Why misgendering is not transphobic

[binary suns]

Disclaimer: this is processing I've done to curb some of my dysphoria; and to process, accept, and understand my own gender; as well as understand why other people are different from me and still valid people. 

 

 

 

 

first...

 

It is actually sexism - there has been a long history of men being mocked as being girls in order to motivate them to do sports. Those men were cis men.

 

Gender is something that is important to all humans of all varieties - well, not universally, there are in fact some humans who don't really understand the meaning gender has for others. But does it matter for your choice of friends? does it matter for your sexual attraction? does it matter for what role models you tend to like? it doesn't just have to matter for your own self-identification in order for gender to matter for you.

 

As such, insulting gender in any way - whether that way is against a trans nb or cis person, or not against any individual at all - is sexist first and foremost. 

 

 

 

 

and also... 

 

it in and of itself is useful for good.

 

1. When I say to myself, "I am not a man, I am a woman!" This necessarily requires misgendering to be said. I had to have previously thought that I was a man, before I could realize I wasn't. It may have only been a hypothesis that I disproved, but it was still a misgendering hypothesis. 
2. Someone glancing at a person and gendering them is important for recognition and social interaction. if a mistake happens, it is simply a mistake. 
3. If someone asks me, "wait, but I see you as a man, how are you not one?" this is curiosity. interest. feel free to call it nosey  (and feel free to say you aren't comfortable responding!) But it is a chance to express myself, and a chance to educate someone interested in learning!
4. I don't know about every woman, but I could not identify myself as a woman if I did not look at other women as a role model. Ironically, this does in fact include people I didn't know were actually men, because at that time in their life they presented as a woman. Sorry to all those strangers  know that your presentation was meaningful in a positive way for someone, thanks, and I hope you found the freedom you deserve!
5. Crossdressing
6. Discussion. Taking the time to discuss the ins-and-outs of what being transgender is like, will sometimes involve uncomfortable questions that are phrased in ways that imply a person's gender is not what they claim. It is not intended to state they can't be that gender - it is simply framing a question in the way that they understand it, so that advice on how to dismantle or expand their understanding can be found. "Hey friends, I can't shake the idea that because I have a d***, I am male! Please help me to understand how this can be false?? I'm struggling to accept myself!"
7. Ranting, ranting, ranting ranting! Don't matter if I'm ranting about my own experience, or ranting about something I don't understand. Ranting in and of itself is sorting out confusing feelings that don't make sense. I know what I'm saying ain't the full truth, but if I repressed and didn't say it - I'd just dwell on it for longer. Ranting is a method of finding better understanding! 
8. Biological purposes - aka, a person's sex. It is gendering terminology. If it don't match my gender identity - that's misgendering. But there are many ways it's an important thing to name anyway. 
9. Medical needs - I have some risks of medical issues because of the male manifestation of my body. I am not sure what they are but my doc knows. 
10. Security screening - men have an object in their pants, women have extra mass on their chest. We actually don't want to ignore those dark areas in our tech to detect hidden obects - but we have to to save time and a headache. the fact we ignore it creates a way in which people can hide some objects in those regions. 
11. Protecting distrust - there is a risk that people could abuse too much leniency in gender identity to do crime of certain kinds, or at the least disrupt the peace. Sometimes a person or group might be uncomfortable around a stranger (or even friend) who reads male to them, because of sensitivity to their difficult past. If they asked me not to comfort them because I read male to them, this is a necessary protection they need for their own safety... and I want to respect that.
12. Did I mention attraction yet?  Some people are attracted based on the physical. ...uh, this one is complex, I really should make a separate topic for it. 

 

 

 

 

to conclude... 

 

Sometimes a bully will use a book to torment a person. This don't make the book into the devil. The book is usually in fact, tool of good. This is also true of gendering language. There are ways in which gendering me as male are important and needed. I am still a woman in my identity, but without ill-intent to harm, misgendering is not at all transphobic - but instead, essential to trans acceptance. When misgendering is used as a weapon against me, the issue is not their gendering - it is their overall behavior.

