This is Ironic....

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

I would seriously recommend learning to focus on what you admire about her and enjoy having in your life.

I do. My whining is reserved exclusively for AVEN. That kind of advice does feel rather like saying to a one-legged man 'but think how good your other leg is...' I see the point, but it's rather dismissive when you're on the receiving end.

 

2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

. Essentially, you are left with no shoulder to rest your head on when you need it, because you're tasked with being the superhero - by yourself.

That's pretty much what has happened, and part of the previously mentioned shit I'm dealing with. However, me not being a superhero at this point involves leaving someone with a chronic degenerative immune condition, and two parents and a best friend with inoperable cancer. The lack of intimacy started way before that situation though, so they're not the cause of it.

[RAZS]

I totally hear what you're saying.  Been 4 years since my gf came anywhere near me.  If she asked now I would be forced to decline.  I have forced myself to stop looking at and thinking of her in that way.  Just wouldn't work

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

 

That's pretty much what has happened, and part of the previously mentioned shit I'm dealing with. However, me not being a superhero at this point involves leaving someone with a chronic degenerative immune condition, and two parents and a best friend with inoperable cancer. The lack of intimacy started way before that situation though, so they're not the cause of it.

Could you leave the marriage, but offer to remain as a friendship emotional support, if you feel guilty leaving her alone to deal with all that? When my parents split up, my dad wasn't good at things like doing his own taxes and the like, so she (my mom) kept doing those things for him until he could get himself settled. Divorces can be more like transitions, if they are amicable. Might help you get things together more quickly if you don't have to stay within the marriage to do it all? 

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, Serran said:

Could you leave the marriage, but offer to remain as a friendship emotional support, if you feel guilty leaving her alone to deal with all that? When my parents split up, my dad wasn't good at things like doing his own taxes and the like, so she kept doing those things for him until he could get himself settled. Divorces can be more like transitions, if they are amicable. Might help you get things together more quickly if you don't have to stay within the marriage to do it all? 

The way she experiences me being supportive is simply being present, and fundamentally doesn't need much noticeable practical or any emotional support. I suspect there's a ton of emotional stuff going on under the surface that she can't understand or articulate, let alone express how I can be supportive, but It's certainly as much information as I'm ever going to get: I've tried to dig deeper many  times, to the point where she said irritatedly 'you're trying to discover something that isn't there'. Her version of showing love is simply living under the same roof, and changing the dynamics of our relationship in itself (ie regardless of how it's done, or what to) would be incredibly stressful, which would come out as aggravating her physical condition and her shutting down even more. I know this because it's what happens when she comes under any kind of external stress.

 

Part of it is also the optics of it, I admit. While I'd know the truth, I'd be fighting everyone else's perceptions of being a total bastard. I ought to be immune to this, I know, but I'm not.

[anamikanon]

You could open your relationship.

[Telecaster68]

21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You could open your relationship.

I've thought about, but even asking is a big thing and can't be unsaid. If she doesn't want that, I've just dropped a massive bomb on her sense of security, and said 'you're not good enough' in the most vivid way possible; either way, it would be a huge other thing on top of the dying parents/friend and chronic pain. Regardless of the whole emotional needs thing, that's a really shitty thing to do.

 

The nearest I've come to bringing it up was in a very hypothetical way asking 'since you don't see sex as a necessary part of a relationship, how would you feel if I had sex with someone else?' and she said she'd feel she'd failed as a wife. How do you respond to that... 'um, yes, pretty much, in that way, you have'?

[anamikanon]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

I've thought about, but even asking is a big thing and can't be unsaid. If she doesn't want that, I've just dropped a massive bomb on her sense of security, and said 'you're not good enough' in the most vivid way possible; either way, it would be a huge other thing on top of the dying parents/friend and chronic pain. Regardless of the whole emotional needs thing, that's a really shitty thing to do.

I am not wired mono, so this logic may not work for her, but to my mind, if she weren't good enough, you'd dump her instead of the headache of contributing to multiple relationships. You're going the harder way because she is worth keeping, no?

 

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

The nearest I've come to bringing it up was in a very hypothetical way asking 'since you don't see sex as a necessary part of a relationship, how would you feel if I had sex with someone else?' and she said she'd feel she'd failed as a wife. How do you respond to that... 'um, yes, pretty much, in that way, you have'?

