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Mary Lambert

I think, my ACE husband has ruined sex for me?

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Sally
15 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Does that apply to all the posts dropping blame exclusively at the cheater's feet too?

Tele, I was referring to the posts claiming that the fault for cheating should be laid at the feet of the person who's not having sex with the person who's cheating.    So in response to your question, no, the person who's cheating is to blame.

 

And just to be clear (although you must already know this), cheating means doing something without telling your partner when you KNOW that your partner would be hurt by you doing it.  In other words -- not having the courage to tell your partner that you are going outside the relationship to have sex.  

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Telecaster68

So why does James not have the right to say who's to blame but you do? 

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James121
8 hours ago, Sally said:

I was referring to the posts claiming that the fault for cheating should be laid at the feet of the person who's not having sex with the person who's cheating. 

I didn’t say any such thing. 

To clarify, my viewpoint is this....

 

When someone cheats because their partner wouldn’t have sex with them and didn’t have the brains to offer any agreeable solution, there are 2 people who we should attribute blame to. 

The cheater AND the refuser.

 

No one ever attributes any blame to the refuser because it’s not considered emotionally fair to blame a ‘victim’. But that’s not fair in my opinion.

 

I judge this against my own morals. My morals tell me that if I repeatedly refused to engage with my willing and enthusiastic partner that they would likely:

- become sexually frustrated

- suffer self esteem issues

- be concerned about sexual performance 

- develop resentment

- be more susceptible to flirtatious advances

- end up having sex with someone else

 

I’m not saying I’m a genius. I just think you have to be thick as two short planks not to see this. If not thick, selfish as hell to let your spouse go through all of the above.

 

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Sally
49 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So why does James not have the right to say who's to blame but you do? 

Because the cheater is the one who doing the action: cheating.  You know, that's kind of obvious.

 

If the cheater wants sex and the cheater's partner doesn't, then the cheater should probably decide that this relationship doesn't work.  That seems obvious: if the situation is bad enough that someone cheats (i.e., goes outside the marriage and doesn't tell his partner), it's time to say goodbye.  Because the cheating in itself will further ruin the relationship.  Somehow I don't think you'd disagree with that, Tele. 

 

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Telecaster68

And the person who, in your words, made it bad enough for that to happen, bears absolutely no responsibility for making it that bad?

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Thea2

IMHO, if an impossible situation arises in which the only solution for you is to cheat, then carry the burden of guilt on your own. I.e. have the decency not to tell your partner about it, telling about it would just be cruel. And make sure you don’t carry diseases back home.

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James121
6 hours ago, Sally said:

Because the cheater is the one who doing the action: cheating.  You know, that's kind of obvious.

An action that is a result of an action. That’s also kind of obvious.

 

6 hours ago, Sally said:

 If the cheater wants sex and the cheater's partner doesn't, then the cheater should probably decide that this relationship doesn't work. 

Or the refuser could think, “he/she wants sex that I can’t/won’t offer. Perhaps I should end this”. Ideally before the relationship gets serious.

6 hours ago, Sally said:

Somehow I don't think you'd disagree with that,

Somehow I know you’ll disagree.

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vega57
10 hours ago, James121 said:

When someone cheats because their partner wouldn’t have sex with them and didn’t have the brains to offer any agreeable solution, there are 2 people who we should attribute blame to. 

The cheater AND the refuser.

No one ever attributes any blame to the refuser because it’s not considered emotionally fair to blame a ‘victim’. But that’s not fair in my opinion.

Not true.  Only the cheater is responsible for his/her cheating.  The non-cheater is NEVER responsible for the actions of the cheater.

 

Each individual is responsible for his or her own actions.  Unless our partner is holding a gun to our heads, we don't get to say, "S/HE MADE ME DO IT!"   Even some cheaters who agree to go to therapy, as steadfast as they are in their position, the cheater will often admit that *they* were responsible for their own choices, and that their actions were egotistical and selfish.  

Quote

 

I judge this against my own morals. My morals tell me that if I repeatedly refused to engage with my willing and enthusiastic partner that they would likely:

- become sexually frustrated

- suffer self esteem issues

- be concerned about sexual performance 

- develop resentment

- be more susceptible to flirtatious advances

- end up having sex with someone else

 

Do you understand that even people who are happy in their relationships still cheat?  You could be swinging on chandeliers with your partner every day and night...be physically fit and physically attractive...do all the 'right' things, and your cheating partner may even tell you that you're "perfect" just the way you are.  Yet, they still cheated.  Why?  

