Question for demisexuals

[Jarle]

Hey folks, 

 

I'm putting together a presentation on asexuality for my organisation and had a quick question or two about demisexuality. I understand it as only experiencing sexual attraction after establishing a close emotional bond, how correct is that? How long does it take, or does it vary from person to person, relationship to relationship? How does that feeling of sexual attraction feel different from romantic or sensual attraction?

 

Okay, maybe three questions. I'm guessing there's a huge amount of variation in individual experience, but any response would be appreciated  

[Sorcerer Midnight]

Your definition of demisexuality sounds correct. Sexual attraction after a close bond is formed.

 

How close that bond needs to be varies from person to person. In my own experience, I have not experienced a close enough bond to feel sexually attracted to someone. I would need a very strong bond, one formed over the course of months. The longer the time, the closer the bond; the closer the bond, the closer I am to sexual desire. It varies heavily from person to person, though. I need a tight, close bond formed over time to feel sexually attracted to someone. It's easier for me to develop a crush than it is to develop sexual attraction.

 

For me, romantic, sensual, and sexual attraction are different. I experience all three in that order. First I develop a romantic attraction to someone, or a crush. At which point I begin to want to spend time with someone, want to be close to them, to spend all my extra time with them. I develop a sort of sensual attraction around the same time; with any man I'm crushing on, I want to kiss him, to cuddle with him, to lie next to him, to hold his hand and be close to him. In theory, I will eventually develop the desire to have sex with him, or my personal feelings on sexual attraction. For me, in my experience, sexual attraction is the desire to have sex with a specific person. I haven't been close enough to another man to have this desire in full yet, but I've come very close. I would define the separation as thus: when I have a crush (romantic/sensual attraction), I want typically "romantic" things like long walks together, kisses and snuggles, moments spent curled up together in the quiet spaces of the day. When I am sexually attracted to someone, I desire him in a sexual manner, and begin to entertain the idea of sex with him.

 

I'm not sure if this is helpful. But this is my own take on it as a demisexual man. 

[Celyn: The Lutening]

^Second this almost in its entirety, except I don't really get crushes

[Guest]

There is a lot of debate as to whether or not demisexuality is actually asexuality at all. Firstly, demisexuals have more in common with aces when they're not romantically attracted to someone, but once they have that emotional bond they're no different than anyone else. Secondly, for the most part, the way people around here attempt to define demisexuality is literally no different than any regular sexual person who doesn't desire sexual intimacy with anyone until they have developed and emotional bond which is actually really common. Emotional attraction is very important for many sexual people, certainly not all of them just look at random attractive people and want to have sex with them or enjoy one night stands or whatever  I personally think it would be worth mentioning that in your presentation but it's up to you of course  

[Homer]

Personally I don't consider demisexuality on its own as an orientation since it doesn't specify who you're attracted to. It's indicating a condition that has to be met (strong bond needs to exist). It would have to be specified (as in "demi-homo", "demi-bi" etc.)

 

I also don't agree that demi is a subcategory of asexuality.

[roland.o]

16 hours ago, Jarle said:

I understand it as only experiencing sexual attraction after establishing a close emotional bond, how correct is that?

It's the definition from the AVEN wiki, and I think the most widespread one at the moment. Some people here prefer a different definition: that it takes demisexuals an "abnormally" long time to develop sexual attraction to someone. What I like about that version is that it describes the problem which demisexuals have in establishing relationships with (allo)sexuals. The sexual is likely to give up and look for a more compatible partner before the demisexual even develops sexual attraction to them.

 

16 hours ago, Jarle said:

How long does it take, or does it vary from person to person, relationship to relationship?

It certainly varies. Think in terms of years (including "half a year"), rather than weeks.

[Guest Deus Ex Infinity]

16 hours ago, Jarle said:

Hey folks, 

 

I'm putting together a presentation on asexuality for my organisation and had a quick question or two about demisexuality. I understand it as only experiencing sexual attraction after establishing a close emotional bond, how correct is that? How long does it take, or does it vary from person to person, relationship to relationship? How does that feeling of sexual attraction feel different from romantic or sensual attraction?

It usually varies from person to person but it certainly doesn't happen 'over night'. Establishing a deep emtional bond takes a lot of time and patience.

 

As for myself: I would usually start out with a very basic feeling of sympathy which may turn into a slightly deeper romantic attraction over time before experiencing explicit sexual desire at the very end. It took about 1-2 years last time.