If your honest truth is that she has failed as a wife, then she needs to know it. It may not feel good, but I doubt she can be unaware of it. When our partner has feelings we prefer they didn't, honesty about them is still comfort, instead of not even being considered important enough to be told crucial truths.

 

Though, as I said before, a better alternative for your own peace of mind is to find things to appreciate about her that don't make her such a burden, or you are just going to screw your own happiness long term.

 

Also, breaking up can seem like the end of the world before you do it, it usually feels like relief and worth any consequences after you have done it. You can still support her. You don't have to be a bastard, but martyring yourself at her feet and resenting her for it is ... more poison than having a clear cut status you both can live with, even if not the "perfect" answer.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

I am not wired mono, so this logic may not work for her, but to my mind, if she weren't good enough, you'd dump her instead of the headache of contributing to multiple relationships. You're going the harder way because she is worth keeping, no?

I honestly don't know. Some of it is that on a friendship level, we're fine, so beyond the total lack of emotional intimacy, it's not agony. Some of it is inertia over tearing down 18 years of shared life, finances, etc. Some of it is about getting my own head together sufficiently not to feel I have to do the superhero stuff.  Some of it is genuinely wanting to support her. 

 

But still... another 20 years of this...?

 

6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It may not feel good, but I doubt she can be unaware of it.

On some level, she is, but she's able to bury unpleasantness like that live a perfectly okay day to day life. She knows I'm unhappy, but seems okay with outsourcing any kind of support - I've depressed enough to (eventually) get a load of NHS therapy, and before that I was doing the whole apathy/isolating thing for the best part of a year. At no point, till it reached a crisis point, did she engage with me being down, though she's said she was aware of it. Her reaction to that crisis point was solely to say I should get therapy. Nothing else. I've explained my needs - like the occasional hug when I'm upset (it was news to her this was a possible response; she says she never needs that so she didn't think of it) - but any efforts from her to carry this through tail off after a week or so, and she admits it. She seems at a loss about solutions, but rejects suggestions from me like phone reminders.

 

Which sounds like she has no feelings for me, but having educated myself in how AS presents in women, I can see that within her limited understanding and ability to express feelings, she does do things, like for instance starting a herb garden even though she doesn't like herbs and doesn't cook, and I do. The highly scripted peck on the lips after much pleading from me is another example. She's making an effort, and I honestly can't tell how much.

 

15 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

find things to appreciate about her that don't make her such a burden, or you are just going to screw your own happiness long term.

It's not that she's a burden in herself, it's that she brings and takes very little to the party, and I need more. My own childhood experiences are largely responsible for me not being clear and assertive about my needs (I basically didn't realise I had any, let alone it being reasonable to find a way to get them met, let alone actually doing it), so that's on me, and that's what a lot of my therapy has centered on. I'm better at it now, but it feels like it's all too late.

 

19 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

When our partner has feelings we prefer they didn't, honesty about them is still comfort, instead of not even being considered important enough to be told crucial truths.

 

I'm honestly not convinced she wants to  know. When I've been insistent about making them clear, she noticeably disengages (changes the subject, is clearly very uncomfortable, withdraws). Over the following few weeks, I get responses like the herb garden - ie a sort of token in her 'language', not what I've asked for.

 

22 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You don't have to be a bastard, but martyring yourself at her feet and resenting her for it is ...

I don't actually resent her generally, though like you, I have my frustrated moments. She is who she is, and it's not awful, day to day.  In her very limited way, I want to think she's doing her best. Again, asking her about her feelings isn't productive. As with your partner, 'hungry', 'cold' etc. are the responses. Anything about emotions seems almost impossible to answer, and tends to be contradictory and arbitrary. I'm just not getting my needs met, and I don't actually see how that in itself makes me a bastard.

 

So the journey I'm having to figure out is this: going from someone with a childhood which left them with no actual concept of having any emotional needs, to someone who's fine with put his own emotional needs above someone who's doing their best with very limited resources in a tough situation. 

[NapoliGirl]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree that exit is probably the only complete solution, and will probably be coming once I've got my own shit in order in various ways.  One of those is escaping the pattern of male martyrdom in my family.

