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A question for asexuals


anamikanon

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is what knowing you'll never be desired and sex will always be a concession feels like to a sexual partner all the time, not just the few minutes when sex is happening.

No, it's not just when the sex is happening. It's 24/7 because you constantly know your partner will need it soon and you're in a constant state of trying to prepare for it while still being drained from the last time. And it's not a 'few minutes', sex for my partner was an hour minimum and I'm pretty sure I've heard Serran say the same thing (at least 40 mins) in the past. Sex is like a marathon you have to be constantly prepared for even though you know only the other person will enjoy it. It's easier at the start, a lot easier, but after a few months or years, even just knowing it's going to happen in a few days when he gets back from a trip of whatever is enough to make you want to crawl into a hole. At the same time, you love the person and feel that leaving them due to your pain would be cruel.. but that doesn't stop the constant, endless drain that knowing you'll have to have sex causes, while you're still trying to recover emotionally, energetically, and physically from the last time.

 

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not flipping those quotes to compete. I'm making the point that it works that way for both sides - and asexuals can just say 'no' to avoid the draining boring chore that requires a daunting amount of emotional energy.

 

Sexuals don't get that choice.

You are flipping around, but you keep using inaccurate examples to downplay how it feels for asexuals. Saying 'no' certainly doesn't avoid the drain when your with a partner like mine or Serran's, because 1) you'll have to do it eventually anyway so you're only delaying the inevitable and 2) you'll end up with a very pissed off partner who will probably stomp around expressing how disappointed they are with you, or threaten to leave, or some other way to ensure you feel guilty about not having sex. At the same time, you ALREADY feel guilty that you can't give them what they want in the way they want it. You again, make a blanket statement about sexuals not getting that choice, but for my ex his response if I'd said no would have been to become very angry, smash things, and accuse me of having sex with other men. While obviously not all people react THAT badly, you still know you're going to have to face massive negative consequences for saying no or trying to get out of sex, so in that case it's the sexual that has the power and the asexual that just has to go with sex to avoid the consequences of 'no'.

 

And no, I'm not trying to 'compete on the suffering scale', I just find myself needing to constantly correct these blanket assumptions you have about the asexual side of this. It's frustrating, because we've been explaining this to you for years now, but you still seem to think that every asexual has it easy as pie and can just say no and live in happiness. It's not LIKE that for every asexual though :/

 

23 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There are multiple posts on here from you about how the act itself is stressful, painful, anxiety inducing, etc., and that's why it's too much to ask as a compromise. Now you're saying the act itself isn't the source of the problem? Are you really saying asexuals are no happier not having sex than having sex?

 

If the act isn't painful (mentally or physically), why is a compromise so impossible? Or are all those posts about how sex when you don't want it is intrusive, painful, stressful etc. wrong?

 

And the act simply is totally under the asexual's control.

It's almost always painful mentally and emotionally eventually, even for an asexual who confesses to 'enjoy' sex (and those are few and far between, they're usually either a regular sexual person OR, they've never actually been in a long-term relationship where they had to have a lot of sex a lot of the time). Ciri (I'm not sure if she's still around on AVEN?) always confessed to enjoying sex even though she said she was asexual. Anyway, I remember very clearly when she went from saying 'I'm asexual and I love having sex' to 'sex is a constant drain, I feel energetically completely empty after, I know my boyfriend wants it but it's taking such a toll on me emotionally', etc etc. Maybe she has someone new now, maybe she likes it again, I don't know.. but for an asexual, even if they 'enjoy' the feelings of sex, it'll still almost always end up being a drain for them and something they want to avoid.. Because otherwise they wouldn't be asexual. If they loved sex just as much as a sexual person, and were able to get as much enjoyment out of it as their sexual partner, and it was never a drain for them.. then they obviously wouldn't be asexual, they'd be sexual.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There are multiple posts on here from you about how the act itself is stressful, painful, anxiety inducing, etc., and that's why it's too much to ask as a compromise. Now you're saying the act itself isn't the source of the problem? Are you really saying asexuals are no happier not having sex than having sex?

 

If the act isn't painful (mentally or physically), why is a compromise so impossible? Or are all those posts about how sex when you don't want it is intrusive, painful, stressful etc. wrong?

 

And the act simply is totally under the asexual's control.

