Jump to content

Can romantic feelings develop over time?


Tarfeather

Recommended Posts

You know, a lifetime of not having any woman fall for me, combined with 4 years of a relationship with a woman who had no romantic feelings for me, have left me completely clueless about how female attraction, sexuality, and so on work.

 

I made a post a while ago about having met a woman, let's call her Rapunzel for the sake of disambiguity in this thread, who not only showed moderate interest in me, but also could get past the fact that I had a partner in the form of C. Since then, I and C. have jointly decided to "break up", as we both feel that "best friends" and "soul mates" describes our relationship more accurately than "romantic partners". Not much has changed about us, though, except that we don't engage in sexual things anymore (which she mostly did for my sake anyway, so it's no big deal).

 

 

Now, with regards to Rapunzel, I'm seriously at a loss about what's going on between us. One thing of note is that, according to her she's never been in love, and she's never had sex, but she's developed an interest in dating lately (she's in her mid twenties). We've met two times, once just me and her, and another time C. joined us. In both instances, I didn't really feel that she was.. well.. attracted to me? For the most part, I just felt no tension between us whatsoever. We did get along very well, though, and she did express at the end of our first meeting that it'd been exciting for her, and that she hadn't expected it to be this nice.

 

I'm basically confused, because despite rarely feeling any tension between us "in the moment", despite not getting the impression that she has romantic feelings for me, the way she talks about me makes it seem like she might be interested in me. For instance, just yesterday I took some courage to talk to her about my social anxiety and my anxiety around her in particular (being afraid of staring too much at her and things like that). During that, I also mentioned to her that I enjoy looking at her a lot, and she surprisingly reacted positively to that.

 

In fact, she told me that she thought it was "really nice of me, too nice actually" that I was concerned about it so much. She elaborated that despite my shy demeanor, she likes me the way I am. She also suggested that we could meet and work around those anxiety issues, and she sent me a photo of herself adding that "Pictures will have to be enough until we see each other again".

 

Now, I have absolutely no experience with women and can not judge these things, but that actually seemed like low key flirting to me? If so, that'd be the first time that's happened to me. But it's just odd because I don't really feel like she's in love with me or anything. It's more like.. she's a very empathic person, and very pragmatic about social situations. Whenever we plan things together, she thinks of my needs as much as of her own (and we hardly know each other). This feels like that, like she's being empathic and taking my desire to admire her beauty into account. Only, that would imply that she is indeed interested me on some level.

 

So.. how does that work? Being interested in someone, but not being in love with them? I'm possibly hyperromantic, which might be why I've never experienced that myself. Although, that does seem to be the consensus of society, this "love at first sight" thing, this idea that attraction is an all or nothing deal. Maybe some people acknowledge that love can be something that develops, but most people probably assume that some seed of attraction has to be there from the start. Which, if it's there in this situation, at least I don't perceive it right now.

 

This makes me a bit uneasy, particularly because I've made some very bad experiences with trying to be friends with a woman who I fancied. I know some people, especially in feminist circles, scoff at the idea of a "friend zone", but frankly, caring very deeply about someone, and receiving very little of that attention back because you don't happen to be the person they want to bump uglies with, isn't a pleasant experience. I'm fine with being friends and nothing more, I'm not fine with being secondary to a romantic partner.

 

Basically, I'm wondering whether the fact that I don't experience any feelings from her side means that I should give up right now, or whether it's possible that she ends up developing feelings later down the line, despite not being in love with me right now?

Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion? Give up right now, rather than entertain any notion of any feelings developing. If any do develop, it's a pleasant surprise, but just focus on being friends with her instead of expecting or hoping for anything else. 

 

Every girl is going to be different, some people fall in love at first sight, some don't, some take years for feelings to develop. 

 

It's impossible to know, so the best thing to do is not expect anything and not entertain notions. I'm definitely one of those feminists who scoffs at the friend zone, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

Tar, she fancies you. She's just taking it a bit slowly. 

 

Next time you see her, at some point, there will be one of those long pauses with a lot of eye contact. At this point, Tar, kiss her. This will be what she wants. 

 

You may not be getting Hollywood whirlwinds of emotion, but you obviously have feelings for her. 

 

You're over thinking again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, gaogao said:

Give up right now

 

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

At this point, Tar, kiss her. This will be what she wants.

Golly gosh, AVEN is such an echo chamber! :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

Tar, do you want to kiss her? 

 

No 'it depends' over thinking. Instant gut reaction, yes or no. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Tar, she fancies you. She's just taking it a bit slowly. 