 

A bully will try to use the tool that hurts me most. Bullies are bullies. Let's not let bullies destroy the good in gender discussions. 

 

[Holly Skye]

I think there's a difference between an honest mistake due to the binary system and deliberate misgendering in the full knowledge, or with good reason to take account of the possibility of, someone's identity as a trans person.  Many of your points are based on the former but fail to take account of the latter.  Deliberate misgendering tends to be motivated by disapproval, judgement, and yes, outright transphobia rather than simply not knowing any better.

[Entropic]

1 hour ago, float on said:

It is actually sexism - there has been a long history of men being mocked as being girls in order to motivate them to do sports. Those men were cis men.

 

I utterly cannot buy this argument especially in how you erase the existence of transmen. Not all trans folks are self-identified females and transmasculine individuals are as misgendered as transfeminine individuals are. To reduce this to sexism is, in some ways therefore quite transphobic by itself. This is why TERFs are considered transphobes. 

 

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Gender is something that is important to all humans of all varieties - well, not universally, there are in fact some humans who don't really understand the meaning gender has for others. But does it matter for your choice of friends? does it matter for your sexual attraction? does it matter for what role models you tend to like? it doesn't just have to matter for your own self-identification in order for gender to matter for you.

 

As such, insulting gender in any way - whether that way is against a trans nb or cis person, or not against any individual at all - is sexist first and foremost. 

 

 

 

 

I would again argue that this is a poorly constructed argument part because of what I already wrote, but also because you reduce gender identity to an issue of gender roles which sexism deals with, not gender identities, and while there is a connection between gender roles and gender identities, they are not one and the same and deal with very different issues. It is for example sexism when a woman is sexually harassed by virtue of being socially read as a woman regardless whether she herself identifies as a woman, but it is an issue of identity when female-identifying individual is not acknowledged as identifying as female by her environment to refer to her as male instead. 

 

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When I say to myself, "I am not a man, I am a woman!" This necessarily requires misgendering to be said. I had to have previously thought that I was a man, before I could realize I wasn't. It may have only been a hypothesis that I disproved, but it was still a misgendering hypothesis. 

I understand why you write this, but I'd argue this still builds on an a false idea of language construction and use, because it begs the question what a man and a woman is. To many trans folks you are not a man or a woman just because this is how you were assigned at birth or that is how you chose to present yourself throughout most of your life up to this particular point in time since maleness or femaleness is not just something linked to how you externally present yourself, but it's also related to an inner feeling which cannot a) be quantified and b) be perceived by an outsider. You either feel innately male or female and this is what motivates you to pursue a transition, not because you want to change the way you present yourself. This is also why a lot of terminology surrounding the transition have changed from example "sexual reassignment surgery (SRS)" to "gender confirmation surgery (GCS)", because the latter implies that surgery is intended to align the body to better match the transperson's idea of how they are like as opposed to trying to match the body to fit an existing gendered ideal. 
 

So really, this simply begs the question whether an inner or an outer presentation of who we are should dictate our gendered selves, but if you are a man now and present as such, how do you then know that you are a woman in the first place? And similarly, do you then truly become a woman just because you present as such, and if so, why? What  does it mean to present ourselves as men and women in the first place, and can one really truly ever fully present themselves as men and women? 

 

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Someone glancing at a person and gendering them is important for recognition and social interaction. if a mistake happens, it is simply a mistake. 

Sure, but not always, and you know this. When we call out transphobes for being transphobes, we aren't attacking the normal folks making a simple mistake which happens to everyone, even cispeople, but we are attacking those who clearly have a malicious intent of disregarding our self-identities. 

 

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If someone asks me, "wait, but I see you as a man, how are you not one?" this is curiosity. interest. feel free to call it nosey  (and feel free to say you aren't comfortable responding!) But it is a chance to express myself, and a chance to educate someone interested in learning!

I'm sorry, but in the majority of cases, I would say no. I understand you are primarily trying to convince yourself, not others, but I would advice against expressing these kinds of sentiments as a way to convince other trans folks on a public forum that when other people ask them "why are you not X gender?" is never asked with the intent to hurt you. When people question your gender identity, it often is based off an intent to hurt, and while of course social context matters, I would never indulge such people on the internet as it is a surefire way to invite trolling. Don't set yourself up in a vulnerable position when you are already vulnerable. You are worth more than that. 

