Dual Asexuality reference & discussion

[Galactic Turtle]

13 minutes ago, skepa said:

Evidence being the AIS-12 score, which is evidence of course.

 

@FictoVore. has said she's not asexual multiple times. That should be enough for you regardless of anything that might suggest otherwise, according to you. Your internal definition of sexuality should now include her.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, skepa said:

That's where you are wrong. again you can't understand the perspectives of others

Skepa,  a lot of the questions in that test were about desire for partnered sexual activity (not sexual attraction). YOU are saying that asexuals can desire sex for pleasure, and be unhappy without it etc, but if that was the case (to the extent that I would say the person isn't asexual IF they asked me) then they'd score very low on the test, and get a result of NOT ASEXUAL. This isn't about perspectives, it's about the questions in the test and the answers you have to give to determine asexuality. By YOUR definition of asexuals being people who can desire sex for pleasure, those very people would score LOW on the test - yet you're saying it's a wonderful test.

 

Even the comment at the very top of the test acknowledges that people like you (who think asexuals can desire sex for pleasure) may find the test inadequate.

 

46 minutes ago, skepa said:

your whole 30% statistic is BS by this metric.

No, because any self-identifying asexuals claiming they love sex and would be unhappy without sex will score LOWER on the test, meaning they'd all be being labelled as SEXUAL by the very test you claim is wonderful.

 

If asexuals can love sex for pleasure, then a lot of SEXUAL people (who would still score as sexual in that test) could also be asexual, raising the number of asexuals to a huge percentage of the population. And my original 30% comment was based on you saying ''sexual people get horny as a result of the appearance of others and want sex as a result of that sexual reaction to appearance'' (you said something like that anyway). If that was the ONE defining factor that makes someone sexual, then yes a huge percentage of the population would be asexual because a lot of people do NOT experience a sexual reaction to physical appearance that makes them instantly want sex.

 

46 minutes ago, skepa said:

, by this test you would be considered asexual, and you are in the major minority, for people categorizing as sexual,

I most definitely AM in a minority among sexual people (I have never denied this) but that doesn't actually make me asexual because I can desire some forms of sexual intimacy under the right circumstances, very rarely, with the right person - but I have to love and trust them, and need to have become mentally and physically aroused through words and conversation and shared thoughts before I can be ready physically for that kind of sexual intimacy. I have only wanted this with fictional characters to some extent, and with my current partner, in my whole 30 years. I'd be super content to remain physically celibate forever though, which I have been for 7 years now, and have never had a physically pleasurable sexual encounter before the 7 years of physical celibacy began. That's why I scored quite high. I also never knew I could enjoy certain forms of sexual activity enough to actively want them with a 'real life' person until I met my current partner, hence the slow realization of my sexuality.

 

46 minutes ago, skepa said:

If anything this test is the best scientific statistical evidence we have for if someone should label as asexual or not,

I agree with you to some extent on this point, because anyone who desires sex enough that they would be unhappy without it (to the extent I'd say the weren't asexual IF they asked me) will score very low, or only just reach the 40 mark if they only desire sex very rarely or only under super specific circumstances or whatever. I am most definitely a minority among sexuals, hence my high score - but the sex-loving asexuals you claim to support will score much lower on the test than me, probably well below the 40 mark. That's the POINT I'm trying to make. By the standards of this test, the people who do desire sex enough that they feel it's an important part of their life and would be unhappy without it will score as SEXUAL, not ASEXUAL.

 

29 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

Oh, the irony...

This comment pretty much sums up this whole thread now that this self-test (which supports everything we have been saying about asexuals not desiring partnered sexual activity for pleasure) has been introduced. *sigh*

 

[Alejandrogynous]

47 minutes ago, skepa said:

If someone says they are asexual I take it at face value that they are. I do not question it further, this is different than a definitional discussion. I don't hold this mentality of if someone says they are asexual, then I need more clarification before I really believe them

Not to speak for @FictoVore. but I think you're misunderstanding her/our stance on this. If someone tells me they're asexual, I don't demand proof before I believe them, but if someone then gives me evidence to the contrary (which I guess you care about but only when it suits you), I will follow up with questions to see what they're basing this identity off of. And if they're basing it off an understanding that is not entirely accurate, which happens often, I will offer information to help educate - which they can take or leave. I'd never say they can't ID as asexual, just that whatever they just described isn't The Thing that makes someone asexual because some sexual people experience that too.