 

This is true for me as well.  Essentially I feel that I've stayed so long for the sake of others, including my kids (who are now almost all out of the nest), for the sake of my extended family, (repeating the martyrdom behaviors of most of the women in my family) and for my spouse.  All along I have done the martyr thing, and now I just can't anymore.  Enough already.

[Traveler40]

Staying for the kids is completely valid as long as you have a generally good life together to offer them.  Our issues are not theirs.  The kids are a major reason in why I will remain in place for some time to come as they are young.  Your current is my future: How will it look when the kids fly the coop?  I can’t fathom it.  

 

My (ex?) lover and I are dancing around the fire these days.  Extrapolating out, I can’t imagine any of my options: A sexless union sans kids 13 years hence, a life where I split time between my husband and a lover or leaving altogether.  There’s much to value about the relationship I have for the back nine of life.  I don’t think it’s trepidation prior to game time nor do I see “relief” at an exit.  I’m full of if onlys...

[NapoliGirl]

19 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

Staying for the kids is completely valid as long as you have a generally good life together to offer them.  Our issues are not theirs.  The kids are a major reason in why I will remain in place for some time to come as they are young.  Your current is my future: How will it look when the kids fly the coop?  I can’t fathom it.  

 

My (ex?) lover and I are dancing around the fire these days.  Extrapolating out, I can’t imagine any of my options: A sexless union sans kids 13 years hence, a life where I split time between my husband and a lover or leaving altogether.  There’s much to value about the relationship I have for the back nine of life.  I don’t think it’s trepidation prior to game time nor do I see “relief” at an exit.  I’m full of if onlys...

Yes, we do our very best to have a solid family life.  I wonder if they even pick up on any of the negativity since we never outwardly express any of it.

Although I am tired and want out of the marriage, it's still so difficult to imagine life apart from someone who I have been with for so long.  But I can't let fear stop me from doing what I feel deep down is the best for me.  Also, I can't imagine the rest of my life living without that which is so very important to me; to stay would be a further, perpetual denial of that part of me that I've stuffed down, compromised, etc. for the past 3 decades.  

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

A bit of both, although in retrospect, she was probably following a script for 'new relationship' which involved performing behaviours which look like emotional reciprocity. That script no longer applies. It's a fairly usual AS pattern.

(I have not followed this thread but ... ) This ‘script’ concept, that sounds similar to what I did before quitting sex. So I want to ask, what is AS? 

[Telecaster68]

Aspergers Syndrome, also called high functioning autism. 

[Guest]

For opening up, if the only issue is her feeling not enough, then perhaps a good response is "It's not that you failed as a wife. You are a good wife in so many ways. We just have such vastly different needs in this one way, which seems unfair to ask you to give up your emotional need of no sex for my emotional need of sex. I was just thinking this could be a good solution to the mismatch, like if you want to (insert activity she likes and does with friends that you hate) and do with someone else since I don't enjoy it."

 

I am heavily monogamous, but as long as the person is respectful and honest I never got mad when asked about it. I couldn't do it , so the one truly poly person I dated we split cause of it. But, it wasn't a huge stress cause he thought enough of me to ask and discuss honestly . 

[anamikanon]

I HATE hurting my ace. But there is this very useful concept Al-Anon uses - if I am sane, I can support my partner. If I descend into insanity, I am of no use to anyone, myself included. There is ALWAYS a limit to how much I will endure to support a partner. For example, living a life devoid of affection or sex AND remaining monogamous is something I wouldn't do. Frankly, if my ace was not into affection, I'd keep him in my life, but he would not be in my bedroom.

 

This would definitely devastate him. There is no missing the implications of this. My bedroom is my private space and I need privacy from him would be the straight out message. This would be a very definite dialling down of the relationship. Aspects that work would continue, but it would be a statement of lack of trust. It would hurt him, but I would do it, because I need space where I can be myself. Even if it is to be sexually frustrated.

 

I would need space where I can retreat to avoid being constantly around him and feeling tempted. Or to masturbate on whim. Or to watch porn. Or to simply be semi dressed - because being undressed around a partner is a message in itself to a sexual person. It not registering on him would feel bad. That sort of a thing. I have to accept that they are not space in my intimate space and create the safety I need. Frankly, in my case, this would include in case I wanted to invite a lover over. I would prefer to not kick him out specifically on those nights. 

