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Sexual Entitlement in Asexual-Sexual Relationships


naturerhythms

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3 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Yes but a lot of sexual people with slightly different libidos or sexual preferences (ie one prefers to give oral more than receive or whatever) can still make it work as long as that basic level of sexual compatibility is there, as in, they both want each other sexually at least sometimes. And for a sexual, if they end up with a sexual partner who they're sexually incompatible with, yes they may end up breaking up but there are hundreds (thousands, millions, lol) of other people out there who they'll have a higher chance of sexual compatibility with. Whereas for an asexual, they will always be stuck with total sexual incompatibility with the vast majority of the sexual population is automatic unless they can be lucky enough to find another ace!

 

But yes I agree, for a lower desire sexual it still sucks having to deal with that crap!

It's funny, but I really wonder about sexual "compatibility".  It's like, *we're* "compatible" for as long as we 'agree'.  I guess I don't like it because it seems that if we can't agree on sex MOST of the time, then the entire relationship is...incompatible...?  

 

To *me*, it's kind of like saying that unless *I* can have dessert, I don't want the rest of the meal...and THEN complaint that I'm hungry....*scratches head...watches lice fly out of hair...)

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4 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Ah yes, the lovely man who said that a woman isn't emotionally or sexually mature if she can't have vaginal orgasms :P He must have been super smart, haha

LOL!  I once read about a woman who said that she would personally love to give Freud a black eye...

 

...and I think she has a LOT of company, in that regard!  

 

Sadly, there are still many who believe in his...ummm...'theories' *gag*

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21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

This seems about as biased a sample as @Telecaster68 saying that there were more frustrated sexuals in ace-sexual relationships. Those who don't have a problem are less likely to speak up. 

Well, I've been here since 2013 and talked to many hundreds of asexuals, both in sexual and non-sexual relationships, and single, etc etc. Believe me, if there are hundreds of thousands of happy sex loving aces out there I'd love to meet them and hear their stories, but for the most part, all the many, many aces I have met who have compromised sexually were not that happy about it, because it's a fact that asexuals just don't desire partnered sexual intimacy for pleasure. Asexuals  (both happy and unhappy) are more likely to end up on AVEN, by the way, than sexual partners, because AVEN is a site for the sharing of the asexual experience in general. It's not just somewhere where asexuals who are unhappy compromising would end up. Whereas for sexual partners, it's far more likely that the unhappy ones will end up here than the happy ones. HOWEVER, it's still a fact that most sexual people prefer a sexual relationship to a sexless one.

 

@Telecaster68 is correct if you mean he was saying there are more frustrated sexuals in mixed relationships than there are happy ones in mixed relationships (even if they don't end up on AVEN it's just a fact that sexual incompatibility will always leave people with some level of dissatisfaction) but they may not be what you're meaning here, I'm not sure?

 

It's not really biased when it's a fact though :P

 

21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

A perfectly matched sexual relationship is a rare thing. Most times couples have someone wanting more sex than the other and the other sometimes simply not wanting it. Having sex when you don't want it is obviously draining - even to a sexual!

While a perfectly matched sexual relationship is rare, many sexual people who fall in love are still compatible enough that they find a flow that works for them. Two people being in love while being totally sexually incompatible is a lot rarer, and will almost always end up with one very unhappy partner (either the ace or the sexual), and often they both will experience levels of dissatisfaction regardless of who is doing the most compromising. Of course though, yes, there are sexuals who end up in sexually incompatible relationships. It's just that that's almost ALWAYS the case for an ace with a sexual. 

 

And yes, sex that someone does not want is indeed draining for a sexual too. No one is denying that. But a romantic asexual will ALWAYS be in a situation where they have to have sex they don't want or risk losing their relationship, or having an unhappy sexual partner who is being forced to live in celibacy. Of course there are exceptions, but they are a lot rarer.

 

21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

In the sense that if I am not in the mood for sex, but I agree, it will feel intrusive, exhausting and the only thing I want is for it to be over and not expected again, forgetting that it wasn't expectation, but me volunteering that got me there - for reasons of my own perception.

Difference is that an asexual will NEVER be 'in the mood for sex' for their own pleasure. A sexual person will be at least sometimes, even if they have to find a new relationship to get that. The ace will still be back to square one as soon as they get into a new relationship, unless they can find an asexual partner or the very rare sexual partner who is happy to go without sex.

 

21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Honesty is very necessary in an intimate relationship, even if what we have to say may not be what the other wants to hear. "I know I am supposed to like it, but this doesn't feel good" starts a healthy conversation toward the well being of both.

Agreed. It's just not always that simple when you're first starting out in the world, have very little or no sexual experience, and have never heard of asexuality. But I've explained that extensively in other threads so won't go into it again here.

 

Only just worked out I wasn't replying to @vega57, it's hard when you both have the same ava lol.

 

21 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

you can verify this with a marriage counsellor

I worked in a brothel for two years haha. You're practically a marriage counselor a lot of the time, just one who has to have sex with the guy once he's finished moaning about his marriage :P

 

What I'm saying is that while sexual incompatibility will indeed be an issue for sexuals at times, it's an issue for most asexuals 100% of the time unless they can find an ace partner.