[skepa]

50 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

has said she's not asexual multiple times. That should be enough for you regardless of anything that might suggest otherwise, according to you. Your internal definition of sexuality should now include her.

Correct, it does I don't deny that, and is consistent with what I've been saying. 

[skepa]

1 hour ago, Alejandrogynous said:

evidence to the contrary

People can label themselves how they would like, if you say you're sexual or asexual then I believe that person without needing extra information, even if evidence is provided to the contrary. FictoVore says she is sexual so she is sexual regardless if for all intents and purposes she should fit under the asexual label, and I believe her on that regard, that's how my internal definitions of sexual and Asexuality work, and I think it's very helpful and healthy too think this way.

[skepa]

48 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Skepa,  a lot of the questions in that test were about desire for partnered sexual activity

You don't listen to a word I'm saying. Just look at the dual Asexuality model that I proposed. It includes people that lack desire for sex with a partner.

 

Here is the updated model

If you score a 40+ on the AIS-12 you fit under one of three different asexual orientation catagories:

 

1. Someone who is not interested in others

2. Someone who lacks desire for partnered sex

3. Someone who is both

[Galactic Turtle]

4 minutes ago, skepa said:

Correct, it does I don't deny that, and is consistent with what I've been saying. 

In general what everyone is saying that if an ace person says they like having, seek out, and enjoy sex quite regularly there might be things (like the test you sent) that suggest otherwise. And, particularly when prompted (as dozens of threads here do per day), might point that out just like you did not too long ago. Again, not telling people they can't ID that way but simply stating an observation. 

 

But... back to the whole not believing in definitions thing which you ignored last time, why are you coming up with a theory that wants to define sexual attraction/asexuality if you don't believe in setting parameters for what sexual attraction/asexuality is? If your whole point is "sexual attraction/asexuality/sexuality is whatever anyone wants it to be," there's really no point in coming up with definitions or models.

 

3 minutes ago, skepa said:

Here is the updated model

If you score a 40+ on the AIS-12 you fit under one of three different asexual orientation catagories:

 

1. Someone who is not interested in others

2. Someone who lacks desire for partnered sex

3. Someone who is both

Fit under one of three different asexual orientation categories.... unless you don't ID as asexual regardless of what this quiz says.

 

Which, according to this rule of yours, again makes me wonder why you're trying to make a model in the first place when to you everything is a free for all.

[skepa]

14 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

In general what everyone is saying that if an ace person says they like having, seek out, and enjoy sex quite regularly there might be things (like the test you sent) that suggest otherwise.

Yeah and what I'm saying is I don't judge others regardless, it's not who I am or want to be. If you say you are one thing as related to your gender or sex I believe you.

 

14 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

If your whole point is "sexual attraction/asexuality/sexuality is whatever anyone wants it to be," there's really no point in coming up with definitions or models.

For me true and real asexuals is the group of people that label themselves as asexual. Likewise the same goes for gay, straight or trans. Definitions, which this post is about, is about helping others figure out which labels work best for them, it's a separate thing in my mind from who is a true asexual or not.

[Galactic Turtle]

Just now, skepa said:

For me true and real asexuals is the group of people that label themselves as asexual. Likewise the same goes for gay, straight or trans. Definitions, which this post is about, is about helping others figure out which labels work best for them, it's a separate thing in my mind from who is a true asexual or not. 

So your own definition of asexuality has nothing to do with actual asexuality. 

[skepa]

2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

So your own definition of asexuality has nothing to do with actual asexuality. 

I would suggest looking up dual definitional model, you might understand where I'm coming from better. http://wiki.asexuality.org/Dual_Definitional_model

[Puck]

10 minutes ago, skepa said:

I would suggest looking up dual definitional model, you might understand where I'm coming from better. http://wiki.asexuality.org/Dual_Definitional_model

But that doesn't support what you've been saying either. That suggests that it is both an Orientation and an Identity, not that the definition of the orientation needs to change. Just that one might be asexual (the orientation) without identifying as it, or one might identify as being asexual with out having the asexual orientation, or one might identify as being asexual and also have their orientation be asexual....