 

If he can't be a part of my private life, he shouldn't be in my private space. This is a minimum.

 

At the cost of hurting him? Yes. Even if he felt "not enough" yes! That is the truth. They may prefer to forget we want a whole lot more than they wish to offer, but that is NOT THE TRUTH. The truth is that we need things they do not wish to give and those things need private space. We need to not constantly be reminded of what is refused, we need to have space where we are not observed by eyes that have no empathy for what we feel, we need to have space to meet our needs. Period.

 

She can choose to not like this or make it about herself or feel rejected or whatever, but the simple truth of the matter is that a person cannot live without affection. If she doesn't truly feel enough to care, I fail to see why it should upset her other than reasons irrelevant to the well being of either of you - like norms of monogamy. Not like she actually has plans for you or anything.

 

You may actually find that adding deliberate distance between you two helps her get some space from a constant bombardment of you being around and be a little less averse to your needs as well if she knows that it is sporadic contact and not a 24/7 expectation.

 

The relationship is platonic, transition it to platonic formally. Keep your sexual relationship as it is in truth - uninvolved and available. Whether you remain married or not is unrelated to this.

 

Yes, it can seem odd to admit you have sexual needs to a people who are used to expecting monogamy. Soon enough, you will have an answer that suits your circumstances that you will use easily. You don't have it now, because you don't need it now.

[RAZS]

@anamikanon you have successfully clearly explained my exact feelings.  Now if I could find the guts to actually DO something like this that would be great

[Traveler40]

6 hours ago, NapoliGirl said:

But I can't let fear stop me from doing what I feel deep down is the best for me.

I feel you and understand.  It sounds like you’re focused and determined to carefully forge a new path forward.  I admire the strength you have in taking the necessary steps.  

 

One thing (among others) that may continue to prevent me from leaving is something my father told me awhile back. (He tends to be right about most things, so I pay attention when he provides an opinion.) He sensed something going on with me, and he mentioned he had a very important life lesson to impart: He told me that I was approaching the years when most people seriously want out of their marriages.  Some make it and some don’t. Generally, it’s when the kids hit teen years and you’re facing your life after they leave.  It’s a hard time.  Many don’t make it (he and my Mom divorced during this time), but whatever I do, figure out a way to make it work.  Replacing that history, repairing relations with children, rebuilding finances torn apart, and stitching the pieces back together is near impossible.  The exhilaration of leaving fades rather quickly, but the devastation that occurs lasts for the rest of your life. Leaving sounds better than it is.  It may seem impossible, but figure out how to stay and make it work.

 

Do I believe that?  Yes, mostly I do.  I’m

stuck in a sexless marriage that lacks any and all intimacy.  I fully recognize it’s a choice to stay.  It sucks many days on an emotional level as I’m totally alone, yet I choose my imperfect, unfulfilling life since it’s the best option.  Last year, I chose to open my marriage versus leaving. That too has plenty of challenges, but it was viable for us.  I realize it’s not for everyone, yet it gave me a much needed option.

 

A life fully entwined - if you never find that which you seek after leaving, will you regret having left?  I wonder about this . It’s not fear, but practically weighing potential outcomes the way I see it.

[Telecaster68]

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

if I am sane, I can support my partner. If I descend into insanity, I am of no use to anyone, myself included.

The version of this I'm familiar with is 'put your own oxygen mask on first'. 

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

If he can't be a part of my private life, he shouldn't be in my private space. This is a minimum.

Effectively, I've done this, but with time more than space. For instance, partly because she needs a lot of sleep, and partly through my choice, we are seldom both conscious in our bedroom. I go to bed after her and get up before her. There's almost no physical contact, and what there is minimal - the occasional touching of legs for a few minutes etc. (which she thinks of as meaningful cuddles, apparently). Mostly she's swaddled up in layers of bed clothes. I'm long past 'bed' having any implications of sex with her, or our entire relationship having any sexual element: on our last wedding anniversary, the thought of anniversary sex literally didn't cross my mind till I saw it mentioned online in a completely different context, for instance. 