The act is painful, anxiety inducing, etc, of course. However, as I said, saying no doesn't take away the pain, or anxiety, it just replaces it with a different type. Here are the two options I had to choose from:

 

Having sex:
Potential for physical pain (for me, it sometimes felt like being punched, cause I wasn't aroused)

Anxiety from having to have it

Feeling used and disgusting if having it too often, as you really, really want to say no and are saying yes out of obligation

Bored

Feeling distant from partner

 

 

Not having sex:

Guilty

Low self-esteem and feeling like a bad person, or broken, for not being able to be normal for a partner

Anxiety from knowing saying no causes negative emotional responses

Tense and on guard, trying to avoid doing anything that could be taken as even slightly sexual or arousing

Feeling distant from partner

Expecting a fight to happen soon because they are hurt, stressed and feeling rejected and it usually bleeds out into small things becoming huge blow ups

Having to avoid all physical contact because it's unfair on them since you said no to sex

 

 

The majority of the times, I said yes. However, if I said no, it was because it had become so much that I just literally could not do it without having a very, very serious mental health issue caused by doing so. It's hard to subject yourself to feeling disgusting and used. Especially if you've had sexual trauma in your past. My options were basically feel miserable having sex, or feel miserable not having sex. Sometimes I took barely talking to my partner, hiding in my room (not even getting water if I was thirsty), not eating and trying to not exist to avoid sex for a day because the alternative was that mentally and emotionally bad for me. But, that doesn't mean I was happy go lucky enjoying the no sex time... 

 

6 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

No, it's not just when the sex is happening. It's 24/7 because you constantly know your partner will need it soon and you're in a constant state of trying to prepare for it while still being drained from the last time. And it's not a 'few minutes', sex for my partner was an hour minimum and I'm pretty sure I've heard Serran say the same thing (at least 40 mins) in the past.

 

 

And yeah... I don't get the people who say few minutes for sex? Like, the shortest sexy times I've ever experienced was half an hour? With my ex it was 40 minutes from the time you started stimulating his penis to the orgasm... and he wasn't into foreplay, thankfully, so didn't have to extend it with that. But, often times it is an hour or more ? o.O I wish it was a few minutes! But, out of now five partners, I've never had sexual encounters that were that short. 

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the more my relationship asked for sex, the less I felt I could give.

after the first month: Okay with sexual talk and touching because she wants it

after the 6th month: Not "okay" with it but would do for her and wondering why she wants so much

after 10th month: Actually feel like being raped when she kisses you, and forcibly get her off of you

after 1 year: Be broken up for a month because no one can be happy anymore and realize you are asexual

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Even accepting all that - which I do, and I've never denied, we still get back to the agency thing. Asexual doesn't want sex - that's what happens, whatever the sexual wants. Sexual wants sex - not going to happen unless the asexual does too.

 

I'm not attaching any blame, or saying the asexual shouldn't have the right to say no. I'm just asking for recognition of how it works instead of putting up chaff about how awful sex can be for an asexual.

 

I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't see how someone could want sex but not anything else. That's just me being ace and not understanding of sex though, I guess.

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I still don't understand why there would be a lack of cuddly things, but there would be sex. To me that's the part that's confusing about what you are trying to say

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Following this conversation. I don't see why it is so hard for asexuals to see what @Telecaster68is saying. It is simple circumstances. Short of rape/abuse, an ace can make his preference happen unilaterally. A sexual can't.

 

Both aces and sexuals compromise or impose to varying degrees in a relationship, but the odds are stacked against the sexual inherently, because they cannot actualize their preference without the cooperation of someone opposed to it. This isn't laying blame on everyone, but the reluctance to acknowledge this basic handicap that is unfair, but also unavoidable has started reading like rubbing salt to a wound. Not just are you at a disadvantage, it cannot even be recognized. I have no idea why. It is just basic rational reading of the situation, not a blame game.

 

Sexual wants sex (S), Ace doesn't (A)

 

S asks + A agrees = Sex

S doesn't ask + A is not asked = no sex

S asks + A disagrees = no sex

S waits to be asked + A doesn't ask = no sex

 

Rest you can argue up and down the town with selective examples of suffering. 

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1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

Following this conversation. I don't see why it is so hard for asexuals to see what @Telecaster68is saying. It is simple circumstances. Short of rape/abuse, an ace can make his preference happen unilaterally. A sexual can't.

 

Both aces and sexuals compromise or impose to varying degrees in a relationship, but the odds are stacked against the sexual inherently, because they cannot actualize their preference without the cooperation of someone opposed to it. This isn't laying blame on everyone, but the reluctance to acknowledge this basic handicap that is unfair, but also unavoidable has started reading like rubbing salt to a wound. Not just are you at a disadvantage, it cannot even be recognized. I have no idea why. It is just basic rational reading of the situation, not a blame game.

