two not-directly-sex-related questions for asexuals

[ryn2]

This came up in discussion in another part of these forums and now I’m curious if it’s “just me” or more generalized.

 

First, do you ever experience what you would describe as ecstasy (in any context, not necessarily sex), alone or as part of a partnered/multi-person activity?  An example of the latter mentioned previously was while performing live music with a group of musicians.

 

Second, do you enjoy or dislike situations where you are/feel out of control in the presence of one or more other people, and/or where someone else loses control in front of you?  In other words, do you find sharing - mutually, or in either direction - being out of control/vulnerable with someone else present helps build/deepen/ honor a trusting bond, or do you feel uncomfortable (afraid, embarrassed, just generally not good, etc.)?

 

[paperbackreader]

1 I guess but not sure if it qualifies as 'ecstasy'. Immense satisfaction at getting a job well done, or working out a problem, whether alone or in a group. 

 

2 Don't always dislike it, although there have been times where after an event of control loss I've regretted it, but also times where I've appreciated the circumstance and relationship building. 

[Browncoat10]

Pretty sure it's a no to the first one, but there's still time I guess.

 

Definitely uncomfortable to the second one. That's why I don't drink and hate being around people who are drinking.

[ryn2]

17 minutes ago, paperbackreader said:

1 I guess but not sure if it qualifies as 'ecstasy'. Immense satisfaction at getting a job well done, or working out a problem, whether alone or in a group. 

 

2 Don't always dislike it, although there have been times where after an event of control loss I've regretted it, but also times where I've appreciated the circumstance and relationship building. 

Thanks!  I am the same with #1, but am getting the sense that doesn’t have the same body/mind “lost in the moment” quality to it that ecstasy has.

[Yatagarasu]

1. As long as I'm aware? Nope. I'm also not prone to be affected by the ASMR inducing stuff.

2. Uncomfortabe, definitely.

[Alejandrogynous]

1) It doesn't happen often but yeah, I've experienced ecstasy (and I'm not just talking about the drug, ). One moment that stands out in my mind was watching the dawn come up after being up all night with friends at a beautiful campsite. It was amazing. Or sometimes when the weather is just perfect, grey and gusty, and I have to stand outside with my arms out to feel the rush.

 

2) Depends. It's uncomfortable when there's an imbalance to it, like being the sober one while other people are drunk or worse, being drunk and everyone else is sober. But when it's done together with someone or in a group, I do feel that deepening bond/trust/etc. Drinking or using other substances together is my favorite way to get to know someone because it's like all the awkward politeness and small talk goes right out the window and we can dive right into passionate conversation.

[Galactic Turtle]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

First, do you ever experience what you would describe as ecstasy (in any context, not necessarily sex), alone or as part of a partnered/multi-person activity?  An example of the latter mentioned previously was while performing live music with a group of musicians.

I don't think I'd use "ecstasy" to describe any of my experiences. Overwhelming excitement? Being in my element? Being in awe? Absolute joy? I have experienced these moments, but ecstasy is not the word I'd use to describe them. Perhaps the closest that would come to that would be a Star Wars museum exhibit I attended where I got to sit in the pilot's seat of the Millennium Falcon. On the display in front, it showed the view the ship would have when going into hyperspace. It was really simple but it's also one of my favorite childhood moments. There are few times I've been happier than at that moment.

 

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Second, do you enjoy or dislike situations where you are/feel out of control in the presence of one or more other people, and/or where someone else loses control in front of you?  In other words, do you find sharing - mutually, or in either direction - being out of control/vulnerable with someone else present helps build/deepen/ honor a trusting bond, or do you feel uncomfortable (afraid, embarrassed, just generally not good, etc.)?

My least favorite thing is being out of control or not being aware of my surroundings. I think it's the reason why I never found alcohol or drugs appealing. I don't like taking random naps or sleeping in public. Dealing with out of control people I'd describe as being more of a pain. I enjoy order, following plans. Anyone being out of control in any situation I'd find very hard to see as a positive. Willingly being out of control I'd categorize as something unwise.