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8 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

This seems about as biased a sample as @Telecaster68 saying that there were more frustrated sexuals in ace-sexual relationships. Those who don't have a problem are less likely to speak up. 

People who don't have a problem have no reason to speak up.  But people who do have a problem may learn from others not to speak up. If they do have a problem, it's not "polite" to do so.  So, they suffer in silence.  Women especially have still this problem because there seems to still be an unspoken 'rule' that women aren't supposed to complain.  While we may know of many women who are outspoken, there are many more who lack the confidence to speak out.  

 

If people in general believed that they wouldn't be judged or seen in a negative light for speaking up, believe me, a lot more people would be speaking up!  

 

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A perfectly matched sexual relationship is a rare thing. Most times couples have someone wanting more sex than the other and the other sometimes simply not wanting it. Having sex when you don't want it is obviously draining - even to a sexual! This does not necessarily mean that it drains you even when you do it for other reasons. I have usually not seen my ace feel drained from it at all, unless it gets too frequent, which it doesn't, anymore.

Agreed.

 

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Honesty is very necessary in an intimate relationship, even if what we have to say may not be what the other wants to hear. "I know I am supposed to like it, but this doesn't feel good" starts a healthy conversation toward the well being of both.

LOL!  I'm sorry I'm laughing, but my late husband could have given a rat's ass about "honesty".  As long as he was getting his dick waxed several times a day, everything else was a VERY distant second place......

 

And I'm sorry to say, that there a LOT of people out there like that.  Sex is THAT important to them, that everything else pales in comparison...

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19 minutes ago, vega57 said:

It's funny, but I really wonder about sexual "compatibility".  It's like, *we're* "compatible" for as long as we 'agree'.  I guess I don't like it because it seems that if we can't agree on sex MOST of the time, then the entire relationship is...incompatible...?  

 

To *me*, it's kind of like saying that unless *I* can have dessert, I don't want the rest of the meal...and THEN complaint that I'm hungry....*scratches head...watches lice fly out of hair...)

hmmm, well to me, sexual compatibility is more that you both desire sex with each other enough of the time that one partner isn't left feeling like they're not really satisfied most of the time (because that's when one partner will become unhappy). For many couples, even if one wants a lot more sex, they can find a balance where they both end up satisfied. This is usually a LOT more common at the start of a relationship, and may peter off after a few years for one or both of the partners. I mean, let's face it, almost every person you meet will have had quite a few previous relationships these days, so there would have been multiple compatibility issues that drove them apart. But at least they can move onto another relationship where they're compatible for at least some of the time!! It's a bit different when aces and sexuals are dating because sexually, they'll *never* be compatible, even if they're compatible in every other way!

 

My partner and I are still perfectly sexually compatible, but we've only been together since mid-way through 2016. It could turn out that we become less compatible as time goes on, but for now everything is still working perfectly with no issues on either side. We're so compatible in every other way that even if a sexual issue did arise, I'm sure we could talk about it and sort it out ^_^ for us it's not so much about a conscious agreement, our bodies and desires etc just work in perfect unison (even though we're at a distance but that doesn't stop it from working).. so yeah, our compatibility is just that our bodies want the same things at the same times and we're both very happy with that :)

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9 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

hmmm, well to me, sexual compatibility is more that you both desire sex with each other enough of the time that one partner isn't left feeling like they're not really satisfied most of the time (because that's when one partner will become unhappy). For many couples, even if one wants a lot more sex, they can find a balance where they both end up satisfied. This is usually a LOT more common at the start of a relationship, and may peter off after a few years for one or both of the partners. I mean, let's face it, almost every person you meet will have had quite a few previous relationships these days, so there would have been multiple compatibility issues that drove them apart. But at least they can move onto another relationship where they're compatible for at least some of the time!! It's a bit different when aces and sexuals are dating because sexually, they'll *never* be compatible, even if they're compatible in every other way!

 

 

And that's part of the problem!  At least some of the time...what dictates "some"?  I mean, I have a friend who was sexually active with her husband for about 10 years. He lost his job...started drinking.  A lot.  They didn't have sex for 10 more years.  She hung in there, and 12 years later, he simply reached over to her one morning and...well...the rest is history.  

 

But during that 12 year 'dry spell', people COULD have easily said, "You're not sexually 'compatible'.  GET OUT NOW!"  

 

I understand that sex can be 'fluid'.  But does that mean that 'compatibility' is fluid...too? And, if that's the truth, then why even bother getting married, when marriage isn't supposed to be...'fluid'?  

 

My partner and I are still perfectly sexually compatible, but we've only been together since mid-way through 2016. It could turn out that we become less compatible as time goes on, but for now everything is still working perfectly with no issues on either side. We're so compatible in every other way that even if a sexual issue did arise, I'm sure we could talk about it and sort it out ^_^ for us it's not so much about a conscious agreement, our bodies and desires etc just work in perfect unison (even though we're at a distance but that doesn't stop it from working).. so yeah, our compatibility is just that our bodies want the same things at the same times and we're both very happy with that :)

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12 hours ago, vega57 said:

So many people these days use phrases such as, "I deserve...." or "So and so OWES me..."  They don't even have to say those words, but it's clear that they feel that way.