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I don't know about every woman, but I could not identify myself as a woman if I did not look at other women as a role model. Ironically, this does in fact include people I didn't know were actually men, because at that time in their life they presented as a woman. Sorry to all those strangers  know that your presentation was meaningful in a positive way for someone, thanks, and I hope you found the freedom you deserve!

 

I am unsure how finding good role models for your gender identity is related to the rest of the points you're trying to make; I don't have an explicit role model because I'm Asian so I just had to construct my own gender identity from scratch which is heavily inspired by Asian male aesthetics, but with or without a role model, I am who I am anyway. It did not change how I feel about myself. If you feel that you could not identify as a woman unless you looked at other women as role models it may say something about you, however, but what that says is for you to figure out, if so. 

 

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Crossdressing

Again, I have no idea what your point in relation to crossdressing is. I have a friend who is a crossdresser and he wants to be as recognized and acknowledged for his gender identity when he is crossdressing as any other trans person would be. I also happened to participate in the BDSM scene and I know a bunch of crossdressers from my local community as well, and again it'd be incredibly inconsiderate and rude if I did not acknowledge any of them, while they were crossdressing, as women at the time. In the end, it does not matter why or how often you present yourself as X no matter how unconvincing it is, only that you do and when you do, people have to respect it. 

 

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Discussion. Taking the time to discuss the ins-and-outs of what being transgender is like, will sometimes involve uncomfortable questions that are phrased in ways that imply a person's gender is not what they claim. It is not intended to state they can't be that gender - it is simply framing a question in the way that they understand it, so that advice on how to dismantle or expand their understanding can be found. "Hey friends, I can't shake the idea that because I have a d***, I am male! Please help me to understand how this can be false?? I'm struggling to accept myself!"

Wanting to discuss a subject in other to learn about oneself and others and in that process accidentally misgender other people is very different from a) doing it out of willful ignorance as in they are corrected but do not care or b) doing it out of malicious intent so again they know, but do not care and even get off the idea of knowing that you find it hurtful. Transphobia is not when a person lacks the knowledge how to best approach a subject and in the process manage to trample over other people's toes, but transphobia is when they are corrected and do not care that they are trampling on toes and even enjoy the pain it is causing others when so doing. 

 

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Ranting, ranting, ranting ranting! Don't matter if I'm ranting about my own experience, or ranting about something I don't understand. Ranting in and of itself is sorting out confusing feelings that don't make sense. I know what I'm saying ain't the full truth, but if I repressed and didn't say it - I'd just dwell on it for longer. Ranting is a method of finding better understanding! 

 

I have no idea what your point is, especially in relation to transphobia and how misgender people is not transphobic. 

 

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Biological purposes - aka, a person's sex. It is gendering terminology. If it don't match my gender identity - that's misgendering. But there are many ways it's an important thing to name anyway. 

 

There is no such thing as a "biological purpose" and biological sex is more complicated than what people have between their legs. Yes, biological sex relies on the binary in order to identify people, but as we learn more about how human anatomy and biology works, especially in relation to biological sex, we also realize how the subject is much more complicated than simply dividing half of the population into an arbitrary line of "male" and "female" and even coercively trying to correct those that may not decidedly fall into one camp or the other. 

 

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Medical needs - I have some risks of medical issues because of the male manifestation of my body. I am not sure what they are but my doc knows. 

 

I fail to see how you recognizing you have male anatomy invalidates the fact that you are also female-identifying and that it would be correct of a doctor to refer you with male pronouns over female ones. That your body is male is part a distinct entity from how you identify yourself. The body is not a static vessel that defines who you are, but the body, just like the self, is at least in part malleable and able to be transformed in a wide variety of ways where really only human imagination is the limit to what we can do to ourselves and our bodies. When you choose to get a tattoo or pierce yourself, you are modifying your body's functions and its appearance, and makeup is one of the oldest body modifications in the world when it comes to changing the way we present our bodies to others. Our body, too, even as we age, goes through several changes where it modifies itself. Our body is not something set in stone and once set is not something changeable, but it is very much something we can construct and mold part based to our own wishes. If we couldn't, weight loss would be a pointless endeavor, and this is a mechanism which is it built into the very core mechanism of our bodies, that is, human metabolism and how it is related to our endocrine system. 