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

At the cost of hurting him? Yes. Even if he felt "not enough" yes! That is the truth.

This is the rub. If I'd been in a place to assert my needs in previous years, then yes, I could've contemplated inflicting that hurt. But now, it's about more than her feeling of not being enough. With dying parents and a dying best friend, plus her illness, it seems a lot to inflict on anyone, even with minimal levels of caring about them. Maybe I'll get to the point where it seems acceptable. I don't know. As @Traveler40 implies, sometimes life is just shit.

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

They may prefer to forget we want a whole lot more than they wish to offer, but that is NOT THE TRUTH. The truth is that we need things they do not wish to give and those things need private space.

I'm not convinced it's just that they 'wish' not to offer it. From reading a lot of posts on AVEN for some years, as well as a lot on AS in other places, it seems more like unable. And if they're unable rather than just unwilling, how fair is it to rub that in their faces?

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

the simple truth of the matter is that a person cannot live without affection.

My wife can, apparently, at least as far as anything most people would recognise as affection.

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

I fail to see why it should upset her other than reasons irrelevant to the well being of either of you

She is capable of understanding intellectually that at least in one very important way, an external relationship would be vastly more satisfactory for me (and probably more than just sexually - there would be physical affection as well, and I wouldn't want a sexual relationship with someone I don't have a fairly strong mental connection with), so it would be a threat to our relationship. There are plenty of posts from asexuals saying they couldn't cope with polyamorous relationships though they completely understand why a sexual would want it. Whether I think that's fair or not, I have to accept that it is in fact how they (and likely my wife) feel.

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

You may actually find that adding deliberate distance between you two helps her get some space from a constant bombardment of you being around and be a little less averse to your needs as well if she knows that it is sporadic contact and not a 24/7 expectation.

It's not a bombardment - being under the same roof is literally her need. She's not able to act on my needs being more, and only understands them in an intellectual way. I make no demands on her, haven't for years, and she happily accepted that distancing, assuming it even registers much.

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

it can seem odd to admit you have sexual needs to a people who are used to expecting monogamy

For me (and this is definitely 'my stuff', which I'm working on), admitting I have more than trivial needs is more than 'odd'. It's a fundamental shift in how I view myself, my needs, and how I interact with people. I'm not sure I'll ever get to the point where I'm able to say 'yes, your parents are dying, as is one of your closest friends, and you have a chronic degenerative autoimmune disease, and we get on well enough day to day in a slightly distant way, but my emotional needs trump all of those, so I'm off'.

 

8 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Soon enough, you will have an answer that suits your circumstances that you will use easily. You don't have it now, because you don't need it now.

My view and experience of the world is that magic like that just doesn't happen. I certainly do need it now, and I don't have it.

[anamikanon]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

For me (and this is definitely 'my stuff', which I'm working on), admitting I have more than trivial needs is more than 'odd'. It's a fundamental shift in how I view myself, my needs, and how I interact with people. I'm not sure I'll ever get to the point where I'm able to say 'yes, your parents are dying, as is one of your closest friends, and you have a chronic degenerative autoimmune disease, and we get on well enough day to day in a slightly distant way, but my emotional needs trump all of those, so I'm off'.

I don't understand why you choose the worst possible wordings to describe your desire. Earlier it was telling her that she isn't enough. Now it is telling her that your desires trump hers. Etc.

 

Is it possible to simply say that you are two people in a relationship and there are serious problems long term that aren't going away in a hurry, but you are also exceedingly lonely and finding it hard to cope and need to see your needs met so that you can stop being pulled down by them while attending to the other serious issues?

 

It isn't wrong to have needs in a relationship. It isn't wrong to have needs that will seem trivial compared with someone else's bigger problems. It isn't wrong to try and address your needs as long as you aren't doing it at the cost of someone else. Unless your finding some love and affection for yourself means that you'll hasten someone's death or deny your wife support in dealing with the hard time, I fail to see what denying your needs achieves here.

 

If it were a short term thing, i'd say wait for the difficult time to pass. But I think you'd agree that it is better to do what you need to right now than wait for three people to die? If your wife is dependent on you, losing people she cares about will make her more sensitive to losing you. So effectively, the time will never be right.