This segment of the conversation inspired a few additional thoughts. I've seen variations on some of this elsewhere on this site, but it's pertinent to the topic of "sexual entitlement" here.
 
Related to this language, I've seen a few conversations get hung up on the semantics of "need," and whether sex fits into that box. Those debates can go on forever.

For many sexual people, sex is a very strong biologically- and emotionally-driven urge, tied to thousands of years of evolution and reproduction. True, we won't die from lack of it--unless it is one of our only sources of regular physical touch, as touch overall has been shown to be an important component of health--but it sure is a strong desire. Many of us don't feel complete or fulfilled without it. We are going to get grouchy and quite unhappy if we don't have it.
 
For many asexual people, sex isn't a need at all. And it must be quite frustrating--and sometimes lonely feeling--to live in a world where so many people see it as a need.
 
But even if two people don't agree on what constitutes a need, they can hopefully at least agree that something is really, really important to one of them for happiness, and difficult for them to live without. It is valid for at least one of them, even if not valid for the other.
 
That being said, this doesn't give a sexually motivated person the right over another person's body whenever they want it. No matter whether or how they feel they've "earned" it, or whether they "deserve" it. Or how much of a need it is. At any given time, there needs to be mutual consent.

At the same time, I think that a person who is not sexually motivated, who rarely or never consents to sex, should a) grant their sexually motivated partner the freedom to seek sex elsewhere if they wish, or b) recognize lack of sex as a perfectly valid reason for ending the relationship, if they're unable to reach a mutually acceptable compromise. If they continue to demand monogamy even while being unwilling to have sex, they're complicit in perpetuating part of that "covert contract," but in a one-sided way. And in my opinion, this blend is attempting to exercise an unfair sort of ownership and control over their partner's body.

But just as a sexually motivated partner cannot make anyone want to have sex with them, they have no control over whether their partner will see their needs as valid. The best they can do is to communicate how important sex is to their happiness, and to play their role in making covert agreements more explicit.
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11 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

I think most people in this situation aren't going to end up with issues anyway if they're literally fine with sex! It's only when the ace really isn't comfortable with it though forces themselves to do it because they love their partner (or stops doing it all together) that the issues actually begin. And the majority of aces are more in the category of not being that comfortable with it and feeling drained from it etc, even if they're 'neutral' about it.

Good points. It's hard to know how many of aces in different categories are in relationships with sexual partners, but here is a quote I added to the revised version of the book, from the 2015 Asexual Census report:

 

"Approximately a third of ace respondents feel repulsed about personal engagement in sex (36.6%), while nearly half of the respondents felt either indifferent (28.5%) or uncertain (21.3%). Only 7.5% of the ace respondents had a favorable feeling about personal engagement in sex, in contrast to the 67.4% of non-ace respondents with favorable feelings about personal engagement in sex."i

In the same survey, around 41% of aces (used to refer to everyone on the asexual spectrum) said they'd be willing to consider sex with a partner who wanted it. Hopefully, not too many of those who end up in relationships with sexual partners (at least ones who like sex regularly) fall into the "repulsed" category.

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11 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Fortunately there are some mixed couples out there who can make it work where both are happy, and I think that's all anyone can hope for

Increased openness to different family arrangements (poly, etc.) will hopefully provide more options, too. And I don't take for granted that I'm in the easier "99%" when it comes to orientation.

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11 hours ago, vega57 said:

None of this is usually explained in sex ed courses.  It's just the basic explanation of the reproductive process with a little bit of 'other' thrown in there, telling us that we're "going" to do this at some point in our lives.  

Don't get me started on sex ed... I don't have time to write another book right now. :) In short, I agree with what you're saying.

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11 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Honesty is very necessary in an intimate relationship, even if what we have to say may not be what the other wants to hear. "I know I am supposed to like it, but this doesn't feel good" starts a healthy conversation toward the well being of both.

I'll be very transparent here--I personally find that the bedroom can be one of the most challenging places to be honest, and to hear honesty. At the same time, practice has made it easier. And following the initial difficult step, the honesty it has generally made things a lot better. When I know my partner is comfortable saying "no" or negotiating, I can also wholeheartedly trust and enjoy their "yes," and vice versa.

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26 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

 

In the same survey, around 41% of aces (used to refer to everyone on the asexual spectrum) said they'd be willing to consider sex with a partner who wanted it. Hopeful

Was there anything in the survey that alluded to how often that 41% would be willing to 'consider' it?   I mean, I'd be willing to consider having sex with a partner once in a blue moon.  But if my partner wanted to have sex with me several times a week, I'd be dropping out of the 41% pretty quickly!  

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10 hours ago, vega57 said:

And that's part of the problem!  At least some of the time...what dictates "some"?  I mean, I have a friend who was sexually active with her husband for about 10 years. He lost his job...started drinking.  A lot.  They didn't have sex for 10 more years.  She hung in there, and 12 years later, he simply reached over to her one morning and...well...the rest is history.  

