#GenderProblems

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

@Celyn wow that's ironic but I wish you luck! No one's ever asked me that but I guess I dress extremely sloppily and so they don't really take notice.

[Celyn: The Lutening]

1 minute ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

@Celyn wow that's ironic but I wish you luck! No one's ever asked me that but I guess I dress extremely sloppily and so they don't really take notice.

Thanks  My workplace has a quite formal dress code, however I'm small chested enough that I don't think it would be that noticeable if I wore it under a button-up, which is what I would be wearing on those days anyway.

I just like to worry about things.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

5 hours ago, Celyn said:

But I don't know whether/how I'll deal with any "BUT WHERE DID THE BOOBS GO?" questioning.

Tell them they went to Timboobtu.

[NerdIsStrongWithThisOne]

1 hour ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Tell them they went to Timboobtu.

This is my new favourite response to that!! 

[anisotrophic]

10 hours ago, Celyn said:

I don't know whether/how I'll deal with any "BUT WHERE DID THE BOOBS GO?" questioning.

FWIW nobody ever said anything like this to me, or noticed I used a binder. It seems pretty clear that they just thought (probably unconsciously) I lost weight. (I also did lose weight, because the fat distribution is feminizing.)

 

Now that I'm pregnant it's even more a contrast and people (who def see me as female, I need hormones to change this) are surprised I'm pregnant (!!). I don't show very dramatically, but also, bodies vary a lot.

 

I think people mostly operate on default assumptions, and so don't notice...

[Celyn: The Lutening]

1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

 

I think people mostly operate on default assumptions, and so don't notice..

This is definitely true. It's one of the reasons a lot of trans people "pass" better than they think they do - because most people subconsciously expect everyone to be cis.

[Reidge]

When your birth name is the name of an obscure god but based on that fact that it ends with an a everyone assumes you're a girl. Is definitely fun. Like, passing as male is better than just going with what I was assigned at birth, for me. I don't feel comfortable as a girl. But I also don't feel like a boy. But also not uncomfortable as a boy. 

Also when you've asked your teachers to use they/them pronouns but they just keep using she/her. Is also fun.

And the gender neutral changing rooms for gym? They're in the gendered changing rooms. So you'd have to assign yourself a gender. And you're not even told how to get to them anyways. 

The gender neutral bathroom? Yeah, you need to get an adult to unlock it for you before you can use it.

[ElasticPlanet]

On 10/7/2018 at 10:01 AM, Celyn said:

a lot of trans people "pass" better than they think they do - because most people subconsciously expect everyone to be cis.

I'm sure that's true generally. But for me it means the opposite problem: whatever I do, I can't 'pass' as nonbinary.

[nerdperson777]

On 10/6/2018 at 1:03 PM, Celyn said:

Can relate. Every time I have a really dysphoric day I say to myself, "OK this is the time that I have to do something about this," then the next day I feel better and I never do.

 

On a different note, I'm ordering a binder as I type and I'm probably going to want to wear it at work (because let's face it, I spend a lot of time there and logic dictates I'll be feeling male for some of it). But I don't know whether/how I'll deal with any "BUT WHERE DID THE BOOBS GO?" questioning.

I've already been asked "Are those guy's clothes?" and just ignored it, but I don't think I'll be able to do that every time. (Ironically, no, they were from the women's section.)

My friend did that. They wore a binder in a dress and "where did they all go" made me laugh. Their co-worker kept looking at their chest very confused since there were usually double D's in there. 

[Celyn: The Lutening]

35 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

My friend did that. They wore a binder in a dress and "where did they all go" made me laugh. Their co-worker kept looking at their chest very confused since there were usually double D's in there. 

That's another thing I want to avoid - wearing clothes tailored for boob'ed people and having that weird empty saggy bit in the front. Haven't used a proper binder for a while, just sports bras, so I'm not used to having to think that.

(Previous binder lost all bindy-ness and I wasn't in a life situation in which I could get another till now)

[nerdperson777]

35 minutes ago, Celyn said:

That's another thing I want to avoid - wearing clothes tailored for boob'ed people and having that weird empty saggy bit in the front. Haven't used a proper binder for a while, just sports bras, so I'm not used to having to think that.

(Previous binder lost all bindy-ness and I wasn't in a life situation in which I could get another till now)

Even when I handed a trans girl friend one of my old bras she found my A cups to be big. This is a skinny girl who can't grow any boobs. I don't even have enough "outward" mass to even make it a full cup. 

[InfiniteNull]

On 10/8/2018 at 12:39 PM, ElasticPlanet said:

I'm sure that's true generally. But for me it means the opposite problem: whatever I do, I can't 'pass' as nonbinary.

Well... one thing that I do as a enby+trans person... is I redefine what "passing" means for me... and I tell people what those requirements are all the time because they often tell me that I do pass under the guidelines that I have. 

 

For me... I will always look like I am transgender... but when someone doesn't know for sure which direction I am coming from (afab or amab) then I have passed to that person... 

