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How are demisexuals or sapiosexuals classified under asexual?


anamikanon

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I hadn't even seen this section of the site till I was informed by someone that demisexuals and sapiosexuals are also a "variant" on the asexuality "spectrum". Now I am totally puzzled. I identify as both. But I definitely feel sexual attraction and full on sex drive and the whole bells and whistles to the point of occasional hypersexuality if those two conditions are met. How could this possibly be asexual? Even as a spectrum "edge case"? Or is it like normally asexual unless those conditions are met, so therefore... but frankly, I don't feel all that "asexual" even when those conditions are not met. I may not be attracted to people, but I definitely understand attraction, see the potential in a few interesting people and such. I have had asexual phases in the past and I know how "dead" on that front things can get.

 

That person had used it as an explanation for why I am able to have a reasonably good relationship with an asexual by saying that I am on the asexual spectrum myself. That makes no sense, because I am definitely sexually frustrated often and VERY interested. Or are there things like asexual demisexuals and sexual demisexuals or something?

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Asexual is used to refer to both the specific orientation and as a broader umbrella term. Sometimes one might see 'asexual' used to refer to demi and gray-ace people, often because our communities and experiences can intersect a lot. I suppose in some sense it's similar to how 'gay' is sometimes used to stand in for LGBTQA+.

I'm not sure how often 'asexual' is used as a label by demi and gray-ace people, but it's very common as an umbrella term.

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Demisexual and sapiosexual both typically fall under the graysexual umbrella. Graysexual means that a person rarely experiences sexual attraction and/or only experiences sexual attraction under specific conditions. It's a very broad umbrella and basically covers anything that isn't fully asexual but, for whatever reason, a person sees as making them distinctly less sexual. Maybe this means that they frequently experience sexual attraction that is at a very low level, but it could also mean that they very rarely experience sexual attraction but when they do it's very strong, or pretty much anything else. Demisexual falls under this umbrella because it is typically defined as only being able to experience sexual attraction toward people with whom someone has formed a close emotional bond. It doesn't make you asexual. 

 

I hope this helps! If I said anything weird or confusing, feel free to ask me about it. Sometimes I write things in ways that don't make a ton of sense.

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TheLastOfSheila
31 minutes ago, Andiamo said:

Demisexual falls under this umbrella because it is typically defined as only being able to experience sexual attraction toward people with whom someone has formed a close emotional bond. It doesn't make you asexual. 

I agree with this totally, however I have seen some opinions that would not agree with yours.  Personally, I have a problem with asexuality being referred to as "a spectrum".  I have not seen any evidence that, in my mind, supports this theory.  As a result, I find myself struggling to find a true definition of what defines a person as asexual.  There was another thread, a rather long one, where the OP was questioning what exactly is a sexual Ace, or as I put it, what is a sexual asexual?  To me, that is like asking the definition of a homicidal pacifist.  When I asked about the possibility of us all being on one spectrum, where asexuality is at one end, and hypersexuality is at the other end, with most falling somewhere in between, I was lectured about how some asexuals do have a strong sex drive, and although not attracted to anyone, will still seek out partnered sex just to satisfy that urge.  I know of many "sexuals" who do the same thing, so, I dunno, would someone like that truly be asexual?

 

In it's efforts to be inclusive and welcoming to all, AVEN seems to take the stance that if one says they are asexual, then they are, period.  What does not seem to be understood is that an umbrella that large can make things confusing for some of us.

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Or alternatively...

 

Demisexual and sapiosexual aren't asexual. They're variants of being sexual.

 

Demisexual is generally taken on AVEN (and outside of AVEN, Tumblr and academia, it's not really a thing at all) to mean that someone needs an existing emotional bond devoid of sexuality before they want a relationship to become sexual - in other words they only fancy people who are already friends, and it hardly ever happens, and between relationships, they have no particular need for partnered sex.