 

But during that 12 year 'dry spell', people COULD have easily said, "You're not sexually 'compatible'.  GET OUT NOW!"  

 

I understand that sex can be 'fluid'.  But does that mean that 'compatibility' is fluid...too? And, if that's the truth, then why even bother getting married, when marriage isn't supposed to be...'fluid'?  

 

 

People change all throughout their lives. This is just a fact. Some times, sex will happen more and other times, it will happen less. That's generally considered acceptable. And compatibility doesn't change, as long as both are still happy.

 

But, as people change, yes... compatibility can change. Maybe two die hard atheists get together and after twenty years, one finds religion and the other is still very much an atheist. Maybe two child-free people get together and one day one of them decides they really need a kid, but the other stays child-free. Maybe two sexuals with high libidos get together and one stops wanting sex for a long time and the other can't take it. That's part of the risk of relationships. However, navigating changes and trying to find ways to make it still work is part of the work people put into them. Only sometimes are they such huge changes that they are deal breakers. No point avoiding the relationship just because there is a risk involved. 

 

35 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

 

In the same survey, around 41% of aces (used to refer to everyone on the asexual spectrum) said they'd be willing to consider sex with a partner who wanted it. Hopefully, not too many of those who end up in relationships with sexual partners (at least ones who like sex regularly) fall into the "repulsed" category.

 

Honestly, I'd rather say hopefully not too many mixed relationships happen where there isn't open communication on feelings from the start. Indifferent, unsure and repulsed can become difficult to work with. Favorable is the easiest, but can still have difficulties. All of the above can work if there is self-knowledge, open communication and honesty on both sides from the start. And finding out after a while can work, but it's very hard. So, I'm glad discussions on mixed relationships and asexuality are starting to become more common. That way more people can start out going in with both eyes open. 

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3 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Was there anything in the survey that alluded to how often that 41% would be willing to 'consider' it?  

There's a lot of info in the survey, and it's pretty interesting, so here's the link: https://asexualcensus.wordpress.com/ .

I don't recall that question being on there, but it's an interesting one.

If I remember correctly, a few of the questions re: personal attitudes about sex were broken up into asexual/demi/gray/non-ace in two of the earlier surveys, but lumped into ace/non-ace for 2015 (the most recent for which data are currently available, and the one I cited). I wish they had been broken out again, but it's probably a lot of work and I don't have time to volunteer for it, so I'm not complaining.

 

The sample size is quite large, but skewed toward the younger end and internet users.

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11 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Ah yes, the lovely man who said that a woman isn't emotionally or sexually mature if she can't have vaginal orgasms :P He must have been super smart, haha

While I appreciate some of his theories re: defense mechanisms, I'm also very glad we've started moving past some of his other ideas.

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50 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:
Related to this language, I've seen a few conversations get hung up on the semantics of "need," and whether sex fits into that box. Those debates can go on forever.

For many sexual people, sex is a very strong biologically- and emotionally-driven urge, tied to thousands of years of evolution and reproduction. True, we won't die from lack of it--unless it is one of our only sources of regular physical touch, as touch overall has been shown to be an important component of health--but it sure is a strong desire. Many of us don't feel complete or fulfilled without it. We are going to get grouchy and quite unhappy if we don't have it.
Let's say for argument sake that sex (for some) IS in fact, a "need'...AND that it's a "very strong biologically-and emotionally-driven urge...AND that it's a "strong desire"...AND that many don't feel "complete or fulfilled without it"...AND that you're going to become "grouchy and quite unhappy if you don't get it...
 
...does any of this entitle anyone to sex?  
 
Quote

For many asexual people, sex isn't a need at all. And it must be quite frustrating--and sometimes lonely feeling--to live in a world where so many people see it as a need.

It doesn't seem to matter whether  one is asexual, or a Low Desire sexual.  One can be asexual and not desire sex at all, whereas, an LD sexual may desire sex, but not at the same frequency as the higher desire sexual.  Either way, the higher desire sexual also experiences the same frustrations and loneliness, albeit not for the same reasons as the asexual.  The LD sexual may still see sex as a 'need', but simply not 'needing' it as often as the higher driven sexual.  
 
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But even if two people don't agree on what constitutes a need, they can hopefully at least agree that something is really, really important to one of them for happiness, and difficult for them to live without. It is valid for at least one of them, even if not valid for the other.

I can agree that a certain amount of sex may be paramount to my partner's happiness.  But even if I agree, it doesn't automatically mean that I will comply.  I've seen many posts where a sexual will express complete frustration at his or her partner's lack of understanding and/or acceptance as to how important sex is for the sexual.  But once again, understanding and acceptance does not mean compliance.   
 
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That being said, this doesn't give a sexually motivated person the right over another person's body whenever they want it. No matter whether or how they feel they've "earned" it, or whether they "deserve" it. Or how much of a need it is. At any given time, there needs to be mutual consent.

Exactly.  Many people see sex as a "right" that they have.  They don't seem to understand that they don't have an automatic "right" to something that someone else owns.  
 
