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Sexual Entitlement in Asexual-Sexual Relationships


naturerhythms

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naturerhythms

As some of you know, I recently co-authored a self-help memoir for sexually motivated partners: I Fell in Love with an Asexual: Navigating Needs without Blame When You Like Sex, Your Partner Doesn't, & Asexuality Is a Possibility.

We recently revised it with the subtitle above, after the original subtitle catalyzed a storm of one-star Amazon reviews. Comments ranged from "oversexed" and "super rapey" to "ableist" and "absolute aphobic garbage."

That earlier subtitle was Recover from a Sexless Marriage or Relationship with Someone Who Lacks Sexual Attraction & Reclaim Your Sexuality, Sanity, & Self. We wanted it to resonate with the strong emotions often experienced by sexual partners, but underestimated the extent to which it would also trigger pain points of asexual partners. I apologize to anyone here who experienced harm or offense from that subtitle. I also thank those who read beyond the cover and shared their opinions.

 

When something generates a lot of passionate feedback, especially a polarized blend of very positive expert endorsements and highly negative comments, there are often also larger themes or dynamics at play.
 

In the Amazon reviews, and in comments in a related social media group discussion (which spanned 50 laptop screens), at least one important theme resurfaced: sexual entitlement.
 

On one hand, partners who like sex sometimes pressure our partners for it, sometimes in an overtly demanding or passive aggressive way (see my confession below). We argue that we just can't be happy with a lack of sex, and that it's an integral part of how we express and feel love.

On the other hand, partners who don't like sex may point out that no one is entitled to sex, that it's not absolutely necessary for happiness. It's not a necessary part of "real" love, and it's not abusive to withhold sex. However, it is abusive to demand it.

Wash, rinse, repeat, lather with shame and guilt on both sides, until both partners literally feel crazy. Both make some valid points, and both have valid perspectives. But in some cases, they may never agree.


Because of that, I share here a 700-word section from I Fell in Love with an Asexual called "Reframe Entitlement." I hope it's helpful to you or someone you know.
 

==begin excerpt==

 

REFRAME ENTITLEMENT

 

You may have invested a great deal of time, energy, and other resources into your relationship. You may have promised many things to your partner, perhaps including monogamy. In return for your commitment, you have probably developed many expectations of your partner.

 

You may have what seem to be good and legitimate reasons to expect sex. You might have explicitly communicated your preferences and expectations early in the relationship. Or, you might not have, believing that your expectations were implied in other ways. If you had sex early on, it probably seemed safe to assume the sex would continue. If you are married, regular sex may seem reasonable to expect, given that having sex with anyone else without your partner’s consent could be considered grounds for divorce.

 

However, when it comes to creating a more sexually fulfilled life, it doesn’t matter how entitled you feel, or how valid your reasons are. You can’t make someone want to have sex with you. The only person you have control over is yourself. The best you can do is to focus on your self-development, become the most attractive partner you can, get to know your needs better, and learn to communicate them as well as you can.

 

If that’s not enough to make your partner want to have sex with you, or at least willing to have it in a way that meets your minimum needs, it’s your choice whether to remain, leave, or attempt to negotiate new relationship terms that work for both of you. Nobody, including your partner, is making you stay. If they insist that they are unwilling or unable to have sex with you, even at risk of losing the relationship, that’s something you ultimately need to honor. Sure, you might be able to persuade someone to have sex with you through nagging, guilt-tripping, or letting them know why you feel entitled, but is that the type of connection you really desire? If you truly care about your partner, is that what you want for them?

 

Upon reading these words, you may be thinking, “But it’s not a choice—the costs of ending the relationship would be devastating!” True, there may be massive costs involved with separating from your partner, especially if you have been together a very long time, are married, have one or more kids, or share a lot of property. The emotional, financial, time, and energy costs of separating may indeed be quite large. There may be religious and spiritual considerations. We'll talk more about some of these later. Whatever the case, staying or leaving is ultimately your choice. This may sound blunt, but blaming your partner for “boxing you in” is not likely to help.