 

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Security screening - men have an object in their pants, women have extra mass on their chest. We actually don't want to ignore those dark areas in our tech to detect hidden obects - but we have to to save time and a headache. the fact we ignore it creates a way in which people can hide some objects in those regions. 

 

I do not again appreciate that you completely ignore the fact that in the same vein do transmen lack something in their pants while crossing a security screening and may instead have additional protrusions on their chest that may seem suspicious at first glance. 

 

Luckily I do believe that airport security is becoming increasingly up to date all over the world in how to better accompany traveling trans individuals so I really do not see why you even bring up this as a relevant point; yes, it is an issue but no, I do not believe it will be an issue forever. That the security services do their jobs is simply something we have to learn to accept, but it does not mean that we should tolerate intolerance while they do it. 

 

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Protecting distrust - there is a risk that people could abuse too much leniency in gender identity to do crime of certain kinds, or at the least disrupt the peace. Sometimes a person or group might be uncomfortable around a stranger (or even friend) who reads male to them, because of sensitivity to their difficult past. If they asked me not to comfort them because I read male to them, this is a necessary protection they need for their own safety... and I want to respect that.

Sure, but to reverse the same question - is it safe just because I happened to once have been identifying as female or would currently look female to an outsider? Of course not. We cannot align threats of crime arbitrarily based on people's presentations since gendered correlations to crime are related to the identification with specific gender roles; in other words, transmen are far more likely to be perpetrators of crime than transwomen are, simply because what makes men as a whole more likely to be perpetrators of crime is the underlying connection between masculinity and the right to use physical force. Just because a transman may lack a dick he is not unable to rape another woman even if he himself was once raised as one, and this is something which must be acknowledged. His biological gender is not the main determining factor when considering his risk to commit crimes, but his gender identity is. 

 

That people then can make mental associations based on someone's presentation which is linked to trauma I understand even if they rationally know that the emotional reaction is false, but this is again not the same as saying that someone who looks male despite identifying otherwise is male. 

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Did I mention attraction yet?  Some people are attracted based on the physical. ...uh, this one is complex, I really should make a separate topic for it. 

 

You are on a forum for people identifying on the ace spectrum and therefore I honestly believe you'll find little support when it comes to this point of view here, honestly. Like sure, some people only like dick or vagina and that is their pejorative, but that is again not an excuse to misgender people or to themselves act like dicks to transfolks. 

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Sometimes a bully will use a book to torment a person. This don't make the book into the devil. The book is usually in fact, tool of good. This is also true of gendering language. There are ways in which gendering me as male are important and needed. I am still a woman in my identity, but without ill-intent to harm, misgendering is not at all transphobic - but instead, essential to trans acceptance. When misgendering is used as a weapon against me, the issue is not their gendering - it is their overall behavior.

 

A bully will try to use the tool that hurts me most. Bullies are bullies. Let's not let bullies destroy the good in gender discussions. 

 

If you agree with that the intent matters, then I completely fail to understand why you even made this thread. Honest question, especially since I find most of the content expressed in here quite questionable and I can see many a transfolk get quite upset over the opinions that you express. They are, by and large, very much in line with TERFs and I think most people can agree on that TERFs and related ideologies are not a good foundation to build a healthy view of transfolks on. 

[Holly Skye]

@Entropic, that's an excellent response.  I'd also go further to say that float on's point 11 is uncomfortably close to the transphobic points of view rampant in the bathroom debate.

[Sally]

4 hours ago, float on said:

It is actually sexism - there has been a long history of men being mocked as being girls in order to motivate them to do sports. Those men were cis men.

 

There has also been a long history of men being mocked as being girls in order to shame them to do sports.  Those men were gay men.   It is not always just sexism.  