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At the same time, I think that a person who is not sexually motivated, who rarely or never consents to sex, should a) grant their sexually motivated partner the freedom to seek sex elsewhere if they wish, or b) recognize lack of sex as a perfectly valid reason for ending the relationship, if they're unable to reach a mutually acceptable compromise. If they continue to demand monogamy even while being unwilling to have sex, they're complicit in perpetuating part of that "covert contract," but in a one-sided way. And in my opinion, this blend is attempting to exercise an unfair sort of ownership and control over their partner's body.  

This paragraph has been discussed before on AVEN.  One of the problems with opening up the relationship is that it's difficult to keep emotions out of a sexual relationship.  *You* may be able to have a sex-only relationship with someone, but you can't control the other person and prevent them from 'catching feelings'.  The whole thing can become very messy.  

 

Sex is not necessarily a constant for many people.  As their lives change, and they change and their partner changes, sex will probably change as well.  So, why base something that is supposed to be more of a permanent relationship, on something that can be so changeable?  

 

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But just as a sexually motivated partner cannot make anyone want to have sex with them, they have no control over whether their partner will see their needs as valid. The best they can do is to communicate how important sex is to their happiness, and to play their role in making covert agreements more explicit.

How would you suggest doing this, since sex can be so changeable?  

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43 minutes ago, Serran said:

People change all throughout their lives. This is just a fact. Some times, sex will happen more and other times, it will happen less. That's generally considered acceptable. And compatibility doesn't change, as long as both are still happy.

Yes, I agree.  

 

Quote

But, as people change, yes... compatibility can change. Maybe two die hard atheists get together and after twenty years, one finds religion and the other is still very much an atheist. Maybe two child-free people get together and one day one of them decides they really need a kid, but the other stays child-free. Maybe two sexuals with high libidos get together and one stops wanting sex for a long time and the other can't take it. That's part of the risk of relationships. However, navigating changes and trying to find ways to make it still work is part of the work people put into them. Only sometimes are they such huge changes that they are deal breakers. No point avoiding the relationship just because there is a risk involved. 

As for the die-hard atheists, I think they can still be compatible as long as they don't try to change each other.  For the child-free couple, that may be a bit more difficult to navigate.  It's an area where you really can't compromise.  

 

Not saying that avoiding relationships/marriage is the answer.  Then again, what is the answer?  

 

Quote

Honestly, I'd rather say hopefully not too many mixed relationships happen where there isn't open communication on feelings from the start. Indifferent, unsure and repulsed can become difficult to work with. Favorable is the easiest, but can still have difficulties. All of the above can work if there is self-knowledge, open communication and honesty on both sides from the start. And finding out after a while can work, but it's very hard. So, I'm glad discussions on mixed relationships and asexuality are starting to become more common. That way more people can start out going in with both eyes open. 

Oh, I agree that going in with both eyes open is a noble goal to strive for.  But it's not always doable.   I mean, how well do people REALLY know themselves at 25 years old?  We would hope the answer is, "Fairly well."  And, how well do people REALLY know how to communicate?  How honest are people about their own feelings?  

 

Seems to be that these days, it's more and more like a crap shoot!  You roll the dice and take your chances...

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2 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

Good points. It's hard to know how many of aces in different categories are in relationships with sexual partners, but here is a quote I added to the revised version of the book, from the 2015 Asexual Census report:

 

"Approximately a third of ace respondents feel repulsed about personal engagement in sex (36.6%), while nearly half of the respondents felt either indifferent (28.5%) or uncertain (21.3%). Only 7.5% of the ace respondents had a favorable feeling about personal engagement in sex, in contrast to the 67.4% of non-ace respondents with favorable feelings about personal engagement in sex."i

In the same survey, around 41% of aces (used to refer to everyone on the asexual spectrum) said they'd be willing to consider sex with a partner who wanted it. Hopefully, not too many of those who end up in relationships with sexual partners (at least ones who like sex regularly) fall into the "repulsed" category.

Hmm well, generally ONLY 'favorable' aces are okay with sex long term (and the 'favourable' is a difficult category because many who ID as 'sex favourable asexual' are basing their asexuality around a misconception of how normal sexual people function, yet if they didn't have that misconception they never would have ended up IDing as ace). You certainly don't have to be repulsed though to find it very, very difficult to compromise on sex.

 

2 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

But even if two people don't agree on what constitutes a need, they can hopefully at least agree that something is really, really important to one of them for happiness, and difficult for them to live without. It is valid for at least one of them, even if not valid for the other.

 

2 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

I think that a person who is not sexually motivated, who rarely or never consents to sex, should a) grant their sexually motivated partner the freedom to seek sex elsewhere if they wish, or b) recognize lack of sex as a perfectly valid reason for ending the relationship, if they're unable to reach a mutually acceptable compromise. If they continue to demand monogamy even while being unwilling to have sex, they're complicit in perpetuating part of that "covert contract," but in a one-sided way

An aspect of this that is very often overlooked is that NOT having sex (nor having any expectation of sex) is very, very important to the happiness of the asexual. It's just as important and integral to the asexual's happiness and fulfillment as the need of the sexual person for sex. I know this often upsets sexual people here, having had this convo many times before, but can you see how, for a romantically monogamous asexual in the situations you've outlined here they're literally only left with choices that will cause them pain and unhappiness? The choices are: Have sex that will be compromising your own needs and happiness, allow your partner to have sex with other people (which is deeply, deeply painful for a monogamous ace), or accept that your partner will leave. That's it.  So the asexual is getting a lot of agency taken away from them, and is being forced into a situation in which any outcome will cause them pain and unhappiness, whereas the sexual person here has three choices that will eventually lead to them having their needs met: Either the ace is giving them sex, the ace is at home alone crying while the sexual is having sex with other people, or the ace is single and knowing they're going to end up in the exact same situation again as a the price they have to pay for the love they desire, while the sexual is finding a more sexually compatible partner. 