 

Because it comes down to the cheater's ego.  A cheater may have EVERYTHING s/he wants, except MORE of it.  

 

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vega57
10 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

And the person who, in your words, made it bad enough for that to happen, bears absolutely no responsibility for making it that bad?

No.  

 

The cheater always had other choices before cheating:

 

1.  Read some books about the problem.

2.  Consult a therapist about the problem.   (and I don't mean just a session or two)

3.  Read or be coached on decent communication.

4.  Talk to a clergy member (if you have religious ideals)

5.  Try to negotiate 'better' with your spouse.  

6.  Trial separation (with the agreement that each partner will 'do their own thing' while separated)

7.  Try on a different attitude toward sex (which rarely happens)

8.  Divorce

 

Cheaters will often overestimate how much they 'tried' before cheating, because their ego doesn't want to see them as the 'bad guy'.  

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Only the cheater is responsible for his/her cheating.  The non-cheater is NEVER responsible for the actions of the cheater.

Nobody's saying entirely responsible. But when your partner highlights something wrong in the relationship and you shrug it off, you're not devoid of responsibility if you don't like whatever remaining option he picks.

 

7 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Do you understand that even people who are happy in their relationships still cheat?

Some. But mostly not, from what I've seen. The reddit adultery sub seems at least 70% made up of dead bedrooms as a cause, and many of the non-dead bedrooms have pretty crappy relationships that do include sex.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, vega57 said:

No.  

 

The cheater always had other choices before cheating:

 

1.  Read some books about the problem.

2.  Consult a therapist about the problem.   (and I don't mean just a session or two)

3.  Read or be coached on decent communication.

4.  Talk to a clergy member (if you have religious ideals)

5.  Try to negotiate 'better' with your spouse.  

6.  Trial separation (with the agreement that each partner will 'do their own thing' while separated)

7.  Try on a different attitude toward sex (which rarely happens)

8.  Divorce

 

Cheaters will often overestimate how much they 'tried' before cheating, because their ego doesn't want to see them as the 'bad guy'.  

I haven't cheated, but I've tried 1-7 (except 4 as I'm not religious, and 6), and so have most sexual partners from what I've read. They tend not to make any difference.

 

Interesting that only one of them involves even the slightest expectation of compromise from the spouse.

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vega57
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Nobody's saying entirely responsible.

They have NO responsibility for the cheating, period.  Not 1%.  Not .0005%.  Nada.  

 

Quote

But when your partner highlights something wrong in the relationship and you shrug it off, you're not devoid of responsibility if you don't like whatever remaining option he picks.

Depends on what option he picks.  If he picked divorce, that would also be his choice.  But here's the difference:  There's nothing wrong with divorce.  There is something wrong with cheating/adultery.  

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Evren

I think the thing that really bugs me about cheating is the inherent deceit in the process. However I also can't understand how a loving partner could see someone continue to be absolutely miserable everyday and not say. "You can go find someone to have sex with, I'm ok with that." I apparently don't have normal sexual or romantic expectations though, because almost no one seems to agree with me on that point.

I also did know a guy, who loved his wife and they had sex, a lot and he still cheated on her, because he was upset about his decision to get married as it was "cramping" his one night stands. That really bugged me, especially because he talked about it all the time and it was awkward.  

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Telecaster68
5 minutes ago, vega57 said:

They have NO responsibility for the cheating, period.  Not 1%.  Not .0005%.  Nada.  

 

Depends on what option he picks.  If he picked divorce, that would also be his choice.  But here's the difference:  There's nothing wrong with divorce.  There is something wrong with cheating/adultery.  

Does the asexual have any responsibility at all for the state of the relationship? For instance, if their partner is unhappy, and they could do something to help, do you think there's a moral duty for them to do it? 

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vega57
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I haven't cheated, but I've tried 1-7 (except 4 as I'm not religious, and 6), and so have most sexual partners from what I've read. They tend not to make any difference.

 

Actually, most sexual partner's haven't even come close to doing what I've listed.  They might read an article or two, if it crosses their path...talk to a (male) friend if they go out for a beer...even browse a few forums...bitch about it to a bowling buddy just to let off steam.  They don't really make much of an effort.    

 

Communication is a big deal, but many cheaters either:  Nag their partner to death about sex and then eventually cheat OR, 'suffer' in silence.  Neither is what communication is all about.  