 

It actually supports more the ideas that others in this thread have said, were the orientation has one definition but others may identify as asexual regardless of the orientation's definition.

[skepa]

9 minutes ago, Puck said:

But that doesn't support what you've been saying either.

yes it does, I've been saying over and over again, that I choose to view asexual, sexual, gay, trans, ect. as identities, that I accept from people at face value. Because the minute you use the orientation definitions outside of your own perspective, outside of what you used to label yourself in the first place you run into paradoxes, you have two people who both label themselves the same, however they are both extremely different internally. It's pointless to debate who is the "true" label, and who isn't, that's just toxic and brings communities down. It's much healthier to just say they are both that same label, and be done with it. 

 

9 minutes ago, Puck said:

It actually supports more the ideas that others in this thread have said, were the orientation has one definition but others may identify as asexual regardless of the orientation's definition.

changing the definition however changes orientation. This is problematic, especially if it doesn't reflect the underlying population. Thus we should try to change the definition of the orientation to what most closely reflects the AIS-12 test, which in this hypothesis or model states that it's one of three different definitions.

[Galactic Turtle]

To edit this entry to mean what you've been saying here, @skepa, it would have to go from:

 

"The first is a sexual orientation. An asexual is a person who experiences little or no sexual attraction. The second definition is an identity based on that sexual orientation: An asexual is someone who experiences little or no sexual attraction and calls themself asexual."

 

to...

 

"The first is a sexual orientation. An asexual is a person who experiences little or no sexual attraction. The second definition is an identity based on that sexual orientation: An asexual is someone who calls themself asexual."

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, skepa said:

You don't listen to a word I'm saying. Just look at the dual Asexuality model that I proposed. It includes people that lack desire for sex with a partner.

 

Here is the updated model

If you score a 40+ on the AIS-12 you fit under one of three different asexual orientation catagories:

 

1. Someone who is not interested in others

2. Someone who lacks desire for partnered sex

3. Someone who is both

No, please, I'll try to explain this one more time.

 

Someone who desires sexual activity to the extent I would say (IF they asked me) that they aren't asexual would NOT fall above 40 in that test - I'm not sure how to make you see this any more clearly. You're saying someone can be asexual if they're not (sexually) interested in others, but they can still be asexual if they lack that interest yet desire sexual activity for pleasure. That's what YOU are saying. I am listening to YOU. HOWEVER, the TEST would score someone who desires sexual activity to the extent of finding it very important in their life as NOT asexual. They'd be in the 'grey' area for sure if they're somewhere between like 35-45 (though it's hotly debated here whether grey is sexual or asexual) but the point I am trying to make is that, by that test, ONLY the asexuals who place no importance at all in sex, don't need it to be happy, and actively try to avoid it, would get a high asexual score. So, that's in contradiction with your duel asexual model.

 

I am wondering if maybe you personally are defining the desire for partnered sex very very differently than we are, because if that desire is so incredibly rare and has so little importance that one would score over 40 on that test, I also would say that person is asexual or at the very least, in the grey area. When I say 'asexuals do not desire partnered sex for pleasure' I mean they don't desire it or enjoy it enough that they feel it's important in their life, they would be perfectly happy to be without sex in their life, they don't actively try to seek or initiate sex for pleasure, and they are very, very happy in sexless relationships etc etc - Someone who feels that way about sex WILL fall around 40 or over on that test. However, if sex is very important to them and something that makes them very happy, and something they feel they need in their life, the test will score them as sexual. Meaning either the test itself is not in alignment with your duel asexuality model at all, or you are defining 'desire for partnered sex' very, very differently than we are.

 

3 minutes ago, Puck said:

It actually supports more the ideas that others in this thread have said, were the orientation has one definition but others may identify as asexual regardless of the orientation's definition.