 

Contrast with sexuals, who also sometimes fall in love with friends, and because they're sexual, it involves sex; or they entertain the possibility of sex from the outset of a new relationship but only actually want sex when they have some kind of emotional bond (rather than ever wanting casual/ONS/FWB type sex because they're horny). It's a subtle difference, and confuses people - particularly demisexuals who haven't had the experience of a friendship becoming sexual, because they experience relationships in exactly the same way as asexuals.

 

Sapiosexual means 'only wants sex with smart people'. Nothing asexual about that, it's just specifying a particular type of person you want to have sex with, as opposed to asexuals, who don't want to have sex with anyone, left to themselves.

 

This is what happens when sublabels get bandied around and people adopting them can't be challenged.

 

Thinking up a latinate sounding word for a type of sexual behaviour doesn't make it asexual.

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Many demisexual people feel similar to asexual people when they're not interested in anyone. They may feel like they face similar problems of being questioned as if it's a medical problem, being judged for going extended periods without sexual relationships, etc. On the other hand, they may not feel that way at all. But as a community there's a history of inclusion, especially since many demisexual people first think they're asexual.

 

I don't see why sapiosexual people would consider themselves under the asexual umbrella or in the grey area (though they may feel the grey element separate from the sapio element), because it's not about how much they feel sexual attraction/desire, but rather than what turns them onto others. Like, someone who's attracted to men with dad bods isn't necessarily less sexual than someone who's attracted to muscular men, so why would people who are attracted to intelligence be considered less sexual? (I'm keeping this simple, so this doesn't express my full perspective on sapiosexuality.) 

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everywhere and nowhere

I just thought: is there a general category for "experiencing sexual attraction based on criteria other than gender"? I think it would be very helpful, that's where sapiosexuals, some pansexual and polysexual people could fit... Sexology qualifies orientations based on gender of desire object and indeed asexuality can also fit into this scheme, but there are people for whom gender is indifferent and yet they wouldn't necessarily identify as bisexual because they find different criteria relevant.

Not to mention that the division of orientations into hetero-/homo-/bi-/asexual jams more and more as we understand that there are other genders than just womanly women and manly men...

For me just another reason to not believe that science explains all.

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1 minute ago, Nowhere Girl said:

there are people for whom gender is indifferent and yet they wouldn't necessarily identify as bisexual because they find different criteria relevant.

If they actively want sex with men and women, they're still bisexual. They might be bisexuals who only fancy smart people, or people with green eyes, or people with tattoos,  or muscular people... but they're still bisexual.

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Thanks everyone, It has been food for thought. Still a bit confused, but it doesn't really matter on a personal level I suppose. I feel what I feel.

 

I do feel asexual between relationships or with people who I am not attracted to, but given the full and proper sexual attraction and enjoyment I feel with those I am attracted to, seemed strange.

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2 hours ago, anamikanon said:

But I definitely feel sexual attraction and full on sex drive and the whole bells and whistles to the point of occasional hypersexuality if those two conditions are met

sounds like you're sexual my friend, no need to worry over orientation. 

 

If the idea of demisexuality or sapiosexuality helps you better identify how your attraction works, that is a good thing! but demisexuality is specifically people who do not feel sexual desire at all, and little to no sexual attraction. But with some people who they've formed a close bond with, their attraction and desire "switches on", and for that person they're sexual for. 

 

Sapiosexuality is one of those labels which one should be careful when identifying by - because the reality of sexual attraction is that it responds in most people to many different things. Most people are more sexually attracted to people who are closer matches to their intellectual ideas and habits, and for some this is a more significant factor. Generally I don't encourage sapiosexuality to be considered as one's orientation as a whole; however for a rare few people it's important enough to their attraction that the label is necessary to effectively express their orientation. 

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2 hours ago, anamikanon said:

That person had used it as an explanation for why I am able to have a reasonably good relationship with an asexual by saying that I am on the asexual spectrum myself. That makes no sense, because I am definitely sexually frustrated often and VERY interested. Or are there things like asexual demisexuals and sexual demisexuals or something?

it's important to not fall into false belief that asexuality is equivilent to sexual frustration. sexual frustration can occur for many reasons, and anyone who feels lost is encouraged to ask questions openly or to consider looking for a sex or relationships counselor to help understand and heal from their frustrations. 

