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Roanch

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Hi, apologies for my ignorance but I only found out about asexuality a couple of weeks ago.

 

My wife and I have been having some difficulties and are seeing a sexual counsellor. We've been together 20+ years and have 3 wonderful children and life is perfect for us except that we have drifted apart very slowly and gradually to the point where we now sleep separately (ok same bed but I'm zipped up in a sleeping bag) and sex has dwindled from a couple of times a month to nothing in several months.

 

My wife never initiated sex. Well when we tried for children she did. And sometimes if I hint hint hint like crazy for a few days she did used to initiate it but only because I had been hinting like crazy for a couple of days and I feel it was maybe more due to sympathy than for wanting it herself.

There was always lots of excuses for not doing it even when we had arranged a date night, head aches, tired, early start, sore tummy, time of the month out of synch

There was often lots of conditions attached like be good all week and you might be lucky at the weekend. But these were often unachievable like maybe I shouted at the kids for doing things that kids need shouting at ... not getting ready for school or breaking the laptop, then that meant no nooky.

The deed always has to be done and finished as quick as possible. Often anything we do is difficult for her or painful even with lube, with or without condoms. I'd love her to take the lead role.

No Kissing allowed on the lips, (tongues are disgusting) no kissing the neck, ears, anywhere else.

No touching, leave the boobs alone etc 

Not very adventurous, don't like different positions, too difficult and too painful.

Lots of conditions lights have to be off or very very dim. It always has to be in the bedroom. Only ever at night time. Most definitely never in the morning. 

Trying to set a nice atmosphere always fails for me, she hates candles, she hates bubble baths, suggesting showering or bathing together was met with incredulous shock. Massages just don't do anything. sometimes after a nice meal at a nice restaurant she'll have eaten too much or be too tired.

After she told me she wasn't really enjoying it I researched and bought her a toy. She died of embarrassment and run out of the room the night I gave it to her. She asked me never to mention this ever again. I also bought me some novelty skimpy funny fireman shorts which did make her laugh but certainly didn't set anything on fire like I had hoped.

I used to shower her with compliments about how she looked and how certain clothes make her look hot (not allowed to use the word sexy). If her hair is messy first thing in the morning it really drives me wild and I tell her, if its straightened to go out it drives me wild and I tell her. If say she curls it then yes you've guessed it, it drives me wild and I tell her. She sees this as proof that I'm just a sex maniac.

She thinks I'm obsessed with sex and only say these things and ask her to wear these things because I want sex. I answer her honestly saying that yes I find her attractive and if I look at her or if I think about her, or if she brushes past me accidently, or bends over to empty the dishwasher (lol) yes it's true I get turned on. 

Sometimes I giver her money to buy nice clothes and hint hint hint at maybe getting nice underwear and she used to but she always resented 'having' to dress up and sees my want for this sort of thing as proof of my sex maniac problem. 

I'm really attracted to curvy female bodies and the clothes that she wears to work or when she goes out with her friends drive me wild. She's slim and attractive and works part time in a clothes shop. So this is hard for me. She would always change out of them as soon as she comes home incase it leads on to something.

We have great holidays. Two big ones and 7 mini breaks last year. But there is never a suitable moment for intimacy in her eyes. Excuses would often be the children and we couldn't possibly send them to kids clubs or anything. And now we often take her sister or her friends on holiday and this means definitely no chance for intimacy.

Once in the day time she needed the curtains drawn, even though we're upstairs and secluded by trees. But then we couldn't do it incase the neighbours noticed the curtains drawn (as if they would) and worked out what we were doing! I told her the worst thing was if they found out we weren't having sex because this would be the unnatural and even weirder thing. 

I asked her which celebrities she likes or fancies and what things she finds attractive. She says she's 40 years old and don't be silly, no one of her age looks at celebrities in that way. I pointed out that her friends al have their not so secret crushes and some go for 6 packs and big arms etc and she doesn't believe me. But they told me this. Do middle aged women really never have crushes or desires or fantasies. I have loads of crushes, and loads of fantasies - she's in all of them lol. She says none of her friends has sex more than occasionally now we are in 40s and have kids.