 

Next time you see her, at some point, there will be one of those long pauses with a lot of eye contact. At this point, Tar, kiss her. This will be what she wants. 

or he couId end up with an assauIt charge. Tar doesn't seem to be the best at reading peopIe sometimes, so suggesting he randomIy kiss her may not be the best idea. There are different kinds of extended eye contact (Iike ''I'm Iooking at you waiting for you to taIk... why aren't you taIking?... oh shit, this is getting awkward'') ..if you misread that and jump in and kiss the person, that couId be a terribIe move :o she seems to Iike that Tar is shy, as someone who Iikes shy guys I can say part of that for me is knowing they'II wait for ME to make the first move - that's part of what attracts me to them. If she's anything Iike me, she'd prefer Tar waits untiI SHE is ready, at which point she wiII make the first move.

 

I agree with gaogao @Tarfeather, for now I think you shouId focus on friendship with her and stop worrying about the rest :) is this the same girI your parents set you up with?

Link to post
Share on other sites

to be fair... the other option is that Tar could just ask her outright whether she likes him rather than speculating all over the place?

 

If she says no, then give up (no second-guessing). If she says yes, then kiss her.

 

then both Tele and I can be right!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

Yes, Tar is bad at reading people, because he errs hugely towards 'nope, how could she be interested in me, therefore that clear sign of interest must have some other explanation'. I recognise this because I used to do it.

 

So since even Tar is  entertaining the things he describes might be interest, I think they'd be the equivalent of neon flashing lights and sky writing to everyone else. 

 

He's had his mind (though sadly not his body) utterly fucked by C for several years, and that's done the same number on his confidence that asexual lack of interest does for everyone. 

 

And say he has made a mistake... Going for a kiss and getting rebuffed simply isn't going to be interpreted as sexual assault, either by her, or by the authorities. That's just a silly idea. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ehh.. but I think Tar could also be reading something else, since he has a tendency to over-read things...

 

There was one time where he had a friendship with a girl who he thought might secretly have feelings for him - but it turned out she didn't and told him so several times, but he kept pushing until she basically cut off their friendship (I think this is what happened?) Anyway the outcome of it all was that it wasn't pleasant and it all went down badly.

 

If he went in for a kiss with her it would have been absolutely disastrous, and I wouldn't wish that to happen. That's why I think either asking or giving up is the best thing to do..

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

It wouldn't have been disastrous, just rather awkward. People make passes and get rebuffed all the time. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Galactic Turtle

While I don't know much about these matters, I'd be more concerned if she was in love with you after only two dates.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Telecaster68 I think that really depends on the girl.

 

There are some girls who would really freak out and paint you as a terrible person who tried to force yourself on her if you tried to go in for a kiss with no warning - and you really never know what kind of girl she'll turn out to be. 

 

I mean, I can't deny that I'm that kind of girl. I'd find it really traumatic. I accept that I'm ace/probably atypical, but I do know a lot of non-ace girls who would definitely also freak out because they have varying forms of anxiety/shyness.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68
56 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

In both instances, I didn't really feel that she was.. well.. attracted to me?

How would you expect her to act if she was attracted to you? What was the difference?

 

57 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

For the most part, I just felt no tension between us whatsoever

Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you just get along really, really well, and it's all really comfortable and simple. After several years of C's convolutions, this is going to be disconcerting.

 

58 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

I also mentioned to her that I enjoy looking at her a lot, and she surprisingly reacted positively to that.

If she wasn't attracted to you, she'd have brushed that off, to steer you away from any of 'those' kinds of thoughts. If she's encouraging you to enjoy looking at her, it means she likes you looking at her, which means she *likes* you in that way.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

she thought it was "really nice of me, too nice actually" that I was concerned about it so much

I think she's politely telling you to stop feeling guilty about being attracted to her, and over thinking. I suspect she wants you to stop second guessing yourself and take the lead.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

She also suggested that we could meet

Fancies you.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

he sent me a photo of herself adding that "Pictures will have to be enough until we see each other again".

Women do not send photos of themselves to men they don't fancy, or at the very, very least, are considering as potentials.

 

And that 'enough'... she'd like it to me more than just sending pictures. At the very least, she wants the relationship to progress, and in context - she fancies you.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

that actually seemed like low key flirting to me?

Actually it's quite high key flirting.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

Whenever we plan things together, she thinks of my needs as much as of her own

Yeah, this is what people do when they'd like to establish some kind of partnershippy relationship. C is an outlier in this regard.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

Although, that does seem to be the consensus of society, this "love at first sight" thing, this idea that attraction is an all or nothing deal

I don't think it happens, and it's certainly not the norm - the 'I really couldn't stand him at first' trope is far more common in real life. Even more likely is steadily increasing interest, starting tentative and getting more and more certain. I think what people are talking about with 'love at first sight' is a strongly favourable first impression that gets borne out as time goes on, with some confirmation bias and rewriting of history thrown in.

 

The whole 'firework city' thing ( as described in Four Weddings and A Funeral) is really, really very much exception. What you're describing is far more like the norm.