 

Little social indicators of this: When someone who uses gendered language for everyone else all the sudden stops using gendered language when talking to me. Or when talking to other trans people about HRT they ask if I am on testosterone... or people just saying that I pass when I explain my definition of passing... 

 

If you don't want to have goals for that sort of thing then this idea wouldn't help much, but if you wanted to have a direction to go... a way to say in your head "I am successful in my transition" it might help

[Taylor Lilith]

I usually redefine passing as it's way too easy for me to pass as cis male. Passing, as a concept, is complete bs. If I am a woman, and you believe that I am, why do I need to pass as one?

 

I'm going to medically transition for me. To be happy with what I see in the mirror not to make it easier for anyone else. 

[ElasticPlanet]

9 hours ago, InfiniteNull said:

when someone doesn't know for sure which direction I am coming from (afab or amab) then I have passed to that person...

I'm really glad you've found a view on this that works for you. Recently I've been thinking about the fact that I had no idea of the assigned gender of some nonbinary people I've met. If anything that's helped me to feel more sure of something I've suspected for a while: I don't actually mind people correctly guessing I was assigned male. It's only when they think I want to be male that it becomes a social dysphoria problem.

[ElasticPlanet]

7 hours ago, Taylor Lilith said:

Passing, as a concept, is complete bs

Yep. 😎

 

EDIT: Despite that, I would like some way to be seen as nonbinary without actually having to resort to words every time...

[Taylor Lilith]

4 hours ago, ElasticPlanet said:

EDIT: Despite that, I would like some way to be seen as nonbinary without actually having to resort to words every time...

agreeed

[Anthracite_Impreza]

"Passing" is bollocks; no one's ever gonna see me as anything but "female" unless I've got my hoodie up (when I invariably get gendered as male cos it's a car hoodie and only males like cars!), but I'm still as enby as anyone else. In order to "pass" as androgynous I'd have to change my entire look and d'you know what? I don't want to. I like my hair as it is, I like having long (of varying degrees, cos they're always snapping or ragging on shit) nails, I like having hairy arms and legs and I like wearing penguin socks with car shirts and trackies. Ironically enough, online, I always get misgendered as male unless a gender is given for me. I think this combination sums me up pretty well  

[Taylor Lilith]

1 hour ago, Anthraxite_Vampreza said:

"Passing" is bollocks; no one's ever gonna see me as anything but "female" unless I've got my hoodie up (when I invariably get gendered as male cos it's a car hoodie and only males like cars!), but I'm still as enby as anyone else. In order to "pass" as androgynous I'd have to change my entire look and d'you know what? I don't want to. I like my hair as it is, I like having long (of varying degrees, cos they're always snapping or ragging on shit) nails, I like having hairy arms and legs and I like wearing penguin socks with car shirts and trackies. Ironically enough, online, I always get misgendered as male unless a gender is given for me. I think this combination sums me up pretty well  

IDK. You come off as a masc of center agender person to me then again I interact with a lot of agender people 🤷‍♀️

[Anthracite_Impreza]

8 minutes ago, Taylor Lilith said:

IDK. You come off as a masc of center agender person to me then again I interact with a lot of agender people 🤷‍♀️

I suspect that's cos you know non-binary exists, I meant more cis-binary dominated places 

[Taylor Lilith]

Just now, Anthraxite_Vampreza said:

I suspect that's cos you know non-binary exists, I meant more cis-binary dominated places 

And also because I do agender and have written a bunch of notes on different genders while in those genders but....yeah pretty much. 

[Taylor Lilith]

So I have been thinking about this a lot.  A lot a lot.  I've been thinking of the ways that a lot of times women start describing things...intolerant things that I have no business agreeing with and I just sit hear nodding my head going "this makes so much sense" but you know it is false because the facts just don't support the argument be it a TERf spewing transphobia or a truscum trans woman vomiting erasure and hate and it's something I've noticed a lot lately, these people's arguments make sense and my brain follows them very naturally because I'm a woman and they are too.

 

It's something that has turned up for me over and over again that a lot of the problems I have, have nothing to do with me being trans or being raisedd male but the fact that I'm a woman meant not only did I inherit all the nice good things about women but all the bad ones as well.  It troubles me to know that sometimes the problems I see in myself have nothing to do with me being AMAB or trans but because I'm a woman and some of the problematic behaviors that I have, have everything to do with me being a woman.

[anisotrophic]

2 hours ago, Taylor Lilith said:

problematic behaviors that I have, have everything to do with me being a woman

This is a really interesting thought! Because it was this phenomenon that really tipped my gender identity!

 

I felt allergic to female, but it wasn't merely "didn't like the gender I was" (and didn't feel it, hated it, didn't perform it).... it was that there were things about myself -- things that are not positive! -- that didn't feel recognized because of my gender assignment. Owning male things I *didn't* like about myself ... that felt erased or denied by "female" status.