She did seem to accept that her libido was a bit low a while back and mentioned this to her doctor. They changed her pill. Nothing. wait a year to let chemicals leave body. nothing. tried coming off the pill altogether. nothing, wait a year to get chemicals out of body. still nothing. So she's not on pill and not taking any other medication.

 

Me ... ok I'm no brad pitt. I don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol (quite boring really). But I eat well and started going to the gym a few years back to rekindle the fire and although I never put on much muscle my body fat is low and I probably look ok ish. In certain lighting when the sun and the moon are in perfect alignment if you squint there's a bit of a six pack there lol. I've recently run a couple of marathons / triathlons in fairly good times and I have a very physical job. I coach kids football at the weekends and evenings. So that all means that I'm now same the waist size as I was at 17 (47 now). Obviously age is catching up on me though, the hair is greying, and my wrinkles are more wrinkly etc. Luckily they have hair dye and moisturiser for that. I'm no Adonis by any means but I'm also pretty sure that I don't have any obvious turn offs like obesity, bo or bad breath. Sometimes other people comment how well I look for my age. She never says anything complimentary and says that she just doesn't find six packs, muscles or any particular body shape attractive or unattractive.

 

So far our counselling has just focussed on me and the things that I do that prevent her wanting to be intimate.

Main problem is my 'abnormal' sex drive which had to be checked out by the GP.  She doesn't like it that sometimes in my sleep or early in the morning I get aroused. Sometimes in my sleep I try to hold her, hug her squeeze her or just touch her, because she's just not a very touchy feely type of person. GP says I'm all ok and normal. So I now zip myself up in a sleeping bag and were now several months with no intimacy at all. It's hard for me and not bothering her at all. I must say it's not just the physical side that is destroying me, it's the emotional closeness that hurts more.

 

And so I thought what else could it be if it's not me. And that's when Google pointed me here. I'm really looking for some help from anyone and Relate, Sex counselling etc all seem to be failing. 

 

Sorry so long and thanks for reading (if anyone actually got this far)

 

 

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Telecaster68

If you've read much of the rest of this section, you'll see you're far from the only spouse in this kind of situation. We get it. We know the pain you're feeling.


First thing to say... if she is asexual, all those things you've tried will do absolutely nothing to help. It's not you, and it's not your relationship with her. You will never, ever be sexually attractive to her because if she's asexual, she doesn't feel sexual attraction to anyone. It's not your fault, it's not her fault. Asexuality is considered a sexual orientation, so you might as well be trying to get a lesbian to want to have sex with you. If anything, she could be experiencing your efforts as pressure to do something she doesn't want to, and feeling anxious and guilty because she's unable to respond.

 

It sounds like your GP is right - getting aroused in your sleep or first thing in the morning is normal, healthy behaviour for men. Your GP would probably have concerns about your health if you didn't.

 

This site is about asexuality, so people tend to assume any lack of interest in sex means asexuality, but it might not be. Given her age, could it be menopause tanking her libido? About 20% of women (if I remember rightly) basically never want sex again after the hormones disappear. About a third of them want it a lot less. Has she asked the GP about this?

 

Was she ever really into sex? If so, was it in the same way that sexual women are, or did it (maybe) have a weird disjointed quality. Asexuals don't feel any emotional connection from sex, so you may have noticed it was missing - or in retrospect, it might be the explanation for why it felt a bit 'off'? Lots of sexual partners mention this, and they only figure it out in retrospect.

 

Have you talked about asexuality with her? It might be that she's worrying about something being wrong with her, in which case finding out she's not broken would be a relief. Whatever - you need to have calm, non-bedroom conversations about the situation. It may be that she doesn't understand how badly it's affecting you. She might be so anxious about it she'd just rather avoid the subject, but while nobody owes each other sex, partners in a relationship owe each other communication.

 

The common experience here is that while the lack of sex is bad enough, what really kills a relationship is the lack of emotional closeness, and lack of communication about it.

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Welcome Roanch - I pretty much echo everything Telecaster says from a sexual woman’s standpoint.  You did say your wife was never really into sex and has never initiated except when incentivized to create children.  As a sexual female with a libido, she would certainly want sex with you far more than you describe.  Defining your wife is not that which is important.  Discussing the lack of sex, and it’s impact on you, is critical.  Have a look around this site to see how other couples work through their issues, keep reading all you can, and of course continue communicating with your wife.  

