not the shared experience, and you'd be just as happy to go on your own, it's nothing to do with a shared future.

 

Clearly it's not just 'I' vs 'we', but the underlying attitude. And we (husbands, in this case) can be wrong in our perceptions, or at least subject to confirmation bias once we get that idea in our heads. 

 

ETA: ... and even 'I' can be okay if it's followed up with '... and you've always said you'd like to visit the geysers / see Bjork's birthplace / whatever', because that shows you're thinking of the two of you.

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Lara Black said:

I’m very vocal about “us”. I often tell my partner how happy I am that we are together, how much I appreciate many little things: how he knows my favorite desserts, how he remembers details I told him months ago etc. I also tell him how adorable he is when he laughs and that he is the very best person in the world to my mind. At first it was a bit awkward for my partner (he is almost aromantic and has problems expressing himself), but now he often tells me similar things – by his own initiative. And I really love it.)

This is why I’m wondering if I’m more aro than I thought.  I’m physically affectionate and I feel (romantic?) love for partners that is much deeper - and of a different nature - than what I feel for friends, and I’m positive and supportive of my partner, but stuff like this does not come naturally to me (“you look so nice in that shirt,” sure, but not “you’re so cute when you smile”) and being on the receiving end of it is very uncomfortable.

 

My husband is totally oblivious to what I look like and that’s one of the things I’ve always liked about him.

[ryn2]

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Iceland is the important thing, not the shared experience, and you'd be just as happy to go on your own, it's nothing to do with a shared future.

Interesting that it comes across that way.  It’s definitely the shared experience of Iceland that’s important to me, and I would not have as much fun on my own, but that’s not because of things like sex and holding hands.  It’s having someone to share the experience with, knowing what that person likes and seeking/pointing out examples of it, seeing the person happy, and then being able to revisit the trip in conversation forever.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Clearly it's not just 'I' vs 'we', but the underlying attitude. And we (husbands, in this case) can be wrong in our perceptions, or at least subject to confirmation bias once we get that idea in our heads. 

I’ll have to ask him about that.  I’d guess he won’t recognize it in himself, even if it’s there, but maybe it will percolate into something.

[ryn2]

I’m hearing something like this:  without a strong, mutual sex life you (the sexual partner) don’t feel loved and that means you don’t hear/perceive shared plans in a loving context regardless of how they might be intended.  Is that fair?

[Telecaster68]

I'm sure it is, but all you're saying is you want to go Iceland, and he, and your relationship aren't entering the picture. Some of the onus is on him to push to make the conversation more coupley, but if there's other stuff going on (like him being anxious about your relationship, whether you really want him around, whether he's any failing you because of the ED), he's not necessarily going to feel you do mean both of you going. So he retreats emotionally, you don't particularly notice, he feels that proves his point that you're not very bothered about the relationship, and the cycle continues.

 

Obviously this is largely projection based on my own experience, but it might fit.

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m hearing something like this:  without a strong, mutual sex life you (the sexual partner) don’t feel loved and that means you don’t hear/perceive shared plans in a loving context regardless of how they might be intended.  Is that fair?

Pretty much. I can't speak for all sexuals obviously but I think in general, we feel there's a deficit in emotional communication going on because of the lack of mutual desire, and it needs to be made up somehow to reassure us that everything else is okay. Outside of asexuals and illness, 'I don't want to have sex with you' is almost always a sign the relationship is heading for trouble, and we need shitloads of reassurance that it's not.

[ryn2]

Thanks, tele.  That makes a lot of sense.

[Telecaster68]

9 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’d guess he won’t recognize it in himself, even if it’s there, but maybe it will percolate into something.

Yeah, it might well take a bit of processing. It depends on how self aware and introspective he is. It could be a lightbulb moment.

[Telecaster68]

3 minutes ago, CBC said:

he has a lot of trouble sharing his feelings so it’s sometimes a bit one-sided.

Another epic bit of projection...

 

I'd bet he feels, because of all this, your emotional investment in the relationship isn't what he'd like, so he doesn't feel safe to say this stuff, particularly if his background hasn't encouraged openness, for whatever reason. He might well be feeling he's failed you - misread you, you're just being nice to avoid hurting his feeling about your lack of interest in sex, he finds it hard to be emotionally forthcoming when that's what you want. Or, he just doesn't have much insight into it, and can't articulate it. At this point, calling it quits looks like the least painful option.

 

I'm not for a second blaming you for all this, it's mostly His Stuff. But it could well be what you're dealing with.

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, CBC said:

And thanks, I'm alive I guess. We'll see if tomorrow's CT scan confirms that haha.

Thinking good thoughts for your continued survival then!

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Another epic bit of projection...

 

I'd bet he feels, because of all this, your emotional investment in the relationship isn't what he'd like, so he doesn't feel safe to say this stuff, particularly if his background hasn't encouraged openness, for whatever reason. He might well be feeling he's failed you - misread you, you're just being nice to avoid hurting his feeling about your lack of interest in sex, he finds it hard to be emotionally forthcoming when that's what you want. Or, he just doesn't have much insight into it, and can't articulate it. At this point, calling it quits looks like the least painful option.

 

I'm not for a second blaming you for all this, it's mostly His Stuff. But it could well be what you're dealing with.

Yeah, hard to know.  He has been like this all along, so I can’t really tell what it’s caused by at any given point.

[Telecaster68]

32 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

“you look so nice in that shirt,” sure, but not “you’re so cute when you smile”

I just figured out what was bothering me about those statements. It's this: they're both observations, not you expressing feelings. It's subtle, because they're observations that imply feelings, but still a bit indirect, and if he's convinced himself you don't really care, they could each sound like you're struggling for something positive to say because you can't bring yourself to say the more directly emotional things Lara cited:

 

Quote

 

 how adorable he is when he laughs and that he is the very best person in the world to my mind.