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

I know some people, especially in feminist circles, scoff at the idea of a "friend zone",

It's not like you to give feminists any credence, Tar....

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68
40 minutes ago, gaogao said:

I accept that I'm ace/probably atypical, but I do know a lot of non-ace girls who would definitely also freak out because they have varying forms of anxiety/shyness.

To clarify - I'm not talking about some Rhett Butler/Scarlett O'Hara forcible clinch here, with the man clamping her to his chest against her will till she melts. I'm talking about the way most first kisses happen: two people talking, laughing, lots of eye contact, moving closer, 'accidental' brushing of arms/hands, and then there's a pregnant pause in the conversation, because they're both wondering whether the other one fancies them too. That's the point at which moving in for a single, gentle, brief, kiss on the lips is going to happen. If either isn't interested, they can pull away, and yes, it's awkward, but it's a perfectly standard human interaction, albeit misjudged, and probably followed up with apologies. I can't imagine any authorities anywhere would consider that a sexual assault they'd investigate, let alone prosecute, let alone anyone would get convicted for.

 

ETA: if she's that shy/anxious, she wouldn't get to the eye contact, moving closer, accidental touching stage in the first place. This is why flirting exists, so each person can escalate or not, reciprocally, so by the time it gets to anything that can't be ignored (like kissing), both sides on fairly firm ground. Also, it's fun. Simply asking 'can I kiss you?' instantly puts both sides on risky ground, because any rejection will be explicit rather than implied.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, gaogao said:

ey im glad you're entertained @Tarfeather

Not just entertained, also impressed at how every different perspective adds to the discussion and helps me to understand the situation better. Even though you disagree and contradict each other, I believe there's truth in what each of you is saying.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, gaogao said:

@Telecaster68 I think that really depends on the girl.

 

There are some girls who would really freak out and paint you as a terrible person who tried to force yourself on her if you tried to go in for a kiss with no warning - and you really never know what kind of girl she'll turn out to be. 

 

I mean, I can't deny that I'm that kind of girl. I'd find it really traumatic. I accept that I'm ace/probably atypical, but I do know a lot of non-ace girls who would definitely also freak out because they have varying forms of anxiety/shyness.

Yes this ^^

 

Regarding some other things that have been said in this thread, like I said I'm someone attracted to shy guys. For me part of the attraction is that they *won't* do that, and if some less shy guy (ie Tele) had convinced my partner to just message me and say he likes me and wants to kiss me before we got together, I would have been turned off and wouldn't have wanted to continue the friendship that eventually led to a relationship - the guy moving in and making the first move just isn't something attractive to someone who has legit attraction to shy guys ..if we wanted someone who'd make the first move quite early on then we wouldn't be into shy guys! If it had been in-person and he'd tried to go in for an *actual* kiss, that would have been even worse for him and we wouldn't have spoken again after that :o

 

However there's a chance this girl just likes Tar for who he is and being shy is just a part of that, as opposed to being attracted to his shyness specifically. Just from what Tar was saying it made it sound like it his shyness specifically that she likes. (that's if shes attracted to him at all of course and not just being polite).

 

Tar also specifically said though 'we hardly know each other'.. I know for a lot of people they don't start getting those feelings until you know each other better. It may not be the best idea to just lean in and kiss a girl until you're sure she's definitely into you. Just focus on friendship for now and don't try to push anything romantic.. if she wants it she'll let you know :o That's my final bit of advice for this thread, I urgently need to spend less time on AVEN!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you just get along really, really well, and it's all really comfortable and simple.

That's actually interesting, because you basically described exactly how I felt the first time we met. Rapunzel also said something along these lines. So yeah, I suppose so?

 

I mean, to name one example. The first time I visited her, I stayed over night to watch a movie with her. She has a huge house plant hanging on to the door between her bedroom and the living room where I slept, so she couldn't close the door. When we went to bed, she ended up changing her clothes in plain line of sight of me (I looked away). That's like "really comfortable and simple" and uncomplicated and everything.. but to me that strikes me as more of a platonic thing, because if you're into someone, I'd think you'd be flustered by the thought of changing clothes where that person can see. Anyway, she's had a very unusual childhood with very little personal space (7 siblings on very little space), so she's probably just a little unusual in this regard. Maybe that also affects the way she approaches romance? I wouldn't know.

 

Quote

After several years of C's convolutions, this is going to be disconcerting.

Eh, with C. it was actually very similar. We were very comfortable around each other from the start, but not much romantic tension between us. Turns out, that was because she never had romantic feelings for me to begin with. So that makes me wonder whether this is another of those situations where romantic feelings just aren't something that's going to happen, ever.

 

Quote
Quote

she thought it was "really nice of me, too nice actually" that I was concerned about it so much

I think she's politely telling you to stop feeling guilty about being attracted to her, and over thinking. I suspect she wants you to stop second guessing yourself and take the lead.