[noparlpf]

On 19/04/2018 at 12:54 AM, FictoVore. said:

There is a lot of debate as to whether or not demisexuality is actually asexuality at all. Firstly, demisexuals have more in common with aces when they're not romantically attracted to someone, but once they have that emotional bond they're no different than anyone else. Secondly, for the most part, the way people around here attempt to define demisexuality is literally no different than any regular sexual person who doesn't desire sexual intimacy with anyone until they have developed and emotional bond which is actually really common. Emotional attraction is very important for many sexual people, certainly not all of them just look at random attractive people and want to have sex with them or enjoy one night stands or whatever  I personally think it would be worth mentioning that in your presentation but it's up to you of course  

At least half of that isn't really accurate but I'm on mobile at the moment and I'm not used to typing on my new phone yet. I'll update this later.

 

Edit: Ok, I know you don't believe we're ace, but could you please just leave demis alone? I always see you posting about this with that distinctive purple font and it's pretty frustrating constantly seeing my identity invalidated on AVEN of all places. You're not changing our minds and we're obviously not changing yours so maybe you could just ignore us instead?

 

To address this for the OP's benefit:

When thinking about grey/demisexuality it's often convenient to distinguish between sexual attraction and the desire to engage in the act of sex. Here's the wiki page on this model. It's a bit controversial and I don't agree with it 100% but it seems to work fairly well as a starting point for thinking about grey/demisexuality.

A typical allosexual person experiences primary sexual attraction; basically, they can see a stranger and think "hey, they're hot." This is literally the entire basis for sex in advertising and for the porn industry. Some allosexual people enjoy casual sex, while others need to be romantically involved to want to engage in partnered sex. (Personally I think it might be useful for some people to distinguish between those two groups but that's just me.) Further, while a typical allosexual person is in a monogamous relationship they can still experience primary sexual attraction toward other individuals. They may or may not want to engage in sex with those people, but they can be attracted to them. (Again, this is literally the entire basis for sex in advertising and for the porn industry. Also why cheating is a thing.)

A demisexual person does not experience primary sexual attraction; basically, they're effectively asexual when not romantically involved with somebody. Depending on the person, they may develop secondary sexual attraction to their specific romantic interest. The time frame varies from person to person but think on the scale of months/years instead of days/weeks. For me it seems to start after a few months. A demisexual person in a relationship still doesn't experience primary sexual attraction toward other individuals. With respect to the general population they're still effectively asexual. "Dating" is a lot harder for a demisexual person because the entire premise of dating is you go out with somebody you're primarily attracted to so you can find out whether you get along, but if you're not capable of primary attraction it doesn't make any sense. Like, dating sites are just baffling to me, let alone tinder. I can't tell whether I could be interested in somebody just from a photo and profile.

 

I think this his line from FictoVore's post actually highlights the difference between allos and demis. "Emotional attraction is very important for many sexual people, certainly not all of them just look at random attractive people and want to have sex with them or enjoy one night stands or whatever." A demisexual person can't just look at a random person and find them attractive in the first place.

 

Anyway, sexuality is a spectrum so there's probably some overlap. It's sort of like, allos who can do casual sex - allos who experience primary sexual attraction and want to do sex but only feel comfortable doing sex with a romantic partner they trust - grey aces who may experience primary sexual attraction sporadically or under certain conditions - demis who don't experience primary sexual attraction at all and can't want to do sex until they're romantically involved - full asexuals. And I'm sure some people in the middle who might have similar experiences identify differently for various reasons. There's a reason it's called the grey area.

[allicov]

So having experienced fairly recently and with good memory the shift from being romantically attracted to physically attracted I can tell you that it's like an impulse, the electricity got turned on in the abandoned house if you will. It's a lot like how you really crave food sometimes but like turned up to 100 and directed at a person. It legitimately wasn't something I had ever experienced before and the fact that I was suddenly grinding on him while we made out was a notable difference to the contact we'd had prior and making out wasn't just motions anymore it was fun. It took me 3 months to get to that point and bear in mind I told him I was in love with him after only 1.

[WhenSummersGone]

Hopefully I can post my thoughts as a Demisexual here without getting this topic locked. There's just some things I want to share/add in a conversation like this.

