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This is Ironic....


NapoliGirl

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So this is what is so ironic for me, and I'm wondering if anyone else out there has had this happen to them....the physical intimacy that  I have been wanting and needing for years now from my husband, that which has been devoid in my life for the past 2 decades, that which is causing me to seriously consider walking out on nearly 30 years of marriage.....I simply DO NOT want from him!!  The though of him even touching me makes me so ill!!  And for that I feel so messed up.  Has anybody out there gone through this as well?

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So much to slog through.  Mentally I am exhausted from it all, this whole process is draining on so many levels. Inner turmoil, tired of all the compromising, having issues with the marriage counseling process, trying to keep it all together for my kids and family, and the deep knowing that this thing that I am in will never be what I truly need.  Let's not even talk about the guilt I feel.  It would be so much easier to walk out if he were an a***ole!

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I've talked to plenty of sexual partners who, even when it was offered, found they lacked any interest in the physical intimacy they had been craving because of the lack of interest in their partner for so long. 

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Telecaster68

Sadly the absence itself is painful, so it's not like the incompatibility had just disappeared. 

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37 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Is it more than just the sexlessness? 

Yes, indeed it is. All through the marriage I really never had a "voice", in most matters, really.  And yes, I take full responsibility for this because I was so passive (a deeply ingrained personality trait, I'm afraid.  Now I reflect upon how that may have been very instrumental in why we married.)  He left the child rearing pretty much up to me, though, but for all the rest, it's been all his way, in and out of the bedroom.   Right around the time I turned 50, it was as if a massive realization hit me, talk about major mid-life crisis.  And I found my voice again.  So it's dealing with years and years of  compromise in all areas, again I am trying to come to terms with my role in it all.  And I am bitter and resentful about how for the past 25-plus years, all of his needs have been met, while mine have been effectively deemed insignificant, yes, through my own actions/inactions as well.  If that makes any sense.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, NapoliGirl said:

Yes, indeed it is. All through the marriage I really never had a "voice", in most matters, really.  And yes, I take full responsibility for this because I was so passive (a deeply ingrained personality trait, I'm afraid.  Now I reflect upon how that may have been very instrumental in why we married.)  He left the child rearing pretty much up to me, though, but for all the rest, it's been all his way, in and out of the bedroom.   Right around the time I turned 50, it was as if a massive realization hit me, talk about major mid-life crisis.  And I found my voice again.  So it's dealing with years and years of  compromise in all areas, again I am trying to come to terms with my role in it all.  And I am bitter and resentful about how for the past 25-plus years, all of his needs have been met, while mine have been effectively deemed insignificant, yes, through my own actions/inactions as well.  If that makes any sense.

Perfect sense. Far too close to home  for comfort in fact. 

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45 minutes ago, Serran said:

I've talked to plenty of sexual partners who, even when it was offered, found they lacked any interest in the physical intimacy they had been craving because of the lack of interest in their partner for so long. 

That is so true for me.  Also, for me personally I feel that knowing the real deal about absence of sexual desire /attraction within him is playing a huge role in this.  I don't think I can get over that truth.   For me, sex without that part is not what does it for me.  Call me naive or whatever, I just can't have and never could have sex apart from the emotion or desire.

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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Perfect sense. Far too close to home  for comfort in fact. 

I'm so wrecked.  We are in counselling right now and it is so incredibly difficult, but I feel we must at least make a fair try of it.  This is a big part of why I am staying. 

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10 minutes ago, NapoliGirl said:

That is so true for me.  Also, for me personally I feel that knowing the real deal about absence of sexual desire /attraction within him is playing a huge role in this.  I don't think I can get over that truth.   For me, sex without that part is not what does it for me.  Call me naive or whatever, I just can't have and never could have sex apart from the emotion or desire.

Yeah I couldn't have any sort of sexual interactions with my partner if they weren't 100% into it, either. So, I get it. 

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Telecaster68
16 minutes ago, NapoliGirl said:

I'm so wrecked.  We are in counselling right now and it is so incredibly difficult, but I feel we must at least make a fair try of it.  This is a big part of why I am staying. 

Yeah if you're both putting the effort in it's worth trying. 

 

I think it's perfectly natural to need to be wanted, even if it's only knowing they enjoy giving you pleasure without having desire thensleves. themselves. 