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anisotrophic

@Roanch in case it helps, I started here: https://theacetheist.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/what-to-do-if-you-think-your-partner-might-be-asexual/

 

And I took it to heart. I read a lot on the Asexuality Archive. I learned a *lot* before approaching my husband of many years. I did it with reassurance, not accusation.

And I reminded myself that it was his orientation to work out – I couldn't assign an identity for him. Maybe it's this, maybe it's not.
 

(We also have children. I'm a couple years younger than your wife. My gender has shifted, but I did so much of what you did – trying so much… so many things… so, I'm skeptical of sexual partners being characterized as abnormally sexual. I suspect they may be trying really hard to figure out how to inspire an ace. And it's not working. And I think it transcends gender.)

 

Later, we read this book together – https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Orientation-Introduction-Asexuality-Generation/dp/1634502434

 

I'm still working through it, I'd love to hear other resources others found helpful.

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I must say my heart broke, reading your post. Your hopeful desire for your wife and her indifference or worse, dislike. She probably can't help being as she is, as you clearly recognize. You clearly can't help what you feel. What a sad mess.

 

I can definitely relate with the feelings of attraction. This happens with me for my ace all the time. For what it is worth, I'm in my 40s and nowhere close to disinterest in sex. In fact, one of the problems we have is that because sex is infrequent, having it can get me horny for more really soon, which can be a bit hard for my ace. It is like seeing the possibility makes me even more aware of wanting it. Your wife doesn't, but what she says about women in general is not correct, though a lot of aces here have described feeling disbelief that others want sex so much, so she may simply not believe that other women want it, since it does not fit her experience.

 

She sounds like she is probably asexual, or even if not, disinterested and averse enough for a lot of the ideas from here to be useful.

 

Frankly, from your post, she does not appear to have anything going on the attraction front. Which can be really hard for you. It is hard to know what to suggest in a situation like this. Does she enjoy general affection? Cuddling, arms around each other while watching a film, something? Depending on how averse she is, you could probably explain how you feel the need for contact with her, and it really isn't a sign of being a sex maniac to desire your wife.

 

One thing you said strikes a note with something my partner said two days ago. You described your wife as wanting sex when you were trying to have children. My partner said something I found odd at that time, but remembered when I read your post. He said "I think it is a fundamental difference in how the sex drive manifests. We aces see sex as necessary for procreation. It is pleasurable, but it doesn't really have much of a function physically or emotionally apart from that. Sexual people seem to have turned it into a recreational thing" At that time, I was like "dude, do you even know the size of the contraceptive industry..." but of course he knows, he sees that as the difference. He sees it as a part of the "recreational manifestation" of the sex drive.

 

Have you considered opening up your relationship?

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Telecaster68

That blog post has a lot of good info, but it doesn't address the third possible response when a sexual partner brings up potential asexuality... apathy and a kind of shoulder shrugging lack of interest, which going by posts on AVEN, happens a lot more than asexual posters like to think it does. I understand this is an awkward subject for the asexual, and they feel anxious, but brushing it off and refusing to talk about it really isn't fair on the sexual partner.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

what she says about women in general is not correct, though a lot of aces here have described feeling disbelief that others want sex so much, so she may simply not believe that other women want it, since it does not fit her experience.

My wife's version of that was that sex involving emotions was a 'male thing'. I took a while to regain the power of speech after that one.

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For what it is worth, if she isn't averse to touching you (as opposed to being touched herself), you could try asking her to touch you in a manner that brings you pleasure and she doesn't find too averse. Explain to her, that sex really is your need for intimacy in the relationship and it is quite insensitive to dismiss and ridicule your desires and unilaterally establish a norm. Both of you are people with different preferences and calling you a "sex maniac" is really cruel and childish. Would she appreciate being termed "frigid" or "cold"? Both of you are simply how you are. And in a loving relationship, even if there is no middle ground easily found, there should at least be caring and sensitivity for the needs of both.

 

That said, after a pattern established for decades, she may not see any need to compromise, since her preference clearly is to avoid you.

