FaerieFate Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 minute ago, paperbackreader said: Again, if the people on their friend's lists were all 'everything is public anyway' then it's not illegal... I'm actually kinda glad that MZ and SS just said yep, we messed up and they took a relatively short amount of time to do so - bet it was a busy day - technical is this true - lawyers is there liability here - PR what is the best approach to contain this ? :-D Thanks also to @FaerieFate for explaining it much better than me in the time that I've taken to respond (went to get on with life, came back and responded without refreshing)! I'm not really sure with the legality if the person's information is all set on public. However, all of my FB info is set on "Friends only". So only my friends can view almost anything on my profile. So if one of my friends had given Cambridge Analytica a full right to view everything on their profile, and Cambridge used THAT to view all of the information on MY profile, that's a breach in privacy and illegal. Why? I didn't put my information on the public for just anyone to view. I set my privacy so the information is highly restricted. Then Cambridge used my friends to get personal information on ME for the databases without MY permission. And you'd be surprised at what data mining can find out with a small amount of information. It's called an "information bubble" in which websites like Bing and Google use the information they have on you to filter your results to the search results they think you would like best (ie whatever they think you'll agree with the most). They take seemingly unrelated plot points to determine things like your political standing, your interests, and perhaps even where you live. You get the point. On websites like Facebook you get a limited amount of privacy. They use their data mining tools to find out that I like tech stuff so that they can target more tech based ads my way, but all I gave them permission to do that when I signed up. However, I didn't not give Cambridge Analytica a right to that information, and I did not give anyone the right to give Cambridge Analytica that information. So it's a breach in privacy and illegal if they got that information through one of my friends that gave Cambridge Analytica the right to their personal information. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamer23 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 19 hours ago, ripley said: They didn’t gather it legally. And many people weren’t consenting, if I’ve understood the practice properly. It was a sort of snowball effect — one person might consent, but the data gathered came not just from them but everyone on their friends lists. So say, if you had 300 friends on Facebook, that’s 300 profiles of more data for the pool, but that’s also a potential 300 more people unknowingly having their behaviour online used for data gathering. It’s how they managed to gather such a huge pool. By behaviour, that means reading your posts, the posts you like, the information you put in your profile (like favourite movies, tv shows, hobbies, interests etc.), the pages you follow, the posts you share, etc. I hope I'm not way too late elaborating; did respond to this after seeing the post on page 1 before noticing page 2 xD That's not what my understanding is, or what's technically possible with the Facebook API (now or then; which is what CA used) You are correct that they received the list of your friends, as well as the information they PUBLICLY shared and information you shared with them. That's combined with the more detailed information about you to create a better profile of your friends. All of this is in compliance with Facebook's ToS, see section 3 of the Data Policy. Link to post Share on other sites
FaerieFate Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Dreamer23 said: I hope I'm not way too late elaborating; did respond to this after seeing the post on page 1 before noticing page 2 xD That's not what my understanding is, or what's technically possible with the Facebook API (now or then; which is what CA used) You are correct that they received the list of your friends, as well as the information they PUBLICLY shared and information you shared with them. That's combined with the more detailed information about you to create a better profile of your friends. All of this is in compliance with Facebook's ToS, see section 3 of the Data Policy. Remember that Cambridge Analytica is a company based in UK and therefore they are constrained by UK laws. FB is a company based on US and therefore is constrained by US laws. You cannot equate what Cambridge did to FB's ToS because both work under a different set of laws. Also, when FB first found out about this, they asked Cambridge to delete the ill gotten data. They were not okay with how this data was gathered. Cambridge said they deleted it, and now we're finding out about the scandal because Cambridge may not have actually deleted the data. Quote Facebook’s policies give Facebook the right to deletedata gathered by any app deemed to be “negatively impacting the Platform.” https://theintercept.com/2017/03/30/facebook-failed-to-protect-30-million-users-from-having-their-data-harvested-by-trump-campaign-affiliate/ Quote with link for you. As per FB's policy, they have a right to have data deleted that they believe to be negatively effecting the users of their website. In this case they attempted to use this right (As fleshed out by their policy), and they were led to believe that the data was deleted. And here's the link to Facebook's data policy. https://developers.facebook.com/policy/#data These specific rules Cambridge broke. Quote Only use friend data (including friends list) in the person’s