 

Should you find yourself seriously thinking about forcing yourself upon your partner, or if you have already attempted to do this, please seek additional professional support as soon as possible. That’s a clear sign that the relationship needs to change in a major way for you very soon, or you need to transition out of the relationship. Even if you feel that your partner misled you, and this feels intensely unfair, anger or force won’t help anyone. You don’t want to hurt someone you care about and create further pain and complications for both of you.

 

After realizing that Katie was asexual, I sometimes found myself very sexually frustrated. While I never physically attempted to force her to have sex, I did sometimes use emotional manipulation. If she showed disappointment when I requested sex, I might emotionally withdraw, or tell her that a task or errand I had previously been happy to do now felt like an inconvenience. I feel terrible that I acted that way toward her, as I know it didn’t help either of us. At the same time, I have done my best to forgive myself, knowing that it was a challenging situation I could not have anticipated.

 

Always remember, there are billions of people on the planet, the majority of whom are sexual, and many of whom are seeking companionship. This may be very difficult to see right now, and may sound like a platitude. I know because I have been there myself. However, it is true.

 

--from I Fell in Love with an Asexual, by Dave Wheitner & Evan Ocean

 

==end excerpt==

 

The last paragraph may sound harsh out of context. The book discusses a range of options for meeting needs before the "last resort" of breaking up.

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I'm not really sure what to say about this.

 

I do not identify as asexual, but my partner does, and a lot of the things mentioned here still rub me the wrong way (a critique of the argument).

 

It is probably reasonable to assume most marriages initiate with an expectation of sex on the table, - but it is equally reasonable to assume that most partners don't enter a marriage wherein the expectation has been specifically and deliberately delineated/vocalized/addressed/etc.

 

2 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

The best you can do is to focus on your self-development, become the most attractive partner you can, get to know your needs better, and learn to communicate them as well as you can.

This is doomed to fail.

 

An asexual person doesn't want sex, regardless of how attractive or communicative you are. Sex just isn't the language that they speak, period, full stop, the end.

 

 

So - I am sexual, and this is a question I've grappled with. I use sex as a means to communicate love and intimacy. I want to share my body with my partner, in a way that is unique to our relationship. If he doesn't want that, then doesn't that make it completely pointless?

 

If our partners don't want sex as a means of communicating love and intimacy, then why on Earth would we try to force sex on them as a means of communicating love and intimacy? That totally defeats the purpose, and in doing, makes it explicitly about the physical aspect of sex, which is exactly what we tell them it isn't about.

 

Right?

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3 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

Always remember, there are billions of people on the planet, the majority of whom are sexual, and many of whom are seeking companionship. This may be very difficult to see right now, and may sound like a platitude. I know because I have been there myself. However, it is true.

 

I'm confused as to whom this last part is aimed at. Is it aimed at sexual people, saying ''remember, you could leave your asexual partner and find someone who wants sex with you'' or is it aimed at asexual people?

 

 

 

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Telling sexuals that they need to make themselves more attractive to their asexual partner isn't going to help them. Instead it will just make them feel bad about their appearance. It doesn't matter how attractive someone is when you're a person who doesn't experience attraction.

 

I find it funny that he felt it was necessary to add that people said it sounded "super rapey." :lol:

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6 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

but it is equally reasonable to assume that most partners don't enter a marriage wherein the expectation has been specifically and deliberately delineated/vocalized/addressed/etc.

I agree. Where I mention, " Or, you might not have, believing that your expectations were implied in other ways" is intended to cover that. I think that assumptions probably occur far more often than explicit communication.

 

8 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

This is doomed to fail.

 

An asexual person doesn't want sex, regardless of how attractive or communicative you are. Sex just isn't the language that they speak, period, full stop, the end.

