Jump to content

Getting used to “they/them” pronouns


butterflydreams

Recommended Posts

butterflydreams

I want to be respectful, obviously, but I just find they/them to be so grammatically awkward and confusing when used as singular. Writing isn’t so bad, but I’m worried that in casual conversation I’m going to mess it up all the damn time. Plus, if I’m talking to someone about a person, and using they/them, invariably the person I’m talking to is going to be like, wtf? And then I have to have this whole conversation about what nonbinary is. Yeah, I’m just 1 and 1 on that one.

 

What do?

Link to post
Share on other sites
wonderflonium

I can relate to this. It's hard to undo the years of things we've been taught about how to reference people - I remember specifically being told that "they" should never be used for a singular person. I find now I tend to use they as much as possible. I use he/she if i know that's how someone identifies, but otherwise I use they as the norm. It's helped to ease a bit of worry that I'll mess up in casual conversation and risk hurting someone unintentionally.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

I want to be respectful, obviously, but I just find they/them to be so grammatically awkward and confusing when used as singular. Writing isn’t so bad, but I’m worried that in casual conversation I’m going to mess it up all the damn time. Plus, if I’m talking to someone about a person, and using they/them, invariably the person I’m talking to is going to be like, wtf? And then I have to have this whole conversation about what nonbinary is. Yeah, I’m just 1 and 1 on that one.

 

What do?

Fortunately I think it's something you'll very, very rarely ever have to deal with. But could you try using their name instead if you're thinking of someone you know specifically in person, like "Ben's going to pick up Ben's sister".. Wait no,that sounds just as bad, haha.

 

In the controversial gender opinions thread you started,some people were saying that they/them should become the default pronouns that we use in English regardless of what someone's gender is. Ah yes, it would be a great idea to make English even more clunky than it already is to accommodate the needs of a very, very small minority (even most trans people still identify as "he" or "she" depending on their preferred gender)!! I've never met anyone in person who I've had to use they/them pronouns for but it's definitely easier to type them, I agree with that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It can be very hard to get used to, I still find myself messing up on my own pronouns from time to time. But after a while it gets easier, as for when talking with other people about it, just try your best to explain it and just say you aren't an expert and odds are the person you are to won't ask a lot of questions because they will think you can't answer them and you can move on to the next conversation. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
butterflydreams
3 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Fortunately I think it's something you'll very, very rarely ever have to deal with. But could you try using their name instead if you're thinking of someone you know specifically in person, like "Ben's going to pick up Ben's sister".. Wait no,that sounds just as bad, haha

Well, I asked because it is something I’m actually dealing with right now. A new friend of mine is nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns, and I like them, and want to be respectful. 

 

I don’t think it’s right to make they/them the default pronouns we use because that’s just clunky. I get that there’s not really a good solution for nonbinary people, but I wish it was better than something so clunky.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

Well, I asked because it is something I’m actually dealing with right now. A new friend of mine is nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns, and I like them, and want to be respectful. 

 

I don’t think it’s right to make they/them the default pronouns we use because that’s just clunky. I get that there’s not really a good solution for nonbinary people, but I wish it was better than something so clunky.

I guess the only thing you can do is get used to using 'they/them' as I can't think of any other solution? "I like Ben's house, they're really good at decorating"  (as a random example) definitely sounds awkward but maybe if you kept trying to do that, you'd get used to it? I know with one friend of mine I used to talk to and game with on group call a lot I didn't actually know if she was agender or what for ages and didn't want to ask,so just completely avoided saying anything that involved 'he' or 'she' or whatever to avoid the issue. Like instead of saying "you silly woman!" I'd say "you silly person" then feel all awkward, lol,so awkward. This is one of the many reasons I just avoid people now, but yeah, it might just have to be something you keep forcing yourself to do it until it comes more naturally D:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am glad that we usually use the word "hen" here instead of de/dem which is translation of them /they.

Link to post
Share on other sites
butterflydreams

I mean, I don’t think it’s bad that we use gendered pronouns. There’s a reason for it, it’s helpful in determining which person you’re talking about. But I’m not really interested in debating the use of neutral pronouns here.

 

I’m more interested in how I can be respectful of my new friend and how I can quell confusion from friends when I talk about my friend to them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Alejandrogynous

I don't know if it's just where I live or what, but using they/them for individuals is pretty normal and wasn't discouraged even in school. It feels natural to me, especially when talking about someone whose gender you don't know, and I think people use it in this sense more than they realize. 

