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I don't understand romantic relationships, but I feel like I might be being disrespectful


Beaver Boy

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13 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

I'm more than 100% monogamous. I don't count hugs as sexual intimacy. 

I reckon, that's because my romantic feelings are somewhat learned.

I never experienced anything you listed even though people tend to give me gorilla grips and even lift me up due to my height.

I see it as trust issues, not monogamous thing

You're free to see it like that and feel that way if that's what you want to do, but my partner and I don't have trust issues. We couldn't be together if we did because we live 11,500 miles apart and no one could remain together from that distance (without being miserable) if they had trust issues. We both trust each other 100%, and both enjoy total intimate monogamy (meaning, no touching anyone else). Also, a hug isn't 'sexual' for us either, but we still would never hug anyone outside of our family, because we reserve that intimacy for each other and enjoy that. Just because you personally wouldn't enjoy that, doesn't mean there is something wrong with us (or Beaver Boy's girlfriend or her boyfriend) or anything wrong with our relationships. Everyone is different and I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand :o Beaver Boy seems to be understanding me but maybe that's because he's aromantic so his personal romantic preferences (which he doesn't have, being aromantic) are not getting in the way of being able to understand that other people can have different preferences?

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I understand monogamy fine thanks. If  he can't understand the difference between hugging a friend and potential infidelity, he has some kind of control issues or cognitive impairment. I know AVEN likes to say everything's fine and valid, but really, some things are just dick moves. 

would you say the same for me and my partner after reading my above comment?

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Telecaster68

It probably is to do with gradations of intimacy. If hugging is the most intimate thing you do, then save it for your most intimate relationship. But this isn't the case here, as I understand it.

 

But there has to be a line drawn somewhere or you end up with men insisting women wear burkhas. 

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It probably is to do with gradations of intimacy. If hugging is the most intimate thing you do, then save it for your most intimate relationship. But this isn't the case here, as I understand it.

what if, for you, hugging was AS intimate as other forms of intimacy, like giving your girlfriend oral sex or kissing her naked body or whatever? For us, it's another form of the romantic and sensual intimacy we enjoy together, hence why we both enjoy saving that for each other (especially long hugs like Beaver Boy was talking about). Maybe the boyfriend in this case is more like us? It could be an important aspect of the intimacy they share together, for him. We can't know without actually talking to him about it :o 

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11 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

You're free to see it like that and feel that way if that's what you want to do, but my partner and I don't have trust issues. We couldn't be together if we did because we live 11,500 miles apart and no one could remain together from that distance (without being miserable) if they had trust issues. We both trust each other 100%, and both enjoy total intimate monogamy (meaning, no touching anyone else). Also, a hug isn't 'sexual' for us either, but we still would never hug anyone outside of our family, because we reserve that intimacy for each other and enjoy that. Just because you personally wouldn't enjoy that, doesn't mean there is something wrong with us (or Beaver Boy's girlfriend or her boyfriend) or anything wrong with our relationships. Everyone is different and I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand :o Beaver Boy seems to be understanding me but maybe that's because he's aromantic so his personal romantic preferences (which he doesn't have, being aromantic) are getting in the way of being able to understand that other people can have different preferences?

Welcome to the LDR club, btw.

My level of understanding is measured by how things make sense to me.

You also need to understand that your relationship isn't everyone else's relationship. I'm not the most romantic person out there. Neither do I understand romance fully. However, I don't think your or mine experiences are universal truth.

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5 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

You also need to understand that your relationship isn't everyone else's relationship. I'm not the most romantic person out there. Neither do I understand romance fully. However, I don't think your experiences are universal truth.

You must have misread me. I did already clarify that romantic relationships are different for everyone depending on the people involved, and what I was saying is that because it's like this for me and my partner, that may be the case for her and her boyfriend, we don't know without talking to them.

 

It's not automatically toxic or negative or controlling, just because it's different than what you personally desire and enjoy in your relationship. We'd need to talk to the two individuals themselves before we can jump to those conclusions. That's what I was saying.

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9 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

You must have misread me. I did already clarify that romantic relationships are different for everyone depending on the people involved, and what I was saying is that because it's like this for me and my partner, that may be the case for her and her boyfriend, we don't know without talking to them.

 

It's not automatically toxic or negative or controlling, just because it's different than what you personally desire and enjoy in your relationship. That's what I was saying.

It may.

Or it may not.