 

Depends. One revision I made to the book, following suggestions from several people in the asexual community, was a reiteration of the point that some people who identify as asexual (not just demi and gray, but asexual) do like sex, or may under certain circumstances--even though it's quite a small percentage. There seems to be a lot of confusion and disagreement about this, even among the asexual community. I looked at data from the Asexual Census to confirm. The focus on your self-development, attractiveness and communication *might* lead to more sex w/ your partner, or if they are an asexual person who doesn't like sex at all, it could lead to other opportunities if you mutually decide to shift the form of your relationship (e.g., if you pursue an open relationship--a topic I discuss elsewhere in the book).

 

12 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

So - I am sexual, and this is a question I've grappled with. I use sex as a means to communicate love and intimacy. I want to share my body with my partner, in a way that is unique to our relationship. If he doesn't want that, then doesn't that make it completely pointless?

 

If our partners don't want sex as a means of communicating love and intimacy, then why on Earth would we try to force sex on them as a means of communicating love and intimacy? That totally defeats the purpose, and in doing, makes it explicitly about the physical aspect of sex, which is exactly what we tell them it isn't about.

Depends on whether feeling sexually wanted is an important part of sex for you, and whether they're actually repulsed vs just "meh" neutral. (Maybe I'll post another section on this topic, entitled "Wanting to be Wanted: A Complex Thing" sometime.) For me, that is also important, so I can relate. I agree that trying to force sex on someone defeats the purpose, alongside getting into unethical territory. However, particularly if you're in a position where you and your partner weren't initially clear on your different orientations (that was my case, and it's likely common in a culture where talking about sexuality up front is still pretty taboo), it can take time to emotionally let go of the idea that your partner is the one and only option you have for sexual expression.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Wish Bear 🌠 said:

Telling sexuals that they need to make themselves more attractive to their asexual partner isn't going to help them. Instead it will just make them feel bad about their appearance. It doesn't matter how attractive someone is when you're a person who doesn't experience attraction.

I don't think that's what the OP is saying.  He said that the sexual should make themselves a more attractive partner; not more attractive TO their asexual partner.

 

And it's not about physical attraction.  If you're used to pressuring and/or manipulating your partner into having sex, STOP.  It's an unattractive quality.  

 

 

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15 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

I'm confused as to whom this last part is aimed at. Is it aimed at sexual people, saying ''remember, you could leave your asexual partner and find someone who wants sex with you'' or is it aimed at asexual people?

 

 

 

This is advice for sexual people who have an interest in regularly occurring partnered sex, who are in relationships with an asexual partner who has very little or no interest in sex. In the broader context of the book, it is a last resort when other options have failed. Obviously the flip side of this is that asexual people get a sh**ty deal, having a potentially harder time finding another partner, given that asexual people are a much smaller percentage of the population. Unless, of course, you include sexual people with very low sex drives. While the advice may sound harsh, it is done with the recognition that people can do a lot of damage to each other when they're extremely mismatched AND blaming each other. Things like "corrective rape," which are horrible.

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7 minutes ago, vega57 said:

And it's not about physical attraction.  If you're used to pressuring and/or manipulating your partner into having sex, STOP.  It's an unattractive quality.  

I'm an unromantic unsexual.

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17 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

Depends on whether feeling sexually wanted is an important part of sex for you, and whether they're actually repulsed vs just "meh" neutral.

But again - if I'm asking another person to impede on their personal space for the sake of making me feel attractive/wanted/what have you, how does that communicate love and intimacy?

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5 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

Depends. One revision I made to the book, following suggestions from several people in the asexual community, was a reiteration of the point that some people who identify as asexual (not just demi and gray, but asexual) do like sex, or may under certain circumstances--even though it's quite a small percentage. There seems to be a lot of confusion and disagreement about this, even among the asexual community. I looked at data from the Asexual Census to confirm. The focus on your self-development, attractiveness and communication *might* lead to more sex w/ your partner, or if they are an asexual person who doesn't like sex at all, it could lead to other opportunities if you mutually decide to shift the form of your relationship (e.g., if you pursue an open relationship--a topic I discuss elsewhere in the book).