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I am not into martyrdom, so I don't have an insight into the deprivation front that well, but in general, I have found that I have a sexual relationship "period" of sorts. Possibly because I am also asocial. If I haven't had intimacy with a partner for a while, I no longer want it. It is like I revoke access to my intimate space, so that person is no longer accepted getting too close to me. It has caused at least one relationship to collapse in the past. He was "busy" and not very affectionate. After a period of trying to get his attention, my mind simply moved on. I no longer wanted him. He woke up one day and tried to "patch up" the relationship. I didn't see the state of my relationships as having any problems. He simply wasn't on the list.

 

Refusing intimacy overall is a big no-no for me. I'll stay happily celibate for life if need be, but if I am refused access to you, I don't want crumbs kind of thing. One reason my relationship with my ace works so well is because he has always accepted me. He isn't averse, which helps. He honestly says when he doesn't like something and trusts me not to do it, rather than making rules forbidding me. It is all the difference between intimacy (even a sexual intimacy that says NO) and barriers - or the difference between "I don't want" and "You don't do". One is a statement of how he feels. It is a sharing. The other is a restriction on me. 

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2 hours ago, anamikanon said:

 

 

Refusing intimacy overall is a big no-no for me. I'll stay happily celibate for life if need be, but if I am refused access to you, I don't want crumbs kind of thing. One reason my relationship with my ace works so well is because he has always accepted me. He isn't averse, which helps. He honestly says when he doesn't like something and trusts me not to do it, rather than making rules forbidding me. It is all the difference between intimacy (even a sexual intimacy that says NO) and barriers - or the difference between "I don't want" and "You don't do". One is a statement of how he feels. It is a sharing. The other is a restriction on me. 

I'm glad your ace isn't averse, is trusting and vocal, and that you have found a way to make it work mutually.

 

Unfortunately, my spouse always has been and still is a stone wall type of guy.  Not much talk, not much sharing, especially on sensitive matters, extremely conflict averse.  After knowing the man for 33 years, and living this for 28 years, I know that at this point, anything sexual that happens is an act of desperation on his part to keep me.  And I just can't deal with that.  It's so messed  up.

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6 hours ago, NapoliGirl said:

Unfortunately, my spouse always has been and still is a stone wall type of guy.  Not much talk, not much sharing, especially on sensitive matters, extremely conflict averse.

Mine is like this too. Who knows where we will be after three decades, but so far, initiating conversations (he is never going to do it), helping him recognize his patterns that don't help the relationship and giving him lots of space to come to terms with them works. For example, when I realized that he almost never shares what he is feeling, I started asking him more directly "how do you feel about this" "what about this" and so on. Most of the times his responses are neutral "alright" "ok"... when pushed, they'd be "hungry" "sleepy" rather than "happy" "sad".

 

It takes patience, but I have found overall that remaining very non-judgmental and rephrasing what they say to include what you think is the likely emotion and asking them if that is right, helps. With time, it did help him speak up about sexual issues as well, though I have to initiate the conversation. But now, he is at least able to say what is ok, what is not ok, and so on. Earlier, I used to stop if he seemed uncomfortable or disinterested. Now he is able to tell me.

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4 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Mine is like this too. Who knows where we will be after three decades, but so far, initiating conversations (he is never going to do it), helping him recognize his patterns that don't help the relationship and giving him lots of space to come to terms with them works. For example, when I realized that he almost never shares what he is feeling, I started asking him more directly "how do you feel about this" "what about this" and so on. Most of the times his responses are neutral "alright" "ok"... when pushed, they'd be "hungry" "sleepy" rather than "happy" "sad".

 

It takes patience, but I have found overall that remaining very non-judgmental and rephrasing what they say to include what you think is the likely emotion and asking them if that is right, helps. With time, it did help him speak up about sexual issues as well, though I have to initiate the conversation. But now, he is at least able to say what is ok, what is not ok, and so on. Earlier, I used to stop if he seemed uncomfortable or disinterested. Now he is able to tell me.

Seems like you are really tuned in to healthy communication.  These are the things we have been working on with our marriage counselor, and little by little it is improving the day to day life around here.  It's a process, I know.  I will say though, that after all these decades I'm running out of steam.  However, gotta remember and tell myself:  day by day.