[daveb]

2 hours ago, Sally said:

There has also been a long history of men being mocked as being girls in order to shame them to do sports.  Those men were gay men.   It is not always just sexism.  

Or men who just weren't interested in sports. Speaking from personal experience.  

[InfiniteNull]

Another interesting post by float... 

 

This one is a little tougher for me. I agree with the concept, misgendering isn't always transphobic... although it OFTEN is. 

I think there are times when a human is misgendered out of pure mistake (including cisgender people)... that's OK, and we should generally just provide gentle correction in those cases. 

 

I think many of your points about bilogy are not so much misgendering, as they are acknowledging a difference in anatomy. That is, rather than thinking of TSA as assessing a penis-having trans woman as a "man" while she goes through the scanner... she should simply be assessed as a human with a penis... her gender doesn't matter boy or girl, simply the capability to see if she has weapons or bombs. A penis wont hide a bomb in one of those scanners btw... it recognizes organic material very different than synthetic materials. 

Same goes with a doctor. The doctor may simply want to be aware that the patient has certain risk factors of a person with xy chromozomes, or xx, or xxy, or all the other variations. Not "this is a man" or "this is a woman"... 

 

That's not to say that this happens today, it's more that as society progresses and gets used to some of these ideas it might be easier to avoid misgendering folx. Then again, who knows if we'll ever get there. There were times that I thought gay people wouldn't be able to get married too though... 

 

I don't think you're point of view is transphobic as a couple of the posts above imply. I think you're learning on your own journey and I hope you keep going and thinking critically about these things. Keep trying to open your mind even further, because I can tell that's definitely what you're trying to do here  great work!

[vmdraco]

13 hours ago, Entropic said:

transmen are far more likely to be perpetrators of crime than transwomen are, simply because what makes men as a whole more likely to be perpetrators of crime is the underlying connection between masculinity and the right to use physical force. Just because a transman may lack a dick he is not unable to rape another woman even if he himself was once raised as one, and this is something which must be acknowledged. His biological gender is not the main determining factor when considering his risk to commit crimes, but his gender identity is. 

 

Trans men were raised as women, how would they perpetuate crime based on gender identity when they're entire lives were constructed for the opposite gender?  You can reject your gender at birth all you like, but I highly doubt that you can erase your upbringing.  Unless you mean a trans man going on testosterone, where he's most likely going to take on more masculine traits because of the appropriate hormones?  I know my friends who are taking them say that they can't cry, and are more likely to yell or get angry instead.  You don't see them robbing banks or forcing people to have sex with them.  

 

Being raised as a girl does not offer you the same experiences as a cisgender man.  That's insinuating that only men commit crime simply because they're men, which is quite false.  Women do commit crimes, but in ways that are subtler and as a result aren't as well documented.  It's easy to document a man that up and stabbed someone with the intention for a one-hit-kill, only for that person to live and testify, than a woman who worked as a nurse, and killed her patients for fun by adding a cocktail of poisons to the anesthesia. 

 

I see what you're trying to say here, because of how the sexes are raised and told to behave, but even so that does not mean that men = violent criminals, that's just silly.  Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to insinuate here?

[Entropic]

12 hours ago, Hallyhats said:

@Entropic, that's an excellent response.  I'd also go further to say that float on's point 11 is uncomfortably close to the transphobic points of view rampant in the bathroom debate.

Yeah, though there is no actual basis for such beliefs. 

[Entropic]

1 hour ago, vmdraco said:

Trans men were raised as women, how would they perpetuate crime based on gender identity when they're entire lives were constructed for the opposite gender? 

What I already wrote is there: transmen identify as men first, not women. Transmen are therefore also more adopt masculine gender roles and masculinity perpetuates a notion of it being acceptable to use force, not femininity.* Which is to say, of course you could make the assumption that transmen should know better by virtue of having been assigned female at birth, but that it not something which should be assumed. What matters would be factors such as one's holding environment, personal beliefs and social space. 

*This point is only relevant to binary identified transmen, and I'm only talking about binary identities, here. I don't think there's any real statistical study on non-binary folks and rates of crime. 