 

You may have to decide whether you need sex or the relationship more. This is even hard to tell someone who described their wife in the manner you did in your OP, but it is what it is. She may simply decide to shrug you request off, since she's got away with it for so long.

 

Again, it may not be intentional cruelty, but simply how the mind operates. When my ace found out that he was ace, it was like his mental script changed from "I am a part of a couple, and couples have sex" to "I am ace, and asexuals don't have sex" and poof, he completely lost all awareness or interest in sex, leaving me disoriented. He didn't do it on purpose, but the awareness of sex itself is rarely on his mind. What little was there was because of the "relationship norm" sort of thing and his continuing puzzlement that it didn't seem to "work" for him. He kept thinking that he'd get used to it and it would click, except it didn't. When he found out he was ace, it was like "mystery solved, case closed"!!!

 

But we are very close to each other emotionally, and physically too in terms of shows of affection, etc. So it was relatively easy to get him to see my side of things and needs as well. From what you narrate, that does not sound easy.

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On a complete tangent, I must say I am stunned that your therapist is focusing on you being a "sex maniac" if what you are describing about sex once in a few months is true. You probably also need a better therapist who understands sex.

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I raised the issue in our last joint sex counseling and the counselor seemed rather annoyed. She said that was something private for my wife to divulge if she wanted to. I was meant to be talking about my problems.  And I tried to raise it briefly with my wife and we had a big argument. You know the sort when you don’t talk for several days.  

 

Im new to all this and struggling. I need to read more but are there maybe say 2 or 3 simple yes no questions I could ask her? The answers which would tell me if we both need to spend more time on sites like this or dismiss asexuality as not being part of our difficulty. 

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Telecaster68

AVEN's stance is that only she can choose to identify as an asexual. There are lots of problems with this approach, particularly for partners of asexuals, but you could at least figure out if you should base your own understanding and actions in your relationship 'as if' she was an asexual. You could try:

 

1. For herself, would she be bothered if she never had sex again?

2. If you (Roanch) never wanted to have sex with her again, would it bother her?

3. Is she bothered by your distress about never having sex again?

4. If she is, is she willing to compromise for your sake?

 

The answers work like this:

 

1. No asexual would be bothered if they never had sex again. All sexuals would be.

2. Asexuals would rather there was no sex in the relationship, even if they're willing to compromise for the sake of their partner. They prefer not to be desired. Sexuals are very bothered by the prospect of not being desired by their partners even if they don't want to have sex at the moment.

3. Some asexual partners just don't see the problem. Or, they see the problem, but they consider it entirely your problem and beyond their control. Others do see the problem and want to help.

4. If she is bothered, she may be able/willing to have some kind of sexual activity for your sake. She'll never desire  you sexually, but she might want to give you pleasure, enjoy the closeness in a non-sexual way, or possibly even enjoy sex physically but can take or leave whether she ever has sex again (I know, I can't get my head round that last one either).

 

So if you get all 'no's, you're left with the choice of never having sex again, opening the relationship, cheating, or splitting up.  Any other combination of 'yes' and 'no' and  you've maybe got something to work with.

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I think you need questions for what you should do rather than what she is. Whether she identifies as ace or not is not the issue here, for practical purposes what you describe is ace-like behavior. Your problem is your frustration. You need to figure out what you can do - either together or apart. I'd be thinking more along the lines of:

  • I am feeling very frustrated on the sexual front. I desire you and while I don't need sex every time I desire you, I do need it more often and more willingly than a highly restricted favor every few months. Are you going to be willing and able to do this with me?
  • If you have no sexual interest in me, how do you feel about me having another relationship that meets my needs for sexual intimacy?
  • Do you have any suggestions for how we could find mutual comfort?

If the answer to the first question is no, you basically have little choice beyond either ending the relationship or opening it or accepting a sexless relationship. Frankly, if my partner were not able to meet me on the sexual front (10-90 or 50-50 or 90-10 is unimportant as long as we can meet), I would be even more wary of partial efforts that only leave me more horny, so whatever compromise it is, you will need to be sure you can live with it.

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Telecaster68
18 minutes ago, Roanch said:

I raised the issue in our last joint sex counseling and the counselor seemed rather annoyed. She said that was something private for my wife to divulge if she wanted to.