I sort of understand I think. I just think the original phrasing of the question was a little confusing. It got me thinking more about a relationship without anything but sex and I don't see how that would be good for anyone. I can't think of anyone who would want this, but there is probably someone. I see the handicap for the sexual people, but neither side understands the handicap for the other. I don't see how no sex could be bad, and sexual people don't see how no sex could be good. As I've said before, I could probably bring myself to do the deed sometimes on occasions, but not nearly enough for someone who wants it. And for me this limitation sometimes shows itself physically. It's hard to explain, but I think it's easier for some sexuals to have less than it is for some asexual to have more

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and again, there is misunderstanding from both groups. We don't understand them, and they don't understand us. We're both going to have differing opinions, probably until the end of time

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Another thing, if someone I'm in a relationship with wants to have sex more than I can give, I would be fine if they moved in to a poly relationship if they tell me. I don't know if that would work for everyone, but I think it could help settle it so that no one is really giving up anything. The person in the relationship could be my QPP, and they could have someone for the sexual stuff they want as well.

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19 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's not about wanting sex in an otherwise arid relationship, it's about understanding that a fundamental ability to choose something important about your life - whether, when and how you have sex - has been removed unilaterally by the closest person in your life. 

 

This isn't petulant whining. Having a degree of control and agency over things that are important to us is important in our sense of having a worthwhile life, and its lack is often a cause in depression. It also is a lack of reciprocity, which makes most people feel undervalued in a relationship, again leading to depression and emotional withdrawal. 

@Telecaster68 Yes. I do sympathize 🌸

 

(1) The asexual can say no. (2) you are a gentleman and love her.

So what happens is out of your control (1) and how you can respond to it is out of your control (2).

Result is a lack of agency that can cause depression.

 

(3) Lack of reciprocity. (4) you are who you are and it makes you feel undervalued.

Again, what happens is out of your control (3) and how one feels is difficult to change (4)

Again lack of agency. Emotional withdrawal is a natural reaction but will start a vicious circle. 

 

I have no answers. It’s Life 101:

- You can’t always have what you want 

- Some things you have to deal with on your own

 

Best wishes to you in a very difficult situation 🍀

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's nothing to do with enjoying sex or not, it's just logic. 

 

I'm starting to think it's not that asexuals can't recognise it, but they won't recognise it, because it creates a cognitive dissonance with the in-group identity of asexuals being victims. 

I don't understand sex and I never will. That's my problem, and I'll have to live with that. But people who do understand sex don't understand that I don't understand, and take my lack of understanding as ignorance. I personally don't think I'm a victim of anything though

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You'd be surprised by how much women can understand a reluctance to have sex. You spend your life wary of unwelcome gropes, potential for rape. Even a FULLY sexual nymphomaniac fully "gets" sex aversion when you don't want sex. Forget threats from strangers and rape, a lousy sexual partner in a consensual relationship can make sex very unpleasant. Men are more likely to get off regardless. Also less likely to be physically dominated, touched roughly in tender places to the point of getting tears and more. We are talking about sex being unpleasant and repulsive and painful? Women are disproportionately injured as a result of sex. We UNDERSTAND reluctance, aversion, drain, violation, even if we are sexual.

 

In the sense of, I have absolutely no difficulty understanding my ace's reluctance. I catch it way before he objects. Every single time. Because I've been there. I know what a wary silence of the body means, and I don't need it to escalate to a flinch and refusal to not wish to harm him. (you may be able to recognize this sequence within you when you are averse. You freeze, you move away, you object. How did I, a sexual know this?)

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2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You'd be surprised by how much women can understand a reluctance to have sex. You spend your life wary of unwelcome gropes, potential for rape. Even a FULLY sexual nymphomaniac fully "gets" sex aversion when you don't want sex. Forget threats from strangers and rape, a lousy sexual partner in a consensual relationship can make sex very unpleasant. Men are more likely to get off regardless. Also less likely to be physically dominated, touched roughly in tender places to the point of getting tears and more. We are talking about sex being unpleasant and repulsive and painful? Women are disproportionately injured as a result of sex. We UNDERSTAND reluctance, aversion, drain, violation, even if we are sexual.

that sounds a little bit more like rape aversion than sex aversion

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What can be compromised, and what can be expected.  For me there's a general notion that if I'm with someone we try to see where our interests overlap, and otherwise each accommodate the other somehow to some degree.  If we share enough interests and joy, or if we find equivalent things to accommodate and are comfortable/satisfied, maybe even work in something very fun to emphasize the reciprocity of the exchange, maybe it can work out -- depending on how often each partner enjoys the mutual accommodation play, and whether the satisfaction is enough for each to offset the discomfort or 'meh' quality of accommodating for the other.

 

The 'no' is a bit of a damper, a wet blanket, and it can be a very powerful one at that, so the more playful yesses there are I'm thinking can take some pressure off.

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3 minutes ago, squaggly said:

that sounds a little bit more like rape aversion than sex aversion

It is the aversion of an unpleasant experience. You can love your sexual partner but wish he grabbed your boobs more gently. Men usually are physically stronger than women. "Rough" behavior by a loved one - even unintended - is something that is unpleasant. Aversion is finding sex unpleasant, right?

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At times, the mental pain from sex makes physical pain, and there were times where I just couldn't react to things because my brain was a bit shut down from it. I can be okay with sex in moderation, but there is a line that makes it unbearable. If the sex gets past that line, the relationship is doomed to failure, not because of my own actions or their own actions, but because I just can't handle it. I don't think a lack of sex is something that could make someone mentally shut down like that

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2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It is the aversion of an unpleasant experience. You can love your sexual partner but wish he grabbed your boobs more gently. Men usually are physically stronger than women. "Rough" behavior by a loved one - even unintended - is something that is unpleasant. Aversion is finding sex unpleasant, right?

sex aversion is finding all sex unpleasant, not just the rough parts, but I understand what you mean

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All I am saying is that don't be too hasty to judge people as not understanding. For that matter, even men understand unwelcome sexual demands - say someone who got too sore from an enthusiastic partner and really doesn't want sex for another day, but she is still horny and touching him.

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1 minute ago, squaggly said:

sex aversion is finding all sex unpleasant, not just the rough parts, but I understand what you mean

you don't have to be averse all the time to understand the nature of aversion. All it takes is one time when your personal autonomy is violated. And voila, you have an insight into what that feels like, even if it isn't happening all the time to you as it may be for someone else.

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2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

All I am saying is that don't be too hasty to judge people as not understanding. For that matter, even men understand unwelcome sexual demands - say someone who got too sore from an enthusiastic partner and really doesn't want sex for another day, but she is still horny and touching him.

Sorry, I'm just not very good at explaining myself, and I'm taking my frustration out on you

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Guest Deus Ex Infinity
10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Would you accept a sexual partner disinterested in cuddling you or mostly refusing and allowing only on their terms?

 

Replace cuddling here by whatever your form of necessary intimacy is. Obviously other than sex.

It's a very individual and personal question. As for me, I couldn't imagine having a long-term relationship without any close physical interactions or sex once in a while at all. 

 

But again: Everyone of us is different so I'm very sure that there are people out there who could be happy with it.

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In response to the point you were originally trying to make, I agree with you. Asexual people do give up less in a relationship a lot of the time. But I can see a reason for this, which I mentioned not too long ago. The consequences of too much sex for an ace person (many times not enough for a sexual person) is much greater potentially than I could see too little for the sexual person.

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I really didn't want to delve too deep in my personal life for this post, and I'm not crying for sympathy, but here it goes...

 

In the one relationship I've been in, the sexualness of it was bearable at the beginning, but it quickly became too much for me. Even in our almost year long relationship, there was no sex, just close encounters with it. I subconsciously pushed myself away from her, which caused relationship problems and made me feel guilty and useless. At some point in our relationship, the sex became way too much for me and there was some attempted suicide somewhere from it. She ended up talking me out of it though, so that's nice. The problems were still there, and I started mentally separating myself from her whenever sex came up. She thought I was high all the time, but I've never done drugs in my life. All this weirdness because the sex was too much for me

 

Her side of it was different though. She saw me as uncaring and unloving, and she thought pushing more sex would help.

 

Our relationship would have been fine from my side if sex was absent, but I'm not sure about her. Since all my knowledge is one-sided, I can't see both sides. I do think that it would have been easier for her to have less than it would be for me to have more.

7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Clearly, everyone is different - what's your personal response though?

 

I'm finding it fascinating how much trouble asexuals are having with this idea, and I honestly have no idea why.

the response is in what you quoted. 

21 minutes ago, Deus Ex Infinity said:

As for me, I couldn't imagine having a long-term relationship without any close physical interactions or sex once in a while at all

 

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3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

it does mean the sexual has no agency in a very important part of the relationship, and that's an additional source of pain in itself.

