Interesting article about seeking sex outside one's marriage

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

It was out of the blue to me, yes. I explained it - long version - in the compromise thread a while back but this is the shorter version:

 

My husband has always had significant ED (even before we married).  He has always been extremely uncomfortable talking about sex, to the point where he would shut down or become very upset.

 

Several years ago he stopped initiating sex.  He says (and I believe him - I just don’t recall the event) this was because I turned him down while on vacation.  I almost never turned him down but was quite seasick that trip so it’s doubtless true.

 

We had a lot of other things going on - trouble with work and hobbies - so I figured the change was due to that... and then I gradually thought maybe he was ace (or gay) too and that had caused the ED.

 

The first I found out it wasn’t that was late this January.

 

In hindsight not insisting on talking about it was a big mistake.

Oh, I do remember it now. Yeah, it sounded like he's the one with the communication issues.

[ryn2]

7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Oh, I do remember it now. Yeah, it sounded like he's the one with the communication issues.

Yeah, having listened to everyone here I can see how most people would not have let it go so long without insisting on a discussion, would have recognized it as a major issue, etc... but between being ace and having already dealt with more than 15 years of ED issues and all the upset that caused I didn’t notice there was a problem until there was a marked change in other intimacy/communication (no more hugs, no more kissing goodbye/hello, no “I love you,” minimal interaction) in early January.  That coincided with an event at his workplace he was very upset about, but when it didn’t go away I started to worry and kept asking what was wrong.

 

The answer I got was that he no longer wanted to be married.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

(no more hugs, no more kissing goodbye/hello, no “I love you,” minimal interaction

When I asked my (effectively asexual) wife why she was like that, she was very sure she wanted to be married. She just didn't see the need to do anything like demonstrating affection. We've had countless Talks etc. but she's made no comment that I've stopped initiating any kind of touch at all, ever.

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

When I asked my (effectively asexual) wife why she was like that, she was very sure she wanted to be married. She just didn't see the need to do anything like demonstrating affection. We've had countless Talks etc. but she's made no comment that I've stopped initiating any kind of touch at all, ever.

I did ask about it within a week or so of it starting.  I actually noticed it right away but was worried about what it meant and had to work myself up to asking.

[ryn2]

I was expecting to hear “I’m ace” (not a problem), “I’m gay,” (potentially a problem), or “I’m having an affair” (potentially a problem)... not “I’m done with this.”

[Telecaster68]

Not being willing to talk isn't reasonable, on either side of the equation.

[ryn2]

He says now that there was no point in talking because the issue isn’t sex, it’s desire... but I would still have rather had that conversation back at the point where he decided to stop initiating sex.  Maybe we could have fixed things.  Worst case I’d have had more years to bolster my finances.

[Telecaster68]

It would've at least uncovered that you were asexual, rather than it was some other issue.

[ryn2]

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

It would've at least uncovered that you were asexual, rather than it was some other issue.

Agreed, as I knew by then.

 

It would also have given us a chance to try compromising when the issue was fresh, rather than after years of having it prove something.

[James121]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

You can’t not even have the conversation and then say you were DARVO’d anyway, though.

That’s not what I said. Someone was claiming there was a huge delay in the issue being raised and I said because the likely result is darvo. Most people on here (sexuals) have written posts that show that when they tried to raise it.....bang - darvo. Read the sexual allies posts. It’s a common theme.

[James121]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

A distressingly bad sex life is something that ought to be discussed though, rather than just jumping straight to divorce. It might well have been fixable, if he was able to be live with sex without desire, and ryn was willing to have sex.

I absolutely agree. Strikes me as somewhat uncomfortable that he didn’t feel comfortable to bring it up. What was the relationship like that caused someone to head to the divorce exit doors as a preference to bringing it up? I’d hate to think that my spouse didn’t feel as if she could bring something up with me.

 

Sometimes things aren’t discussed because one person is a bit of a coward. I get that.

Sometimes it’s because they know what their spouses response will go like. After all, they live with them.

[ryn2]

4 minutes ago, James121 said:

That’s not what I said. Someone was claiming there was a huge delay in the issue being raised and I said because the likely result is darvo. Most people on here (sexuals) have written posts that show that when they tried to raise it.....bang - darvo. Read the sexual allies posts. It’s a common theme.

Sorry, maybe I took your “Most people don’t feel comfortable raising it as it is socially unacceptable to raise a lack of sex. What people tend to do is call you sex obsessed,” statement out of context then.