Yeah I've tried to say this so many times, I just can't work out how else to word it so it will make sense. We have all said people can IDENTIFY however they wish, based on how they personally want to define asexuality; we aren't here to force people not to identify as asexual if that's what they want. We are talking about the definition of the orientation of asexuality, which yes, excludes some people in the same way the orientation of homosexuality excludes heterosexual people. Someone can identify as homosexual even if they fit absolutely none of the defining factors of homosexuality, because people are free to identify however the heck they wish. Discussing the definition of an orientation though (which is exactly what @skepa is doing with his duel asexuality model) doesn't automatically mean you're trying to exclude or forcefully label those who do not fit into that definition. I just cannot work out how to make it clear to Skepa that his duel asexuality model is no different than us having our own personal 'model' of how asexuality is defined, because any definition will exclude some people by default. People can still identify however they wish, regardless of how we (or anyone else) is trying to define asexuality.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, skepa said:

Thus we should try to change the definition of the orientation to what most closely reflects the AIS-12 test, which in this hypothesis or model states that it's one of three different definitions.

The AIS-12 test reflects most strongly everything we have been saying about asexuals not desiring partnered sexual activity for pleasure (because anyone who desires it enough to feel unhappy without it will almost certainly fall lower than 40 on the test). So either you are accepting that the test does not accurately reflect your duel asexuality model, OR, you are defining 'desires partnered sex' in a COMPLETELY different way than we are. (This is explained in a lot more detail in my above comment though)

[skepa]

4 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

"The first is a sexual orientation. An asexual is a person who experiences little or no sexual attraction. The second definition is an identity based on that sexual orientation: An asexual is someone who calls themself asexual."

To quote from the Dual definitional model

 

Quote

This model uses the phrase “a person who experiences little or no sexual attraction” because the boundary between sexual and asexual is blurry and there is no clear line to draw between them. The question of where to draw the line is something each person decides for themself, so self-identification answers the question of who is and who isn’t asexual.

 

[skepa]

Just now, FictoVore. said:

The AIS-12 test reflects most strongly everything we have been saying about asexuals not desiring partnered sexual activity for pleasure

Incorrect, the AIS-12 test reflects most strongly what you and others have been saying about how you define sexual attraction, which I disagree with. The best definition of sexual attraction, I will still go with is the two question model I defined above, but even still people will disagree with that, so it's better to in general drop trying to define what sexual attraction is and let people answer the 12 question test with their own internal representations of sexual attraction. 

[Galactic Turtle]

4 minutes ago, skepa said:

To quote from the Dual definitional model

Again, that really just cancels out everything that comes before it. Experiencing little to no sexual attraction has nothing to do with it, despite what was previously said. So really this article should just say "an asexual person is someone who calls themselves asexual."

 

Unless, as I said before, your own definition of asexuality has nothing to do with asexuality. 

[skepa]

16 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

ONLY the asexuals who place no importance at all in sex, don't need it to be happy, and actively try to avoid it, would get a high asexual score.

That's not true, you can still get an above 40  score by saying that you never experience sexual attraction, and put 5's for all the sexual attraction questions, but 3's or 2's for most of the questions involving sex. Thus the category of the dual asexuality model: someone not interested in others still applies without having to reference sexual desire.

[skepa]

7 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Unless, as I said before, your own definition of asexuality has nothing to do with asexuality. 

again, if someone says they are asexual then they are in my mind, regardless of what else they say or do. It's an identity. orientation definitions ("someone who lacks sexual attraction") is only really useful for individuals themselves to find labels for themselves, when someone says they are asexual, the orientation definition never comes to my mind to try and understand their internal representations because the plethora of subjective human experiences can not be captured by words.

[Galactic Turtle]

1 minute ago, skepa said:

again, if someone says they are asexual then they are in my mind, regardless of what else they say or do. It's an identity. orientation definitions ("someone who lacks sexual attraction") is only really useful for individuals themselves to find labels for themselves, when someone says they are asexual, the orientation definition never comes to my mind to try and understand their internal representations because the plethora of subjective human experiences can not be captured by words.

So... again...

 

18 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

"The first is a sexual orientation. An asexual is a person who experiences little or no sexual attraction. The second definition is an identity based on that sexual orientation: An asexual is someone who calls themself asexual."

 

[skepa]

2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

So... again...