 

My ace can have and enjoy sex both. To him it works like masturbating to me instead of erotica. It isn't often, but it is often enough that it threw him for a toss to discover he still "fit" the ace description better than anything else.

 

He has told me point blank, and my experiences with him agree, unless he has a mental "scenario" where his partner looking in a certain way is "sexy", nothing I do will arouse him sexually. Actually, it would be easier to simply fondle him and see if the physical stimulation works - sometimes it can, other times it won't. Can't speak for all aces, but at least for him, his being able to have sex does not mean his sexual desire works in a similar manner to us. For him it is entirely in the mind. He has preferred stimulation for when he is in the mood. He doesn't like porn. He prefers reading erotica and since we have been living together, me. But this doesn't mean that either the erotica or I can actually seduce him, if he isn't in the mood to use us to get off - if that makes sense.

 

And trust me, I have tried. I am not the type to let any stone be unturned. I've tried over the years in countless ways. He will find me adorable. He will feel affectionate, he will tell me I look beautiful. That is it. The one time I recall my clothes seducing him, I don't even think I was looking my best. I was wearing traditional clothes for our engagement ceremony (to keep families happy - we live in) and the sight of me in them was so unusual and the symbolism of the ceremony also added a "mental script" that he needs to feel aroused. He couldn't keep his hands off me all day. um.... we didn't actually have sex after that anyway. So sometimes scoring a "hit" on what his mind identifies as "sexy" is also no guarantee that it will make him want sex?

 

Sound complicated? Welcome to my life :D 

 

That said, asking for sex flat out or initiating it works, so thankfully, no need to try to make him want it.

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9 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I don't think that's what the OP is saying.  He said that the sexual should make themselves a more attractive partner; not more attractive TO their asexual partner.

 

 

Yes.

 

11 minutes ago, vega57 said:

And it's not about physical attraction.  If you're used to pressuring and/or manipulating your partner into having sex, STOP.  It's an unattractive quality.

Agreed, not very attractive. And true that it's also important to keep the other attraction types (e.g., primary, secondary, aesthetic, romantic, sensual) in mind. Whole section on that called "master the attraction types"... Thanks for pointing that out!

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26 minutes ago, Wish Bear 🌠 said:

Telling sexuals that they need to make themselves more attractive to their asexual partner isn't going to help them. Instead it will just make them feel bad about their appearance. It doesn't matter how attractive someone is when you're a person who doesn't experience attraction.

Hopefully vega57's comment as well as my longer reply to Chimeric cleared up my intent re: this statement. Very true that if you view your partner, who doesn't experience sexual attraction, as your only source of "reflected self" (borrowing a term from relationship therapist David Schnarch), it's not going to make you feel good. Not to mention put a lot of pressure on your partner.

 

31 minutes ago, Wish Bear 🌠 said:

I find it funny that he felt it was necessary to add that people said it sounded "super rapey." :lol:

That is quite a strong phrase, isn't it? I included it because it illustrates just how charged this topic can be.

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11 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

But again - if I'm asking another person to impede on their personal space for the sake of making me feel attractive/wanted/what have you, how does that communicate love and intimacy?

If they're neutral/indifferent about sex, and agreeing to do it b/c they like to see you feel good, then I think it can communicate love and intimacy--provided you/ the sexual partner doesn't need to feel sexually wanted. And provided it's happening at a time when they don't feel you're impeding on them. If your partner really doesn't like sex, and it really is impeding on their personal space, I also have difficulty seeing how it's communicating love and intimacy. I would think other options need to be explored. I got to that point with my partner. I really loved her (and still do love her as a friend, even though we ended our romantic relationship some time ago), and when I realized how much the sex was something she just simply didn't like, it didn't feel like an expression of love. I realized that for a long time she had "gone along" and pretended she was into it out of love, but it then felt to me like I would be selfish and even invasive for continuing as we both got more honest about how we really felt.