[paperbackreader]

@Galactic Turtle love your description of positive experiences!

 

@ryn2 if and when I find a moment of ecstasy I will check back in with you . For now I call them 'YAY! Ahhhh...' moments 

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I don't like taking random naps or sleeping in public. 

Ugh, me neither!  I have the worst time sleeping on planes or trains, even overnight when I know I need to.

 

As a kid, if I was at/hosting a sleepover, I was up half the night making sure I was the last asleep and the first awake.

[ryn2]

Thanks, everyone!  I feel like a little less of an outlier now.

[SilentRose]

Interesting questions

 

1- I'd say the closest thing I could compare this too was a few years ago in college a group of kids saw me drawing and started telling me what an amazing artist I was- it may sound vain, but I was so proud in that moment, to me it was total euphoria  I also love massages- those are mini-euphoric experiences every time

 

2- That's actually a really interesting question. Generally, I hate feeling that way, vulnerable... but on occasion it makes me feel a rush. I don't drink heavily and am terrified to because I'm afraid to lose control- also I wouldn't skydive or even go on a roller-coaster. But I did end up sharing a poem that was extremely personal to me once to a large group of people, and it was both terrifying, felt exposing...but I did get some excitement from it

 

[ryn2]

Thanks, @SilentRose!  That’s an interesting point... I don’t feel nearly as vulnerable posting a fic as I do in other situations, and I do feel excitement as kudos and positive comments arrive.

 

Maybe that’s because I write under a pseudonym and am only “out” about my writing to a few people I actually have to look straight in the eye.

[Mermaidy]

The first question is basically do I experience fun only alone or only with other people or both? If so then both alone and with other people

 

The second question: took me five minutes to understand so maybe I still misunderstood, but I don't enjoy feeling out of control in any context. it doesn't interest me

[Telecaster68]

20 hours ago, ryn2 said:

First, do you ever experience what you would describe as ecstasy (in any context, not necessarily sex), alone or as part of a partnered/multi-person activity?  An example of the latter mentioned previously was while performing live music with a group of musicians.

 

Second, do you enjoy or dislike situations where you are/feel out of control in the presence of one or more other people, and/or where someone else loses control in front of you?  In other words, do you find sharing - mutually, or in either direction - being out of control/vulnerable with someone else present helps build/deepen/ honor a trusting bond, or do you feel uncomfortable (afraid, embarrassed, just generally not good, etc.)?

I think this came from something I said. I was reaching for an experience that is both shared and personal, because sex is both shared and personal, and the nearest I could come up with was playing music in a group. Partly you're absorbed in playing your own instrument, but you're also acutely aware of other people, and responding and interacting with them - and they're doing the same with you. When this is going well, there's a unique kind of joy to it.

 

And what CBC says about being out of control/vulnerable is pretty common I think. By definition, we don't want to be vulnerable with people we don't trust, and the more vulnerable we are, the more we need to trust them. Since sex makes us extremely vulnerable, the trust has to be deep, and I think the bonding comes from the repeated experience of it not being violated, that we're safe with this person.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think this came from something I said.

It did, tele.  That discussion made me wonder whether a different body/mind response to things in general, not just sex, figures into my asexuality... and, if so, whether I am the only one in that situation.

 

I figured it was better to take it over here than to hijack the original thread.

[Telecaster68]

15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Since sex makes us extremely vulnerable, the trust has to be deep, and I think the bonding comes from the repeated experience of it not being violated, that we're safe with this person

Continuing that thought...

 

So maybe the underlying urge behind asexuality (if that's the right word), that sex isn't about sharing, is to do with not, ever, getting to the point where that trust can even be tentatively considered. Our minds can do all sorts of gymnastics to protect us from things we're scared of, and bracketing sex (and frequently touch, time spent with people etc too) as 'just don't want to' could be that kind of protection.

 

Which isn't to pathologise it, any more than the way any underlying anxiety that shapes our behaviour is a pathology. I'm just saying none of us is fully aware of the complexities of our motivations.