I mean sure, I was just posting the Dual definitional model to get my point across, mainly referencing the last line of that model, which is the self identification, which again ties into the identity aspect of the model.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, skepa said:

so self-identification answers the question of who is and who isn’t asexual. .. 

So why bother having the dual asexuality model at all, if all that matters is whether or not someone calls themselves ace?

 

2 minutes ago, skepa said:

Incorrect, the AIS-12 test reflects most strongly what you and others have been saying about how you define sexual attraction.. so it's better to in general drop trying to define what sexual attraction is and let people answer the 12 question test with their own internal representations of sexual attraction.

Did you READ the questions outlined in the test, or did you link the wrong test?

 

Quote

 I experience sexual attraction toward other people
I find myself experiencing sexual attraction toward another person

Those are the ONLY questions specifically about sexual attraction - it doesn't really even matter how you answer those two, because the rest are mostly about your desire for sexual activity, and the majority of your score will be based around whether you answered them positively or negatively.

 

Quote

 

I lack interest in sexual activity

 

The thought of sexual activity repulses me

 

 I would be content if I never had sex again

 

I would be relieved if I was told that I never had to engage in any sort of sexual activity again

 

 I go to great lengths to avoid situations where sex might be expected of me

 

My ideal relationship would not involve sexual activity

 

 Sex has no place in my life

 

These questions make up the bulk of the rest of the score. depending on whether you answer favorably or negatively, the test judges whether you are sexual or asexual based predominantly on THESE questions. Yes you can answer 3 for every single one and get 'highly asexual' as a result, but 3 is a non-answer. It's 'both yes and no' or 'yes or no' or 'neither yes nor no' so doesn't count if you're using it to answer every single question about sexual activity. Anyway, anyone who favours sexual activity to the extent that they answer in favour (either 1 or 2 score) of sexual activity for all these questions will almost certainly score somewhere below 40 - meaning they desire sexual activity enough that the test has deemed them 'not asexual'.

 

So it has nothing to do with how we're defining sexual attraction, it's the fact that most of the questions in the test are situated around whether or not you desire partnered sexual activity and how important sexual activity is to you - which is the main premise of our argument. It's about how important sex is to you, and really has very little to do with sexual attraction.

 

11 minutes ago, skepa said:

you can still get an above 40  score by saying that you never experience sexual attraction, and put 5's for all the sexual attraction questions, but 3's or 2's for most of the questions involving sex.

Only two of the questions are about sexual attraction. And 3 is a cop-out answer (if you're using it for every question about sexual activity).

 

I tried answering 5 to every question not about sexual activity, and 2 to every question specifically about sexual activity, and still only got 39. Yes, it would be higher if I answered 3 to all the sexual activity questions, but that would render the test null and void because 'neither true nor false' is equivalent to a free skip where you still get numbers to add towards your total score which is cheating the test, lol. Even having 3 as an option renders the test results pretty much meaningless.

 

5 minutes ago, skepa said:

I was just posting the Dual definitional model to get my point across,

But it's a fact that by your dual definition model, some people would not be asexual. Yet you don't care about that, because all you care about is that they say they're asexual. So your Dual identity model (and the AIS-12 test) is actually completely irrelevant

[skepa]

32 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

When I say 'asexuals do not desire partnered sex for pleasure' I mean they don't desire it or enjoy it enough that they feel it's important in their life, they would be perfectly happy to be without sex in their life, they don't actively try to seek or initiate sex for pleasure, and they are very, very happy in sexless relationships etc etc

Well I think we are coming more to the similar terms then actually. I don't think the definition 'asexuals do not desire partnered sex for pleasure' captures the extra bits of information you listed, If someone, for instance perhaps enjoys sex with a partner but doesn't initiate, or doesn't care very much, they probably would also score above a 40 as well. 

 

perhaps the catagory of the dual asexuality model of, one who is not interested in others, should also be paired with a below average (but still positive) sexual desire. 

[Galactic Turtle]

17 minutes ago, skepa said:

I mean sure, I was just posting the Dual definitional model to get my point across, mainly referencing the last line of that model, which is the self identification, which again ties into the identity aspect of the model.