 

First I can agree that Demisexual in itself is not a complete orientation, which is why I have Pan added to it, but I feel the label is important (unlike those other Tumblr labels). I've noticed over the past 2 years labels have been made fun of a lot and I'm struggling to even identify as such due to this.

 

I feel the label Demisexual is important when you have a culture of sex that you can't relate to. The dating world has changed from how it used to be and for Demisexuals, in this example specifically, lose. Some may think of us as asexual if we don't show interest quick enough. It's not a choice, it's not a preference, it's not being a prude, it's not being religious or anything like that. It's an actual interest/desire that only happens over time, like weeks or months depending on only the bond. I'm not playing the victim here but compared to allosexuals it is more difficult to date.

 

Anyways that's what I wanted to add to this. I don't post here much anymore but dating seems to just bring me back to how I experience attraction.

[Philip027]

 

On 4/27/2018 at 3:53 PM, noparlpf said:

Edit: Ok, I know you don't believe we're ace, but could you please just leave demis alone? I always see you posting about this with that distinctive purple font and it's pretty frustrating constantly seeing my identity invalidated on AVEN of all places. You're not changing our minds and we're obviously not changing yours so maybe you could just ignore us instead?

Being "invalidated" is more like being told or inferred you don't actually exist, which is not what's happening here.  Demi- having some basis in totally normal sexuality is not just opinion, it's fact.  In short, it exists... some people just won't buy it as asexuality, because to them on a scale of 0 to 1, asexuality is a flat out zero, not a 0.01, not a "zero most of the time"... you get the picture.

 

Besides, do you not think some "full asexuals", as you put it, feel some degree of invalidation when people show up claiming to be asexual, yet ultimately not really seeming to be that much different from sexual people because they're still totally capable of being drawn sexually to someone else, however rarer that might be?  You don't have to look very far on the internet to find out how much disbelief or outright scorn these sorts of people earn for asexuals (not to mention themselves, a lot of the time, from both sides of the fence)

[noparlpf]

40 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Being "invalidated" is more like being told or inferred you don't actually exist, which is not what's happening here.  Demi- having some basis in totally normal sexuality is not just opinion, it's fact.  In short, it exists... some people just won't buy it as asexuality, because to them on a scale of 0 to 1, asexuality is a flat out zero, not a 0.01, not a "zero most of the time"... you get the picture.

 

Besides, do you not think some "full asexuals", as you put it, feel some degree of invalidation when people show up claiming to be asexual, yet ultimately not really seeming to be that much different from sexual people because they're still totally capable of being drawn sexually to someone else, however rarer that might be?  You don't have to look very far on the internet to find out how much disbelief or outright scorn these sorts of people earn for asexuals (not to mention themselves, a lot of the time, from both sides of the fence)

That user in particular regularly posts in demi threads specifically to say that they don't think demisexuality is at all distinct from standard allosexuality. So yes, that is exactly what is happening here. (Compare it to searching out bisexual threads to say they're just straight people looking for attention or searching out nonbinary threads to say they're just cis people looking for attention.)

 

Obviously demisexuality isn't exactly the same as asexuality, that's why there's a different word for it. But it is definitely a subtype of grey-asexuality. Most demisexuals' default experience is asexuality and experiencing "totally normal sexuality" is the exception. Allo dating doesn't work for most of us any better than for romantic asexuals because it's predicated on experiencing primary sexual attraction. A lot of us share the common ace/grey-ace experience of feeling left out from an allo society that's constantly telling us we need to be sexually paired off or there's something wrong with us.

 

As for some people identifying as asexual when they're not 100% asexual... that's how exploring your sexuality works. Many demisexuals identify as asexual for a while because they hear of it before hearing of demisexuality and think it fits more accurately than straight/gay/bi/pan, or they aren't quite sure demi is the right descriptor vs other subtypes of grey-ace so just use the umbrella descriptor in the interim. That doesn't invalidate asexuality any more than somebody who previously identified as gay coming out as bisexual invalidates homosexuality. Should I just roll over and pretend I don't exist at all because some people on the internet can't read nuance? Promoting the marginalisation of another marginalised identity so your own might look more valid to cis straight society has never helped anybody in the long run. It's more helpful to work together as overlapping communities than to try to separate them entirely and ignore that sexuality is a spectrum. Or should we only accept aro aces as the One True Ace Identity and exclude everybody else?