Of course everyone's relationship is different, though I never stumbled across a person who would see hugging as an issue unless they're jealous or controlling. You're my very first encounter.

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33 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Of course everyone's relationship is different, though I never stumbled across a person who would see hugging as an issue unless they're jealous or controlling. You're my very first encounter.

I've met a lot of people who aren't comfortable with their partner having 'long hugs' (as in, snuggles) with people of the gender that matches their sexual orientation, especially if the other person is single. Out of interest @Telecaster68, if you and your wife were sexually active (like at the start of you relationship), would you be comfortable with her 'long hugging' (snuggling) a single, sexual male friend while they watch a movie together at his place? (I know the OP says he's aromantic etc, but the lady in question's boyfriend may not know or believe that). And even if Tele would be totally fine with that, it's not uncommon for people to want that kind of intimacy reserved for each other without it having to be about jealousy or possessiveness. 

 

Edit: wait wait, Yata, your profile says you're grey-aromantic. You're not even really coming at this from the same page as I am then? Every aromantic-identifying person I've met on AVEN has always had trouble understanding these concepts to begin with at least, and there have been many romantic people who have tried to explain this stuff to aromantics on AVEN over the years (I've been part of many of these convo since I joined AVEN in 2013). Not all romantic people feel that way, obviously, like Tele seems to be saying he'd be fine with his wife having any intimacy that isn't sexual? But there are even romantic people who are uncomfortable with their partner having intimate conversations with other people and would feel cheated on as a result of them sharing that emotional intimacy with someone else, even if no physical contact happened. It's not about jealousy or control though, it's just the way romantic emotions work and some people attach greater intimacy to some acts than to others. If you see snuggling (long hugs) as a very intimate and private act (which many people do, I actually haven't met many men especially who are into snuggling people they aren't romantically or sexually involved with) then it's understandable why you would be uncomfortable with the idea of your partner doing that with other people.

 

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Telecaster68

OP said 'long hugs', which aren't the same as snuggling, and yes I'm fine with that, if it's an old friend and that's how they've always been. 

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8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

OP said 'long hugs', which aren't the same as snuggling, and yes I'm fine with that, if it's an old friend and that's how they've always been. 

wow your words are really tiny, lol.  But Tele, would you be okay with your wife having her arms around a single, sexual guy (and his arms around her) while they watch a movie together, if you were both still young and quite sexually active like I'm assuming the couple Beaver is talking about is? Because that's the type of hugging I've been referring to. Not like 'hello/goodbye/nice to see you' hugs. And with these 'long hugs', as you seem to be talking about regular (as in, they happen often) hugs with someone you know well, do you give your male friends the same 'long hugs' regularly as you would give female friends? (again, I'm talking about 'longer than a brief hello/goodbye/nice to see you again' hug)

 

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to show there's a 'difference' when it comes to hugging, for a lot of people. Many heterosexual males, for example, wouldn't hug a male friend on the couch while they watch a show together in the same way they might hug a female friend if they were both single (and even then, some people prefer to leave that for romantic and/or sexual relationships). Because no matter how much people say 'hugs aren't sexual' there's still often a difference between a 'long hug' between a man and a woman, and a long hug between two men, if the men in question are heterosexual. Again, I am NOT talking about 'hey/how are you?/nice to see you/goodbye' briefer hugs.

 

@Beaver Boy, with 'long hugs' what did you mean exactly? Like, she wouldn't give you a brief hello/goodbye/nice to see you hug, or didn't want you to keep your arms around each other for a longer period of time while you sit in the park or watch a show or something? By 'long hugs' I was assuming you meant keeping your arms around each other while you watch a show together or something like that? For a 'longer' period of time. Even just holding onto each other for 'longer' when you hug, like.. 40 seconds.. that's starting to get pretty long and intimate :P (and again, many hetero men would NOT remain hugging each other for that long as they'd both start feeling uncomfortable)

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Telecaster68

The OP called them long hugs, which to me are the kind of extended embrace you might have at the end of a good evening with good friends, whereas a 'normal' hug would be more like 2-3 second hug. I would be fine with either of those. 

 

Watching TV in someone else's arms isn't a hug, it's more like a snuggle or a cuddle and I wouldn't be fine with that. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The OP called them long hugs, which to me are the kind of extended embrace you might have at the end of a good evening with good friends, whereas a 'normal' hug would be more like 2-3 second hug. I would be fine with either of those. 

