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anamikanon

A question for asexuals

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squaggly
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You'd be surprised by how much women can understand a reluctance to have sex. You spend your life wary of unwelcome gropes, potential for rape. Even a FULLY sexual nymphomaniac fully "gets" sex aversion when you don't want sex. Forget threats from strangers and rape, a lousy sexual partner in a consensual relationship can make sex very unpleasant. Men are more likely to get off regardless. Also less likely to be physically dominated, touched roughly in tender places to the point of getting tears and more. We are talking about sex being unpleasant and repulsive and painful? Women are disproportionately injured as a result of sex. We UNDERSTAND reluctance, aversion, drain, violation, even if we are sexual.

that sounds a little bit more like rape aversion than sex aversion

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Cnyb

What can be compromised, and what can be expected.  For me there's a general notion that if I'm with someone we try to see where our interests overlap, and otherwise each accommodate the other somehow to some degree.  If we share enough interests and joy, or if we find equivalent things to accommodate and are comfortable/satisfied, maybe even work in something very fun to emphasize the reciprocity of the exchange, maybe it can work out -- depending on how often each partner enjoys the mutual accommodation play, and whether the satisfaction is enough for each to offset the discomfort or 'meh' quality of accommodating for the other.

 

The 'no' is a bit of a damper, a wet blanket, and it can be a very powerful one at that, so the more playful yesses there are I'm thinking can take some pressure off.

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squaggly

I know what I want to say, I just don't know how to say it.

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anamikanon
3 minutes ago, squaggly said:

that sounds a little bit more like rape aversion than sex aversion

It is the aversion of an unpleasant experience. You can love your sexual partner but wish he grabbed your boobs more gently. Men usually are physically stronger than women. "Rough" behavior by a loved one - even unintended - is something that is unpleasant. Aversion is finding sex unpleasant, right?

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squaggly

At times, the mental pain from sex makes physical pain, and there were times where I just couldn't react to things because my brain was a bit shut down from it. I can be okay with sex in moderation, but there is a line that makes it unbearable. If the sex gets past that line, the relationship is doomed to failure, not because of my own actions or their own actions, but because I just can't handle it. I don't think a lack of sex is something that could make someone mentally shut down like that

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squaggly
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It is the aversion of an unpleasant experience. You can love your sexual partner but wish he grabbed your boobs more gently. Men usually are physically stronger than women. "Rough" behavior by a loved one - even unintended - is something that is unpleasant. Aversion is finding sex unpleasant, right?

sex aversion is finding all sex unpleasant, not just the rough parts, but I understand what you mean

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anamikanon

All I am saying is that don't be too hasty to judge people as not understanding. For that matter, even men understand unwelcome sexual demands - say someone who got too sore from an enthusiastic partner and really doesn't want sex for another day, but she is still horny and touching him.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, squaggly said:

sex aversion is finding all sex unpleasant, not just the rough parts, but I understand what you mean

you don't have to be averse all the time to understand the nature of aversion. All it takes is one time when your personal autonomy is violated. And voila, you have an insight into what that feels like, even if it isn't happening all the time to you as it may be for someone else.

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squaggly
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

All I am saying is that don't be too hasty to judge people as not understanding. For that matter, even men understand unwelcome sexual demands - say someone who got too sore from an enthusiastic partner and really doesn't want sex for another day, but she is still horny and touching him.

Sorry, I'm just not very good at explaining myself, and I'm taking my frustration out on you

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Guest Deus Ex Infinity
10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Would you accept a sexual partner disinterested in cuddling you or mostly refusing and allowing only on their terms?

 

Replace cuddling here by whatever your form of necessary intimacy is. Obviously other than sex.

It's a very individual and personal question. As for me, I couldn't imagine having a long-term relationship without any close physical interactions or sex once in a while at all. 

 

But again: Everyone of us is different so I'm very sure that there are people out there who could be happy with it.

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squaggly

In response to the point you were originally trying to make, I agree with you. Asexual people do give up less in a relationship a lot of the time. But I can see a reason for this, which I mentioned not too long ago. The consequences of too much sex for an ace person (many times not enough for a sexual person) is much greater potentially than I could see too little for the sexual person.

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Telecaster68
9 minutes ago, Deus Ex Infinity said:

It's a very individual and personal question. As for me, I couldn't imagine having a long-term relationship without any close physical interactions or sex once in a while at all. 

 

But again: Everyone of us is different so I'm very sure that there are people out there who could be happy with it.

Clearly, everyone is different - what's your personal response though?

 

I'm finding it fascinating how much trouble asexuals are having with this idea, and I honestly have no idea why.

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squaggly

I really didn't want to delve too deep in my personal life for this post, and I'm not crying for sympathy, but here it goes...