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, James121 said:

I absolutely agree. Strikes me as somewhat uncomfortable that he didn’t feel comfortable to bring it up. What was the relationship like that caused someone to head to the divorce exit doors as a preference to bringing it up? I’d hate to think that my spouse didn’t feel as if she could bring something up with me.

 

Sometimes things aren’t discussed because one person is a bit of a coward. I get that.

Sometimes it’s because they know what their spouses response will go like. After all, they live with them.

In my particular case sex was something (and he freely admits this) he felt uncomfortable discussing with me (or anyone, he says) all the way back to when  I first met him.  He says he was uncomfortable discussing it before me as well.  He came into the relationship with minimal sexual experience and had been rejected by a past (short-term) partner because of his ED.

 

So, regardless of how “having the conversation in your head” and then not bothering to have it for real is dangerous, I don’t think really any opportunity for him to know what my response would be on that particular subject.

[James121]

Just now, ryn2 said:

In my particular case sex was something (and he freely admits this) he felt uncomfortable discussing with me (or anyone, he says) all the way back to when  I first met him.  He says he was uncomfortable discussing it before me as well.  He came into the relationship with minimal sexual experience and had been rejected by a past (short-term) partner because of his ED.

 

So, regardless of how “having the conversation in your head” and then not bothering to have it for real is dangerous, I don’t think really any opportunity for him to know what my response would be on that particular subject.

Your case is yours. I’m talking in general. It’s nothing personal. I would say that your case is rare though. Fairly unique.

[James121]

8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Sorry, maybe I took your “Most people don’t feel comfortable raising it as it is socially unacceptable to raise a lack of sex. What people tend to do is call you sex obsessed,” statement out of context then.

I have to admit I’m guilty of generalising. You and others may not have done what I have suggested is ‘the norm’. But......it is extremely, extremely common. You’ll have to trust me on that.

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, James121 said:

Your case is yours. I’m talking in general. It’s nothing personal. I would say that your case is rare though. Fairly unique.

My point was just that it’s hard tp generalize accurately because everyone and every situation is a little different.

 

I’m probably not the only one in my situation, just like you’re probably not the only one in yours.

[ryn2]

In lieu of real research we all determine what’s common by what our friends say, what we see in the media we consume, etc.  Different sets of friends, different media consumption, different social customs... all of that adds up to differing views on what’s most common.  Any one of our opinions on what happens most often could be right.  It’s probably most likely none of us are.

[gaogao]

 

15 hours ago, James121 said:

If you darvo’d her I’m surprised it still works.

 

*edit, this was also super sarcastic*

Yes, I DARVO'd her because, as you say: 

 

17 hours ago, James121 said:

All sexual partners HAVE tried to discuss this with their partners and the results are consistently the same......DARVO.

ALL, and ALL the results are consistently the same

 

*sarcasm*

[gaogao]

Expanding on my point above - I just think that yeah, sex is hard to discuss for both sexuals and asexuals, for various reasons - but the rare cases where it works in a well-rounded, healthy way are because BOTH PEOPLE did talk about it, and acknowledged why it was hard to talk about and addressed how to talk about it in the future. And yes, those cases do exist. That's why I say, at least TRY. If not, question why you think it's pointless to try and why you believe it's not something you think will work. I mean, if you talked about it and your partner shut you down, then at least you know you did your best in a sensitive and caring way, and if it didn't work you can console yourself that it wasn't your fault and it was your partner's refusal to communicate that ruined the relationship, instead of JUST asexuality. You have to push past the fact that there is so much stacked against people who don't know who/what they are, and that our society has an aspect of sex-shaming that makes sex hard to talk about, so it really can take a lot of effort to get the conversation started in a clear way that doesn't involve trying to get your partner to read your mind or between the lines.

 

So many people here are so bitter that they make generalizations about how All Asexuals will do this and All Sexuals will do that - on both sides of the sexual/asexual relationship divide. But the bottom line is like, I'm sorry your partner didn't care that you were sad or that they hurt you, but that was your partner, as a person. And you shouldn't discount the efforts that sexual and asexual people have made to stay together, no matter how rare we are. Surely our voices and experiences count for something?

[James121]

13 minutes ago, gaogao said:

 

Yes, I DARVO'd her because, as you say: 

 

ALL, and ALL the results are consistently the same

 

*sarcasm*

I’m not really getting your point. 

Whats your point?

Let me know.

[gaogao]

Just now, James121 said:

I’m not really getting your point. 