experience in your app. Don't sell, license, or purchase any data obtained from us or our services Don't transfer any data that you receive from us (including anonymous, aggregate, or derived data) to any ad network, data broker or other advertising or monetization-related service. First of all, the user only gave rights to the data being used within the app/quiz that they were using. Cambridge only had right to use the friend's data to enhance the user's experience in the app. They then did not have right to license or sell the data gathered to other companies or political parties, which they were doing. And we're talking about "data" we're talking about ALL forms of the data, both raw and derived. And then Cambridge SOLD it to businesses and politicians so they can have targeted advertisements to these users. So not only was it super wrong for them to access the friend's data in the first place (because friend's data are only supposed to be used for in-app experience), but it's EXTREMELY wrong because they then profited off of that data by selling it to other companies and politicians for targeted advertisements and sending it to other companies and politicians in general. When you use Facebook you DO agree that Facebook can mine your data and use it to target ads based on your likes. When you click on a third-party link on FB you do agree to certain amounts of your data being accessed by that company. However, FB has rules in place to protect their users to a certain extent because they don't want to be involved in a huge scandal like this. FB had the right to ask for that data to be deleted, as per their policy, and Cambridge broke that rule when they kept the data. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamer23 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I'm not sure I get your point, as that is literally what I said in my first post: "I get that they kept the data after being told they had to delete it due to a breach of contract, but that is a) not Facebook's fault b) not really interesting news" My problem with this story is that it is with Facebook (#deletefacebook), which did nothing wrong here. Assuming other apps aren't doing the same thing on a daily basis (just not selling it for political but rather marketing gain) also seems very unrealistic to me, given how the apis and regular app development and monetization work. Link to post Share on other sites
FaerieFate Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 45 minutes ago, Dreamer23 said: I'm not sure I get your point, as that is literally what I said in my first post: "I get that they kept the data after being told they had to delete it due to a breach of contract, but that is a) not Facebook's fault b) not really interesting news" My problem with this story is that it is with Facebook (#deletefacebook), which did nothing wrong here. Assuming other apps aren't doing the same thing on a daily basis (just not selling it for political but rather marketing gain) also seems very unrealistic to me, given how the apis and regular app development and monetization work. Oh, I thought your argument was that Cambridge wasn't breaking any laws. Yeah, FB did nothing wrong. Everything they did was perfectly legal as per US standards. The only law they may have broken is not telling the authorities that Cambridge had gotten that data wrongfully or was wrongfully using that data. But because FB is a US company and Cambridge Analytica is a UK company one can argue the point of, "Is it their job to tell the UK authorities? Are they even supposed to be aware of UK laws? Because once FB was aware that the information wasn't deleted they wanted to investigate and delete it themselves, which kinda proves they're oblivious to the going ons of the UK (they were unaware that UK was investigating and therefore should not intervene). So it could be argued that they weren't aware if it broke UK law, and they aren't realy required to know that. Link to post Share on other sites
Pramana Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Interesting discussion of the legal issues. I'm still inclined to think that it's probably a good practice to treat anything that you post on social media as though it is being put into the public domain. Link to post Share on other sites
daveb Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I don't know about the legal issues and I don't know much about the whole case, but I read that FB knew about this long before telling their users about it. Maybe that is legal, I don't know, but I feel like it's at least a breach of trust with their users. And their responses since the issue has been made public through other sources has been a bit lackluster, in my opinion. There is law, and there are ethics, and there are things like customer relations. Maybe the worst FB has done are customer relations/PR missteps? This sort of thing should make customers think twice about who they deal with and how they act, and make companies think twice about how they deal with customers. Seems to happen all too often that companies try to keep things quiet and only grudgingly come out once an issue becomes public through other means. Seems to me that can be more damaging than owning up to mistakes right away and doing what they can to set things right (or better yet, doing things right from the start). Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Pramana said: Interesting discussion of the legal issues. I'm still inclined to think that it's probably a good practice to treat anything that you post on social media as though it is being put into the public domain. Oh definitely. Is it necessarily the case that FB not being US company, UK law doesn't apply? What matters generally is where the offence happened, not the nationality of the suspect... The issue would be proving where the offence occurred and then enforcing any penalties and court orders. Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Jurisdiction of legislation is a looooooooooooong topic, and I don't feel that the protocol of the legality of enforcing jurisdiction in our globalised world has caught up completely. In essence, on whether Facebook has acted illegally and the jurisdiction of that legislation: previously - in the time frame of the Cambridge analytica issues, I think most likely no. This is because fb is a US organisation and the legislation that currently protects us in the UK in terms of data has slightly more limited scope in that it is a requirement that organisations based in the UK comply (data protection act) and the law as I understand it did not extend to fb and it was up to us to assess on caveat emptor whether we would or would not engage with Facebook as a non EU /UK organisation. Cambridge analytica is the one that will face the fines and prosecution. However, under the GDPR, even if you are based abroad, if you process or deal with EU or UK citizens data, you have to process data proportionately and data subjects have additional rights, then overwhelmingly, Yes, they would more likely than not have breached the law if the GDPR was in force at the time. However, the GDPR only comes in to effect on May 25 this year and legislation is not retrospective so... They just need to make sure they are compliant by May 25 or potentially face a revenue percentage fine! Regarding @daveb comments, I understand how you feel about breach of trust, but I would imagine that Facebook would be dealing with tons of these contractual breaches on a day to day basis ranging from small one man bands taking data from a couple of dozen people to people like Cambridge analytica. Again, their very purpose is to broker your information, and in signing up and using their services you are giving them and their ad customers permission to do so. They will point to their TOS and say look we told you we would do so, you didn't read it it's your own fault. To the best of my knowledge, US law around data rights is still fragmented as hell, mostly self governed and regulated and on best practice principles (I've heard stories about start up tech companies set up to aggregate anonymised medical user info and data in the mid 2000s, that sort of thing is much more heavily regulated here... ). I think it is one of the key reasons that tech develops more quickly in the US because you drown in red tape here before you make any money!!! us law makers do seem to be putting together a cohesive framework tho, so who knows, in a few more years time they may be equally culpable about transgressions of US citizens data rather than just EU /UK! @PramanacertainlyThe common sense approach. Unfortunately too many people are not well informed nor aware of the risks of over disclosure... Especially with networks like Facebook where a lot of personal information is made encouraged. Ps seems to be a bug in the system, quoting people's names seem to make typing difficult on phones.... Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 The search warrant to "raid" Cambridge Analytica has been granted, after two days, so if they'd half a braincell between them every computer hard drive, flash drive etc is already in an incinerator Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Skycaptain said: The search warrant to "raid" Cambridge Analytica has been granted, after two days, so if they'd half a braincell between them every computer hard drive, flash drive etc is already in an incinerator Not sure if doing that means they'd halve a braincell (implying generate more braincells? Or kill them? ) or own half a braincell (implying they're half witted?) whichever you mean it made me giggle haha. At the moment they are likely to be fined if they breached data protection legislation. Perverting the course of justice carries criminal offence terms that would affect the employees AND the company, and the loss of data would probably kill the organisation anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 You'd have to prosecute individuals rather than the company for perverting the course of justice wouldn't you? And CA is probably dead in the water anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 S'OOO, Facebook get a little dusting of soot, CA close, all politicians get away courtesy of their Teflon coating Sierra squared, Delta squared Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said: You'd have to prosecute individuals rather than the company for perverting the course of justice wouldn't you? And CA is probably dead in the water anyhow. I don't know UK law, but in the US, corporations generally protect their corporate officers by making it extremely difficult to "pierce the corporate veil". Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 They can prosecute individuals but they have to prove a chain of responsibility, which is generally extremely tricky so it's easier to go for the junior staff who were directly involved. Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: They can prosecute individuals but they have to prove a chain of responsibility, which is generally extremely tricky so it's easier to go for the junior staff who were directly involved. But then the junior staff didn't have culpability, since they were under instructions from corporate officers. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 The corporate officers tend to claim the staff had gone rogue... Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Nuremberg in the corporate world "I was only following orders or else I would get fired" is no defence Link to post Share on other sites