 

If this is what you are saying and what you have concluded, then you need to be able to come to terms with this instead of the bitterness. You cannot continue long term fixated on what is missing and unable to come to terms with what is there.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

I don't understand why you choose the worst possible wordings to describe your desire. Earlier it was telling her that she isn't enough. Now it is telling her that your desires trump hers. Etc.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

It isn't wrong to have needs in a relationship. It isn't wrong to have needs that will seem trivial compared with someone else's bigger problems. It isn't wrong to try and address your needs as long as you aren't doing it at the cost of someone else. Unless your finding some love and affection for yourself means that you'll hasten someone's death or deny your wife support in dealing with the hard time, I fail to see what denying your needs achieves here.

Addressing my needs is at the cost of someone else and will necessarily deny my wife support, as I see it.

 

5 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

effectively, the time will never be right.

That's my point.

 

6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

If this is what you are saying and what you have concluded, then you need to be able to come to terms with this instead of the bitterness. You cannot continue long term fixated on what is missing and unable to come to terms with what is there.

Thanks. What do you suggest?

 

My current plan is to work myself up to leaving, but it will take time, if I can ever do it. It's not a happy situation in the meantime.

[anamikanon]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

What do you suggest?

I thought I already did.

 

Have a clear conversation with your wife at a suitable moment, that explains your needs, and explain what it does to you to have them constantly denied. Explain that this is not good for your well being and thus, not good for her either, if you are not in a good state yourself to support others.

 

Stop trying to be the martyr who will accommodate to everyone's needs and cannot ask for his own - no good will come out of this - not even for her. She loses choices when you unilaterally martyr yourself to the point where you are waiting to extricate yourself and she will be blindsided by it when it is too late for her to do anything about it.  She may be asexual, she may not want affection, but she is an adult in an adult relationship and capable of negotiating her side in the relationship. Also, if your eventual vision is separating, don't you think it is high time she spoke for herself on what goes on in the relationship rather than you deciding to martyr yourself for both of you?

 

More importantly, no one deserves to have a long term relationship suddenly collapse on them without warning because their partner is fed up of putting up with their inadequacies. Seeing it coming will also help her prepare and not make you look like the "bastard" in the eyes of society that you were concerned about, if you reach the point of exiting.

 

Listen to her if she has suggestions. Answer any questions she has honestly without trying to either play down your needs or overdramatize them as at the cost of others. If you are still willing to accept attempts by her to provide you with as much intimacy as she is comfortable with as an alternative to opening the relationship, and she offers, articulate your needs as clearly as possible - you don't have to do it immediately, you can say you will think it through and share what you think she can reasonably offer. Where possible, if you are able to find mutually acceptable suggestions, take them.

 

If not, formally recognize your relationship as what it really is - platonic - and state that you would seek own romantic/sexual relationships in the future, regardless of whether you stay together as platonic friends/housemates or separate. Again, I would recommend not making a huge drama/blame out of this, but stating it factually as the current reality of the relationship that you are recognizing. Reassure her that you have no intention of dumping her in a hard time and this is not likely to change the quality of your relationship with her - other than perhaps removing some of your bitterness.

 

That way, you don't have to tangle your personal well being with the insecurity in her relationships. You can live with her and be with her and support her without living in a limbo, waiting for some indefinite thing to happen that will miraculously make hard choices easy.

 

[Telecaster68]

4 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Have a clear conversation with your wife at a suitable moment, that explains your needs, and explain what it does to you to have them constantly denied. Explain that this is not good for your well being and thus, not good for her either, if you are not in a good state yourself to support others.

I have had this conversation. She essentially shrugs her shoulders and says it's not her problem. She isn't, after all, asking much of me beyond being under the same roof. From her point of view, I'm needy and asking for her to do more emotional work than she's asking of me. Whether she's unwilling or unable to do that work is moot. I think it's a bit of both, and I can understand why, given her situation.

 

6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Stop trying to be the martyr who will accommodate to everyone's needs and cannot ask for his own

This is what I'm trying to do. I'm getting better at it, but it's a slow process. 

 

7 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

don't you think it is high time she spoke for herself on what goes on in the relationship rather than you deciding to martyr yourself for both of you?