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

I don't see why it is so hard for asexuals to see what @Telecaster68is saying. It is simple circumstances. Short of rape/abuse, an ace can make his preference happen unilaterally. A sexual can't.

This is so frustrating Y_Y 

 

Think of it like this (though at this point it's starting to seem like a waste of effort typing because apparently it will never get through?)

 

The choice for the asexual is in the situation we are talking about is: ''You have sex with me or I'm leaving you.'' So the asexual has to have sex with their partner, or the partner will leave. 

 

The choice for the sexual person in the situation anamikanon and Tele are talking about is: ''I don't want to have sex with you, and you can leave if you're not happy with that''. So the sexual person is forced to live in celibacy.. or leave the relationship.

 

On either side of the equation, there is the exact same amount of choice (and the exact same lack of choice). If the ace won't have sex, the relationship will fall apart and the sexual partner will leave (or they can CHOOSE to stay no matter how unhappy celibacy makes them). If the sexual partner demands sex and gives no other choice other than a break-up, the ace can CHOOSE to give sex so their partner will stay, no matter how unhappy sex makes the ace..or the ace can choose to leave.

 

If the sexual doesn't get sex and is unhappy with that, they have just as much choice to leave as the ace who is unhappy having to give sex but knows their partner will leave if they don't give it. 

 

In the situation we are talking about, the asexual doesn't have some magical control over how much sex that happens. It happens when and how often the sexual partner wants, or the sexual partner will leave. Just as in YOUR situation, the sexual partner doesn't have any control over whether or not intimacy happens at all, and you know for a fact that if you started demanding it and gave your partner an ultimatum, they may well leave you.. or you can leave.

 

In either of these situations, the partner giving into the demands (whether sexual or ace) is suffering, but please know that an ace can be the one with no control without it being rape. It completely depends on the personality of both partners involved and the dynamics of the relationship itself.

 

But no, being the ace doesn't automatically mean you have total control over how much intimacy happens in the relationship, that's the case for SOME mixed relationships, but not all of them.

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This isn't really an asexuality forum if it's overrun by sexuals telling asexuals what to think and trying to brainwash us into having sex with them.

 

Really, does no one see how perverted it is that people want to have sex with people who aren't willing or interested?

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I understand that I don't understand your feelings toward sex, I understand that you don't understand why I don't understand, and my lack of understanding makes me unable to understand why you don't understand my lack of understanding.

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28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But Ficto - rape thing is entirely the point. The asexual can push the relationship deal breaker of 'no' and see what happens, and mostly, especially in long relationships, the answer is nothing. Their partner sticks around and  tries to figure out what to  do. They can certainly sustain that position for months with no real consequences as pretty much nobody will end a relationship because their partner turned them down once, and the chances of rape (horrible though it is), are tiny.

 

If the sexual pushes the situation once, it's rape. So in practice, the asexual has control.

Serran was with her husband for, I think, 9 years? And I was with my sexual ex for 5 years. We are not talking about sexual people like you, who would choose to remain in the relationship despite celibacy. We are talking about sexuals who are very, very different from you. Just as your asexual partners are very, very different from me and Serran (we chose to give sex to keep our partners, your partner does NOT seem to be the type of woman who would be okay with that kind of ultimatum). We are speaking from our own personal experience of what happened in our own long term relationships. We had just as much choice to leave if we didn't want to have the sex as you have if you decide you can't live with celibacy any longer. It's NOT rape if you choose to have sex with your partner whenever they want and however they want it to stop them leaving, even if you yourself don't want the sex and would be happiest without it. That does not mean we had 'control' over the sex because our partners would have just left us if we did not give them sex or refused it for long enough. Just as your partner would probably leave you if you said 'start giving me sex or I'm leaving'.

 

And again, of course, I am not speaking for all mixed relationships. There are many different types. Some where the ace is given the ultimatum of 'give me sex or I'm leaving', some where the sexual is the one forced to live in celibacy or to make the choice to leave, and some where the partners can try to meet each other half way. I am speaking from personal experience, as is Serran (and others how have responded) and it's getting deeply frustrating being told we are wrong or incorrect about what we experienced for so many years :/

 

13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is a section for sexual partners

Yes but I think it was put in the wrong section because the title very clearly states: A question for asexuals, so of course asexuals are naturally going to be reading it and I can see why they'd be a little upset by some of the comments being made here about the ace experience.

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