 

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You can reject your gender at birth all you like, but I highly doubt that you can erase your upbringing.  Unless you mean a trans man going on testosterone, where he's most likely going to take on more masculine traits because of the appropriate hormones?  I know my friends who are taking them say that they can't cry, and are more likely to yell or get angry instead.  You don't see them robbing banks or forcing people to have sex with them.  

You assume everyone had decent upbringings and were instilled a healthy set of values when making these claims; I don't. I don't assume that there is anything relevant in relation to the possibility of crime than gender, because if we involve other factors it becomes too complex to say that it is just an issue of gender identity. It is however an issue that transmen are often forgotten or ignored to be perpetrators of crime just because they were raised as women, and if we're going to talk about sexism, now that is a sexist attitude to hold, and not just that, but a dangerous one.

 

Testosterone is an irrelevant factor with regards to the claims being made. 

 

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Being raised as a girl does not offer you the same experiences as a cisgender man.  That's insinuating that only men commit crime simply because they're men, which is quite false.  Women do commit crimes, but in ways that are subtler and as a result aren't as well documented.  It's easy to document a man that up and stabbed someone with the intention for a one-hit-kill, only for that person to live and testify, than a woman who worked as a nurse, and killed her patients for fun by adding a cocktail of poisons to the anesthesia. 

 

I didn't though, but I simply point out that there are certain factors that are inherent to masculinity and male gender roles that validate the use of violence which is a big reason why men more often are not just victims of violent crime but also utilize violence against others. I'm talking about violence and violent crime because men are statistically over-represented in terms of crime and violent crime in general. I don't know whether there is a statistical correlation between gender and the example of the nurse that you brought up, but why are you now making gendered assumptions not necessarily based on statistical correlation but based on common perception? I am unsure how common such crime is in general when we look at crim as a whole, and such crime is most likely not related to gender in itself anyway, outside the fact that nurses are more likely to be women than men. But I fail to see how the crime you mention would be more likely to be validated by a specific gender role. 

 

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I see what you're trying to say here, because of how the sexes are raised and told to behave, but even so that does not mean that men = violent criminals, that's just silly.  Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to insinuate here?

That's not what I'm saying at all. How you were raised is irrelevant to how you endorse certain gendered stereotypes or not, because while upbringing can be a relevant factor to consider, it is, especially when we talk about trans people, it is clearly not the determining factor. I'm also not saying that being a man equals being a violent criminal, insofar that I'm saying that statistically speaking, men are more likely to be perpetrators of violent crime, and one reason why is because how violence is validated by masculine gender roles. 

 

I'd ask you to pay closer attention to my actual use of language and how I'm not making definitive claims as much as I am talking in terms of potentials. 

[daveb]

I disagree that men are taught that violence is an acceptable and valid way to deal with the world.

[Entropic]

10 minutes ago, daveb said:

I disagree that men are taught that violence is an acceptable and valid way to deal with the world.

Statistical research on the subject disagrees with you. All men? No. But as a part of masculinity ideals? Yes, definitely. It's constantly perpetuated and I could go more deeply into this, but just briefly consider the fact why it's a big deal when women are superheroes but no one questions why men are, or no one questions when men use violence but they question when women do and the list goes on. 

 

 

[daveb]

7 minutes ago, Entropic said:

Statistical research on the subject disagrees with you. All men? No. But as a part of masculinity ideals? Yes, definitely. It's constantly perpetuated and I could go more deeply into this, but just briefly consider the fact why it's a big deal when women are superheroes but no one questions why men are, or no one questions when men use violence but they question when women do and the list goes on. 

 

 

I don't know where you're getting all of that, but those are gross over-generalizations. Part of "masculinity ideals"? Um, no. Part of "toxic masculinity"? Yes. But that's not the same thing. It's a pretty twisted idea of what masculinity is.

 

Also, I'm not sure what it has to do with the OP, so I will stop.