So, again, your definition of asexuality (orientation) has nothing to do with asexuality (identity). 

 

Here's the thing. Let's say you put out your definition of asexuality (orientation) out into the world which, as we can see, is "a person who experiences little to no sexual attraction." Tons of people flock to it and based on that definition come to identify as asexual.

 

Once they come to identify as asexual they go to join an asexual community with the idea that they're going to find those who also experience little to no sexual attraction and thus came to also identify as asexual just like them.

 

However, instead of finding this, they find lots of people who do experience sexual attraction, people who do love having sex, and people who do really value sex as a physical and emotional enjoyment or even necessity in their lives either casually, with their partners, or both! All of a sudden they're surrounded by people who call themselves asexual (identity) yet aren't really asexual (orientation) at all. And once they see this, a lot might say "well, what's the point of defining asexuality as an orientation?" 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, skepa said:

40 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

When I say 'asexuals do not desire partnered sex for pleasure' I mean they don't desire it or enjoy it enough that they feel it's important in their life, they would be perfectly happy to be without sex in their life, they don't actively try to seek or initiate sex for pleasure, and they are very, very happy in sexless relationships etc etc

Well I think we are coming more to the similar terms then actually

Yes someone who doesn't care very much at all about sex, doesn't initiate, wouldn't mind if they never have sex again,and would be totally happy in a completely sexless relationship would score above 40 (like I did) ..And then it's up to them whether they want to ID as sexual, asexual, or somewhere in the grey area (but it's up to them regardless, so that point is irrelevant).

 

But yeah, people who fall into 'desires partnered sex' the way we are defining it (to the extent they'd answer 1 or 2 to all the questions about sexual activity) would fall below 40, so by both our estimations and the tests estimations, they would not be asexual. That's what I've been getting at when I've been trying to say that the test actually backs up what we have been saying here. 

[skepa]

2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

And 3 is a cop-out answer (if you're using it for every question about sexual activity).

well yeah, I'm talking about a high score for every question not directly about sex.

 

4 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

but that would render the test null and void because 'neither true nor false' is equivalent to a free skip where you still get numbers to add towards your total score which is cheating the test, lol. Even having 3 as an option renders the test results pretty much meaningless.

There is a reason it's on the test, Somewhat True, and Neither True nor False, are important distinctions.

 

5 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

yet you don't care about that, because all you care about is that they say they're asexual.

 definitions are only important for people to figure out how to label themselves, but they are important for that. When someone says they are asexual, I do not take into account the definitions of asexuality and you shouldn't either, regardless of what else they say or do. There is a difference, and an important distinction.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

"well, what's the point of defining asexuality as an orientation?" 

Yeah that's the conclusion many people end up at when they hear that by the two main definitions of asexuality, someone can love having sex but not find people attractive or on the flip-side can actually find people attractive to look at but have no desire to connect sexually with others for pleasure. And the third definition obviously is they can be one or the other of these things, or both of them, and still be asexual. Suddenly, you have an orientation that has literally no meaning at all

[skepa]

6 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Let's say you put out your definition of asexuality (orientation) out into the world which, as we can see, is "a person who experiences little to no sexual attraction."

That's not my definition of asexuality, it would either be the two question model I proposed before, or more importantly now, a 40 or above score on the AIS test, which would change the outcome of the rest of your reply, plus, I'm all for distinctions within the asexual group, which I think there are a bunch of. I.e. someone that scores a 47 is most likely different than someone that scores a 60. What are those differences? and how can we go about figuring out what people experience, that's what I'm interested in  

[skepa]

10 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

But yeah, people who fall into 'desires partnered sex' the way we are defining it (to the extent they'd answer 1 or 2 to all the questions about sexual activity) would fall below 40, so by both our estimations and the tests estimations, they would not be asexual. That's what I've been getting at when I've been trying to say that the test actually backs up what we have been saying here. 

yeah I don't think we are in disagreement here (thank goodness). I suppose that means that I'm just in disagreement with the term 'desires partnered sex' because in my mind that means either a 1, 2, or even 3 in some cases on the test. Thus is not a great definition. Something like 'actively desires partnered sex' would be more fitting.