 

"Did the mailman stop by yet?"

 

"Yeah, I think they just left."

 

Or would people elsewhere actually say, "yeah, I think he or she just left"? Because to me that sounds waayyy clunkier, lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Alejandrogynous said:

Or would people elsewhere actually say, "yeah, I think he or she just left"? Because to me that sounds waayyy clunkier, lol.

I believe when you don't know the gender of the person you just go with the male form, since it's the "default". At least is like that in portuguese. It's not a rule, it's just the way people do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting used to something new is quite difficult. Mistakes can happen and it’s ok to make them but it might be good to tell your friend: “Hey, I really do respect you but i find it difficult to use they/them pronouns so please allow me some time to get used to your pronouns” i’m sure they will understand.

 

I dislike using the they/them pronouns myself because it sounds like i’m referring to myself in plural. He/she is far more easier because it feels more personal for me. I wouldn’t mind though if people would accidentally use they when talking about me as long as they are honest about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
butterflydreams

Should I feel like I’m outing my friend when I give an explanation of why I talk so strangely when referring to them? Like, I’m going to be talking about them to an old friend of mine tonight, and obviously it’s going to come up that I’m avoiding pronouns. I’ll have to explain.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if it works grammatically or if would be even more awkward for you but can you just use there name? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Galactic Turtle

I've come across two people who use they/them. If for some reason I happen to be talking about/referencing them to someone else I honestly always revert back to he/she because way deep down no matter how aware I am of their nonbinary identity, mentally I'll always perceive them as male or female. It's far less awkward and because they both aren't exactly in my friend group (one is a co-worker and another is a friend from a summer camp years back), I just don't find it necessary in relation to whatever conversation I might be having.

 

Face to face I tend to go by name but if the sentence seems fine with they/them I'll use it.

 

Probably not a popular method but that's just how it has played out in my life.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some time ago I was talking to someone I didn't know well, but wanted to talk to them about my friend (whose preferred pronouns were they/them), Yeah, it felt awkward. Because it's not something I'm used to doing. I think the only way to get past that is to get use to it by using it. There is really no reason why we can't use they/them as a singular pronoun in English. Language evolves, adapts, and people change it all the time.

 

I feel awkward with female pronouns for myself even when I am dressed "en femme". Using a different name for oneself or for someone one knows well by another name can feel awkward. Shopping in the "wrong department" can feel awkward. Change can be awkward. I think the only way to get over that is to keep it up until you do get used to it.

 

As far as explaining it to other people, I'd say that as often as not little or no explanation is really required. And the more natural it seems to you the less it will be questioned by other people. If you feel explanation is needed, I'd say that generally the simpler the better. For example, if someone asks say that's what your friend prefers. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is your friend out as nonbinary? I’d ask if they’re okay with it if someone gets confused about them being “they”.

 

40 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I don't know if it's just where I live or what, but using they/them for individuals is pretty normal and wasn't discouraged even in school. It feels natural to me, especially when talking about someone whose gender you don't know, and I think people use it in this sense more than they realize. 

 

"Did the mailman stop by yet?"

 

"Yeah, I think they just left."

 

Or would people elsewhere actually say, "yeah, I think he or she just left"? Because to me that sounds waayyy clunkier, lol.

Same. I have a family member who seems to really not refer to anyone as “they”, even when she doesn’t know the gender of someone. Literally it’s like every single time she talks about a professor of mine or a friend or whatever, she’d always assume the wrong gender. Always, even when she does try to switch it up a little.

Link to post
Share on other sites
butterflydreams
10 minutes ago, SkyWorld said:

Is your friend out as nonbinary? I’d ask if they’re okay with it if someone gets confused about them being “they”.