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55 minutes ago, NapoliGirl said:

Seems like you are really tuned in to healthy communication.  These are the things we have been working on with our marriage counselor, and little by little it is improving the day to day life around here.  It's a process, I know.  I will say though, that after all these decades I'm running out of steam.  However, gotta remember and tell myself:  day by day.

Something else that can help with someone that isn't comfortable discussing feelings is letting them write them down, rather than forcing a face-to-face. Sometimes me and my ex would email things rather than discuss in person. And with my current partner, certain things are not comfortable if there will be an immediate reaction, so she tells me in writing when there will be a few hours between us talking that way there is a buffer. 

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2 minutes ago, Serran said:

Something else that can help with someone that isn't comfortable discussing feelings is letting them write them down, rather than forcing a face-to-face. Sometimes me and my ex would email things rather than discuss in person. And with my current partner, certain things are not comfortable if there will be an immediate reaction, so she tells me in writing when there will be a few hours between us talking that way there is a buffer. 

Yes. I think this is a method that would be very beneficial to us as well.  In fact, I am motivated this morning to get some things down in writing for further discussion!

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4 hours ago, NapoliGirl said:

Seems like you are really tuned in to healthy communication.  These are the things we have been working on with our marriage counselor, and little by little it is improving the day to day life around here.  It's a process, I know.  I will say though, that after all these decades I'm running out of steam.  However, gotta remember and tell myself:  day by day.

I have a background in behavioral sciences and applied psychology. It has never come in as handy before as in this relationship. We would have probably broken up if it were not for my ability to work with what was going on. A lot of our relationship has bordered on therapy.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

A lot of our relationship has bordered on therapy.

I think this is often the way when one partner has a lot of AS-ish stuff going on, from research I've read and other forums. I'm not very comfortable with it though - I'm not a therapist, and I'm not qualified to be, and I don't want the one-way interaction of a therapeutic relationship with my wife.

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22 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think this is often the way when one partner has a lot of AS-ish stuff going on, from research I've read and other forums. I'm not very comfortable with it though - I'm not a therapist, and I'm not qualified to be, and I don't want the one-way interaction of a therapeutic relationship with my wife.

This is actually a very good call. Ideally a therapist should not be someone with an actual role in your life, because that person will get a lot of spillover from the person's own issues. My role in his life is as his partner. I could help a million other people, but I am not the right person to help him, beyond my natural presence, which is inevitably influenced by my own knowledge.

 

What I meant was merely that the knowledge helped me understand and communicate with him rather than be bewildered and hurt and break off. It is not my job to "fix" him. That is an important boundary I never cross. The day I do, it will undermine our relationship.

 

You cannot be both therapist and lover. One sees the darkest side of your mind, the other you want to show the brightest side of it.

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Telecaster68
13 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

the knowledge helped me understand and communicate with him rather than be bewildered and hurt and break off

My fear is that it's a very grey area / thin line / thin end of the wedge (pick your metaphor to suit...).

 

Some of that communication inevitably involves, with an AS, backing off with emotional expression because an AS person has problems processing them. Maybe that comes under taking your fair share of managing a relationship. Maybe. Then add in that you have to manage their emotional reactions too, and your own  because, again, they have problems with that. Maybe that's just how some relationships go. Maybe. Naturally, you want the situation to improve, and ... you, the NT, have to manage large chunks of that process too. Well, one person generally ends up being keener than the other in that situation. So maybe that's just usual, too.

 

But... put them together.

 

The aggregate effect is that the non-AS partner has to manage how their bring themselves to the relationship, manage their reactions to their partner, and not expect anything approaching a normative emotional bond with them. At the same time, if they want the relationship to change, they have to lead that change.

 

This is sounding very much like a client-therapist relationship to me.

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28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The aggregate effect is that the non-AS partner has to manage how their bring themselves to the relationship, manage their reactions to their partner, and not expect anything approaching a normative emotional bond with them. At the same time, if they want the relationship to change, they have to lead that change.

 

This is sounding very much like a client-therapist relationship to me.

I don't see it as a client therapist relationship so much. For one, I'd boot a client who gave me so much grief. lol

 

Jokes apart, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are in a relationship with someone who has psychological issues, it is like this only. They may want change, but they want it in order to not burden you with so much and have no idea how to go about achieving it. Frankly, I don't think this is entirely a behavioral issue to be possible to correct in such a manner. In the sense that if this is not an acceptable form of a relationship for you, you are going to have to exit the relationship. Otherwise it is like staring in exasperation at a chair and wondering why for once it won't act like a table. Well, because it is a chair?