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9 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I feel what I feel.

:) this is what is most important! remember that! it is very very rewarding to have a word to describe how we feel efficiently; but the word is just a tool - what is most important is that we are able to acknowledge and accept our experience, and work with it as we move forward with our sexuality, and in our relationships. 

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2 minutes ago, float on said:

but demisexuality is specifically people who do not feel sexual desire at all, and little to no sexual attraction. But with some people they form a close bond with, their attraction and desire switches on, and for that person they're sexual for.

 

...

 

for a rare few people it's important enough to their attraction that the label is necessary to effectively express their orientation. 

That is what I am saying. I don't feel sexual attraction/interest/desire unless I have closeness with someone AND they stimulate me intellectually as well. Though I suppose intellect comes first for me to have an interest in the person at all for closeness to form. But if I "click" with someone intellectually AND I feel close to them.... bring it on! But once that happens, I am definitely sexual.

 

Without it, nothing. Socially I don't even act particularly like a woman (though sexually, I'm hetero). More androgynous. No interest in men in general. My real name is gender neutral, and I've actually had people who interacted with me without meeting me believe I was a man for years. In the sense I don't even act/relate to men like a woman without the attraction.

 

I guess I have commitment issues with labels. There are a dozen others that seem to fit too at times and not at others.

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6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

That is what I am saying. I don't feel sexual attraction/interest/desire unless I have closeness with someone AND they stimulate me intellectually as well. Though I suppose intellect comes first for me to have an interest in the person at all for closeness to form. But if I "click" with someone intellectually AND I feel close to them.... bring it on! But once that happens, I am definitely sexual.

 

Without it, nothing.

ah; then you are demisexual. I am not the best person to ask if you should or shouldn't also identify as sapiosexual; I personally could also identify as quioromantic or autochorissexual but I choose not to because demiromantic and greysexual fit my better. I like the precision of "simplest label". if the context arises, I identify the other words I've found that help explain the way my orientation behaves; but most the time I just identify by the more common and abstracted terminology. 

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24 minutes ago, float on said:

it's important to not fall into false belief that asexuality is equivilent to sexual frustration. sexual frustration can occur for many reasons, and anyone who feels lost is encouraged to ask questions openly or to consider looking for a sex or relationships counselor to help understand and heal from their frustrations. 

That isn't what I said. I said I was in a relationship with an asexual and definitely frustrated and very interested, so how could I be on an "asexual spectrum" as well.

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10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So if you never met an intelligent person again, you wouldn't miss sex?

Even if I met an intelligent person, I wouldn't miss sex unless i also formed an emotional bond.

 

That said, it is possible for me to miss being in a relationship without feeling a thing for anyone.

 

I am actually going through that right now. I am really interested in meeting someone to have a relationship with (in addition to my ace - I'm poly). I've been irritated and furious with Tinder, I've been bored on OKC other than one chap I didn't mind chatting with and he's not the emotional connect type, so this isn't going to go anywhere. And this is with me TRYING to date as well as being in a relationship with my ace, so I am in theory actively sexual. But only with him.

 

Talk of crossed connections.

 

I have moments when I desperately want someone I can have no holds barred sex with. Except every candidate will always be unsuitable till those two conditions work.

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edited out content I didn't like saying 'cause i don't trust my brain sometimes and I'm starting to see red flags of it.

 

idk I don't know how to talk right now and I need a nap sorry

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30 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I have moments when I desperately want someone I can have no holds barred sex with.

Wanting partnered sex in itself, for your own benefit, regardless of anyone being available, is pretty much sexual. Maybe your switch has been flipped by having a partner you're close to, so currently you're effectively sexual; but you're not getting enough, so you're sexually frustrated in the same way a sexual would be and wanting more.

 

Does that almost square the circle?

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15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Wanting partnered sex in itself, for your own benefit, regardless of anyone being available, is pretty much sexual. Maybe your switch has been flipped by having a partner you're close to, so currently you're effectively sexual; but you're not getting enough, so you're sexually frustrated in the same way a sexual would be and wanting more.