Well, they’re actually pretty quiet about it, in an “it’s not a big deal” kind of way. I think they’re out at work at least. But they just don’t make a big deal about it at all. They’ve been so respectful of my pronouns, I want to respect theirs...plus, I like them :blush: For anyone who’s following along, this is the same person who I’ve been on recent dates with.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if you do this yourself but I constantly have imaginary conversations with people in my head, lol. So the way I, personally, got used to they/them pronouns was imagining I was telling someone about random non-binary youtubers who I watch who use they/them pronouns and "telling stories" about those people in my head using they/them pronouns. After a while it got way easier and now I can say I'm fluent in using they/them. I used to think those pronouns sound clunky and awkward and that's why I didn't even want to use them myself but now that I'm use to it they don't sound awkward at all!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lucas Monteiro
33 minutes ago, daveb said:

 There is really no reason why we can't use they/them as a singular pronoun in English. Language evolves, adapts, and people change it all the time.

It may work for English, but to be honest it wouldn't work well with many languages. Or you would need a language with neutrality just like Turkish where pronouns for male and female doesn't exist and are just gender neutral. Just like you said, language evolves and adapts and maybe other languages become gender neutral in the future but for now in some languages far different from English, using 'they/them' wouldn't work well. Besides, using the right pronoun doesn't mean you would be more open or not to non-binary people, just look at Turkey and you will see.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#Turkish

Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't read the entire thread so this may already be mentioned, but there's ze that is also gender neutral and is a bit less clunky since grammatically it functions the same as he/she and so on, though of course you need to pick whether you want to bend it as zis or zers and so on which still implicates some kind of gendered form.

 

In Swedish we have "hen", "hens" for genitive and "henom" for the definitive article but I don't think this works in English but I suppose people are free to try. I prefer "they" in English though, because it just sounds the best to me. I know it's not grammatically correct, but grammar evolves over time anyway. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Janus the Fox

Had this issue earlier on, though feels natural to me to do.  I read any sentences with the his/her pronouns then just swap to they/them or referencing "them" as a "you" or "your".  Feels more natural and makes sense to me some reason.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lucas Monteiro said:

It may work for English, but to be honest it wouldn't work well with many languages. Or you would need a language with neutrality just like Turkish where pronouns for male and female doesn't exist and are just gender neutral. Just like you said, language evolves and adapts and maybe other languages become gender neutral in the future but for now in some languages far different from English, using 'they/them' wouldn't work well. Besides, using the right pronoun doesn't mean you would be more open or not to non-binary people, just look at Turkey and you will see.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#Turkish

I don't know much about other languages (sadly), so that's interesting to know. Still, any language can change if enough people take up the change. :)

 

2 hours ago, Entropic said:

I know it's not grammatically correct

That is actually not true. Singular they has been around for centuries. If you google "singular they" you can find lots of interesting info about it. The part that is new is using singular they to refer to someone who identifies as non-binary.

 

Personally I don't care for most of the neologisms, on a purely aesthetic level, in that most of them don't look like English words to me. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. I do believe that it would be a lot easier to adopt a single singular pronoun rather than a plethora of different ones.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also just fun fact. English singular “you” used to be plural only. It used to be “thou” was singular and “you” was plural.

 

If that changed then why can’t they/them?

 

Also I agree with trying to practice. I use they/them in reference to myself if I’m telling a story or something to someone. But for anyone else I really need to practice. I met a few non binary people at a college visit and they all use they/them. I keep budgering it up but with a little practice I got better. 

 

Also ask this friend if they’re okay with you explaining non-binnary or telling other people. I’ve given a few people in my life the permission to tell people I’m trans if they ask. (Like, I’ve asked these people to start using male pronouns and a couple of times they had to explain themselves. I told them they could tell others if that specific situation arose. And that they didn’t have to answer any questions and to just direct that person to me if that other person really wanted to know more.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Lucas Monteiro
7 hours ago, Entropic said:

I know it's not grammatically correct, but grammar evolves over time anyway. 

It is in fact grammatically correct, but just like @daveb said it's just that people started right now using 'they/them' to refer to non-binary people.

 

Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they or its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (or themself), as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as:

 

"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?" [1]

"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."[2]

"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."[2]

 

[1] Swan, Michael (2009). Practical English Usage (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-194-42098-3.

[2] Huddleston, Rodney; Pullum, Geoffrey (2002). The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-43146-8.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, daveb said:

Personally I don't care for most of the neologisms, on a purely aesthetic level, in that most of them don't look like English words to me. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. I do believe that it would be a lot easier to adopt a single singular pronoun rather than a plethora of different ones.

You word this way better than I ever could. I completely agree.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Alejandrogynous
23 hours ago, Astatine said:

I believe when you don't know the gender of the person you just go with the male form, since it's the "default". At least is like that in portuguese. It's not a rule, it's just the way people do it.