 

No, I am NOT saying that the sexual should just give up their own needs then and live in celibacy, it's just that I often see sexual people saying to/about aces ''If you can't meet your sexual partners sexual needs, which are integral to their happiness, you should allow them to have sex with other people, or accept they will leave you'' and you're saying exactly that here. Yet you're overlooking the fact that the asexual person's need to NOT have sex (and to be free from the expectation of it) is just as integral to their happiness as the need for sex is to sexuals. And having to have sex, for many, many aces (not just repulsed ones) makes them just as unhappy as NOT having sex makes the sexual person.

 

Yes, of course, the ace also has the choice to leave, but I'm more just trying to emphasize the way that sexual people often overlook the fact that asexuals also have needs that are integral to their own happiness which are almost never taken into consideration in comments like the one you made above. It's always ''the need for sex is integral to the happiness of sexual people, you need to find a way to compromise or let your partner go'' while completely overlooking the fact that ace has exactly the same level of need, but on the opposite side of the fence.

 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer #notall. obviously this is not true of all ace/sexual relationships, nor all ace/sexual people. Also, yes, obviously sexual people often have to compromise in their relationships with other sexuals as well. I am specifically discussing ace/sexual relationships here though, not sexual/sexual relationships. And yes, there are sexuals here who choose to live in celibacy instead of leaving their ace partner who won't give them sex, I am not trying to discredit them in any way by my above comments. This is aimed specifically and only at those with the attitude that an ace needs to find a way to give regular sex, allow their partner to have sex with other people, or accept that their partner will leave because their needs aren't being met, while overlooking the fact that the (monogamous) aces needs are not being met in any way in any these 'compromises'.

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Sometimes even doctors are shit at educating people about any of this stuff, lol. At 17 I went to a doctor crying because sex was so painful, once it started I just wanted it to be over, and I just couldn't bring myself to enjoy part of it. Instead of saying 'Just don't have it, that's always an option' ...

In fairness, most people would probably consider that shit advice.

 

Obviously a lot of issues could be resolved by just "not having sex" -- pregnancy, disease, etc... but that just isn't a viable option for many, and would be regarded more as overlooking the problem rather than actually solving it.  Usually when we pay for doctors, it's to do the latter, not the former.

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8 hours ago, Philip027 said:

In fairness, most people would probably consider that shit advice.

 

Obviously a lot of issues could be resolved by just "not having sex" -- pregnancy, disease, etc... but that just isn't a viable option for many, and would be regarded more as overlooking the problem rather than actually solving it.  Usually when we pay for doctors, it's to do the latter, not the former.

This is true. Though, for a serious medical issue that makes it hard, there should be better advice than just suffer til you stop suffering on your own. 

 

In my case, the physical discomfort sex caused seems to have been almost totally from lack of mental/emotional arousal, so figuring out a way to like it would be sound advice.. once I began experiencing sexual attraction, all the physical issues seem to have gone away. But, Pan's case isn't as easy and doctors really should have taken her pain more seriously than that. Even if they were to suggest figuring out how to do it without pain, there are medical methods for experimentation. I'd even consider suggesting sexual surrogates (medical professionals who have sexual encounters with patients to help them overcome issues and yes this is not considered prostitution, since it's a medical professional) more sound advice for people who want to try to figure out if it's possible to have sex without pain, even though I would find the entire idea of that awkward at best if anyone suggested it to me. 

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On 10.3.2018 at 4:42 AM, Chimeric said:

If our partners don't want sex as a means of communicating love and intimacy, then why on Earth would we try to force sex on them as a means of communicating love and intimacy? That totally defeats the purpose, and in doing, makes it explicitly about the physical aspect of sex, which is exactly what we tell them it isn't about.

You're basically asking, whether the feeling of being more connected to your asexual partner after sex, is a placebo effect or whether it's something your partner actually feels. I genuinely don't have the answer.

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14 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

You're basically asking, whether the feeling of being more connected to your asexual partner after sex, is a placebo effect or whether it's something your partner actually feels. I genuinely don't have the answer.

Oh, no, I'm not asking this at all. For an ace person who's just been made to have sex with someone, there is no feeling of being more connected. Shoot, for a non-ace person who's just been made to have sex with someone, there is no feeling of being more connected. That feeling is within the allosexual individual who's just finished coercing/etc. his or her partner into sleeping with them. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The question comes from the idea that we would continually ask this scenario to occur.