 

For me, it isn't such a big deal. I have tremendous competence dealing with people. I can look past this and see the relationship as a whole. I don't even see it as an AS/NT relationship or a client therapist relationship (this, in particular is poison to equality in a relationship). I simply see it as assisting someone I care about with something he isn't able to do well. I have a lousy back and he uncomplainingly does tasks involving bending and lifting for me as well. It is something he is good at and I am not, just like complex management of emotions is something I find a breeze while he can't begin to fathom. I don't see him as being inferior in some manner for needing assistance. We all need assistance with something or the other. Frankly, I think NT is a myth.

 

In my view, if you cannot see two people entering a relationship as equals, and see it as some form of a dependent/caretaker relationship, then you are setting yourself up for a long term caretaker role that you resent. It may feel good to seem "perfect" while the other person is the one incapable of things, but it is poor comfort when it is time to roll up your sleeves and get to work. Day after day, year after year. You lose intimacy the minute you lose equality.

 

It is not fair to your partner, and it won't be fair to you, even though you may seem to have the power in the situation. It is a trap many people fall into. Tolerating partners they can't respect out of some martyrdom. Never seen it feel rewarding. How will it feel rewarding if the person you are martyring yourself for doesn't sound like a reward in your life to begin with?

 

Edit: For those who have lost track of where this conversation went, AS= Aspergers Syndrome. NT = Neurotypical. He sees the problems I describe with my partner as similar to Aspergers, which could be correct, but then again I am not bothered about labels unless my partner chooses to identify as it. Regardless, there is no denying that several of the problems he faces are seen among people on the Autism spectrum, though my partner is relatively high functioning and only has issues in specific areas, notably, relationships with people.

 

More importantly, he doesn't mean Asexual when he says AS.

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Telecaster68

I agree that exit is probably the only complete solution, and will probably be coming once I've got my own shit in order in various ways.  One of those is escaping the pattern of male martyrdom in my family.

 

38 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I simply see it as assisting someone I care about with something he isn't able to do well.... We all need assistance with something or the other. 

There's a difference between doing the emotional work in a relationship, and pretty much everything else. Relationships are pretty much entirely composed of emotional reciprocity, so an inability to handle anything involving emotional reciprocity has far more repercussions than an inability to bend and lift. On the most simplistic level, getting paid help for bending and lifting would have no implications for emotional intimacy. 

 

I don't see her as inferior as a person. I do see her (based on 18  years' experience) as being inferior at understanding and meeting emotional needs in the normative range for most people in a relationship.

 

38 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

How will it feel rewarding if the person you are martyring yourself for doesn't sound like a reward in your life to begin with?

It was rewarding initially, however her behaviour has changed (not just sexually, but in general, interactions are increasingly scripted and we're essentially barely more than friends). Mine has too, mostly in reaction to the lack of emotional involvement, and also dealing with my own shit.

 

Regarding labels - my wife has speculated, in passing, about being both asexual and AS, without positively identifying or rejecting as either. I only refer to them as they give me the best explanation of what I can observe about her behaviour, in order to figure out how to change my behaviour for the best.

 

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16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There's a difference between doing the emotional work in a relationship, and pretty much everything else. Relationships are pretty much entirely composed of emotional reciprocity, so an inability to handle anything involving emotional reciprocity has far more repercussions than an inability to bend and lift.

Sure. not saying it is easy.

 

Quote

On the most simplistic level, getting paid help for bending and lifting would have no implications for emotional intimacy. 

Trust me, when you get cranky and can't sleep because your back aches, it torpedoes emotional intimacy in ways a person like me wishes could be solved with mental effort alone. You really can't hire help for every single time you think of making a movement. For example, lift kid from the floor, put into bed. As many times as said kid wishes.

 

The difference here, is that I am not exaggerating when I say I have competence dealing with people and doing the emotional heavy lifting is not a big deal for me. You will see it from my posts here itself. I have a keen observation of human behavior. It is second nature to the point I avoid interacting with people, because it clutters my mind with unnecessary data about them. What seems like a big effort to you, does not seem that big to me. That is what I am saying. I am not saying it is easy or fair, but I have the skills it takes to understand his feelings for me regardless of the hundred things in the way.