[Homer]

1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

some people just won't buy it as asexuality, because to them on a scale of 0 to 1, asexuality is a flat out zero, not a 0.01, not a "zero most of the time"... 

Thank you.

 

Saying "demisexuals aren't asexual" does not say "demisexuality isn't real"; it just says that they are not asexual. Which is hard to argue against since asexuality means "not experiencing sexual attraction". I don't get how this is invalidating.

[roland.o]

6 hours ago, noparlpf said:

Obviously demisexuality isn't exactly the same as asexuality, that's why there's a different word for it. But it is definitely a subtype of grey-asexuality.

You can avoid some of the more annoying debates by using the term "grey-sexuality" instead of "grey-asexuality".

 

6 hours ago, noparlpf said:

Most demisexuals' default experience is asexuality and experiencing "totally normal sexuality" is the exception.

That sounds as if you're implying that sexuals feel sexual attraction basically all of the time, and that they also "experience asexuality" at the times when they don't. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, so please just take this as a hint that you might be misunderstood when reasoning that way.

Someone who experiences sexual attraction, even if only occasionally, still knows how it feels. Asexuals do not. Therefore, I find your concept of "default experience is asexuality" misleading. A demisexual who has not yet experienced sexual attraction may share the experience of an asexual, and even question if they are asexual. But a demisexual who has experienced sexual attraction no longer shares the experience of an asexual, namely never feeling that way, ever, and not being able to if they wanted. They can still remember how they felt before the first occurrence, and therefore maybe relate better to asexuals than allosexuals can. But it's not the same experience, neither by default nor otherwise.

[WhenSummersGone]

I certainly am not one of the people posting here that thinks Asexuality and Demisexuality are the same but they do share something in common. If you don't experience a want for sex sometimes or a period of time then that seems more like celibacy or just not in the mood which is different from Demisexuality.

 

I kind of get the feeling that Demisexuality gets the same misunderstanding as Bisexuality does, either you are straight or gay and that's just no true. You can be fully asexual (not celibate or abstaining) and then experience sexual desire with only certain people after an x amount of time.

[ChickenPadSeeEew]

On 4/19/2018 at 9:39 AM, Jarle said:

Hey folks, 

 

I'm putting together a presentation on asexuality for my organisation and had a quick question or two about demisexuality. I understand it as only experiencing sexual attraction after establishing a close emotional bond, how correct is that? How long does it take, or does it vary from person to person, relationship to relationship? How does that feeling of sexual attraction feel different from romantic or sensual attraction?

 

Okay, maybe three questions. I'm guessing there's a huge amount of variation in individual experience, but any response would be appreciated  

Hey. *waves* I'm doing a brief presentation on sexual, romantic, and gender minorities for my work, too!

 

To answer your questions as best as I can:

1. Demisexual = "Sexual attraction after an emotional bond, how correct is that?"

That's the most common definition (and some define sexual attraction as a desire for sexual intimacy with others). I think there is nothing wrong with saying that definitions are being debated and that some people instead define it as extremely rare sexual desire for sexual intimacy, and other people instead define it as desire for sexual intimacy that only occurs after a prolonged, atypical length of time.

If some people are confused, I like to give examples that show the more extreme experiences of some demisexual people first to highlight the differences e.g., some demisexual people may have regarded themselves as asexual for years, then, eventually, after a long time, did develop some desire for sexual intimacy with a long-term partner. Or demisexual people who have dated many people and cannot seem to experience desire for sexual intimacy with those partners, no matter how hard they try, but might have, only once, for a partner years ago and are frustrated that they can't seem to turn it back 'on' again.) And then I can give some less extreme versions (e.g., some ppl use the term when they feel their desire is much lower, less frequent, and/or takes a lot longer than friends. But who are your audience members, and what do you most want them to get or understand? (i.e., if you are talking with them about inclusivity, it will be important to deliver the info in that way. If they know nothing about asexuality and gray-sexuality, then, maybe they just need some brief overview of each identity you're covering.)

 

2. "How long does it take?" None of the definitions for demisexuality have clear time parameters, which is, in part, why some people dislike the definitions (others like the openness of the definitions). You could say that some demisexuals report that it takes them years, even decades (It was two decades in my case), and that for others it is shorter but is usually a time-frame that is considered outside of the norm. 