[ryn2]

That’s certainly a possibility in some cases, although I’ve heard people say that’s not their experience.

 

I was thinking (for the first question) more along the lines of “if I don’t experience ecstasy (over anything), maybe that makes certain types of things which aren’t  intrinsically pleasant less appealing to me than they are for others.”

 

As a (slightly different) example, narcotics cause nausea.  They also cause, for many people, a pleasant euphoric feeling.  That feeling is strong enough to

make any unpleasantness (nausea, perhaps vomiting) easily tolerable.

 

I don’t get that euphoria.  I just get the nausea, along with feeling tired and a bit dizzy.

 

Whereas other people are all “woohoo!” over their post-op/post-injury pain meds, I don’t even bother to fill the prescription.

[Telecaster68]

On narcotics... my understanding is they initially cause nausea, then after that, it's 'woohoo'. Maybe there's a parallel with initial sexual experiences being somewhat painful or awkward, then after that, it's 'woohoo'... But the point is, there's no 'nausea' to get over with sex for most people, most of the time.

 

3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

That’s certainly a possibility in some cases, although I’ve heard people say that’s not their experience.

I'm saying they may not be entirely aware of their own thought processes, because we get used to them, and they get hard wired. I know it's happened to me, and things like therapy can make people more aware of what's going on, so they can change it, if it's causing them distress.

 

I'm aware this is getting close to 'healing' asexuality; I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that quite often a lack of intimacy and closeness, and distress about that seems to go with asexuality, and maybe therapy can help with that. It would also be consistent with asexuals who discover with the right partner they're not asexual; they've found someone they can trust.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

On narcotics... my understanding is they initially cause nausea, then after that, it's 'woohoo'. Maybe there's a parallel with initial sexual experiences being somewhat painful or awkward, then after that, it's 'woohoo'... But the point is, there's no 'nausea' to get over with sex for most people, most of the time.

 

I'm saying they may not be entirely aware of their own thought processes, because we get used to them, and they get hard wired. I know it's happened to me, and things like therapy can make people more aware of what's going on, so they can change it, if it's causing them distress.

 

I'm aware this is getting close to 'healing' asexuality; I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that quite often a lack of intimacy and closeness, and distress about that seems to go with asexuality, and maybe therapy can help with that. It would also be consistent with asexuals who discover with the right partner they're not asexual; they've found someone they can trust.

Yeah, I never get the high.  Just the nausea, and then nothing.  I don’t get “runner’s high” either, and didn’t when I was a distance runner.

 

With sex, if you strip away the ecstasy and you strip away the bonding, you’re not necessarily left with nausea but you might well be left with something that’s not worth the hassle.

 

I can’t really speak to the trust thing.  I’d want to hear people’s opinions on the role trust plays in their lives overall, not just for aces but for sexuals as well.

[Telecaster68]

Well CBC and I have the sexual side started....

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

So maybe the underlying urge behind asexuality (if that's the right word), that sex isn't about sharing, is to do with not, ever, getting to the point where that trust can even be tentatively considered. Our minds can do all sorts of gymnastics to protect us from things we're scared of, and bracketing sex (and frequently touch, time spent with people etc too) as 'just don't want to' could be that kind of protection.

 

2 hours ago, CBC said:

Anything specific you're wanting to enquire about? The role of trust is a very broad topic.

Tele postulated the above.  I’d be curious to hear what people think about the role of trust in sex, and to see whether there is any division of opinion between ace and sexual folks.

 

When I asked the original second question about about feeling out of control/being around people who were out of control, I was thinking more gut reaction/anxiety/excitement and not so much about underlying trust, but his angle is also interesting 

[Telecaster68]

Wider trust is needed for that out of controlness to be okay, I'd say. Time helps build trust but sometimes there's enough based on just a few hours.

[ryn2]

I don’t enjoy being out of control in anyone’s presence, even if I have known them all my life and/or love them dearly.  I trust some of them with my life (riding in a car while they drive, letting them belay me while climbing “rock” walls/other belaying) and sometimes with access to my bank account.  I may trust them not to reveal my secrets.

