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AVEN's Prioritization of Gender Issues


Pramana

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It is nice to have support, but I came to talk about Asexuality. I do realize though, Asexuals come from all walks of life. So people are naturally inclined to talk about themselves and their in-groups, and form their communities within the bigger community. I have nothing against this, and a single focus gets stale overtime. So it promotes conversation and interesting subjects.

 

Though I do find it strange the management style encourages unhomageneity in the community. As such actions are proven to lower trust, and understanding in the participants; as there is no true "community", but rather several clusters that don't interact and possibly do not get along.

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But the point of the matter is that PPS and Hotbox are both highly political boards. They're allowed to have a few threads on trans because trans is a political (and religious which also fits in PPS) issue. As the PPS mod, I try to keep the number of trans threads down (and I strongly advise others to keep it to a minimum) But sometimes I just can't merge two threads because they are different political trans related topics with different discussions and debates going on inside of them. And I feel that the trans people of AVEN deserve to have these discussions had.

 

And yeah, your gender shapes your life. As someone who doesn't identify with any gender, I can attest for that. I've gotten shit because I was a "girl that wears guys clothes". I've gotten shit because I don't try to look "pretty" often enough. I've gotten shit because, "Don't you want to do this thing and look more feminine?" Like, no. Sometimes I like to look "pretty" and I have my dresses. Sometimes I like to wear oversized guy clothes.

 

And if me not caring about what gender I'm viewed as shapes that much of my life, I can't imagine how much it shapes someone life to identify as a gender, and even more so if society doesn't call them by the gender they identify as.

 

So yeah, if them being trans shapes how they relate to asexuality, then that's in intersection between trans issues and ace issues, and I'm a strong believer that you can't support a group if you don't support the intersections. You can be talking about the struggles that females face without also talking about how black or Hispanic females get it worse. It's part of the discussion, and a relevant one, just as relevant as how being trans effects their asexuality and just as relevant as how being cis effects their asexuality.

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10 minutes ago, TheAP said:

And then there's the fact that this site seems to have a higher proportion of trans/NB people than average, for whatever reason. 

Right, this is what baffles me. 

 

Again, because this message simply cannot be repeated enough, everyone's perspective is important and valid. Trans intersectionality is a unique and important perspective that ought to be shared. 

 

What is not okay when non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome here, which is happening at a rate sufficient enough that AVEN - should it wish to maintain its reputation as the premiere asexuality visibility and education network - ought to look in to it a bit.

 

@butterflydreams I think those are the most useful questions for us all to be asking ourselves. This is your community, but - as a cis allosexual - it acutely isn't mine. I do strongly take this into consideration in regards to what I post and where I post it. I even mostly keep my bisexuality off of AVEN (unless it strictly relates to the convo); there are plenty of LGBT+ communities out there in which I can voice my bi woes, but AVEN is just one of a few asexual communities. The ace community here (cis or trans or anything in between) should come first, and I think the rest of us ought to just be considerate about what else we bring into the forums and where it goes, and on whose toes we may be treading when we say certain things. 

 

I'm saying this because I want to make sure that everyone knows I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome here. I think it's kind of odd that we have attracted such a massive trans/NB community, but I'm not trying to suggest anyone leave. It just would be nice to see people considerate of the fact that this space belongs to ace people (all kinds of ace people) first, and to see mod policies and behaviors that emphasize that concept. 

 

It's a difficult line to walk. I just would hate to see more ace people forced out of their own space, that's all.

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1 minute ago, Chimeric said:

What is not okay when non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome here, which is happening at a rate sufficient enough that AVEN - should it wish to maintain its reputation as the premiere asexuality visibility and education network - ought to look in to it a bit.

I don't understand how non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome. Generalized statements about cis people are also forbidden by the ToS.

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2 minutes ago, TheAP said:

I don't understand how non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome. Generalized statements about cis people are also forbidden by the ToS

Do you like football? 

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Just now, Chimeric said:

Do you like football? 

Um, do you mean American football or soccer? I don't really watch either, but I can get into the World Cup sometimes. Not sure where you're going with this, though.

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butterflydreams
9 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

What is not okay when non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome here, which is happening at a rate sufficient enough that AVEN - should it wish to maintain its reputation as the premiere asexuality visibility and education network - ought to look in to it a bit.

But what I’m wondering is why they’re being made to feel unwelcome. If it’s from trans people saying things like “ooo, mean cis people, they suck, rabble rabble rabble”, then hell no, that is not ok. There used to be a thread in gender discussions called “annoying things cis people say” and it actually got changed, based on that.

 

However, if they’re being made to feel unwelcome because they invalidated someone’s trans identity or insisted on misgendering someone (which has happened), that’s something I’d hope you’d agree we can’t have here. Because that’s making trans aces feel unwelcome in what should also be their space.

 

The friction, I think, comes from when you have asexual people arguing that this is their forum and they should be allowed to hold any views they want. And some people, asexual or otherwise, have the view that trans people aren’t valid. So should the right to hold that view supersede the rights of trans asexuals who are on the boards as well? I don’t have an answer, but I think that’s what some people think is being argued. 

 

19 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

 I think those are the most useful questions for us all to be asking ourselves. This is your community, but - as a cis allosexual - it acutely isn't mine. I do strongly take this into consideration in regards to what I post and where I post it. I even mostly keep my bisexuality off of AVEN (unless it strictly relates to the convo); there are plenty of LGBT+ communities out there in which I can voice my bi woes, but AVEN is just one of a few asexual communities. The ace community here (cis or trans or anything in between) should come first, and I think the rest of us ought to just be considerate about what else we bring into the forums and where it goes, and on whose toes we may be treading when we say certain things. 

 

I'm saying this because I want to make sure that everyone knows I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome here. I think it's kind of odd that we have attracted such a massive trans/NB community, but I'm not trying to suggest anyone leave. It just would be nice to see people considerate of the fact that this space belongs to ace people (all kinds of ace people) first, and to see mod policies and behaviors that emphasize that concept. 

I guess I always felt like allosexual people definitely had a place here, so we can get an idea of comparative experiences. That’s just my personal feelings though. