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Sexual Entitlement in Asexual-Sexual Relationships


naturerhythms

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naturerhythms
On 3/12/2018 at 12:42 AM, Sally said:

From what I've read on AVEN over about 10 years and what I've experienced as a lifelong asexual, most asexuals end up in the repulsed category after having sex over a period of time.  It simply becomes more impossible to, basically, put up  with something that you haven't wanted in the first place.  Since asexuality wasn't known years ago and many of us simply thought if we  just stuck with it, we'd "learn" to like it, now that we've recognized that we're asexual, it just hits us: why on earth am I forcing  myself to keep doing this?  I'm not messed up, I'm not abnormal, there are many others like me, and I'm tired of this."   And we tell our partners, and we stop.  Which of course causes a huge fuss in the relationship, and we get blamed for having lied  to our partner.   My partner finally realized that I hadn't lied, and we still  have a loving relationship without sex, but we're not 20 (or even 60) anymore.   

Thanks for sharing that. Your experience does sound familiar. I share below an excerpt from the book I co-authored, where I ask the sexual reader to put themselves in their partner's shoes. There are several overlaps with what you describe. In your case, of course, you found a way to continue the relationship, as some couples do. I may have shared this excerpt earlier in the thread, and forgive me if your comment was partially in response to it--but once these threads get long it's easier just to repost rather than scroll back. I went from having some of the opinions in the first few paragraphs ("Did my partner lie to me?") and gradually ended up in a place of greater understanding as described in the last few paragraphs.

 

==begin excerpt==

 

"If your partner wasn’t open with you about their sexual differences from the beginning, you may be wondering, “How could they not have realized this sooner?” or “Why couldn’t they tell me this before?” You may feel deeply betrayed and angry. When Katie came out to me, I experienced these emotions pretty intensely.

 

On one hand, it is possible that your partner knew from the beginning that they rarely or never desire sex, and they weren’t totally honest with you about this. Even some individuals who are clear about their asexuality wrestle with how soon they should “come out” to a sexual partner on a date.i But even if your partner did deceive you, try to picture yourself in their shoes for a moment. I know firsthand that this is difficult to do, especially at a time when you may still be feeling angry, hurt, and confused.ii

 

For just a moment, though, imagine the fear of identifying as asexual in a world where the vast majority of people base their most intimate partnerships largely upon sexual attraction. Imagine wanting many of the same things that most people want from intimate relationships, except sex. Imagine fearing that you might be “out of the running” with a potential partner if you come out to them. Imagine fearing never being able to find a partner who is compatible, because you have no idea how many others similar to you even exist. Imagine fearing the judgment of everyone around you, worrying that they will think you are broken in some way.iii

 

Perhaps your partner assumed that they would become more attracted to you as time went on. They, like you, heard society’s constant messages about how sex is one of the most amazing bonding—and even spiritual—experiences. They longed to experience that, too. They also came to love many other things about you. For these reasons, they were willing to take the risk of committing to someone to whom they didn’t feel physically attracted.

 

On the other hand, perhaps your partner knew something was different about them, but had never heard of asexuality or didn’t think it was a real thing. Our culture is still not supportive of open and in-depth discussion about sexuality in general, especially among youth. So we end up having to figure out a lot of things on our own, and it may take us until later in life to do so. We are all victims of this silence. Sex is discussed on the surface, and its imagery surrounds us every day, but more in-depth discussion is still limited."

 

==end excerpt==

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naturerhythms
On 3/12/2018 at 1:11 AM, Tarfeather said:

Simply by being with me, my partner is forced to consider my sexual needs. Even if I don't say a thing, just her awareness of those needs force her to take them into consideration.

I just wanted to put a double underline beneath these two sentences. They're so pertinent to any relationship where two people have significantly different levels of interest in sex, regardless of orientation. Relationship therapist David Schnarch, whose work I cite a few times, has observed a phenomenon he calls "The Devil's Pact." He calls it that because it creates hell for *both* partners, and often fails. I've experienced it myself.

 

Here's my explanation of the concept from I Fell in Love with an Asexual (endnote Schnarch's Intimacy & Desire);

"In the following example, Hiya is the partner with higher sexual interest, and Lowya is the partner with lower sexual interest. It goes something like this:

  • Hiya complains that Lowya never initiates sex.

  • Lowya says that they never have the chance to initiate because Hiya always initiates.

  • They agree that Hiya will stop initiating so that Lowya will have the opportunity to initiate.

  • Hiya becomes increasingly frustrated over time as Lowya still doesn’t initiate.

  • Lowya senses Hiya’s growing frustration, feels even more pressured by that, and uses this as a justification to avoid initiating.

According to Schnarch, the couple is likely to remain in a state of emotional gridlock until they are both willing to be extremely honest with themselves about who they are, and about what they really want from sex and from the relationship. Whether or not you have already attempted the Devil’s Pact with your partner, you may be ready for a higher level of honesty and authenticity."

This doesn't negate the fact that some couples, including asexual-sexual couples, may be able to make such arrangements work, especially if the higher-interest partner doesn't want sex that frequently.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:
  • Lowya says that they never have the chance to initiate because Hiya always initiates.

  • They agree that Hiya will stop initiating so that Lowya will have the opportunity to initiate.

Lowya has the solution in her hands. It's implicit in Hiya not initiating, that Lowya will. But she doesn't.

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naturerhythms
On 3/12/2018 at 9:25 AM, FictoVore. said:

I read that the idea that only PiV is real sex actually comes from old religious ideals that said anything other than PiV between a man and a woman is unnatural, even a man giving his wife oral (or vice versa) was considered sodomy/an unnatural sinful act for a while wasn't it? Pretty much if babies can't be made from it then you're bad and need to be punished!!

What makes this even more interesting and ironic is that some of these very same acts are often viewed as ways to avoid the technical "loss of virginity." Sexual somersaults to skirt around sin, I guess.

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On 2018-03-12 at 4:11 AM, Tarfeather said:

Simply by being with me, my partner is forced to consider my sexual needs. Even if I don't say a thing, just her awareness of those needs force her to take them into consideration. 

Unfortunately I strongly disagree with this statement. The other person is not forced to consider anything.  Even though I have made my feelings and needs clearly known my partner only considers her own needs.  Having spent the last few years mostly reading on here (not doing a lot of posting but have done a LOT of reading lol) i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am not the only person who is in this situation.

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naturerhythms
58 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Lowya has the solution in her hands. It's implicit in Hiya not initiating, that Lowya will. But she doesn't.

It does place all the power and responsibility/expectations (and thus, pressure) in one person's court, which is one reason I think it often makes things worse. I'd be curious to hear if others have experience with Devil's Pact type arrangements, and how they played out.  I personally prefer other approaches that are more collaborative, one example being agreeing in advance upon certain intimacy time(s) each week. I've found this helpful even with a sexual partner with a regular interest in sex.

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On 12.3.2018 at 9:39 AM, FictoVore. said:

Most asexuals do not feel any kind of connection from sex, in fact for many asexuals it drives a rift between any connection they feel. It makes you feel more alone (because your partner needs something that you do not want, and you give it to them to make them happy, but you've had to sacrifice your own comfort for them to have that happiness and that is NOT a good feeling). Sex for most asexuals is about as connecting as having to do a MASSIVE pile of very dirty dishes, with the dirt all baked on, and your partner is standing there not helping with the dishes but actively getting off and feeling really, really good watching you do them. Your partner NEEDS you to do this for them to be able to be happy. Imagine being in that situation, and think about how connected to your partner you'd feel during and after that even though you know you gave them something they need. That's what sex is like for most asexuals, though often it's easier at the start and gets harder as the relationship continues. Of course, the ace may lie to you to try to help you feel better and say they feel good afterwards, many are aware that it would just be cruel to give sex then say ''nah that actually sucked and I hated it'' - lies can be kinder in that situation even if you just had to do something that made you unhappy for the sake of the partner you're now lying to in the hopes they won't be unhappy.

The thing about my partner is, she doesn't do that kind of thing. She doesn't lie because she thinks it'd make me happy or anything. It's an incredibly valuable and amazing thing about her. When she doesn't enjoy sex, she will say so, and she has said it in many instances. However, there were also instances when she described it as "okay", or "slightly positive", and during some of our longer dry spells she has said that she enjoyed "being so close to me" when we did have sex. However, more recently she's stated that she feels like cuddling makes her feel more connected than sex.

 

Oh, and one more thing. I do feel that when I express my gratitude toward her, she's genuinely happy about that. So, even when she doesn't enjoy the sex (and she does say that when that's the case), even just the connection between us afterward and the good time we're having for the rest of the day (and usually the following days or weeks) can be a positive thing for us overall. It's kinda like.. even though she doesn't herself feel that sexual energy, she does feel what I feel when I'm sexually fulfilled, and that in itself is something important to her. So, paradoxically, even in the times when the sex in itself isn't that great for her, it's generally always had a positive effect on our relationship when it happened. However, a big part of that is only doing it when she's okay with it. In the last months there have been quite a few times when she was willing to compromise and I called it off because I noticed she wasn't actually okay with it. It's very important that I'm aware of her needs, because yeah, otherwise we'd just get to a point where she's unhappy. And that currently comes down to sex less than once a month. But there were also times when it was once a week, and she was content, so it varies.

 

My takeaway is that for her, it actually legitimately has changed over time. I think there actually were times when sex was overall positive for her, even if only slightly so. Now that seems to have changed into being more of a negative thing. So maybe she isn't actually asexual, but more like super dark gray sexual, making her effectively asexual 99% of the time or something. Anyway, my point is just that it'd be wrong to assume she just can't feel more connected at all through sex. It's certainly possible, just very rare, and currently it doesn't seem to be the case. It might also end up being, like you indicate, a general downward trend, where she becomes less okay with it over time.

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48 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

What makes this even more interesting and ironic is that some of these very same acts are often viewed as ways to avoid the technical "loss of virginity." Sexual somersaults to skirt around sin, I guess.

Yep one of the girls I used to work with (at a news agents, not the brothel lol) said her boyfriend didn't want to lose his virginity to someone he wasn't married to and also didn't like condoms, and as they were both underage they didn't want to get in trouble so the only sex they had was unprotected anal. She was like 14 at the time and said this really casually like everyone knew anal didn't actually count as sex D: 

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naturerhythms
11 minutes ago, RAZS said:

Unfortunately I strongly disagree with this statement. The other person is not forced to consider anything.  Even though I have made my feelings and needs clearly known my partner only considers her own needs.  Having spent the last few years mostly reading on here (not doing a lot of posting but have done a LOT of reading lol) i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am not the only person who is in this situation.

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this, having been in a mismatched situation myself. Perhaps a more accurate term in the original quote could have been "be aware of" rather than "consider"? After two people have been together for a while, they may well be aware of one another's needs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're both going to actively consider them (or communicate/act in a way that is mutually supportive). Another thing Schnarch talks about that's really fascinating is the concept of "mind mapping," which is the idea that over time, you form a mental model of your partner's desires, how they'll react to different situations, etc. It can be used to strengthen a relationship, or it can be used in non-productive and even hurtful ways when people are feeling defensive and triggered. Interesting stuff.

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21 minutes ago, RAZS said:

Unfortunately I strongly disagree with this statement. The other person is not forced to consider anything.  Even though I have made my feelings and needs clearly known my partner only considers her own needs.  Having spent the last few years mostly reading on here (not doing a lot of posting but have done a LOT of reading lol) i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am not the only person who is in this situation.

Yeah there are sadly a lot of people on AVEN who are in (or have been in) this same situation, on both sides of the fence. It was the same with my ex though he was the sexual in that relationship and I was the one who didn't want sex, but only what he wanted ever mattered. It sucks equally on either side of that equation  (whether you're the ace or the sexual whose needs are going unmet) so I'm sorry you're going through that now.

 

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Absolutely true.  I wasn't clear in my post (my brain isn't functioning well today) but absolutely you're right - I have seen many instances here of this being an issue on both sides.  Doesn't matter which side of the equation you're on feeling like this sucks

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16 minutes ago, RAZS said:

Unfortunately I strongly disagree with this statement. The other person is not forced to consider anything.  Even though I have made my feelings and needs clearly known my partner only considers her own needs.  Having spent the last few years mostly reading on here (not doing a lot of posting but have done a LOT of reading lol) i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am not the only person who is in this situation.

Might be, but my impression is that it's very easy to assume that. Rather than worrying about whether your partner is considering your needs or not, I think it's more productive to try and figure out what issues they're dealing with, and help them with that. When your partner's needs are addressed, I think it'll be easier for them to focus more on meeting yours.

 

16 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

It does place all the power and responsibility/expectations (and thus, pressure) in one person's court, which is one reason I think it often makes things worse. I'd be curious to hear if others have experience with Devil's Pact type arrangements, and how they played out.  I personally prefer other approaches that are more collaborative, one example being agreeing in advance upon certain intimacy time(s) each week. I've found this helpful even with a sexual partner with a regular interest in sex.

The agreeing on intimacy thing is a really good idea if it's non-binding. Really, the actual intimacy is much less important than knowing your partner cares about you enough to devote some time to that intimacy. Even if you end up doing something else in that time slot.

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17 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Might be, but my impression is that it's very easy to assume that. Rather than worrying about whether your partner is considering your needs or not, I think it's more productive to try and figure out what issues they're dealing with, and help them with that. When your partner's needs are addressed, I think it'll be easier for them to focus more on meeting yours.

My partners needs Are being addressed lmao I avoid all physical contact I even sleep in another part of the house when I'm feeling that frustration.   Very easy for you to assume things I see

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naturerhythms
11 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Anyway, my point is just that it'd be wrong to assume she just can't feel more connected at all through sex. It's certainly possible, just very rare, and currently it doesn't seem to be the case. It might also end up being, like you indicate, a general downward trend, where she becomes less okay with it over time.

Yeah, these things can be complicated and seem to vary a lot. I had the experience where my partner became less okay with things over time. I viewed her "going along with things" for a while, before she became more honest with me, as an act of love. Once I realized and fully accepted that she really wasn't going to enjoy it, no matter how many sexual advice books I read or workshops/classes I took, I didn't feel like it was very loving of either of us to ask her to continue. But it took a while to get to that place.

 

On the other hand, someone in a related social media group recently explained that they once identified as sex repulsed, but once they discovered asexuality, it took the pressure off to enjoy sex, and they ended up finding that they like it sometimes. However, this is just one case and I have no idea how common it is.

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naturerhythms
5 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

The agreeing on intimacy thing is a really good idea if it's non-binding. Really, the actual intimacy is much less important than knowing your partner cares about you enough to devote some time to that intimacy. Even if you end up doing something else in that time slot.

Good points. With my current partner, we set an intention to show up in the bedroom and "see what happens" with no specific goals. Sometimes one of us may be tired or stressed, and so that takes the pressure off. Sometimes we end up needing to talk or process something, which might delay sex until later. Sometimes we negotiate things that will take less energy for one or both of us. And yes, simply knowing that my partner is showing up is comforting.

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10 minutes ago, RAZS said:

My partners needs Are being addressed lmao I avoid all physical contact I even sleep in another part of the house when in feeling that frustration.   Very easy for you to assumethings I see

Hm.. Yeah, I think you're right that it's certainly possible that your partner genuinely doesn't care. However, I think in that case there isn't an option but to leave. So, considering you're still giving your partner a shot, you should start with a benefit of the doubt mindset and assume they do care. That's the mindset with the highest chance of success. If even that doesn't work, there's really nothing to do but to quit.

 

11 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

Yeah, these things can be complicated and seem to vary a lot. I had the experience where my partner became less okay with things over time. I viewed her "going along with things" for a while, before she became more honest with me, as an act of love. Once I realized and fully accepted that she really wasn't going to enjoy it, no matter how many sexual advice books I read or workshops/classes I took, I didn't feel like it was very loving of either of us to ask her to continue. But it took a while to get to that place.

IMO it's a simple cost / benefit calculation. If sex has an overall positive effect on both partners, it's worthwhile, otherwise it's not. Whether it's "loving" or not, well, I don't really care. I feel that in the attempt to appear like a good, caring and loving partner, one can end up damaging a relationship, whereas if you're simply pragmatic and do what's best for both partners, even if it "appears" selfish and uncaring, you get the best result for both people involved. The key to that is of course open communication. If you're shitty and selfish, but you're completely honest and open about what you want to your partner, then there's no danger of abuse. In fact, that danger is much greater when you pretend to be altruistic and caring, but work toward your selfish goals in secret.

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naturerhythms
22 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Really, the actual intimacy is much less important than knowing your partner cares about you enough to devote some time to that intimacy. Even if you end up doing something else in that time slot.

One more thing your statement reminded me of: That underlying sense of trust that your partner cares about you, illustrated by devoting some time, really is key. For a long time, my asexual partner did show up regularly, and we got along quite well. After we got more honest with each other, and her willingness to show up went down, I perceived that as her not really caring about me. Even though, as we'd eventually discover, her lack of interest in sex was tied to a lack of experiencing sexual attraction. (Just to be clear, I understand that these two are linked for the majority of, but not all people who identify as asexual--as some people don't experience attraction but still have an interest in sex.)

 

After we separated and I began a relationship with a sexual person who likes sex, it took me a long time to develop trust in my new partner as someone who cared about my sexual desires. To be clear, I don't blame my former asexual partner for this, but it was a result of the relationship dynamics that I needed to process. (That's part of the "recovery" I write about in the book--even though I took the word out of the subtitle b/c it created confusion.) Even though on a cerebral level, I knew that both my previous and current partners cared about me, the confusing sexual dynamics contributed to some emotional and thinking patterns that I had to work through.

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naturerhythms
8 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

In fact, that danger is much greater when you pretend to be altruistic and caring, but work toward your selfish goals in secret.

Good point. You might be familiar with the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover (not to be judged by the sensational title alone--I cite him at least once in my book). This is a significant theme of the book.

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