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23 hours ago, vega57 said:

...does any of this entitle anyone to sex?

Nope. Looks like you saw my answer to this a bit further down.

 

23 hours ago, vega57 said:

But once again, understanding and acceptance does not mean compliance.  

Yes, very important not to get these confused.  Note also that I used the words "agree that something is really, really important to one of them..." and not "understand." My current belief is that it's often not possible for an asexual partner who doesn't like sex and a sexual partner who likes sex to understand each other, even if they agree (and accept) each other. I've seen conversations like those you're talking about. Only if they had the same desires would they fully understand each other, and accommodating each other's desires would naturally be easier.

 

23 hours ago, vega57 said:

It doesn't seem to matter whether  one is asexual, or a Low Desire sexual.  One can be asexual and not desire sex at all, whereas, an LD sexual may desire sex, but not at the same frequency as the higher desire sexual.

Glad to see you making this point. I worried that I'd bore the snot out of some people when I included sections like "Attraction, Desire, Libido & Arousal," and "Asexuals & Sexuals: Diverse & Overlapping Groups" in the book, but they are important things to understand. I'm still developing my own understanding. While probably not that common, given what I know now, I can even imagine cases where an asexual partner likes sex more than than a sexual partner.

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23 hours ago, vega57 said:

One of the problems with opening up the relationship is that it's difficult to keep emotions out of a sexual relationship.  *You* may be able to have a sex-only relationship with someone, but you can't control the other person and prevent them from 'catching feelings'.  The whole thing can become very messy.  

Definitely. NRE or New Relationship Energy. I'll share a few paragraphs I wrote in a section entitled "Sexual-Asexual Open Relationships: Unique Challenges." In the book, "asexual partner" is referring to an asexual partner who has little or no interest in sex (all the stuff on diversity of the asexual community is laid out earlier in the book, and a few paraphrases/reiterations have been added in the revised edition).

"In cases where two individuals have a strong relationship and also share a mutual attraction, the freedom and excitement of being with others can enhance their bond. While one or both of them get energy from being with others, they still get a mutual charge from being with each other.

However, in a case where only one partner experiences sexual attraction to the other, a different dynamic exists. An outside sexual partner offers a powerful connection that your primary partner may be unable or unwilling to offer at all. Therefore, the sexual partner may present an especially stark contrast to your asexual partner. Even if you do your best to avoid comparing your asexual partner to your sexual partner(s), some of this energy may still come across. Because of this, opening up a relationship with a potentially asexual partner may require additional considerations..."

"NRE is challenging enough for couples who can regularly confirm their bond through mutually connective lovemaking. For couples who cannot, it may take even more effort to manage, and may rely more upon bonds established through other types of intimacy. Many asexuals on the AVEN website have discussed the pain of being unable to provide their partner with what they want. Many such comments aren’t even in the context of open relationships, where jealousy, insecurity, and comparison take consistent efforts to manage..."

"Know that your primary partner might wish to explore with other people, too. Even if it’s not sexual, they may still want to go on romantic dates and spend significant time with others. They may enjoy doing things with another partner that they have never enjoyed doing with you. Also be prepared for the slight possibility that they will want to explore sex with someone else, even if they rarely or never want it with you..."

--From I Fell in Love with an Asexual, by Dave Wheitner & Evan Ocean

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On 3/10/2018 at 10:49 AM, Serran said:

People change all throughout their lives...No point avoiding the relationship just because there is a risk involved. 

I agree. I'm very glad I had the relationship I did with my asexual partner, even though we later discovered major incompatibilities, as we shared a lot of love in many ways.

 

When it comes to level of interest in sex as it relates to change, I tend to view each partner's current average level of interest in sex as a dot on a spectrum, with zero interest at one end and multiple times per day at the other. Each dot is surrounded by a range of variation in either direction--the types of life fluctuations you talk about cause that variation. Even though two people will inevitably vary from their average "dot" (even if they both have high levels of interest in sex when they meet) hopefully their ranges have significant overlap. It's when they're so far apart on the spectrum that those ranges hardly overlap--when one or both are already stretching to meet each other from the beginning--that it can cause a problem. I'm sure there are many other ways of looking at it, and I imagine this way has limitations, but it's helped me a bit.

 

I've also found the book Come as You Are helpful for considering the broad range of factors that can impact sexual desire.

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23 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Hmm well, generally ONLY 'favorable' aces are okay with sex long term (and the 'favourable' is a difficult category because many who ID as 'sex favourable asexual' are basing their asexuality around a misconception of how normal sexual people function,

This would be good feedback to give the Asexual Census people. Maybe they'd be willing to consider a question that gets into that.

23 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

An aspect of this that is very often overlooked is that NOT having sex (nor having any expectation of sex) is very, very important to the happiness of the asexual. It's just as important and integral to the asexual's happiness and fulfillment as the need of the sexual person for sex.

I totally agree. As I mentioned somewhere else on this thread, I felt absolutely terrible when my partner was really honest about how much she disliked sex, and was basically just "going along with it" for various reasons. We both realized that we were impeding each other's happiness, which is a large part of why we separated.