We've had multiple conversations about the relationship, always because I've pressed the subject. When I do, she claims to be fine, and on a superficial level, is. There are hints and signs that in fact she's not though, if you pay attention, but she can't articulate them. She's at a loss about what she can do. Your partner has alexithymia, you know how those conversations go.

 

10 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

no one deserves to have a long term relationship suddenly collapse on them without warning because their partner is fed up of putting up with their inadequacies.

This is true. But for the reasons I've mentioned, this kind of ultimatum (which is inevitably what it would come out of) is  not something I feel able to do yet.

 

16 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Listen to her if she has suggestions. Answer any questions she has honestly without trying to either play down your needs or overdramatize them as at the cost of others. If you are still willing to accept attempts by her to provide you with as much intimacy as she is comfortable with as an alternative to opening the relationship, and she offers, articulate your needs as clearly as possible - you don't have to do it immediately, you can say you will think it through and share what you think she can reasonably offer. Where possible, if you are able to find mutually acceptable suggestions, take them.

Again, done this several years ago. She had no suggestions, so I put some forward, and we negotiated agreed plans on that basis. She found it difficult to stick to the basics of that plan, and when she did, the sex was emotionally so painfully bad and awkward for both of us that we abandoned it. She's never alluded to it since and seems relieved, and physically withdrawn further. The last thing I want is sex with someone who doesn't want it or to force her to do something she's uncomfortable with.

 

24 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Reassure her that you have no intention of dumping her in a hard time and this is not likely to change the quality of your relationship with her - other than perhaps removing some of your bitterness.

Saying I'm going to have sex with other people will inevitably change the quality of our relationship. I don't act bitter towards her - any more, and I've never been one to make snide remarks or aggressive demands. However she never, ever could make the connection between the specifics of her behaviour and mine. For instance, she never understood or at least remembered after we'd talked about it, that I might have an angry outburst about something relatively trivial because my general mood was irritated and frustrated over the situation. Her response was that I should just control the outburst and it was caused by my fucked up childhood. That has an element of truth, and I do now. That's become easier and more authentically about separating her and me with therapy. It's also meant she can avoid dealing with it.

 

29 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You can live with her and be with her and support her without living in a limbo, waiting for some indefinite thing to happen that will miraculously make hard choices easy.

I'm not waiting for a miracle. I'm working on myself, but these changes aren't just a switch I can flip.

 

Look - I take your general point and I feel like I'm putting up a blizzard of 'yes but' objections. I get slightly annoyed when it feels like I'm getting a barrage of glib instructions about how to solve the situation, which is why I don't normally go anywhere near discussing it. In the end, she and I are just incompatible, but dealing with that isn't as simple as just saying 'if x, then do y'.

[anamikanon]

Ok. I hear you. I just felt like pointing out the obvious - and this is really obvious stuff - because you still seem very bitter about it when talking about incompatibility, though when you talk about her, you sound reconciled to a long situation. I do get what you say about things not being simple yes/no situations. 

 

I guess at least part of my unease with your situation is related with my own issues. I have been through situations where sacrifice was expected of me, and have learned the hard way to treat equals as equals and am paranoid about creating dependencies that start to smother. I have seen firsthand how being reliable without having reasonable boundaries can become its own trap, because then someone relies to surreal extents, and you seeking your own needs becomes about letting them down. I have thought long and hard about this and realized that we do this to ourselves and feel the need to caution when I see it.

 

Clearly you see it, and have been thinking what to do without any obvious solutions. Can see how that can be too.

[Traveler40]

@anamikanon your input is incredible and needed here as I’ve mentioned in the past.  I thoroughly enjoy reading you if at times it’s a bit high handed.  You certainly mean well and are both forthright and sincere.  I think that sometimes being too focused on self though is not practical, possible or kind.  Perhaps this is also what binds @Telecaster68 versus simply caving from habit.  You’re both valid and making good points, but the person living and breathing in the household is the one who needs to be clear, conscious and carefully making decisions considering all involved.  As you know, human interactions are complex - and yes, standing up for yourself and your needs is important - which generally requires time, thought and care. I see @telecaster68 in thought, having care and taking his time...all good stuff.