Whats your point?

Let me know.

See above.

[gaogao]

Also like, I'm not discounting the fact that many people HAVE been DARVO'd here, but I just want you to acknowledge that the reason people give up so quickly on Asexuals is because there's a lot more work that goes into talking to asexual people about sex than other sexuals. Things that Sexual people might take as "given" or "obvious" really aren't obvious to us at all. So you might think you're being DARVO'd when instead you're just facing a huge wall of ignorance and a really messed up and confused world-view that has never been challenged and is based on a lot of really REALLY weird assumptions because no one has ever told us anything about what sex means to other people and we have no context for understanding it in our own experiences... and society keeps telling us sex is bad so we just think, great, i don't want it, that's a thing solved.

 

If you try and try and your partner doesn't listen, then it's on them - they aren't listening to you about something that means a lot, and that's a breakdown of communication - not a feature of asexuality. IMO, you'll find that if your partner really cares about you they will listen. This is what my girlfriend had to do for me, because I don't know what she was thinking or what she actually wanted until I forced it out of her. She had to dispel a million weird things I thought were true about sex and sexual people, and she had to tell me really clearly that she wanted a good fuck and it had nothing to do with using/being used, power, or any other weird shit I thought existed. She had to spell out for me, really simply, what sex meant to her as a connection, and as an emotional bond. I knew she was sad because of something I really, REALLY didn't understand, so I tried to listened to her, and she tried to listen to me when I asked her "if it isn't this, what is it?"..

 

 If she (and I ) didn't TRY, it wouldn't have worked.

[Telecaster68]

18 minutes ago, gaogao said:

So you might think you're being DARVO'd when instead you're just facing a huge wall of ignorance and a world-view that has never been challenged because no one has ever told us anything about what sex means to other people.

I know you're addressing this towards James, and I've seen plenty of examples of asexuals to whom this stuff isn't obvious, so I know you're right about that. But it does puzzle me, particularly as one of the frequent other comments is that society is saturated with sex, 'oversexualise', 'hypersexual', etc. and some think that sexuals are only reacting to 'societal pressures'. And sex is important, and it's more often than not a big part of TV, video games, social media, magazines; and it's always been a big part of novels, drama and poetry for thousands of years. I completely accept that some asexuals are oblivious to its importance, but I'm honestly puzzled about how this comes about.

 

For instance, I have no interest in football (soccer, for our colonial cousins) and I have no intention of ever going to a match again, I've been to a few football matches (they were okay, but I was more interested in the chants than the match), I've watch a few games on TV with friends because it was a social occasion, I have a vague idea what's going on through catching bulletins on the radio and TV. I don't care about it at all. But a lot of other men I know (not just 'lads' but fairly sober professionals of all ages) are near-obsessed with it. They talk about it a lot with friends and family, they make a point of watching big matches, they spend a lot of money on it, they subscribe to TV channels so they can watch football, they buy football shirts to wear, they play five-a-side, they're elated when their team wins, they're depressed when their team loses (not clinically, but it's definitely more than a passing whim). If someone removed football from their life, I don't doubt it would have a big emotional impact on them.

 

Sex is more integral to our culture than football (even in the UK...). Genuine question - how do some asexuals manage to be oblivious to it being important to everyone else?

[Cobie]

.

[gaogao]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Genuine question - how do some asexuals manage to be oblivious to it being important to everyone else?

That's honestly a really good question, especially since I think it's a big part of what makes the barrier between sexuals and asexuals really difficult to overcome.

 

I don't think I can answer it for everyone, but I can take a stab at trying to explain why I never really understood how important sex was to people myself... Like, I've thought about it a lot ever since it was explained to me, but I think it's to do with how I basically got a lot of mixed messages about sex in general, as well as only ever really encountering sex in fiction and not being able to relate it to anything that I personally desired emotionally or physically. 

 

For example -- On one level I did have an understanding that society talks a lot about sex, and that people think it's really important because it is everywhere, yes, much like football. People talk about it and say it's important to their relationships and relate raunchy stories, and I spent a lot of time reading sexy fanfiction, but I always thought of it as embellishment, something you talked about to be 'cool' or 'fit in' or that made a good story between characters. A lot of the stuff I read was about power-play as well, so that tainted my view a lot about why people had sex and what role it played - but that's because it was all fiction. In that sense, sex was kind of like it was part of a world of make-believe. I could joke about things, but I'd never wanted it for myself and never thought about actually having sex myself - so I didn't realise that people would take me seriously... I'd say things like "lol, i missed a few periods, for a second I thought I was going to be birthing the antichrist!!" as a joke, because I didn't think people were really having sex... but then I'd get reactions like "oh my god, I know, it's always a scare when you miss a period!!!" and it was always super jarring to think, oh, shit, pregnancy scares actually happen??? People really have sex?? is everything I read about in fan fiction real??? Even though, duh, on an intellectual level it must be happening. It just isn't happening to me, surely or anyone I know. Like winning the lottery, I guess.