 

Does that almost square the circle?

Yes

 

I am not denying being sexual. It also can't be denied that I am demi/sapio - and if demi is on asexual spectrum.... it is confusing. It is like having the frustrations of both asexuals and sexuals.

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Suddenly I realized what you're asking. I’m sorry for my poor communication skills. I am very embarrased and hope I can help out now. 

 

 

 

 

 

Some people call everything that isn't sexual as “ace spectrum”. But there isn’t really a spectrum of asexuality at all; it is an informal use of language. 

 

 

The sexuality spectrum includes homesexuality and the like; what gender or sex is attractive. But on a second dimension it also includes how the attraction behaves or manifests, which is where asexuality and demisexuality come into the picture. 

 

 

  • Allosexual refers to the majority who readily feel sexual attraction and/or sexual desire.
  • There are many facets to sexual attraction and desire and terms like autochorrisexuality, romanticism, physical attractiveness, sex-drive, sapiosexuality, hypersexuality, responsive sexual desire, and many other terms exist for some of those facets.
  • However for some people, terms like hypersxual, autochorissexual, or sapiosexual are a defining aspect of their sexual orientation, and they identify by that term as their orientation. 

 

  • An asexual person does not feel sexual desire. They also do not feel sexual attraction, as sexual desire is in most cases the hallmark of sexual attraction. Sometimes there is exception to either such as autochorisexuality and libido, or romanticism, which are often for allosexuals an essential part of their sexual attraction. Asexuality is best describes as “a person who does not experience sexual attraction” because it is inherently implication of subjectivity through attraction.
  • Ultimately orientation is a best-fit model, an adaptive tool to help people find themselves; because every humans orientation is unique in the details and expression of their attractions preferences and desires. 
  • A greysexual person is somewhere between ace and allo; some labels could be considered a grey label as they are sometimes claimed by an ace, sometimes claimed by someone grey, and other times claimed by someone allosexual 
  • A demisexual is a grey orientation label. Under some ciircumstances they apppear completely ace, and sometimes someone who identifies as ace discovers they are actually demisexual when they feel sexual attraction or desire for a partner or close friend. But most demisexuals either identify as if it is its own orientation, and separate from ace, separate from grey, and separate from allo. Some allosexuals identify as demisexual. 

 

I could also also explain other orientations too but I think you’re mostly enquiring about demisexuality and sapiosexuality. 

 

 

 

Under normal circumstances I would consider demisexuality a sexual orientation, just as asexuality is a sexual orientation. But I do acknowledge that some people like to refer to the different identities on the dimension of ace-allo as “ace spectrum”. 

 

Some demisexuals identify as allosexual; others as greysexual; others as asexual; but most identify as demisexual. I prefer considering demisexual as its own orientation, and greysexuality as an umbrella term that can be inclusive of demisexuality. I find too many people think of ace/allo as black and white, which makes it stressful for people in between to have confidence in their orientation. 

 

 

 

Normally I would consider sapiosexuality not an orientation, but I do know that for some people, and perhaps you are one of them, it is an essential part of their orientation and as such is obviously an orientation label for them. Sapiosexuality is usually one of many facets of sexual attraction and desire, but for some people it is enough of a factor that they necessarily identify by the label as an orientation. I will wholeheartedly endorse it as an orientation for anyone who feels it necessary; but for those asking about it I feel obliged to acknowledge that it’s otherwise a pretty common experience of sexuality. 

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4 minutes ago, float on said:

Under normal circumstances I would consider demisexuality a sexual orientation, just as asexuality is a sexual orientation. But I do acknowledge that some people like to refer to the different identities on the dimension of ace-allo as “ace spectrum”. that they necessarily identify by the label as an orientation. I will wholeheartedly endorse it as an orientation for anyone who feels it necessary; but for those asking about it I feel obliged to acknowledge that it’s otherwise a pretty common experience of sexuality. 

This actually makes a lot of sense. The whole post. So it isn't me who is confused, but the chap who told me all that.