[Telecaster68]

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

you still seem very bitter about it when talking about incompatibility, though when you talk about her, you sound reconciled to a long situation.

Yes, both apply. I'm bitter about the situation rather than her though.

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

I have been through situations where sacrifice was expected of me, and have learned the hard way to treat equals as equals and am paranoid about creating dependencies that start to smother.

I've seen that pattern play out multiple times in my family, and I'm very aware of how it can play out with me - those repeating patterns were pretty much the focus of my therapy. The insight is useful, but those patterns of behaviour modelled around me since childhood are hard to shake off.

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

you seeking your own needs becomes about letting them down

And sometimes, it genuinely is letting them down. The question is then how entitled you are to let them down, and that's the bit I struggle with.

 

It's been useful to discuss it though. Thanks.

 

 

[roland.o]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:51 PM, NapoliGirl said:

Yes, we do our very best to have a solid family life.  I wonder if they even pick up on any of the negativity since we never outwardly express any of it.

I'm pretty sure they do, or will do long before you expect them to. Give them opportunities to ask questions, and answer honestly if they do. Parents covering up negative feelings in the relationship can put a huge burden on their kids. Remember, the kids will grow up and are very likely to enter relationships themselves. They will learn from your example, good or bad. The better they understand their parents, the easier it will be for them to find their own path.

 

OK, back to the main topic. I don't want to derail this thread.

[NapoliGirl]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:11 PM, Telecaster68 said:

I've thought about, but even asking is a big thing and can't be unsaid. If she doesn't want that, I've just dropped a massive bomb on her sense of security, and said 'you're not good enough' in the most vivid way possible; either way, it would be a huge other thing on top of the dying parents/friend and chronic pain. Regardless of the whole emotional needs thing, that's a really shitty thing to do.

 

The nearest I've come to bringing it up was in a very hypothetical way asking 'since you don't see sex as a necessary part of a relationship, how would you feel if I had sex with someone else?' and she said she'd feel she'd failed as a wife. How do you respond to that... 'um, yes, pretty much, in that way, you have'?

Yes, as well for me.  This is a non-option.  

[NapoliGirl]

2 hours ago, roland.o said:

I'm pretty sure they do, or will do long before you expect them to. Give them opportunities to ask questions, and answer honestly if they do. Parents covering up negative feelings in the relationship can put a huge burden on their kids. Remember, the kids will grow up and are very likely to enter relationships themselves. They will learn from your example, good or bad. The better they understand their parents, the easier it will be for them to find their own path.

 

 

Yes, I guess I am in a bit of denial when I think they don't pick up on the negativity since it's not blatant/in their faces so to speak, but I am sure they pick up on the dynamics.  This adds just another layer of stress for me, and I am hoping counselling can help me with me to project a more positive attitude overall.  

[anisotrophic]

On 3/12/2018 at 12:53 PM, NapoliGirl said:

That is so true for me.  Also, for me personally I feel that knowing the real deal about absence of sexual desire /attraction within him is playing a huge role in this.  I don't think I can get over that truth.   For me, sex without that part is not what does it for me.  Call me naive or whatever, I just can't have and never could have sex apart from the emotion or desire.

 

Catching up here, but struggling with the same here.

 

My scenario should be ideal, and my husband is being completely kind about it, but now that I'm accepting his absence of desire… after ~15 years together, what I always wanted… I don't want. He's still willing, but sex has become pretty upsetting.

It's sounded like a common phenomenon. I wish I knew if it would go away. If I'll get over it, and when. Does that ever happen?

I've got the option of "open", but it's too hard to do (not enough time, too complicated, emotional risks). The hypothetical isn't really cheering me up.

[NapoliGirl]

34 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

 

It's sounded like a common phenomenon. I wish I knew if it would go away. If I'll get over it, and when. Does that ever happen?

 

Exactly what I am wondering as well....does it go away, if I will get over it and when.  The reality is that I am in my mid 50s right now.  Awful for me to say, maybe, but how much time do I spend trying to see if it does?  Sure, we don't know from day to day what will happen to us in regard to our own mortality (illness, accident, etc..), but casting that aside, I'm feeling more and more as if I owe myself the potential opportunities that may exist  (no guarantees of course, that the grass would indeed be greener on the other side).