 

Then there's also another level (especially if you're religious or growing up with conservative adults) which fed me a lot of propaganda about how sex is dirty, and parents and authority figures put a lot of emphasis on not 'giving in' to societal pressure and having sex before marriage, etc. There's the assumption it's BAD and you shouldn't but everyone does want it, and I never thought that I was different... so even with my low desire I was thinking things like "I must be normal, but it's not that hard to avoid so peer pressure must be why everyone else is talking about it... because it's cool in today's hyper-sexual society." while also patting myself on the back (and being patted on the back by conservative elders for being so proper) with how great I am because I think I have such amazing self control when actually I just have no drive in the first place... *facepalm*

 

That sort of anti-sex, damaging, immoral discourse combined with "it's cool! everyone is talking about it!! but you shouldn't!!" really isn't there with hobbies like sports... so you'll never assume that someone who is talking about football is only doing so to fit in or because they're being tempted by it and haven't got self control to resist... which is why you wouldn't question the importance of Football to a person's life, cos if they're putting that much effort into it, they probably really do like it...? 

 

At least, that's how I would explain it for myself, maybe. Does that help/make sense?

 

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sex is more integral to our culture than football (even in the UK...). Genuine question - how do some asexuals manage to be oblivious to it being important to everyone else?

I can’t speak for everyone but, for me personally, I’m used to advertising/media in general depicting a lifestyle that doesn't really reflect my interests.  I don’t particularly enjoy shopping, or football (either sort), or large, loud parties.  I don’t like cheap American lager or smoking, and am not fond of casinos.  Consequently I see ads as 1) not of interest to every individual and 2) reflective of a “perfect,” “keeping up with the Joneses” lifestyle we’re supposed to want but often don’t.

 

If you consume our media you might think everyone loves drinking, smoking, and (heterosexual) sex between older, rich men and pretty young women... and that everyone is obsessed with making money.  I know some of what’s shown is not true so I have no reason not to doubt all of it.

 

That’s just a guess, though.  I have no idea why I came out the way I did.

[Moonchaser]

On 4/17/2018 at 8:05 AM, James121 said:

You will find (I guarantee this) that all sexual partners HAVE tried to discuss this with their partners and the results are consistently the same......DARVO.

 

Deny the issue exists 

Attack the person who suggests it does

Reverse the 

Victim and

Offender

 

Problem solved.

That's a natural response almost everyone has at first to nearly any kind of criticism. I did QA for a while in my work, and that's exactly how most people respond at first to having their work corrected too. It has nothing to do with male/female, sexual/asexual. It just has to do with being human. Some of us get lots of practice at taking criticism and learn how to respond differently most of the time, but even those people are going to be more sensitive about certain issues or at certain times, or if confronted in an insensitive way.

 

It's nothing new, and the goal, if people want to have a relationship, is to see it as normal and get past that initial denial/anger response and to a deeper discussion of each other's needs, and a willingness to do that can save a relationship, while an obstinate refusal to is going to doom it. And if someone can't get past that, then that is what I'm talking about when I say, why be married? A marriage is two people joining in their lives and some of their goals, and finding  a way to make things work out the best they can for both people. 

[Telecaster68]

You're right, it is most people's natural response. Many, many sexual partners (or higher libido partners, come to that) get nothing but DARVO, and worse, outrage when it's pointed out, moving quickly to 'well, you can always leave'.

 

Then, if you say 'okay, I will', you're the one breaking up a family over sex, in your partner's eyes.

[James121]

1 hour ago, Moonchaser said:

It has nothing to do with male/female, sexual/asexual. It just has to do with being human.

I agree. I never made out that this is an asexual thing or a male/female response. Just a response most refusers give when asked about sex or lack there of.

 

[vega57]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Then, if you say 'okay, I will', you're the one breaking up a family over sex, in your partner's eyes.

IF you're at the point of leaving, why would you even care about what your partner thinks?