ben8884 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Facebook is a terrible entity I hope it ends Link to post Share on other sites
StupidDream Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 41 minutes ago, ben8884 said: Facebook is a terrible entity I hope it ends Totally agree. I'm shocked people even use it - I mean they tell you right there in the terms of service what they'll do with your data! There's a reason its free But for me the worst thing about Facebook is how its become a monopoly. Remember back 15 years ago, everyone had their own sites, there was no censorship, no limit on who could see your stuff and the internet had real personality... With google YouTube and Facebook its just become a homogeneous corporate web, and no one owns any of their content anymore. I'd love to see people going back to having their own blogs, their own websites, etc. Yeh its a bit more effort but at least it will be yours. Just sayin' Eta - Ive seen one active forum community with big(ish) membership base pack up and move their stuff to Facebook a few years ago and it completely killed the community. The forum still exists but was cut right back with every encouragement to go use the Facebook page. Ive checked in on its occasionally - the community has totally disappeared. I hope Aven never goes that way... Link to post Share on other sites
ben8884 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 @StupidDream I have a blog. I got it when I deactivated my Facebook account. I was also a mod of a great forum thatis pretty much gonevdue to Facebook. I dream of a world without Facebook. Link to post Share on other sites
Ousel Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I'm hoping everyone hops over to Dream Width in the wake of Livejournal's demise, but it seems no one has the attention span for that anymore. If we combine DW with Tumblr and Instagram....it would be better than FB right? Link to post Share on other sites
ben8884 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Anything is better than Facebook but I miss blogs. Link to post Share on other sites
ripley Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 On 25/03/2018 at 9:21 PM, StupidDream said: But for me the worst thing about Facebook is how its become a monopoly. Remember back 15 years ago, everyone had their own sites, there was no censorship, no limit on who could see your stuff and the internet had real personality... With google YouTube and Facebook its just become a homogeneous corporate web, and no one owns any of their content anymore. I'd love to see people going back to having their own blogs, their own websites, etc. Yeh its a bit more effort but at least it will be yours. Just sayin' I really agree with this. I have a Facebook, but I only use it to keep in contact with old friends. But I also have a Tumblr and a blog that’s dedicated to reviewing things - mostly books (although it hasn’t been updated for a little while). I used to have a Livejournal back in the day too, before that hit a wall of trouble. But the thing all these websites have in common that I love is how customisable they are or were. You can change what it looks like, what you want it to be about, and it doesn’t need to be something personal but more like a place to enjoy a certain thing or a group of things. One thing Facebook did after Livejournal kinda fell was kill all the smaller blog sites that popped up that were similar — the only one I can think of that’s still around is Dreamwidth. Even back when I was younger, I remember a lot of school friends having Bebo accounts. I never really hopped on that bandwagon, but one thing I did like watching my friends do when we were on the computers was how they would change and customise what their page looked like with layouts and stuff. It really gave the pages a personality as to what the person might have been like. Facebook just feels so ... corporate. Link to post Share on other sites
StupidDream Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Its so easy and cheap now to have your own domain with a WordPress front end. With very little to no computer skills you can buy a domain and basic hosting for dirt cheap (<£50/yr for low traffic sites). They come with WordPress built in, you just click install, play around with themes and stuff and within an hour you can have something professional looking that's yours. Its so easy now. Don't need any admin skills, just let the hosting company do all the hard work etc. I should practice what I preach and set up my own site... Music and film reviews, how unoriginal Link to post Share on other sites
ben8884 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/facebook-democracy-social-media-1.4505631 Facebook has become harmful to our democracy Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/25/2018 at 9:21 PM, StupidDream said: But for me the worst thing about Facebook is how its become a monopoly. Remember back 15 years ago, everyone had their own sites, there was no censorship, no limit on who could see your stuff and the internet had real personality... With google YouTube and Facebook its just become a homogeneous corporate web, and no one owns any of their content anymore. I'd love to see people going back to having their own blogs, their own websites, etc. Yeh its a bit more effort but at least it will be yours. Just sayin' For someone with friends and family spread across 5 continents, Facebook is kinda central to keeping up to date with people for me. However I use it 2 times a month and deactivate my account after each login... I really miss the old pre Facebook Internet too!!! Bring back proper rss readers and it'll get going again!!! Link to post Share on other sites
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