 

I just found it completely absurd that he thought I could adapt to my ace partner because I was on the ace spectrum myself as a demisexual - because I most certainly don't feel remotely ace about him. I think he confused ace spectrum/graysexuals as not sexual and thought that I too don't want sex, so compromise is easy - or something, when in reality it is the opposite. I have a high sex drive and the chap I do end up attracted to gets the full blast of it. Not easy for either of us.

 

I hear you on the sapio. It is indeed a strong requirement for me, but here is no particular need to stress it either. Those who are in are in. Those who are not are irrelevant anyway. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Wanting partnered sex in itself, for your own benefit, regardless of anyone being available, is pretty much sexual. Maybe your switch has been flipped by having a partner you're close to, so currently you're effectively sexual; but you're not getting enough, so you're sexually frustrated in the same way a sexual would be and wanting more.

 

Does that almost square the circle?

For the sake of animakanon I want to clarify that demisexuals can be thought of as “people who are effectively ace some of the time, and effectively allo other times”

 

there is a label that is similar to demisexuality but i forget it, describing people who slowly grow into attraction and desire over time. But for a demisexual, once the threshold of a close bond is met, it can be pretty quick or unexpected that they find themselves with sexual feelings for the person. 

 

 

Ultimately, demisexuality and other grey identities are fuzzy areas that aren’t quite ace, aren’t quite allo, or are somehow weirdly both. It is inappropriate to make blanket statements about if they are allo or ace in my opinion. Some people are more ace, others more allo, But most don’t identify either way for a real and valid reason: neither allo nor ace fits them correctly. 

 

 

The the last thing to know is that spontaneous sexual desire is the cliche way sexuality is felt - there is a person you like, and you fantasize about them, get aroused interacting with them, and have wanting to get physical with them.  Or - someone finds themselves inexplicably horny in the middle of the day. But these are spontaneous sexual desire, and about a third of women and an eighth of men just don’t experience desire this readily. The other way desire presents itself is responsive desire, which only generates a passion for physical intimacy during physical intimacy or more often - after some kind of foreplay, romantic courtship, physical tenderness, or sexual flirting, building up in response to the intimate stimulius with the right person.

 

 

 For some people, they do feel attraction, but before they know their desire first hand it might be difficult to identify. I don’t experience desire at all and so it took a lot of investigating to identify my sexual attraction.  I don’t know much outside of my experience to fairly represent who else needs experience to identify their attraction but I think people with responsive desire tend to be like me in that way, late bloomers as the cliche goes. 

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16 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

 

I just found it completely absurd that he thought I could adapt to my ace partner because I was on the ace spectrum myself as a demisexual - because I most certainly don't feel remotely ace about him. 

 

 

 

i know what  you mean :) it’s pretty frustrating trying to explain to some of my friend on this site that sexual attraction is fundamentally essential to sexuality, just like sexual desire is. They tell me and others that an ace is anyone who does not feel sexual desire; but I don’t feel sexual desire at all and actually struggle to understand it.

 

and if I were to be with an ace partner we wouldn’t have the same kind of energy/affection for each other. Unless they are closer to grey that the average ace, I would be depressed or self conscious in the relationship.  Yet for me with most allosexuals it’s the same way too. I doubt I’ll be lucky enough to find a perfect match but I’m hoping to find a way to be able to connect with a partner outside of sexuality and make that the basis of our orientation, so that if there isn’t quite a match in our sexual energy, we still can feel loved and appreciated and wanted, and can express our affection for each other confidently. And of course sometimes leaning more ace and other times more allo would help; but there’ll be times when one of us isn’t able to be sexual, and times when one of us really would want it - however that means for the pair they and I make - so having stability in the relationship outside of sex is critical for me. 

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1 hour ago, float on said:

 it’s pretty frustrating trying to explain to some of my friend on this site that sexual attraction is fundamentally essential to sexuality, just like sexual desire is. They tell me and others that an ace is anyone who does not feel sexual desire; but I don’t feel sexual desire at all and actually struggle to understand it.