 

It is also why I am literally his whole world, because I am pretty much the only person he can feel intimate with and understood by, because it is not easy to relate to him beyond a transactional level (at which he excels - he is actually a very competent professional with a diverse array of skills)

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

when you get cranky and can't sleep because your back aches, it torpedoes emotional intimacy in ways a person like me wishes could be solved with mental effort alone.

That wasn't the point I was making. You can prevent back ache without the preventative action itself having negative effects on the relationship.

 

3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I have a keen observation of human behavior

Out of interest, have you observed how others view statements like that?

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37 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

 

 

For me, it isn't such a big deal. I have tremendous competence dealing with people. I can look past this and see the relationship as a whole. I don't even see it as an AS/NT relationship or a client therapist relationship (this, in particular is poison to equality in a relationship). I simply see it as assisting someone I care about with something he isn't able to do well. I have a lousy back and he uncomplainingly does tasks involving bending and lifting for me as well. It is something he is good at and I am not, just like complex management of emotions is something I find a breeze while he can't begin to fathom. I don't see him as being inferior in some manner for needing assistance. We all need assistance with something or the other. Frankly, I think NT is a myth.

 

In my view, if you cannot see two people entering a relationship as equals, and see it as some form of a dependent/caretaker relationship, then you are setting yourself up for a long term caretaker role that you resent. It may feel good to seem "perfect" while the other person is the one incapable of things, but it is poor comfort when it is time to roll up your sleeves and get to work. Day after day, year after year. You lose intimacy the minute you lose equality.

 

 

I would agree with this. 

 

My partner is ... very not good at expressing emotions. I ask how they feel about something and I get "I don't know", I ask the cause behind an emotion and get "I don't know", I ask the reasoning behind a preference and get "I don't know". They barely even notice their own withdrawing at times, which is a natural reaction. It's frustrating at times, sure. But, instead of viewing helping with being able to communicate or even understand something as caretaking, I just view it as being supportive and helpful to my partner. She helps me out with things, so I don't begrudge her a little help and understanding in emotional matters that she's not as good with. We complement each other's weaknesses, rather than me taking care of her, or her taking care of me. 

21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

 

There's a difference between doing the emotional work in a relationship, and pretty much everything else. Relationships are pretty much entirely composed of emotional reciprocity, so an inability to handle anything involving emotional reciprocity has far more repercussions than an inability to bend and lift. On the most simplistic level, getting paid help for bending and lifting would have no implications for emotional intimacy. 

 

I don't see her as inferior as a person. I do see her (based on 18  years' experience) as being inferior at understanding and meeting emotional needs in the normative range for most people in a relationship.

 

 

 

How did the relationship blossom if she is incapable of emotional reciprocity? Was she better at it at the start, or were you just more tolerant of it? 

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Also, to elaborate the point, bending and lifting was a superficial example, but my ace does have a very caring nature. He is a parent to my son the way my ex never was. Frankly, he is even more caring than I am with my son. I can't hire this. He can be extremely loving in his actions. He is with me in ways I have not experienced a partner be, ever. No matter what I am up to, he has my back. And trust me, it is not at all easy with a person like me. So, he does a lot of heavy lifting on the caring front. Actual nurturing, physical caring actions. While I do it more on the mental front, but am not actually much of a people contact person.

 

We both have our strengths that we bring to the relationship. Would it simply not be awful if we had to compare his lack of a sexual instinct with my lack of a parenting instinct, for example?

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Telecaster68
Just now, Serran said:

How did the relationship blossom if she is incapable of emotional reciprocity? Was she better at it at the start, or were you just more tolerant of it? 

A bit of both, although in retrospect, she was probably following a script for 'new relationship' which involved performing behaviours which look like emotional reciprocity. That script no longer applies. It's a fairly usual AS pattern.

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I would seriously recommend learning to focus on what you admire about her and enjoy having in your life. Otherwise, it is going to be a long long relationship. You lose equality, you lose intimacy on a level far more difficult to endure than losing sexual intimacy alone. Essentially, you are left with no shoulder to rest your head on when you need it, because you're tasked with being the superhero - by yourself.

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