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6 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

If they're neutral/indifferent about sex, and agreeing to do it b/c they like to see you feel good, then I think it can communicate love and intimacy--provided you/ the sexual partner doesn't need to feel sexually wanted. And provided it's happening at a time when they don't feel you're impeding on them. If your partner really doesn't like sex, and it really is impeding on their personal space, I also have difficulty seeing how it's communicating love and intimacy. I would think other options need to be explored. I got to that point with my partner. I really loved her (and still do love her as a friend, even though we ended our romantic relationship some time ago), and when I realized how much the sex was something she just simply didn't like, it didn't feel like an expression of love. I realized that for a long time she had "gone along" and pretended she was into it out of love, but it then felt to me like I would be selfish and even invasive for continuing as we both got more honest about how we really felt.

It's great that you were able to recognize this.  I've heard/read so many posts (on other forums) where they begin with the words, "...Every time I have sex with my wife, she just lays there..."  DUDE!!!  WHY in the world are you having sex repeatedly with someone who just lays there?  They then launch into some diatribe about how they have "needs"...which makes me wonder whether their physical "needs" are what "inspired" them into having sex the entire time....  

 

BTW, I absolutely LOVE David Schnarch!  His philosophies to me are spot on!  

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25 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

My ace can have and enjoy sex both... Sound complicated? Welcome to my life :D

Thanks for sharing this! Good reminder that both asexual and sexual people can be pretty diverse when it comes to sexual desire, and that things work well for some couples, even with different orientations. And it sounds like it's also been a learning adventure for you, too.

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I think one of the ways that we can tell when sexual entitlement is rearing its ugly head is to see how we feel (and what we think) when we're NOT getting sex.  It's pretty easy to conceal a sense of entitlement as long as we're getting what we believe we're entitled to.  But once that 'thing' is missing, how do we approach it?  

 

So many people these days use phrases such as, "I deserve...." or "So and so OWES me..."  They don't even have to say those words, but it's clear that they feel that way. After all, they cook, clean ("for" their spouse), give the kid a bath, work 50 hours a week...and the least he/she could do is have sex with me!  So, basically, they have this covert contract set up in their mind that their spouse/partner is unaware of, and they're doing all those things because they expect sex in return for their efforts.  Of course, they're pissed off, when they don't get it.  

 

As long as they continue to view sex as something that's "earned" or something they "deserve" because of their maleness/femaleness, having 'needs' etc., they're going to continue to fail at their endeavors to be in a loving relationship.  

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14 minutes ago, vega57 said:

It's great that you were able to recognize this...WHY in the world are you having sex repeatedly with someone who just lays there?  They then launch into some diatribe about how they have "needs"...

It took me a while to look at my own baggage around this. For me, one of the things was the societal programming/myths around women in general not being able/supposed to enjoy sex as much as men. So I thought it was "normal" that my partner wasn't as much into sex as me. As you note, this is a huge problem. And I think it probably makes it harder for many people, esp. women, to determine when they actually are asexual and have a lack of interest in sex connected to their lack of sexual attraction.

 

19 minutes ago, vega57 said:

BTW, I absolutely LOVE David Schnarch!  His philosophies to me are spot on!  

Glad to hear you've also read Schnarch--I think he addresses some important areas where others are afraid to go.

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19 minutes ago, vega57 said:

have this covert contract set up in their mind that their spouse/partner is unaware of, and they're doing all those things because they expect sex in return for their efforts.  Of course, they're pissed off, when they don't get it.  

Yes. My hope is that as people become more comfortable talking about sexuality in general, they'll talk about their desires and hopes more explicitly earlier on in relationships (and young people will have more freedom to discover their sexual identities sooner), resulting in fewer serious mismatches.

 

22 minutes ago, vega57 said:

As long as they continue to view sex as something that's "earned"

Yes, this "earned" piece is huge. I'm not stating anything that's probably not already obvious to most people here, but access to sex is closely tied to the concept of success in our culture, particularly for men. This causes problems for people of all sexes and orientations.

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16 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

It took me a while to look at my own baggage around this.