 

I'm sexual and the ever-more-hairsplitting of how and why people want to have sex that asexuals on AVEN seem to revel in make no sense to me at all, even in the most intellectualising way. Attraction gets used as those it's experienced in isolation, with no object; desire can mean 'want', 'need', 'feel', 'get aroused' or pretty much anything else; things that are unequivocally sexual acts anywhere else (like in courts or general usage) are for some reason no longer sexual if someone who says they're asexual enjoys them; you can be a virgin even you've had PIV sex but you still feel you're a virgin; if you say you're an asexual, but want to have sex, you're still an asexual; if you describe your sexual needs in the same way as every other asexual ever but don't explicitly identify as asexual, then you're not asexual. 

 

If the Olympics included logical gymnastics, AVEN could clean up with gold medals.

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@Telecaster68 sure, I don't disagree with you - but attraction matters too. they both matter. People get hung-up either on the idea of targeted attraction and make errors in understanding the importance of desire; or they get hung-up on the part of attraction that is the desire for sex, and fail to understand that attraction can exist without desire. 

 

It's a lot more subjective to think about attraction void of desire tho, as sexual desire and sexual arousal both make any attraction into sexual attraction pretty undeniably as far as I know. But like for me, while I can feel arousal sometimes with my attraction, once I identify the physiology, emotions, sensations, and thoughts that come with sexual attraction; I don't need to feel aroused to know I'm feeling sexual attraction. And the only desire that ever comes with it is a craving for kissing. It's subjective because feeling butterflies vs. feeling warmth in the heart ain't universal, and a lot of the words that describe attraction when you're aboiding the idea of desire, are common for romantic attraction and liking charismatic people or caring about your close friends and family. "you like spending time with them" "you wanna know all about them"  lmao this doesn't properly identify why it's sexual sometimes and not other times....

 

but the more meaningful thing is that people chalk sexual folk up to being sex-hungry and constantly horny, which I supposed compared to an asexual is true :P but really sexual attraction is much more involved emotionally and physiologically than just desire. 

 

 

I didn't understand what you meant by "Attraction gets used as those it's experienced in isolation, with no object;"?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "desire can mean feel"? 

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7 hours ago, float on said:

there is a label that is similar to demisexuality but i forget it, describing people who slowly grow into attraction and desire over time. But for a demisexual, once the threshold of a close bond is met, it can be pretty quick or unexpected that they find themselves with sexual feelings for the person. 

Oh I need to know what this is. Looking it up. 

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binary suns

@lemon_lime omg I'm really sorry. my brain worked backwards, I got it backwards. fraysexuality is the label I wanted to suggest, and it's similar to lithsexuality. 

 

 

see normally for allosexual folk, they do in fact feel more attraction as the get closer to a person, get to know them better, as they flirt and hookup and stuff. the more they interact with sexual context, the more attracted to each other they feel. this is pretty normal - but for it to work inversely is not so normal. 

 

Some allo folk feel strong attraction when they first start hooking up/flirting/dating someone, but after some amount of time - whether a few days or weeks or whether it sustains for several years - this lust-fueled attraction dissipates and longer-term attraction closer to romantic attraction (but it is sexual for them as well as romantic) sets in and they still are attracted to each other. 

 

 

but for a lithsexual - they never get to hookups or dating. A lithsexual person feels attraction to people as long as it's emotionally distanced from actually happening - if the crush reciprocates the feelings and/or is interested in hooking up, the attraction disappears for the lithsexual. 

 

and for a fraysexual - they feel attracted to new people they don't know well, but getting to know the person personally interupts that attraction and it fades. 

 

so for both lithsexual and fraysexual - they like the idea of sexual connection, but aren't actually interested in following through. for the lith - returned interest makes it disappear. For the fray - knowing someone personally is a turn-off for them - it becomes weird and not okay. both types of greysexual identity is basically - the fantasy is attractive, but the reality is uninteresting. 

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10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

I do feel asexual between relationships or with people who I am not attracted to

Well, that just means sexual and not interested in those people, not asexual.  Sexuals don't feel sexual attraction to everyone.

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