[Entropic]

Just to provide some quick google searches on the subject to support my point though my original sources are a part of gender and masculinity studies that I don't have off-hand right now:

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-relationship-between-gender-and-violence-3026201

 

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Pascoe summarizes this heterosexualized way of “doing” gender: “masculinity is understood in this setting as a form of dominance usually expressed through sexualized discourses." She refers to the collection of these behaviors as “compulsive heterosexuality,” which is the compulsive need to demonstrate one’s heterosexuality in order to establish a masculine identity.

What this means, then, is that masculinity in our society is fundamentally premised on the ability of a male to dominate females. If a male fails to demonstrate this relationship to females, he fails to achieve what is considered a normative, and preferred masculine identity. 

 

 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042815050909

 

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The relationship between masculinity and violence is examined in this paper. Masculinity is defined by key characteristics such as a willingness to take risks, having self-reliance, possessing a strong personality, exhibiting leadership abilities, defending ones self-beliefs and acting rationally. To be a real man, an individual must be seen being ambitious, dominant, self-reliant, competitive, independent, assertive and aggressive. Most of the characteristics of masculinity mentioned here are often associated with a culture of violence which is male dominated. The data was drawn from a survey administered to college students in a Turkish University by the authors. The results of this research confirmed that sex, masculinity and violence are very closely related.

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2433&context=etd

 

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As expected, the respondent‟s masculinity score was a statistically significant predictor of acceptance of violence across both Models 1 and 2.

Though, really, it's almost a bit silly to sit and cite random google sources because the sociological research is in agreement on this; masculinity and masculine gender roles (and do mind; not all, but the stereotype or archetypal ones) have an inherent bias towards allowing the use of violence against other individuals. 

 

We don't need to think it's right to do so, but it is a statistical fact that it is so. 

[Entropic]

36 minutes ago, daveb said:

I don't know where you're getting all of that, but those are gross over-generalizations. Part of "masculinity ideals"? Um, no. Part of "toxic masculinity"? Yes. But that's not the same thing. It's a pretty twisted idea of what masculinity is.

 

Also, I'm not sure what it has to do with the OP, so I will stop.

Trying to reframe "masculinity ideals" into "toxic" masculinity" is really just a way of saying that just because there are positive aspects of masculinity, we should deny that the negative aspects are there as well because that's not really masculinity, but something else. I can't agree with that, primarily because I do not think there is one way to be masculine. 

 

However, for the sake of argument, I'm talking about the normative view of masculinity and its ideals which would for example be to be decisive/action-oriented, confident, aggressive and so on, and I can't agree with you that it's good to deny these attributes and their connection to violence. They don't have to be, but as the articles/studied I linked you show, they  very often go hand in hand, and the more strongly people identify with these, the more likely people are to manifest them in insecure ways which more often than not, results in violence. 

 

Again, we don't have to agree with or think that's cool because it's not, I am big on trying to make men realize the importance of staying emotionally connected as a part of personal maturation and development, but to entirely deny that this is the case is really trying to paint reality into something it's quite not, and I can't agree with that. 

[Entropic]

In general, all I am trying to say is, just because transmen were raised as women it doesn't mean they cannot be enablers of violence, can we agree on that? Because being trans does not mean you cannot be a violent perpetrator, and that's all I'm trying to say, and it's important that we acknowledge this fact because it makes us understand that some individuals are not exempt from being violent just because they are supposed to have had experiences that should support the contrary. 

 

I am not saying this because I want to demonize transpeople, but I am saying this because it is a part of reality to understand that there will be shitty people regardless of what social group we think they belong to, but some groups are also unfortunately more likely to be shittier than others, and while perhaps trans is a group that would theoretically speaking make a person less shitty (there's no research on that, afaik), identifying as a man and endorsing normative masculine gender ideals does increase the likelihood of being shitty anyway. 

 

EDIT

I did not see the edit, but whatever. This is my view on the subject, and I say that as a transgender man. 

[Guest]

Purposefully misgendering (misgendering with the knowledge person involved doesn’t appriciate it) is transphobia, accidental misgendering (misgendering without any knowledge on the person involved) isn’t transphobia. 

 

I.e: “Oh, I didn’t know you are a he, I’ll call you he from now on” = totally ok.

 “I refuse to call you he because you’re obviously NOT a he so i’ll call you she instead.” = not ok