 

In the one relationship I've been in, the sexualness of it was bearable at the beginning, but it quickly became too much for me. Even in our almost year long relationship, there was no sex, just close encounters with it. I subconsciously pushed myself away from her, which caused relationship problems and made me feel guilty and useless. At some point in our relationship, the sex became way too much for me and there was some attempted suicide somewhere from it. She ended up talking me out of it though, so that's nice. The problems were still there, and I started mentally separating myself from her whenever sex came up. She thought I was high all the time, but I've never done drugs in my life. All this weirdness because the sex was too much for me

 

Her side of it was different though. She saw me as uncaring and unloving, and she thought pushing more sex would help.

 

Our relationship would have been fine from my side if sex was absent, but I'm not sure about her. Since all my knowledge is one-sided, I can't see both sides. I do think that it would have been easier for her to have less than it would be for me to have more.

7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Clearly, everyone is different - what's your personal response though?

 

I'm finding it fascinating how much trouble asexuals are having with this idea, and I honestly have no idea why.

the response is in what you quoted. 

21 minutes ago, Deus Ex Infinity said:

As for me, I couldn't imagine having a long-term relationship without any close physical interactions or sex once in a while at all

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

it does mean the sexual has no agency in a very important part of the relationship, and that's an additional source of pain in itself.

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

I don't see why it is so hard for asexuals to see what @Telecaster68is saying. It is simple circumstances. Short of rape/abuse, an ace can make his preference happen unilaterally. A sexual can't.

This is so frustrating Y_Y 

 

Think of it like this (though at this point it's starting to seem like a waste of effort typing because apparently it will never get through?)

 

The choice for the asexual is in the situation we are talking about is: ''You have sex with me or I'm leaving you.'' So the asexual has to have sex with their partner, or the partner will leave. 

 

The choice for the sexual person in the situation anamikanon and Tele are talking about is: ''I don't want to have sex with you, and you can leave if you're not happy with that''. So the sexual person is forced to live in celibacy.. or leave the relationship.

 

On either side of the equation, there is the exact same amount of choice (and the exact same lack of choice). If the ace won't have sex, the relationship will fall apart and the sexual partner will leave (or they can CHOOSE to stay no matter how unhappy celibacy makes them). If the sexual partner demands sex and gives no other choice other than a break-up, the ace can CHOOSE to give sex so their partner will stay, no matter how unhappy sex makes the ace..or the ace can choose to leave.

 

If the sexual doesn't get sex and is unhappy with that, they have just as much choice to leave as the ace who is unhappy having to give sex but knows their partner will leave if they don't give it. 

 

In the situation we are talking about, the asexual doesn't have some magical control over how much sex that happens. It happens when and how often the sexual partner wants, or the sexual partner will leave. Just as in YOUR situation, the sexual partner doesn't have any control over whether or not intimacy happens at all, and you know for a fact that if you started demanding it and gave your partner an ultimatum, they may well leave you.. or you can leave.

 

In either of these situations, the partner giving into the demands (whether sexual or ace) is suffering, but please know that an ace can be the one with no control without it being rape. It completely depends on the personality of both partners involved and the dynamics of the relationship itself.

 

But no, being the ace doesn't automatically mean you have total control over how much intimacy happens in the relationship, that's the case for SOME mixed relationships, but not all of them.

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Telecaster68
25 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

All I am saying is that don't be too hasty to judge people as not understanding. For that matter, even men understand unwelcome sexual demands - say someone who got too sore from an enthusiastic partner and really doesn't want sex for another day, but she is still horny and touching him.

And despite popular culture, men don't want to bone anyone female. It's quite possible for women to try to get sexual with men who just don't fancy them, and it's deeply uncomfortable, especially when you know they could make criminal assault allegations if they're upset. It's not common and there's a bigger problem with real allegations that don't result in convictions, but it's still a worry.

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Telecaster68

But Ficto - rape thing is entirely the point. The asexual can push the relationship deal breaker of 'no' and see what happens, and mostly, especially in long relationships, the answer is nothing. Their partner sticks around and  tries to figure out what to  do. They can certainly sustain that position for months with no real consequences as pretty much nobody will end a relationship because their partner turned them down once, and the chances of rape (horrible though it is), are tiny.

 

If the sexual pushes the situation once, it's rape. So in practice, the asexual has control.

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Moony Lovegood

This isn't really an asexuality forum if it's overrun by sexuals telling asexuals what to think and trying to brainwash us into having sex with them.

 

Really, does no one see how perverted it is that people want to have sex with people who aren't willing or interested?

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Telecaster68

This is a section for sexual partners, and nobody is brainwashing asexuals.  

 

Are you going to retract the pervert accusation or shall I report the post? 

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squaggly

I understand that I don't understand your feelings toward sex, I understand that you don't understand why I don't understand, and my lack of understanding makes me unable to understand why you don't understand my lack of understanding.

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Moony Lovegood

Go ahead and report, that is the truth and I'm not going to say otherwise.

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Moony Lovegood

Yet another example of asexuals being oppressed on this website.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But Ficto - rape thing is entirely the point. The asexual can push the relationship deal breaker of 'no' and see what happens, and mostly, especially in long relationships, the answer is nothing. Their partner sticks around and  tries to figure out what to  do. They can certainly sustain that position for months with no real consequences as pretty much nobody will end a relationship because their partner turned them down once, and the chances of rape (horrible though it is), are tiny.