3. "How does that feeling of sexual attraction feel different from romantic or sensual attraction?" How are you defining sexual attraction? E.g., As a desire for sexual intimacy with a partner/s ? Or as looking at a person and experiencing a surge of sexual interest and feelings towards a person? Because the latter tends to suggest things like strong bodily experiences, e.g., physical attraction, sexual arousal, and psychological arousal, whereas the former suggests that any number of variables could have the person wishing to have physical closeness of a sexual kind with a person (and it may not be sexual arousal/heightened sex drive. It could be strong romantic feelings. This is my case.).
Maybe a better question for me to ask is: How much detail do you have to go in to with your team? Because, I'm probably going to keep it brief and show my group one of those "different types of attraction" posters/pics that are floating around (with the artist's permission) and with some reference to what types of behaviours/interactions some people define as romantic vs sensual etc, with a caveat that what someone defines as romantic vs sensual intimacy etc may not be defined as such by others.

[Jarle]

I'm really glad I started this, as I'm getting a lot of really good answers and learning heaps. 

I expressed the desire to include asexuality and related topics into our LGBT+ diversity training, and got approval to do so as part of a broader update, which included among other things that marriage equality legislation had passed (goes to show how long it had been!). Given the breadth of the resources I was only able to include a small snippet about asexuality and romantic attraction, which is still a bit of a victory, and that was passed at the last diversity meeting. The group members seemed like they knew about asexuality in passing but not in detail, so I'll be continuing to represent the interests of the community there, and I want to keep this thread up so I learn more and more. Demisexuality is something I know more about in theory than practice, so it's good to hear personal experiences and a little bit of debate going on. 

[Jarle]

@ChickenPadSeeEew In answer to your question/s I'm looking at putting together a brief overview of asexuality and related concepts to deliver to various people engaged in mental and general health professions. In anticipation of some of the questions that I might encounter I want to be able to discuss some of the lived experiences of people identifying as demisexual. In addition to providing insight into the lives of any demi clients they might have, I also think asexuality as a concept adds some value into understanding human relationships as a whole. 

[Dia Nicole]

On 5/22/2018 at 6:12 PM, roland.o said:

Someone who experiences sexual attraction, even if only occasionally, still knows how it feels. Asexuals do not. Therefore, I find your concept of "default experience is asexuality" misleading. A demisexual who has not yet experienced sexual attraction may share the experience of an asexual, and even question if they are asexual. But a demisexual who has experienced sexual attraction no longer shares the experience of an asexual, namely never feeling that way, ever, and not being able to if they wanted. They can still remember how they felt before the first occurrence, and therefore maybe relate better to asexuals than allosexuals can. But it's not the same experience, neither by default nor otherwise.

I kind of find this funny. Not because I think your point of view is wrong necessarily. But simply because I really don't remember what it feels like to be sexually attracted to someone. I don't know if this is just me but I have only ever felt sexual attraction to one person for a few months. I know it happened. I have messages I can read where I freaked out to friends about it. But I can honestly not remember what it felt like. It's like when you get told something you did when you were little and your parents even have pictures. So you know you did it but have no first hand recollection of the actual event. 

 

Also to answer the original question here, yes your definition is correct. How long it takes to feel sexual attraction depends on the person but usually takes months if not years. It took me over 2 years to feel sexually attracted to someone. Also, for me romantic and sensual attraction are intertwined. I usually realize I'm romantically attracted to someone when I notice I want to hold there hand and cuddle all the time and that I want  to kiss them. 

[RK800]

On 4/18/2018 at 7:39 PM, Jarle said:

Hey folks, 

 

I'm putting together a presentation on asexuality for my organisation and had a quick question or two about demisexuality.

1. I understand it as only experiencing sexual attraction after establishing a close emotional bond, how correct is that?

2. How long does it take, or does it vary from person to person, relationship to relationship?

3. How does that feeling of sexual attraction feel different from romantic or sensual attraction?

 

Okay, maybe three questions. I'm guessing there's a huge amount of variation in individual experience, but any response would be appreciated  

1. That is correct.

2. Varies from person to person and relationship to relationship, but it took about a year and a half for me to experience attraction in my current relationship.

3. It feels physically like directed arousal, and mentally makes me interested in sex with that particular person. Romantic attraction feels like a warm fuzzy feeling in my stomach, makes me weak in the knees, and sensual attraction makes me just want to hug of cuddle the person.