What, exactly, is up to your wife to divulge, according to your counsellor?

 

Surely the point of counselling is to communicate this stuff, and if your wife chooses not to divulge something, she's communicating 'I don't care about the situation enough to communicate my feelings' - which tells you something in itself.

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26 minutes ago, Roanch said:

I raised the issue in our last joint sex counseling and the counselor seemed rather annoyed. She said that was something private for my wife to divulge if she wanted to. I was meant to be talking about my problems.  And I tried to raise it briefly with my wife and we had a big argument. You know the sort when you don’t talk for several days.  

 

Im new to all this and struggling. I need to read more but are there maybe say 2 or 3 simple yes no questions I could ask her? The answers which would tell me if we both need to spend more time on sites like this or dismiss asexuality as not being part of our difficulty. 

It is not important whether she is ace. What the bottom line is for you and if you can find middle ground is important for you. She may be ace, or she may have low libido or she may have physical difficulties with painful sex or have discovered she is lesbian or she may simply not be itnerested in you or anything, really. It is not relevant whether she feels desire for people in general or not at this point. What is relevant is that she does not feel it for you, and you are not able to handle this.

 

Edit: This is more for the purposes of understanding where the therapist will be coming from. On your end, it will be useful to describe what the sex deprivation does to you. A therapist allowing a label like "sex maniac" sounds very unprofessional, but I have my own issues with therapists and professional standards and prejudices and it is not relevant. However, "sex maniac" or not, this is how you are and these are your needs - whether reasonable or not. The therapist should still be able to understand this.

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Telecaster68
5 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It is not relevant whether she feels desire for people in general or not at this point.

It's relevant because if the reason she doesn't want to have sex is specific to Roanch or the relationship maybe something could be done. If she's asexual (even if she's evading the issue), then the only alternative is 'sex as a favour'.

 

The real bottom line is: 'is she okay with not lifting a finger and dismissing her spouse's misery, or does she care enough to try do something about it?' but that's not really a helpful way to frame the issue...

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4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's relevant because if the reason she doesn't want to have sex is specific to Roanch or the relationship maybe something could be done. If she's asexual (even if she's evading the issue), then the only alternative is 'sex as a favour'.

Generally, maintaining an open space in therapy will involve not allowing labels, though I can't figure out how something as judgmental as "sex maniac" is being allowed, but a reasonably descriptive term (rather than insult) "asexual" is a problem. Regardless, most therapists will not allow confrontations over labeling someone, because it narrows the space for dialogue. If his wife is not willing to discuss herself as an ace, the therapist will not allow the confrontation. 

 

Note: I am NOT a therapist, though I have worked enough to understand the process and have excellent competencies relevant to it. So, what happens in actual practice may vary from my opinions of what "clean process" is.

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Telecaster68

I still think it's worth Roanch figuring out whether he thinks applies though, whether or not she wants to talk about it in counselling. At the very least, he'll understand why the bacon-scented candles approach is futile.

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I still think it's worth Roanch figuring out whether he thinks applies though, whether or not she wants to talk about it in counselling. At the very least, he'll understand why the bacon-scented candles approach is futile.

From practical purposes of resolving the issue, this is not relevant. In order to figure out if she is ace, she will have to consent and self identify - which she is not inclined to do. Even if you figure out the reason AND the reason is something that has a solution, the solution can still not be applied without her cooperation. So far, she does not seem to be inclined to engage on the sexual front at all. From the perspective of conflict resolution, this is a dead end. 

 

At least at this point, there is no working on issues "together" on her end in that sense, where she will willingly confide. In such a situation, the functional approach would be to negotiate with her at her stated stance. What is she willing to do, and whether @Roanch finds that acceptable is what this will boil down to.

 

She may have a bucketload of issues to resolve, but unless she makes it his business, they are not. And this is not a rule, or norm, but the practical offshoot of the situation - in the sense, it will not change while the situation remains as it is by railing or arguing or negotiating against it.