 

If the sexual pushes the situation once, it's rape. So in practice, the asexual has control.

Serran was with her husband for, I think, 9 years? And I was with my sexual ex for 5 years. We are not talking about sexual people like you, who would choose to remain in the relationship despite celibacy. We are talking about sexuals who are very, very different from you. Just as your asexual partners are very, very different from me and Serran (we chose to give sex to keep our partners, your partner does NOT seem to be the type of woman who would be okay with that kind of ultimatum). We are speaking from our own personal experience of what happened in our own long term relationships. We had just as much choice to leave if we didn't want to have the sex as you have if you decide you can't live with celibacy any longer. It's NOT rape if you choose to have sex with your partner whenever they want and however they want it to stop them leaving, even if you yourself don't want the sex and would be happiest without it. That does not mean we had 'control' over the sex because our partners would have just left us if we did not give them sex or refused it for long enough. Just as your partner would probably leave you if you said 'start giving me sex or I'm leaving'.

 

And again, of course, I am not speaking for all mixed relationships. There are many different types. Some where the ace is given the ultimatum of 'give me sex or I'm leaving', some where the sexual is the one forced to live in celibacy or to make the choice to leave, and some where the partners can try to meet each other half way. I am speaking from personal experience, as is Serran (and others how have responded) and it's getting deeply frustrating being told we are wrong or incorrect about what we experienced for so many years :/

 

13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is a section for sexual partners

Yes but I think it was put in the wrong section because the title very clearly states: A question for asexuals, so of course asexuals are naturally going to be reading it and I can see why they'd be a little upset by some of the comments being made here about the ace experience.

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Telecaster68

I give up.

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Browncoat10
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

I give up.

If it helps @Telecaster68, I'm asexual and agree with almost* everything you've said in this thread. I think aces do have the agency in a relationship when it comes to sex, and I can see that it would be as hard for a sexual in a mixed relationship as it would be for an asexual. I also think there's a lot of people here who don't want to concede that what you're saying is true, because they don't get it or because this forum is perceived as a place meant solely for asexuals. It's not. I genuinely think you have a point in all you've said.

 

*I don't appreciate being told that all aces are disagreeing with you because we want to present ourselves as victims though. That's just plain not true.

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anamikanon
58 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

 

The choice for the asexual is in the situation we are talking about is: ''You have sex with me or I'm leaving you.'' So the asexual has to have sex with their partner, or the partner will leave. 

 

The choice for the sexual person in the situation anamikanon and Tele are talking about is: ''I don't want to have sex with you, and you can leave if you're not happy with that''.

 

On either side of the equation, there is the exact same amount of choice. 

This is not logically sound.


I am sorry you had terrible experiences that you see this as a normal part of a relationship with a sexual person, but this way outside the realm of the discussion. Coercion can get anything done. An asexual can just as well threaten to leave if asked for sex as a converse of your first statement. It is more about who holds the power in the relationship. I'd say the person who is dominant or owns the home or whose partner loves them enough to compromise will win - regardless of sexual or asexual. Particularly if it is a well established relationship that can't easily be broken over one thing. And a sexual person can also leave it to the asexual's choice to stay or leave without imposing for a converse to your second.

 

It is also interesting how you didn't use identical descriptions for "exact" same choice. Would the two statements feel like "exact same amount of choice" if it were the asexual threatening to abandon and the sexual giving the asexual the freedom to stay or leave?

 

The converse for 

"'You have sex with me or I'm leaving you.'' is "You ask me for sex and I'm leaving you"

 

not

 

''I don't want to have sex with you, and you can leave if you're not happy with that''

 

Coerced sex is basically rape, unlike coerced lack of sex. There is no equivalence when it comes to likelihood of decent people doing one or the other. Though both probably feel equally brutal on the receiving end, one is far more likely to happen as well as far more often than the other.

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anamikanon

 

22 minutes ago, Wish Bear 🌠 said:

 

Really, does no one see how perverted it is that people want to have sex with people who aren't willing or interested?

About as perverted as being in a relationship with a sexual person without willingness or interest in sex.

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, Browncoat10 said:

*I don't appreciate being told that all aces are disagreeing with you because we want to present ourselves as victims though. That's just plain not true.

Fair enough. I was consciously being a bit provocative because to see what counter arguments came up, I admit. And at that point, no asexuals seemed willing to see what seems pretty obvious to me. 

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Browncoat10

Maybe we should stop throwing around the word "perverted" seeing as neither of you seem to know what it means.

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Moony Lovegood

@anamikanon Hahahaahaha. Read that to yourself. Does that actually make any sense to you?

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Browncoat10
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Fair enough. I was consciously being a bit provocative because to see what counter arguments came up, I admit. And at that point, no asexuals seemed willing to see what seems pretty obvious to me. 

I had a feeling that's what you were doing...

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