Actually, in almost the same sentence, she said that "many guys touch women without asking". So that'd be a very odd way to express she wants me to take the lead. "Many guys touch women without asking, so I want you to touch me without asking". :lol:

 

Also, she's told me about some wtf-worthy situations. Apparently, one time she was walking through a park in the evening, and a group of guys asked her for directions to the next disco. After she was nice enough to give them directions, one of them proceeded to literally pick her up. "You're coming along". She ended up choking the guy until he let her go, but seriously, wtf?

 

My point here is, I think she'd appreciate it if I didn't make any move on her without making sure she's comfortable with it. And I think she's hardly alone in this.

 

16 hours ago, gaogao said:

My opinion? Give up right now, rather than entertain any notion of any feelings developing. If any do develop, it's a pleasant surprise, but just focus on being friends with her instead of expecting or hoping for anything else.

 

15 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

I agree with gaogao @Tarfeather, for now I think you shouId focus on friendship with her and stop worrying about the rest :) is this the same girI your parents set you up with?

Hm.. I thought about these points some, and I realized that it's actually a moot point. There's quite a bit of distance between us, which makes meeting time consuming and expensive. I'm putting in the effort specifically because I have a romantic interest in her. If that weren't the case, I would still like to be friends with her, but just in pragmatic terms it would mean we would meet a whole lot less often. And I realize, that's not what I want. I want to put in the effort, because getting to see her is worth it to me.

 

In other words, trying to convince myself of just being friends and nothing more is not going to work, because neither is it how I feel about her, nor would it work out pragmatically. But on the other hand, acknowledging that I have romantic feelings for her, and just cherishing the time I get to spend with her, without placing any expectations on her, that is going to work. Just have to be honest with myself about what I'm doing.

 

@FictoVore. Yup, she is.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm confused. Isn't this "developing over time" just how things usually work? (Sorry, not trying to derail this thread)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

Tar

 

Well given her choking thing, yeah, probably better to ask, or just say that you'd really like to kiss her, when the moment comes.

 

Talking yourself into believing you're fine with a friendship has its merits, but at some point, you're going to have to take a jump into the unknown, or you definitely will only ever be friends. You can mitigate the risks by understanding the situation as thoroughly as you can, but you're never going to have perfect information.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

...  my final bit of advice ... spend less time on AVEN!!!

Ha, ha, I so need to take this advice. :lol:  (I know that's not what you meant, just joking :ph34r:)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Deus Ex Infinity

Of course. It's the only way. True love takes a lot time and patience. Every romantic feeling needs to grow and develop slowly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
paperbackreader

This thread just makes me smile :D

 

@Tarfeather, just wanna say your framing of the situation sounds reasonable. All the best! 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Late to the party but I’d also go by the desired outcome.  Suppose the perfect outcome is “she does like me (Tar) romantically and sexually and wants to date.”  What’s the number two choice:  “if not, oh well, it was worth a shot” or “if not, I still want to be friends”?

 

Would a missed opportunity at a more-than-friends relationship be more disheartening, or the loss of a potential friendship due to misjudged interest?

 

The answers help determine how much risk is worth taking... and what kind of risk.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so if it's super super important to you that you're more than friends, a better way than diving in for a kiss would be to confess your romantic feelings in a message (or in person if you could) wording it like "I have to be honest and tell you I have romantic feelings for you, it's really hard for me to admit this because I value our friendship so deeply and I am so scared of driving you away, but I need to be honest about my feeling in the hopes you feel the same".

 

I understand that Tele's advice SEEMS like the best here as a sexual male who has done this before, but I'm just concerned based off Tars track record for seriously misreading the situation and this woman also is clearly  not your average sexual woman. She is a virgin who's never had a relationship despite being in her 20s so she's clearly not the average sexual girl who is into diving into physical stuff with someone she doesn't know *that* well. Diving in for a kiss with a woman like her could potentially make her uncomfortable enough to drive her *away* which isn't something Tar wants.. she'd certainly have had sex and at least one relationship by now if she was the sort of woman who enjoyed that kind of sudden physical intimacy, especially as she's clearly not ashamed of her body. 

 

She's certainly not the average woman and if Tar wants a chance with her he needs to be careful not to scare her off by acting too much like your average sexual male which I don't think is what she wants (or else she'd have a boyfriend already, and one who doesn't already have a girlfriend at that.. because we need to remember that she's been aware C is in the picture from the start here.)

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

I take your point but for a lot of people, planning out serious earnest talks about this stuff is incredibly unromantic and can easily come across as weird and full on, when all that's required is 'I'd really like to kiss you' which is clear, specific, doesn't put her in a corner, and if she wants it too, will be really nice and romantic. If she doesn't want to be kissed, she can gracefully brush it off with the least possible embarrassment. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...