 

Edit: On the other hand, pressuring her to identify as asexual or not will be bad process, because:

  • suggesting a solution out of many possible solutions creates a bias and can complicate the problem, if it wrongly gets identified because of the bias.
  • her resistance to being termed as an asexual may make her suspect the whole process as one that puts her in a position of shouldering blame, and she may resist even the more reasonable negotiations such as asking her to state her willingness to negotiate on the sexual front.
  • Even if she were willing to negotiate, if she feels cornered about what she will perceive as an "accusation of being asexual", she may decide not to.

This is counterproductive.

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3 hours ago, Roanch said:

Me ... ok I'm no brad pitt. I don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol (quite boring really). But I eat well and started going to the gym a few years back to rekindle the fire and although I never put on much muscle my body fat is low and I probably look ok ish. In certain lighting when the sun and the moon are in perfect alignment if you squint there's a bit of a six pack there lol. I've recently run a couple of marathons / triathlons in fairly good times and I have a very physical job. I coach kids football at the weekends and evenings. So that all means that I'm now same the waist size as I was at 17 (47 now). Obviously age is catching up on me though, the hair is greying, and my wrinkles are more wrinkly etc. Luckily they have hair dye and moisturiser for that. I'm no Adonis by any means but I'm also pretty sure that I don't have any obvious turn offs like obesity, bo or bad breath. Sometimes other people comment how well I look for my age. She never says anything complimentary and says that she just doesn't find six packs, muscles or any particular body shape attractive or unattractive.

Try not to make her lack of desire about your appeal. It is very, very unlikely to be about how you look or don't look. On the other hand, it could be about how you act. Sometimes sexuals can think of spontaneous touch as experessing desire, but unless that desire is reciprocated, it is an uninvited touch violating personal space - this can turn people averse, even if they are otherwise favorable or indifferent. So, all those times when you talk of being turned on, if you are actually touching her because of it and getting rejected, you may want to stop that totally. 

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Telecaster68
18 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

In order to figure out if she is ace, she will have to consent and self identify - which she is not inclined to do.

This is the bit I disagree with. If it walks and quacks like a duck (and answers to the first two questions I listed will be the quack), why do you have to convince the duck to say the word 'duck' before you can think of it as a duck? Holding back from calling it a duck because it's convinced it's a helicopter, or just can't/won't comment one way or another is ceding yet more agency and just obtuse. The label 'asexual' hasn't been used, except probably in Roanch's head, and then only as a shorthand for her attitudes she's expressed. It hasn't impinged on his wife at all.

 

And it would change the approach. If she answers 'yes' to the first couple of questions, then in principle, she wants to have sex at some point, and she'd be upset if Roanch didn't fancy her any more. So that's a starting point. If she said 'no' to both of them, it's pretty clear the duck is dead in the water...

 

The problem might be getting her to answer the question in the first place, but surely, surely any counsellor will facilitate that, and understand the implications of a flat refusal.

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Telecaster68
19 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

unless she makes it his business

The refusal to make it his business speaks volumes in itself.

 

EDIT: on second thoughts, it's already his business, since he's half of the relationship and they're affecting him badly. This is why closing down on the issue is unfair.

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22 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is the bit I disagree with. If it walks and quacks like a duck (and answers to the first two questions I listed will be the quack), why do you have to convince the duck to say the word 'duck' before you can refer to it as a duck? Holding back from calling it a duck because it's convinced it's a helicopter, or just can't/won't comment one way or another is ceding yet more agency and just obtuse. The label 'asexual' hasn't been used, except probably in Roanch's head, and then only as a shorthand for her attitudes she's expressed. It hasn't impinged on his wife at all.

He is already here on an asexuality forum. However, forcing her to admit it violates her autonomy. And it may not even work. She may disagree and have her own reasons, which she may not find necessary to share. Which is why operating from an observable level is useful in such a situation. It has landed him to a good place to get advice for his situation, whether she is ace or not. On the other hand, two attempts to force her to admit to being ace have backfired - the therapist called a halt to one, the other ended up with a fight between them and still no communication.

 

I am not disagreeing that she may be ace or will be better off admitting it. I am speaking from almost two decades of experience working with situations involving human behavior and conflict resolution and know what works and what doesn't. Who is to blame is not important. How to resolve is.