 

'Adorable' is stronger and not shirt-related, 'cute' can be a kind of deflection for 'I don't fancy you'. I know this must all seem paranoid and nitpicking, but when there's no counterbalancing with sex and you tend to phrase plans with 'I', it all kind of adds up if you're already feeling insecure.

 

In the end, only he can work on the insecurity, but you clearly want to be as supportive as you can, and that's all you can do.

[MrDane]

59 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I’m hearing something like this:  without a strong, mutual sex life you (the sexual partner) don’t feel loved and that means you don’t hear/perceive shared plans in a loving context regardless of how they might be intended.  Is that fair?

I understand this, but I am just trying to say, that the sex could have made the bond needed and if the sex is on low or non-existing, then other means of togetherness is much needed. Like remembering that the trip is best, when we share it or in other ways put emphasiz on *us* handholding and hugs and wording it out is important.

[Lara Black]

28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I just figured out what was bothering me about those statements. It's this: they're both observations, not you expressing feelings. It's subtle, because they're observations that imply feelings, but still a bit indirect, and if he's convinced himself you don't really care, they could each sound like you're struggling for something positive to say because you can't bring yourself to say the more directly emotional things Lara cited:

 

'Adorable' is stronger and not shirt-related, 'cute' can be a kind of deflection for 'I don't fancy you'. I know this must all seem paranoid and nitpicking, but when there's no counterbalancing with sex and you tend to phrase plans with 'I', it all kind of adds up if you're already feeling insecure.

 

In the end, only he can work on the insecurity, but you clearly want to be as supportive as you can, and that's all you can do.

Interesting idea. Technically, it could be used as kind of deflection if twisted a certain way. But “I love you” is not something you use every day – at least, in my opinion, it cheapens the expression. So, what about you - how would you talk about “us” from day to day?

[Telecaster68]

26 minutes ago, CBC said:

This confused the crap out of me... somehow ryn2's quote got attributed to me. I had a temporary "Whoa wait, Tele's accusing me of projecting?" moment.

Oops. Tele is actually well aware that he's projecting like fuck.

[ryn2]

41 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I just figured out what was bothering me about those statements. It's this: they're both observations, not you expressing feelings. It's subtle, because they're observations that imply feelings, but still a bit indirect, and if he's convinced himself you don't really care, they could each sound like you're struggling for something positive to say because you can't bring yourself to say the more directly emotional things Lara cited:

 

'Adorable' is stronger and not shirt-related, 'cute' can be a kind of deflection for 'I don't fancy you'. I know this must all seem paranoid and nitpicking, but when there's no counterbalancing with sex and you tend to phrase plans with 'I', it all kind of adds up if you're already feeling insecure.

 

In the end, only he can work on the insecurity, but you clearly want to be as supportive as you can, and that's all you can do.

No, it doesn’t sound nit-picky.  I just have to sort through what’s a difference in language (I don’t think I’ve called a human adult adorable in my life... to me that’s for pets and children) and what’s more than that.

 

I feel like some things would sound fake and scripted coming from me, because they are not I talk about anything.  I’m not a “squee-er.”

 

Ideally I should talk to him about what kinds of things make him feel appreciated.  I don’t know how far that will get, as questions like that tend to get answered with “I have no idea,” but I suppose it can’t hurt to try.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, Lara Black said:

Interesting idea. Technically, it could be used as kind of deflection if twisted a certain way. But “I love you” is not something you use every day – at least, in my opinion, it cheapens the expression. So, what about you - how would you talk about “us” from day to day?

Some people do say 'I love you' frequently. I think it does risk cheapening it, but then sheer repetition also reinforces the feeling, I guess.

 

But 'us' in day to day terms?

• Not 'I want to see this film' but 'we could go and see this film'. It's something we can do together, which is more important than the film.
• Not 'You have a point, but how about [logical objection]' but 'I love it when you start ranting'. I love your passion and that's more important than either of our logical opinions about this specific thing.

It's making the conversation about the relationship, not the thing it's ostensibly about.

 

Clearly this shouldn't be to the extent of completely erasing your own personality, and both people should do it equally, but if it's always just 'I', then the other person ends up feeling like they're not on your radar at all, and not important to you.

[ryn2]

I honestly don’t know if I phrase travel plans with I or we.  I think I normally have said “we should go back to NYC next month,” when it comes up that way... but the long-term discussions are normally one of us saying “where  else would you like to go?” and that tends to elicit an I-worded answer.

[Telecaster68]

3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

No, it doesn’t sound nit-picky.  I just have to sort through what’s a difference in language (I don’t think I’ve called a human adult adorable in my life... to me that’s for pets and children) and what’s more than that.

 

I feel like some things would sound fake and scripted coming from me, because they are not I talk about anything.  I’m not a “squee-er.”

 

Ideally I should talk to him about what kinds of things make him feel appreciated.  I don’t know how far that will get, as questions like that tend to get answered with “I have no idea,” but I suppose it can’t hurt to try.

Yeah, you have to figure out the version that works for you without sounding and feeling fake, and it doesn't have to be quite as direct, just clear that it's about feelings not just a factual observation.

 

If he has no idea, you could try figuring it out for yourself with observation. What do you do that makes him smile?  What does he seem more cheerful about planning/doing/having done? What makes him seem more affectionate towards you?

[ryn2]

16 minutes ago, Lara Black said:

But “I love you” is not something you use every day – at least, in my opinion, it cheapens the expression.

Huh.  We actually do (well, did, and I still do but right now he will only respond and not initiate) say “I love you” at least once a day...  sometimes more.