 

If you want something from your partner, you get to ask in a respectful manner.  Not angry.  Not insulting.  Not mean.  Not cutting or biting.  Not sarcastic.  Not accusatory.  You simply state the facts.  You do that once.  Maaaaaaaybe twice in a certain time period.  After that, if nothing changes, you get to re-evaluate the situation.  Are you expectations unreasonable?  (Most people would say 'no' automatically).  The reason why you're re-evaluating is to figure out if you can either:  Live peacefully with the situation (and if you can, then you DROP it and never bring it up again) OR, if you need to end the relationship.  

 

By the way, most cheaters either get caught at some point OR they confess.  Either way, they're taking a big chance.  

 

Interesting that only one of them involves even the slightest expectation of compromise from the spouse.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Evren said:

I also can't understand how a loving partner could see someone continue to be absolutely miserable everyday and not say. "You can go find someone to have sex with, I'm ok with that."

Part 1 of this, poly leanings or not aside, has to be honest communication as to what’s actually wrong on the part of the miserable partner.

 

I know some people on here have definitely had, or at least believe they have had, conversations where they’ve explained what is causing their misery (and even what might fix it), but - where people suffer in silence/claim nothing is wrong/blame things that aren’t the problem - expecting the ace partner to read minds isn’t going to accomplish anything.

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Evren
Just now, ryn2 said:

Part 1 of this, poly leanings or not aside, has to be honest communication as to what’s actually wrong on the part of the miserable partner.

 

I know some people on here have definitely had, or at least believe they have had, conversations where they’ve explained what is causing their misery (and even what might fix it), but - where people suffer in silence/claim nothing is wrong/blame things that aren’t the problem - expecting the ace partner to read minds isn’t going to accomplish anything.

Yeah definitely. You have to talk it out. But once you have and neither of you want to leave and your partner still wants you to stay and be miserable. I start to wonder if there is a way to make the "right" choice.

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James121
30 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Unless our partner is holding a gun to our heads

Predictable, the old gun to the head phrase

31 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Do you understand that even people who are happy in their relationships still cheat?

Yes, it’s extremely rare

32 minutes ago, vega57 said:

A cheater may have EVERYTHING s/he wants, except MORE of it.

The same as the refuser which is why sex slowly dwindles away

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Telecaster68
10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Actually, most sexual partner's haven't even come close to doing what I've listed.  They might read an article or two, if it crosses their path...talk to a (male) friend if they go out for a beer...even browse a few forums...bitch about it to a bowling buddy just to let off steam.  They don't really make much of an effort.    

I find that rather offensive. How do you know this? You know I cited a bunch of posts where sexuals were trying to resolve the situation. Can you cite a bunch where they're not? 

 

Nothing about what responsibilities an asexual partner might have, I notice. (Perhaps you hit post too soon?)

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uhtred

My wife doesn’t think lack of sex should be a problem. She ha in other contexts indicated that she couldn’t tolerate me cheating. She has also said how utterly miserable she would be if I left.  

 

Doesnt leave ave me a lot of choices. 

 

If if I leave I hurt her very badly. So I stay. But I wouldn’t blame myself for cheating. 

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Evren
1 minute ago, uhtred said:

My wife doesn’t think lack of sex should be a problem. She ha in other contexts indicated that she couldn’t tolerate me cheating. She has also said how utterly miserable she would be if I left.  

 

Doesnt leave ave me a lot of choices. 

 

If if I leave I hurt her very badly. So I stay. But I wouldn’t blame myself for cheating. 

Yeah see in situations like that, I have trouble understanding what options you have left. You divorce she's upset, you stay and your miserable. You cheat and she's upset. I think a lot of asexual people don't understand exactly how important sex is to sexual people. I don't personally understand it either, but I listened to the sexual people on here, and they told me about how important it is to them. And I can respect that. It leaves me in a bit of a crappy situation, because I'm fairly sure that I should never date a sexual person. However, I'm alright being single, I don't really understand relationships either so I wouldn't want to make someone else miserable because of me. 

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vega57
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Does the asexual have any responsibility at all for the state of the relationship?

Of course, but again, it depends on the situation.  It's not a 50/50 situation.  Even my late husband told several therapists that he contributed to the 'lion's share' of the problems in our marriage.  While I wasn't completely 'blameless', the things that I did didn't cause him to do what he did.  

 

Quote

For instance, if their partner is unhappy, and they could do something to help, do you think there's a moral duty for them to do it

Nope.  And, here's why:

 

Anyone can say that they're "unhappy" for ANY reason.  I could say that I'm 'unhappy' because my partner has $600 in his wallet, but he won't give it ALL to me.  Or that I'm 'unhappy' because my wife works in an office with a (gay) man, and I don't want her near any other men.  