 

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And it would change the approach. If she answers 'yes' to the first couple of questions, then in principle, she wants to have sex at some point, and she'd be upset if Roanch didn't fancy her any more. So that's a starting point. If she said 'no' to both of them, it's pretty clear the duck is dead in the water...

But she is not willing to engage on the subject.

 

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The problem might be getting her to answer the question in the first place, but surely, surely any counsellor will facilitate that, and understand the implications of a flat refusal.

Therapists don't have supernatural powers. They aren't mind readers. If she refuses to answer, at best a therapist can make an educated guess if it is really necessary for where the therapy has reached - will never be in initial stages. More like the situation is not resolvable, so observably, here is the thing. So what do you want to do? Labels will still be avoided.

 

21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The refusal to make it his business speaks volumes in itself.

I think you are projecting a lot of your situation onto this. We don't actually know why she does not want to discuss it. Perhaps she does not agree, but has reasons she does not want to share, so knows the asexuality is a futile argument. For practical purposes, the why is not as important as the what. A person may choose to share their reasons, but that will not change the reality. Merely give some insight into it. The reality will still be the most important thing.

 

But, I'm repeating myself, so I'll stop engaging on this here. I am not the therapist in this situation in any case. I am just explaining the general principles. For all we know, the person may be operating on some other framework.

 

Edit: Your questions are good ones to ask. It is specifically about labeling her asexual against her wish that I am talking about. He may understand her to be asexual, but the minute he calls her that regardless of her wish, it alienates her.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

However, forcing her to admit it violates her autonomy.

Nobody's saying he should do that though. All that's happening is he's asking his wife about her attitudes to their sexual relationship, and that's perfectly legitimate. Then he's drawing his own private conclusions with this increased information, so he can work out what to do next.

 

3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

But she is not willing to engage on the subject.

She's not willing to give a 'yes/no' to the explicit asexual question. She is willing to take part in counselling though, and those questions are perfectly legitimate questions in that context. They're purely informational, with no judgement implied.

 

5 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Therapists don't have supernatural powers.

I'm not saying they do. I'm saying that without a counsellor in the room (and it's a counsellor, not a therapist), his wife can distract, counter accuse, and generally throw up flack, and that sounds like what's happened before.

 

A counsellor will - hopefully kindly - cut through those. Plus the counsellor will be seen as a kind of referee by both sides, so Roanch will have to shut up and listen too, and his wife will know that she'll get a decent hearing, which could well make it easier to elicit an answer to those questions.

 

Obviously nobody will know the reason for her choosing not to answer if that's what happens, but it will be saying for sure 'I have a better reason for not answering than answering' - in this context 'I have something going on that's more important to me than my husband's misery and/or our marriage'. 

 

8 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

A person may choose to share their reasons, but that will not change the reality. Merely give some insight into it.

That insight could well change the reality - a partnership where one partner refuses to discuss a massive rift in the relationship is a different reality to a partnership where both sides are willing to talk about it.

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3 hours ago, Roanch said:

Often anything we do is difficult for her or painful even with lube, with or without condoms. I

Did everyone miss this?  

 

If sex is painful for her, then something else might be going on.  She may have a serious underlying medical condition that needs attention, pronto!

 

Instead of trying to 'inspire' her to have sex, may you would try to inspire her to see a doctor...NOW?   

 

 

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Telecaster68
14 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Did everyone miss this?  

 

If sex is painful for her, then something else might be going on.  She may have a serious underlying medical condition that needs attention, pronto!

 

Instead of trying to 'inspire' her to have sex, may you would try to inspire her to see a doctor...NOW?   

 

 

True, and she should. It wasn't painful when she wanted children though, apparently.

 

Most sexual women would've seen a doctor ages ago though, so they could have sex again.

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anisotrophic
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

That blog post has a lot of good info, but it doesn't address the third possible response when a sexual partner brings up potential asexuality... apathy and a kind of shoulder shrugging lack of interest, which going by posts on AVEN, happens a lot more than asexual posters like to think it does. I understand this is an awkward subject for the asexual, and they feel anxious, but brushing it off and refusing to talk about it really isn't fair on the sexual partner.