 

23 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

allow your partner to have sex with other people (which is deeply, deeply painful for a monogamous ace)

Yes, I agree that it can be painful. I spent a lot of time talking w/ a former partner about this, and considering it. Another quote from I Fell in Love with an Asexual's section "Sexual-Asexual Open Relationships: Unique Challenges" that echoes your sentiments:

"Don’t assume that an asexual partner will automatically accept an open relationship just because they don’t want sex from you. While sex may not be a key component of intimacy for them, they know that it is a key component for you. They may fear that once you find someone who is more sexually compatible, they will also lose other types of intimacy with you. You might even choose to leave them altogether. Even if your partner doesn’t want sex, they may fear others’ judgment of your open relationship, and of them. They may fear being seen as an inadequate or sexually stingy partner, or as a weak victim clinging to an unfaithful partner.

In the beginning, your asexual partner might enthusiastically support—perhaps even encourage—your finding other sources of sex, hoping that it will relieve them of pressure to have sex with you. However, they will still expect you to show up for them in other ways, even as you are bonding with someone else. This may or may not be something that you can do in a way that meets their needs. Additionally, as your relationship with a more sexual partner gets your sexual energies flowing more freely again, you may also crave your asexual partner even more—and that can lead to further frustration. As you may recall, this happened with me."

23 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

or the ace is single and knowing they're going to end up in the exact same situation again as a the price they have to pay for the love they desire,

While I believe that breakups are incredibly painful for both partners, especially when two people love each other very much, I hear what you're saying. Asexual people have pain for different reasons, some of which sexual people don't need to worry about. While my writing is geared largely toward the sexual partner, I believe it's very important for the sexual partner to try to empathize with their asexual partner's perspective. Below is a passage from the same book where I attempt to communicate some of that:

"...For just a moment, though, imagine the fear of identifying as asexual in a world where the vast majority of people base their most intimate partnerships largely upon sexual attraction. Imagine wanting many of the same things that most people want from intimate relationships, except sex. Imagine fearing that you might be “out of the running” with a potential partner if you come out to them. Imagine fearing never being able to find a partner who is compatible, because you have no idea how many others similar to you even exist. Imagine fearing the judgment of everyone around you, worrying that they will think you are broken in some way.i

Perhaps your partner assumed that they would become more attracted to you as time went on. They, like you, heard society’s constant messages about how sex is one of the most amazing bonding—and even spiritual—experiences. They longed to experience that, too. They also came to love many other things about you. For these reasons, they were willing to take the risk of committing to someone to whom they didn’t feel physically attracted.

On the other hand, perhaps your partner knew something was different about them, but had never heard of asexuality or didn’t think it was a real thing. Our culture is still not supportive of open and in-depth discussion about sexuality in general, especially among youth. So we end up having to figure out a lot of things on our own, and it may take us until later in life to do so. We are all victims of this silence. Sex is discussed on the surface, and its imagery surrounds us every day, but more in-depth discussion is still limited..."

i For some of these sentiments expressed firsthand by an asexual person, see Tobias, “No Sex, Please—I’m Asexual.”

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Just wanted to say briefly how interesting I've found all the conversation in this thread! Although I have to be selective in what I respond to due to my own time constraints, I'm very glad people are continuing to talk about this, and I certainly appreciate the various points, reminders, and perspectives. :)

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7 hours ago, Serran said:

I'd even consider suggesting sexual surrogates (medical professionals who have sexual encounters with patients to help them overcome issues and yes this is not considered prostitution, since it's a medical professional) more sound advice for people who want to try to figure out if it's possible to have sex without pain, even though I would find the entire idea of that awkward at best if anyone suggested it to me. 

Over the last few years, I've talked with a few women who have experienced benefits from approaches like pelvic floor massage, and I know a man who swears by his experiences with having similar work done with his prostate.

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18 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

While probably not that common, given what I know now, I can even imagine cases where an asexual partner likes sex more than than a sexual partner.

Forgive me for not responding until now, but I was out most of the day.

 

The difference between an asexual and a sexual is that an asexual has no sexual desire toward anyone.  So, to say that an asexual may like sex more than a sexual partner (I'm assuming you mean an LD sexual partner), isn't really accurate.  

 

An asexual may offer sex to a LD sexual partner more than an LD partner may want it.  But the asexual doesn't do that because they "like" sex.  

 

If they actually "liked" sex, they wouldn't be asexual in the first place.  

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

Over the last few years, I've talked with a few women who have experienced benefits from approaches like pelvic floor massage, and I know a man who swears by his experiences with having similar work done with his prostate.

Interesting...

 

Today I was reading more about sexual entitlement.  I came across a post that got me thinking...

 

One of the biggest aspects of "sex" (putting in quotes for a reason...) is that it usually includes PIV (Penis In Vagina, for those who don't know) sex.  That is, intercourse.  

 

But the act of intercourse has the words "reproduction" written all over it.  I mean, the kind of sex we're talking about (mostly) is not for reproductive purposes.  In fact, we mostly do what we can to prevent reproduction, by using 'artificial' means.  

 

Maybe if we expanded our belief of what sex is, we might get a little bit farther in our 'quest'....?  

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