That's kind of sexist, though, isn't it? At least that's how it would seem in English, assuming everyone is a man. Then again, English isn't gendered the same way as some other languages like French/Spanish/Portuguese? are so maybe the connotations aren't the same.

Link to post
Share on other sites
anisotrophic
23 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

Should I feel like I’m outing my friend when I give an explanation of why I talk so strangely when referring to them? Like, I’m going to be talking about them to an old friend of mine tonight, and obviously it’s going to come up that I’m avoiding pronouns. I’ll have to explain.

Aw, that's hard. I have an NB friend/colleague that's being suuuuper gradual about it. I'm like "am I outing them? is that ok?"

 

I'm noticing myself using "they" in place of gendered pronouns in a lot of other places. It's starting to feel pretty natural. Language is beautiful in how it shifts and adapts. Down with prescriptivism.

Link to post
Share on other sites
InfiniteNull
On 3/16/2018 at 3:05 PM, butterflydreams said:

I mean, I don’t think it’s bad that we use gendered pronouns. There’s a reason for it, it’s helpful in determining which person you’re talking about. But I’m not really interested in debating the use of neutral pronouns here.

 

I’m more interested in how I can be respectful of my new friend and how I can quell confusion from friends when I talk about my friend to them.

 

@butterflydreams if you're already settled on the debate and determined to be supportive of your friend (thank you for being an NB ally) then probably you just have to get used to it primarily. It's sort of like admitting to not being homophobic in the 80s or 90s... like people generally were already starting to get over homophobia but weren't really comfortable admitting it to others yet. Now people will casually talk about how they went to a Steve and Eric's wedding like it's nothing (sometimes). They might have had to add a caveat before that they weren't personally gay, they just wanted to support their friend. Now all of that is implied because society has gotten used to it. 

 

I think the same might be the case here. In order to really get used to they/them pronouns you have to decide that you're willing to share in our awkwardness for a while as the world gets used to us. Calling us "they/them" with confidence even if you're friends give you funny looks when you do it or ask questions makes you an important part of our journey. If they do ask questions share how your friend is a normal person regardless of their pronouns. 

 

I personally feel super grateful to know that there are people like you trying to figure out how to be supportive like this, especially with a couple of the posts above sort of chipping away at this very inclusive thought that you have  ♥ I dunno if the NB world is quite cheering on this kind of behavior enough yet. I can't speak for everyone but I know it makes me happy :) thank you!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2018 at 1:36 AM, daveb said:

I don't know much about other languages (sadly), so that's interesting to know. Still, any language can change if enough people take up the change. :)

 

That is actually not true. Singular they has been around for centuries. If you google "singular they" you can find lots of interesting info about it. The part that is new is using singular they to refer to someone who identifies as non-binary.

 

Personally I don't care for most of the neologisms, on a purely aesthetic level, in that most of them don't look like English words to me. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. I do believe that it would be a lot easier to adopt a single singular pronoun rather than a plethora of different ones.

Then let me clarify: it's not grammatically correct to use singular they with how Facebook introduced it. I didn't say you can't use singular they, but I understand why some people experience it to be clunky. 

 

Consider this:

They is happy. 

 

That's incorrect use of they if we are referring to a singular person as implicated by the is, but using are is incorrect because that'd suggest several people because of the word they. 

 

I personally don't use they in this particular fashion and I'd use are instead over is despite knowing it would normally refer to a plural situation, but just to clearly demonstrate why it's a problem. 

 

They are happy would not be considered singular by anyone decently well-read in the English language until about now, when it would refer to one person of undefined gender. I don't limit this use to non-binary folks. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2018 at 7:01 AM, Lucas Monteiro said:

It is in fact grammatically correct, but just like @daveb said it's just that people started right now using 'they/them' to refer to non-binary people.

 

Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they or its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (or themself), as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as:

 

"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?" [1]

"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."[2]

"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."[2]

 

[1] Swan, Michael (2009). Practical English Usage (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-194-42098-3.

[2] Huddleston, Rodney; Pullum, Geoffrey (2002). The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-43146-8.

 

See my clarification on what I meant. I was not speaking of the use of they in phrases like these when I wrote it's not grammatically correct, but rather phrases like the ones I provided. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...