That's awesome.  So many people out there are so narcissistic that they don't believe they have any 'baggage' to look at!  

 

Quote

For me, one of the things was the societal programming/myths around women in general not being able/supposed to enjoy sex as much as men. So I thought it was "normal" that my partner wasn't as much into sex as me. As you note, this is a huge problem. And I think it probably makes it harder for many people, esp. women, to determine when they actually are asexual and have a lack of interest in sex connected to their lack of sexual attraction.

It seems pretty well known by now that over 2/3's of the sexually active women do not orgasm through intercourse alone.  And yes, there are many myths concerning this, especially that a woman "should" orgasm that way.  When she doesn't, it's deemed that there's something 'wrong' with her.  I'm pretty sure that if many of those women could orgasm through intercourse, there would be a lot more women who would actually enjoy sex (provided her partner gave her enough time to do so, which is another matter...)

 

But there would still be women who really don't care for sex, even if they could orgasm easily from it.  While there are plenty of women who can orgasm easily through masturbation (and may masturbate frequently), they have no desire to share this activity with a partner.  Doesn't mean they're "hung up" or "frigid" or "neurotic" or that they don't "love" their partner.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

Yes. My hope is that as people become more comfortable talking about sexuality in general, they'll talk about their desires and hopes more explicitly earlier on in relationships (and young people will have more freedom to discover their sexual identities sooner), resulting in fewer serious mismatches.

Yes, agreed.  Education is key.  

 

Quote

Yes, this "earned" piece is huge. I'm not stating anything that's probably not already obvious to most people here, but access to sex is closely tied to the concept of success in our culture, particularly for men. This causes problems for people of all sexes and orientations.

Absolutely!  There is a theory 'out there' about how marriage was created by men so they had a guarantee of sexual access to women, and that women couldn't easily 'escape'.  We can see today how marriage and sex are related to 'success'.  If you're married, and you have a lot of sex in your marriage, you're marriage is "successful".  

 

What I question is WHY so many people (especially men) tend to believe this...

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43 minutes ago, vega57 said:

It seems pretty well known by now that over 2/3's of the sexually active women do not orgasm through intercourse alone...

 

 

Good points. My perception is that among communities who talk about sexuality somewhat regularly, these things are reasonably well known. Among the general community, I get the sense there's still lots of educating to be done, even if we've come a ways from the days of unfortunate diagnoses like "female hysteria."

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Just now, naturerhythms said:

Good points. My perception is that among communities who talk about sexuality somewhat regularly, these things are reasonably well known. Among the general community, I get the sense there's still lots of educating to be done, even if we've come a ways from the days of unfortunate diagnoses like "female hysteria."

LOL!  The term "female hysteria" suddenly brought to mind, "The Vapors"....:lol:

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1 hour ago, naturerhythms said:

If they're neutral/indifferent about sex, and agreeing to do it b/c they like to see you feel good, then I think it can communicate love and intimacy--provided you/ the sexual partner doesn't need to feel sexually wanted.

I think most people in this situation aren't going to end up with issues anyway if they're literally fine with sex! It's only when the ace really isn't comfortable with it though forces themselves to do it because they love their partner (or stops doing it all together) that the issues actually begin. And the majority of aces are more in the category of not being that comfortable with it and feeling drained from it etc, even if they're 'neutral' about it.

 

2 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

This is advice for sexual people who have an interest in regularly occurring partnered sex, who are in relationships with an asexual partner who has very little or no interest in sex. In the broader context of the book, it is a last resort when other options have failed. Obviously the flip side of this is that asexual people get a sh**ty deal, having a potentially harder time finding another partner, given that asexual people are a much smaller percentage of the population. Unless, of course, you include sexual people with very low sex drives. While the advice may sound harsh, it is done with the recognition that people can do a lot of damage to each other when they're extremely mismatched AND blaming each other. Things like "corrective rape," which are horrible.