 

People take advantage of each other every day.  

 

People can also say that they "need" help, when they really don't "need" any help at all; they just don't feel like doing 'it'  at all, or they don't feel like don't 'it' alone.  

 

 

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Telecaster68

So spouses don't owe each other any support at all?

 

Is that in the marriage vows too?

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vega57
26 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I find that rather offensive. How do you know this? You know I cited a bunch of posts where sexuals were trying to resolve the situation. Can you cite a bunch where they're not? 

Go on some of the heartbreaking forums about cheating.  There's a ton of information about it.  Back in the day, I spent a lot of time of infidelity forums (and reading books about infidelity) because I was with a partner who cheated (this was after my late husband's passing).  And it wasn't because of the lack of sex.  It was because he simply wanted something 'new', and failed to tell ME about it.  

 

Cheating isn't usually something that's planned well in advance of cheating.  The person who cheated on me actually told the woman he cheated with (before he cheated with her) that *we* had a "pretty great thing together!"  He told me he was in love with me only 3 weeks before dropping the bomb on my head.  After that, I spent the next two years looking for information about cheating.  You'd be surprised...and a lot of information comes from the 'reformed' cheaters themselves.  

 

Quote

Nothing about what responsibilities an asexual partner might have, I notice. (Perhaps you hit post too soon?)

LOL!  Yeah, I did.  I sort of lost my train of thought now...

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vega57
30 minutes ago, uhtred said:

My wife doesn’t think lack of sex should be a problem. She ha in other contexts indicated that she couldn’t tolerate me cheating. She has also said how utterly miserable she would be if I left.  

 

Doesnt leave ave me a lot of choices. 

 

If if I leave I hurt her very badly. So I stay. But I wouldn’t blame myself for cheating. 

You make it sound like, if you DID leave, she'd be miserable forever and ever.  

 

She'd probably be upset for a while, but eventually, she probably WOULD become happy again.  It's not a permanent state of being.  

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vega57
14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So spouses don't owe each other any support at all?

Tele, you keep on asking these general questions.  Of course spouses are supposed to 'support' each other, but to what degree?  Do they actually "owe" each other any support at all?  

 

One thing I don't like about marriage is the idea that once married (for quite a few), everything becomes obligatory.  My late husband actually believed that the only reason I told him that I loved him (after we were married) was because I *HAD* to tell him.  Once married, what I did was no longer voluntary; now it was mandatory.  If I cooked for him before we were married, he appreciated it.  Once married, he expected it.  

 

Some cheating men even reported that the reason they cheated was for the freedom they didn't get inside their marriage.  Some of them no longer believed that their wives REALLY loved them...even through sex...because it was their wives 'duty' as a wife to do these things.  The wive didn't have sex out of love; she had sex because she *had* to, as a wife.  

 

Quote

Is that in the marriage vows too?

Hmm...let's see...

 

Quote

In the United States, Catholic wedding vows may also take the following form: I, ____, take you, ____, to be my lawfully wedded (husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.

And let's not get into the "to have and to hold" clause.  I've explained this a number of times, and it has nothing to do with sex.  It's not about the physical 'having and holding'.  

 

Eh.  Maybe some kind of support is implied.  

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Of course spouses are supposed to 'support' each other, but to what degree?  Do they actually "owe" each other any support at all?  

To the degree I described - if they know there's something they could do to cheer up a spouse, do you think they ought to do it? That they'd be lacking if they didn't?

 

And I wasn't talking about having and holding or sex. I meant do you think there's anything in marriage vows that means you should give emotional support?

 

 

 

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vega57
10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

To the degree I described - if they know there's something they could do to cheer up a spouse, do you think they ought to do it? That they'd be lacking if they didn't?

Once again, it depends!  

 

Quote

And I wasn't talking about having and holding or sex. I meant do you think there's anything in marriage vows that means you should give emotional support?

"Should" give?  No.  

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Telecaster68

Okay, you've avoided saying you think spouses should be supportive of each other three times. I think I understand your position and I understand why you wouldn't want to spell it out.

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vega57
26 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Okay, you've avoided saying you think spouses should be supportive of each other three times. I think I understand your position and I understand why you wouldn't want to spell it out.

And you have deliberately generalized in order to try and trap me into saying something that I'm not about to say.  

 

I'll say it ONE MORE TIME.

 

TO A DEGREE.  It's not the kind of question that can be answered realistically with a 'yes' or 'no' answer.  

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