 

Watching TV in someone else's arms isn't a hug, it's more like a snuggle or a cuddle and I wouldn't be fine with that. 

 

Ah yes, I was referring more to what you're calling a snuggle or a cuddle with my comments. Semantics can be frustrating in these kinds of situations. For me, anything longer than 10 seconds is taking it beyond regular or even long hug territory and into something much more intimate and personal (I don't hug anyone for that long other than my kids or partner - though same applies when I'm single, not even my parents. But that's just how I am personally). Beaver Boy will clarify the type of hugs he meant when he said 'long hugs'. Again, what might be a long hug to him could be a 'cuddle' to the girl or her boyfriend, which is another reason why her (and her boyfriend's) perspectives would be useful here. People's feelings really do vary quite extensively on this topic depending on the type of intimate value they personally place on the specific type of hugs. If her boyfriend isn't someone who does 'long hugs' with people other than his partner (which isn't uncommon) then it's understandable why he may place a lot more intimate value in them and feel uncomfortable about the idea of his girlfriend doing them with other guys! But yeah, depends on the type of long hug Beaver is referring to :P

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1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

Beaver Boy seems to be understanding me but maybe that's because he's aromantic so his personal romantic preferences (which he doesn't have, being aromantic) are not getting in the way of being able to understand that other people can have different preferences?

Actually, I believe me being aromantic makes it impossible for me to truly empathize with how you feel about monogamous relationships. Because I am incapable of feeling romantic attraction, my gut reaction to any sort of boundaries about how much touching outside the relationship between romantic partners is that it makes no sense.

 

The reason I understand what @FictoVore. is saying is that she explained it as the attraction feeds off of their monogamy. While I personally am not like this, I will respect my friend’s boyfriend’s boundaries.

 

The whole reason I created this thread was because it was really hard for me to accept that we would no longer be hugging. @FictoVore. gave an excellent explanation and a very good reason to respect romantic monogamous people.

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1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

We can't know without actually talking to him about it :o

Exactly. That’s why I really wish people would stop suggested my friend’s boyfriend is being a controlling jerk. I don’t know him at all, so I am not going to jump to that conclusion just so I can have someone to blame for not getting to hug.

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Telecaster68

So are you talking about brief hugs (2 secs), longer ones (10 secs), or full on cuddling on the sofa for hours  kind of stuff? 

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30 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

with 'long hugs' what did you mean exactly?

Maybe like 10-20 second hugs or leaning on her shoulder for 5 minutes. While I personally don’t have a problem with this, I can understand how this could be problematic for her boyfriend since it is more than just a quick “nice-to-see-you” hug.

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51 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

I've met a lot of people who aren't comfortable with their partner having 'long hugs' (as in, snuggles) with people of the gender that matches their sexual orientation, especially if the other person is single.

Long hug does not equal snuggle as far as I am aware

 

53 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Edit: wait wait, Yata, your profile says you're grey-aromantic. You're not even really coming at this from the same page as I am then? Every aromantic-identifying person I've met on AVEN has always had trouble understanding these concepts to begin with at least, and there have been many romantic people who have tried to explain this stuff to aromantics on AVEN over the years (I've been part of many of these convo since I joined AVEN in 2013). Not all romantic people feel that way, obviously, like Tele seems to be saying he'd be fine with his wife having any intimacy that isn't sexual? But there are even romantic people who are uncomfortable with their partner having intimate conversations with other people and would feel cheated on as a result of them sharing that emotional intimacy with someone else, even if no physical contact happened. It's not about jealousy or control though, it's just the way romantic emotions work and some people attach greater intimacy to some acts than to others. If you see snuggling (long hugs) as a very intimate and private act (which many people do, I actually haven't met many men especially who are into snuggling people they aren't romantically or sexually involved with) then it's understandable why you would be uncomfortable with the idea of your partner doing that with other people.

I'm trying to understand romance as much as I can, for my romantic partner. That's partly why I'm here on AVEN.

I tend to observe people, filter data through my "bulsh...bovine feces meter" and then attempt to apply it.

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From Beaver Boy's responses to above posts, it sounds like he understands that since his friends has said they shouldn't hug anymore, the hugs will stop.  It's her decision, since she was the hugging "partner".  It also sounds like whether the boyfriend is controlling or not has nothing to do with this issue, since it's Beaver Boy's friends is the one deciding about the hugs.   Why try to psychologize the boyfriend?  That's an entirely different relationship.    