 

While I’m certainly not the world’s most trusting person I don’t feel like I never trust anyone, ever.

 

Maybe you experience different sorts of trust?

[Telecaster68]

Maybe another way to describe it is being comfortable with that person seeing you when you're not in a position to present an image to them. Trust comes into it because you have to know they won't reject you or use it against you.

[Guest]

1) I think falling for someone new and getting to know them inside out (whether fictional or 'real') is the closest I come to ecstasy - it literally changes every aspect of my life for the better, for a short time anyway  Another quite ecstatic experience (though very different) is drawing while listening to a good audiobook. I go into a meditative state where I become very talented, and afterwards I'm like ''wow, I have no idea how I did that!'' lol

 

2) depends on the context. For example many people feel closer intimately and emotionally (even spiritually) to their partner through what you described (quote: ''where you are/feel out of control in the presence of one or more other people, and/or where someone else loses control in front of you?  In other words, do you find sharing - mutually, or in either direction - being out of control/vulnerable with someone else present helps build/deepen/ honor a trusting bond'') when it's part of sexual intimacy, but like, in an office meeting or in the car with someone who is driving or whatever, most people would become EXTREMELY uncomfortable with someone 'losing control', for obvious reasons!) .. so yeah, does that make sense? Sexually with someone I am emotionally connected to, I could enjoy it and would prefer sex to be the way you described. In any other circumstance though I'd prefer people control themselves near me and I'll control myself too, haha!!

[Telecaster68]

What you're saying about trust @CBC is kind of what I meant earlier. A lot of asexuals seem to view vulnerability as a bad thing, blanket, and I do think it must impact with how they feel about sex. No idea whether it's cause, effect, or just a correlation though.

[ryn2]

11 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Maybe another way to describe it is being comfortable with that person seeing you when you're not in a position to present an image to them. Trust comes into it because you have to know they won't reject you or use it against you.

Hm.  To me that’s more about being comfortable with myself than trusting of the other person to take it well.  I’ll have to ponder it more.

 

In some cases I trust the other person to have great intentions and mean well but not to make the right choices for me (right meaning the ones I would make for myself)?  Something like that. I’m thinking more of incapacitation than sex, though.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

1) I think falling for someone new and getting to know them inside out (whether fictional or 'real') is the closest I come to ecstasy - it literally changes every aspect of my life for the better, for a short time anyway  Another quite ecstatic experience (though very different) is drawing while listening to a good audiobook. I go into a meditative state where I become very talented, and afterwards I'm like ''wow, I have no idea how I did that!'' lol

 

2) depends on the context. For example many people feel closer intimately and emotionally (even spiritually) to their partner through what you described (quote: ''where you are/feel out of control in the presence of one or more other people, and/or where someone else loses control in front of you?  In other words, do you find sharing - mutually, or in either direction - being out of control/vulnerable with someone else present helps build/deepen/ honor a trusting bond'') when it's part of sexual intimacy, but like, in an office meeting or in the car with someone who is driving or whatever, most people would become EXTREMELY uncomfortable with someone 'losing control', for obvious reasons!) .. so yeah, does that make sense? Sexually with someone I am emotionally connected to, I could enjoy it and would prefer sex to be the way you described. In any other circumstance though I'd prefer people control themselves near me and I'll control myself too, haha!!

That makes perfect sense.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah it is partly about being comfortable with yourself, and most people aren't, so it's about someone else accepting you with all your flaws.

[ryn2]

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

What you're saying about trust @CBC is kind of what I meant earlier. A lot of asexuals seem to view vulnerability as a bad thing, blanket, and I do think it must impact with how they feel about sex. No idea whether it's cause, effect, or just a correlation though.

Yeah, hard to know if someone doesn’t enjoy/feel drawn to sex because they don’t/can’t feel vulnerable in a sexual setting, or if they aren’t comfortable being vulnerable because they don’t enjoy the sex.