Yeah, the avoidance sounds awful. :( Reasons must vary a lot. Maybe also gets entangled with the constructions of gender expectations? ("Women aren't supposed to want sex anyway"?) I can only say I feel lucky.

It seems like vaginismus / pain on sex and asexuality can be interrelated in women. It doesn't mean asexuality is or isn't also present?

I see a lot of utility in framing a situation as "asexuality" rather than "why aren't we aren't haven't sex" – although maybe I need to hear some "turns out my partner wasn't ace" stories!

Here's the benefits I think?

  • recognizing a "it's not you, it's me" situation, there's nothing a sexual partner can do to change this. (Not even change their sex. Haha. I only half-joke. Ah well.)
  • framing it as unchangeable – accepting it as an orientation, not a problem to be solved
  • (maybe) remove or reduce a sense of pressure/expectation on an ace
  • ace realizes they are truly different from their sexual partner, and hence, become more sympathetic to their partner's struggles
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30 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Did everyone miss this?  

 

If sex is painful for her, then something else might be going on.  She may have a serious underlying medical condition that needs attention, pronto!

 

Instead of trying to 'inspire' her to have sex, may you would try to inspire her to see a doctor...NOW?   

This is a 20+ year old relationship with 3 kids and so on. (In original post)

 

I did consider it as a factor, but there does not appear to be any other metnion of illness or pain being an overall deterrent. It sounded like one of the many reasons sex got refused. Combined with lube being mentioned immediately after, it looked to me as an issue of her not being aroused and inadequate lubrication being the source of the pain.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that was what went through my mind on that subject, which is why I didn't have more suggestions than the lube already mentioned, since the lack of arousal was also pretty obvious and not looking like something that could be addressed. So in my view, it was more a part of whether she was willing and able to meet him on the sexual front - covered under "able".

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Thanks for all the interest and replies. It’s been a long drawn out process to get here, 18 months ago I initiated relate counseling and our sexual needs imbalance was addressed. The sex maniac label is hers not the counselors but they described it as an abnormality (because we weren’t matched). Things seemed to get a bit better but then took a downfall after a very romantic and fun (my thoughts) in France last summer. We weren’t intimate though because her sister somehow got invited at the last moment. And in talking about our fantastic holiday with the kids white water rafting and everything, lovely little b&b s in the mountains I mentioned that point and all hell broke out. You know is that all you ever think about. So we’re back to relate and she gave up on us. Advices we go back to gp and ask to be referred to the hospital for sexual counseling or therapy. I’m not sure of difference. So we have both had to go to gp independently and state that we both want to do this. So I’m sure there’s loads of opportunities for any medical issues to be addressed. 

 

Whats interesting as as I write this is that her sister was married 6 months before this holiday. Strange that she chose to come on holiday without her new husband. I like him and get on well with him (and her). But she is 40 and desperately trying for a baby. I didn’t want to state the bleeding obvious to her but couldn’t help thinking spending 2 weeks away from hubby ain’t going to help with baby making. She seems to have struggled with relationships up to now and like my wife can be a little abrasive to friendly ness / flirty ness from men. A long time ago I had to fix something in her parents house and I couldn’t help notice separate beds. I mentioned this to my wife and she said this was perfectly normal for middle aged people. Is it??? Her mum definitely wears the trousers in that household and her dad (lovely bloke) does what ever he is told. In 25 years I’ve never seen them hold hands or show any affection towards each other. There has never been one kind word towards him, but there are lots of jokes that he is like all men just useless and hopeless.  In fact no one in the family ever hugs or kisses for greetings , goodbyes, or even when really sad. They’re a lovely family but my wife just says we’re not touchy feely people. It’s funny but I really see the 3 women in that family Converging. She’s turning into her mum and I’m turning into her dad (I don’t have a dad to turn into). 

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18 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

True, and she should. It wasn't painful when she wanted children though, apparently.

 

Most sexual women would've seen a doctor ages ago though, so they could have sex again.

That is sooooo untrue.  

 

Being a sexual woman does NOT mean that your ONLY priority or even MAJOR priority in life is sex.  You may have family, work, children, church, friends, and they can ALL become priorities over sex many times over.  

 

 

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Telecaster68

They'd have left it for  20 years, with their regular checkups highlighting it? Come off it. 

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