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banana monkey

Ok, so bearing in mind we cannot know the full story without speaking to the people involved and I do understand where the boundaries of the boyfriend may come from. I cant understand why some people think his point of view isnt a little wrong. I say this because whilst I fully accept this is his opinion/value, the OP seems to imply that their friend actually wants to cuddle with them and it is her boyfriend that is stopping her, rather than it being because she is now in a relationship. Doesnt anyone see that as slightly unfair and an aspect of jealousy and control, even if they understand the boyfriends reasons. 

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42 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

I'm trying to understand romance as much as I can, for my romantic partner. That's partly why I'm here on AVEN.

Ah I see, that's a perfectly valid reason to try to argue with someone who actually IS fully romantic (and has had a fair few romantic relationships), who is trying to explain what desiring monogamous romantic intimacy (of all forms) feels like for some romantic people. That makes total sense now...

 

32 minutes ago, banana monkey said:

Doesnt anyone see that as slightly unfair and an aspect of jealousy and control, even if they understand the boyfriends reasons. 

It seems that that's ALL most people commenting in this thread are seeing, because they're jumping to conclusions based on very little info. Beaver Boy didn't say his friend was really upset/crying etc because she wanted to hug him but was too afraid to in case her boyfriend found out. Beaver Boy didn't say she'd only give him hugs when they're alone (so no boyfriend present to be upset). Beaver seems to be implying that she won't have long hugs with him now regardless of the situation, in which case she is making the autonomous choice not to give him 'long hugs' even if she's alone with Beaver so the boyfriend won't find out. Beaver also said:

 

Quote

. But then I feel guilty about telling them what they should be okay with. I don't get to decide what they're ok with - that's up to them. 

Which implies to me that it's a decision they have BOTH made and Beaver understands and respects that (even though it's sad for him that he won't get to have long hugs with his friend while she is in a relationship). He also said the the boyfriend doesn't know Beaver nor that Beaver is aromantic, so it doesn't sound to me like the girlfriend actually had a convo with the boyfriend where she said 'this is my aromantic friend can I hug him?' and the boyfriend specifically said 'no you can't!!' it more just sounds like she's aware it would make her boyfriend uncomfortable and is happy to make that sacrifice for him (and she may be just as uncomfortable with the idea of him having long hugs with other women).

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28 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Ah I see, that's a perfectly valid reason to try to argue with someone who actually IS fully romantic (and has had a fair few romantic relationships), who is trying to explain what desiring monogamous romantic intimacy (of all forms) feels like for some romantic people. That makes total sense now...

Understanding alloromantics is sometimes akin to learning an impossible programming language (:3 _ )=

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1 minute ago, Yatagarasu said:

Understanding alloromantics is sometimes akin to learning an impossible programming language (:3 _ )=

There used to be a very staunchly aromantic poly member of AVEN who was super vocal about his beliefs that monogamous romantic feelings were toxic and destructive etc. We debated it for like 6 months but eventually he understood where I was coming from and changed some of his opinions about romantic monogamous desire.. so it can happen even if it takes a while ^_^ 

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21 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

There used to be a very staunchly aromantic poly member of AVEN who was super vocal about his beliefs that monogamous romantic feelings were toxic and destructive etc. We debated it for like 6 months but eventually he understood where I was coming from and changed some of his opinions about romantic monogamous desire.. so it can happen even if it takes a while ^_^ 

As much as I struggle, I don't think it's toxic >.>"

I mean, unless taken to extremes, as in unhealthy jealousy or possessiveness.

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1 hour ago, banana monkey said:

OP seems to imply that their friend actually wants to cuddle with them and it is her boyfriend that is stopping her, rather than it being because she is now in a relationship. Doesnt anyone see that as slightly unfair and an aspect of jealousy and control, even if they understand the boyfriends reasons.

I'm actually not sure if my friend really wanted to hug me. I do know she's okay with it, and it seems to me like she would want to hug me only because I like it. Also, I do know that she herself does not want to cuddle me because of the romantic relationship. She was only fine with hugging (including the longer hugs).

 

On the surface, it did seem as though he was just being controlling, but when @FictoVore. explained how monogamous romantic relationships work for her, it made a lot of sense that maybe my friend's boyfriend wanted to "reserve" hugs for the romantic relationship, as that exclusivity actually feeds into his romantic attraction. I would not want to degrade his romantic relationship, and I can always find someone else to hug and cuddle.

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