Ah I see. And while I agree there are billions of sexually compatible partners out there, it's sad that the ace here is kind of in a situation where 'have sex with your partner or they'll leave you' is the only choice. I gave my sexual ex sex for five years, every single time he wanted it, because I was well aware that this was the only choice available. Some asexuals are lucky enough to have sexual partners who prefer to live in celibacy than leave, and that's awesome! but then it's often the sexual person who is left miserable, or has to leave, which sucks just as much. I do think those latter situations are definitely a lot more rare though, it's much more often the ace who is giving sex to hold the relationship together. Romantic aces desire love just as much as anyone else does, and yeah it's harsh that having to have sex is often the price they have to pay for that love, even though it's no ones fault. It's just a sad fact of life that the vast majority of the population is sexual and unless a romantic ace is lucky enough to find an asexual partner, they'll end up having to give sex if they want love (or being allowed to live in celibacy but having a very unhappy sexual partner). Fortunately there are some mixed couples out there who can make it work where both are happy, and I think that's all anyone can hope for :)

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4 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

Good points. My perception is that among communities who talk about sexuality somewhat regularly, these things are reasonably well known. Among the general community, I get the sense there's still lots of educating to be done, even if we've come a ways from the days of unfortunate diagnoses like "female hysteria."

There is.  I started a thread here several months ago, asking what kind of sexual education posters received during school.  Most of the education was very basic:  Put slot 'A' into slot 'B' and ta-dah!  There were discussions about STI's/STD's and only a few touched on the different sexual orientations, not including asexuality.  

 

The gist that people seemed to get was that sex was a 'given'.  It was something that we were ALL going to 'do', and in some cases, we were told that we're going to like it.  

 

What we're not taught is that sex is a choice.  Even sexuals have the choice as to who they want to have sex with.  But the person they may want to have sex with, also has the choice NOT to have sex with 'them'.  Could be for something like religious reasons, ethical reasons or the fact that they're simply not attracted to the person who wants to have sex with them.   

 

None of this is usually explained in sex ed courses.  It's just the basic explanation of the reproductive process with a little bit of 'other' thrown in there, telling us that we're "going" to do this at some point in our lives.  

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3 minutes ago, vega57 said:

There is.  I started a thread here several months ago, asking what kind of sexual education posters received during school.  Most of the education was very basic:  Put slot 'A' into slot 'B' and ta-dah!  There were discussions about STI's/STD's and only a few touched on the different sexual orientations, not including asexuality.  

 

The gist that people seemed to get was that sex was a 'given'.  It was something that we were ALL going to 'do', and in some cases, we were told that we're going to like it.  

 

What we're not taught is that sex is a choice.  Even sexuals have the choice as to who they want to have sex with.  But the person they may want to have sex with, also has the choice NOT to have sex with 'them'.  Could be for something like religious reasons, ethical reasons or the fact that they're simply not attracted to the person who wants to have sex with them.   

 

None of this is usually explained in sex ed courses.  It's just the basic explanation of the reproductive process with a little bit of 'other' thrown in there, telling us that we're "going" to do this at some point in our lives.  

Sometimes even doctors are shit at educating people about any of this stuff, lol. At 17 I went to a doctor crying because sex was so painful, once it started I just wanted it to be over, and I just couldn't bring myself to enjoy part of it. Instead of saying 'Just don't have it, that's always an option' he said 'just keep having it until you like it, that's what everyone does' Y_Y *SIGH*

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2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

And while I agree there are billions of sexually compatible partners out there, it's sad that the ace here is kind of in a situation where 'have sex with your partner or they'll leave you' is the only choice.

*waves to Ficto*

 

But Ficto, ,that attitude has been prevalent for decades, if not centuries.  It's not just the asexual who's in that situation, but even the sexual, who simply doesn't want sex as much as their partner.  It's sad for either the asexual or the lower sexual partner to have to deal with that crap!  