[Celyn: The Lutening]

Google-imaging haircuts, and apparently there are three types of "androgynous" haircuts - ones that just make you look like a lesbian, ones that are androgynous and nice, and TERRIBLE ONES. ("Are you a boy or a girl?" "I'm a person with a terrible haircut.")

 

Also, I found a pintrest board - "genderfluid haircuts for girls," and just facepalmed. That's....not how that works.

[Guest]

@Celyn Ah, the conundrum I keep facing... And I have a round face to contend with! 😑

[ElasticPlanet]

10 hours ago, Celyn said:

("Are you a boy or a girl?" "I'm a person with a terrible haircut."

😄 ... and I'm someone who never quite achieved a non-terrible haircut until after I'd realised I was nonbinary.

 

10 hours ago, Celyn said:

"genderfluid haircuts for girls,"

Ugh... so wrong. And even without the 'girls' labelling fail, if they'd actually called it something like "genderfluid haircuts for afab people" there's still another problem going on here. My web searches for nonbinary hair styles have overwhelmingly come up with results for afab people wanting to present more masc. I'm in the opposite situation (amab/femme) and am getting almost no relevant search results at all for this sort of thing.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

7 minutes ago, ElasticPlanet said:

My web searches for nonbinary hair styles have overwhelmingly come up with results for afab people wanting to present more masc. I'm in the opposite situation (amab/femme) and am getting almost no relevant search results at all for this sort of thing.

There's a big problem with androgynous = skinny masculine as it is, so yes, hit the nail on the head there. Androgynous just means mix and match between "male" and "female"; showing only one style is both inaccurate and alienating.

[Taylor Lilith]

There is going to be transphobia in this statement that I apologize for.  I don't agree with it but it's what most people feel... I feel.

 

A lot of the reason why trans men and mascs aren't as much on the media is because wanting to be male and not wanting to be a woman is so much more understandable than a trans woman, trans femme or nonbinary AMAB hating being misgendered as male.  It bothers a loooOOooOoOT of people that trans women hate being called men, that they would give up male privilege in a heartbeat to be born a cis woman.  A lot of cis dudes sound super ridiculous level gay for how much they care about my penis.  It's absurd how much love my dick gets from cis het dudes like .... maybe say "no homo" afterwards because you sound turbo gay.

 

It is incredibly hard for people to comprehend how trans women hate being gendered male, hate that we benefit from something we don't want, hate how we would give up everything to not be gendered male.  Being a trans woman is ridiculously strange because it goes so against the common societal notion that if you can't be male then try your hardest to be like one.   Where male is default gender or women are compared to men rather than humanity as a whole or famous women are defined by how they treated their non famous husbands.

 

And I think that a lot of news attention is focused on trans women rather than trans mascs and afabs because being given the world and saying "no, I don't want that, I want to be treated like a woman." is ridiculous to the point of outrage to many people.  How could you not want to be male and choose and fight to be female and it outrages people.  To fight to be less  than is so ridiculously outrageous to so many people.

 

Sorry for the transphobia and trans misogyny, y'all.  I feel slimey. I definitely don't agree with it but it's how the world be.  Also sorry for stealing the media and news from you.  It's beyond my control.  I literally just wanna pee in public and have boobs and get mah d**K lobbed off.  I really never asked for everyone to talk about trans women almost exclusively.

[Celyn: The Lutening]

2 hours ago, Taylor Lilith said:

  How could you not want to be male

Coming from the other direction, it was sooooo hard to tell whether I was actually trans or just suffering from severe, internalised misogyny. 

And it's why I didn't realise I wasn't cis for so long, being surrounded by a society that basically says "Male good, female bad," any kid would assume that all AFAB people wanted to be male.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

@Taylor Lilith You are 100% correct of course, and sadly due to my transphobic father I know this from direct experience. He has much stronger reactions to trans-women than men, even though he claims women have it easier than men (yep, he's one of THOSE). I used to be pretty misogynistic myself, being brought up in such an environment and combined with unresolved gender issues.

[nerdperson777]

12 hours ago, Celyn said:

Coming from the other direction, it was sooooo hard to tell whether I was actually trans or just suffering from severe, internalised misogyny. 

And it's why I didn't realise I wasn't cis for so long, being surrounded by a society that basically says "Male good, female bad," any kid would assume that all AFAB people wanted to be male.

Yes, absolutely. I didn't understand why not be male. They were respected, higher pay, given permission to do just about everything. History says it all. History is "his story", the story of man. No one barred you from doing groundbreaking things based on being a man. I was sick of being told "you can't do that" because of gender. Girls shouldn't carry heavy things, just let the guys do it. "Girls aren't allowed to do [whatever]." Growing up as a girl made people ridicule me. If I grew up a boy, I would've at least been bullied less, or not at all. I saw no detriment to being a boy. Of course now I see things like male privilege and toxic masculinity but back then I didn't see why I should've been a girl. Girls were restricted to traditional gender norms. I like doing boy things.  How can it be nice not being able to do things because of perceived gender?