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2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Sometimes even doctors are shit at educating people about any of this stuff, lol. At 17 I went to a doctor crying because sex was so painful, once it started I just wanted it to be over, and I just couldn't bring myself to enjoy part of it. Instead of saying 'Just don't have it, that's always an option' he said 'just keep having it until you like it, that's what everyone does' Y_Y *SIGH*

OMG, you said a MOUTHFUL here, Ficto.  I also went to a psychiatrist because I began having extreme anxiety attacks at barely19.  (This is actually a funny story) I was complaining about how my grandmother was a tyrant, and how nothing I could do would please her.  (She was.  Think of the movie "Mommy Dearest" and THAT'S my grandmother...and I lived with my grandmother until she finally passed away when I was 19.5)

 

The psychiatrist told me that all of my problems were because I wasn't having sex...(I had only had sex ONCE by that point in my life).  

 

At the time, I was in college.  I had to take Psych 101 as a prerequisite for my degree, and we had been studying the different styles between Freud, Jung and Adler.  After the 'doctor' told me that my problems stemmed for the lack of sex, I asked him if he was a student of Freud.  He smiled and said, "Yes".  I told him that *I* was a student of Adler and since Adler was an optimist, I was optimistic that I would be walking out of the doctor's office, never seeing him again!  :D

 

BTW, I did 'cure' my anxiety.  Only took about 15 years...:lol:

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8 minutes ago, vega57 said:

*waves to Ficto*

 

But Ficto, ,that attitude has been prevalent for decades, if not centuries.  It's not just the asexual who's in that situation, but even the sexual, who simply doesn't want sex as much as their partner.  It's sad for either the asexual or the lower sexual partner to have to deal with that crap!  

Yes but a lot of sexual people with slightly different libidos or sexual preferences (ie one prefers to give oral more than receive or whatever) can still make it work as long as that basic level of sexual compatibility is there, as in, they both want each other sexually at least sometimes. And for a sexual, if they end up with a sexual partner who they're sexually incompatible with, yes they may end up breaking up but there are hundreds (thousands, millions, lol) of other people out there who they'll have a higher chance of sexual compatibility with. Whereas for an asexual, they will always be stuck with total sexual incompatibility with the vast majority of the sexual population is automatic unless they can be lucky enough to find another ace!

 

But yes I agree, for a lower desire sexual it still sucks having to deal with that crap!

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12 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

And the majority of aces are more in the category of not being that comfortable with it and feeling drained from it etc, even if they're 'neutral' about it.

This seems about as biased a sample as @Telecaster68 saying that there were more frustrated sexuals in ace-sexual relationships. Those who don't have a problem are less likely to speak up. 

 

A perfectly matched sexual relationship is a rare thing. Most times couples have someone wanting more sex than the other and the other sometimes simply not wanting it. Having sex when you don't want it is obviously draining - even to a sexual! This does not necessarily mean that it drains you even when you do it for other reasons. I have usually not seen my ace feel drained from it at all, unless it gets too frequent, which it doesn't, anymore.

 

This is more a consent thing (and not martyrdom as consent, because you are 'supposed' to but an honestly communicated readiness, even if not sexual desire). I have seen this happen with normal sexuals too - you can verify this with a marriage counsellor, for example. It is among the most common results of sexually mismatched marriages where there isn't mutual respect.

 

I hesitate to talk about this because this is clearly a trigger subject here, but if you say one thing and mean the other - for whatever reason, however noble - the result will be warped, because your partner is operating according to the stated reality. In the sense that if I am not in the mood for sex, but I agree, it will feel intrusive, exhausting and the only thing I want is for it to be over and not expected again, forgetting that it wasn't expectation, but me volunteering that got me there - for reasons of my own perception.

 

Honesty is very necessary in an intimate relationship, even if what we have to say may not be what the other wants to hear. "I know I am supposed to like it, but this doesn't feel good" starts a healthy conversation toward the well being of both.

 

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1 minute ago, vega57 said:

 Freud.

Ah yes, the lovely man who said that a woman isn't emotionally or sexually mature if she can't have vaginal orgasms :P He must have been super smart, haha

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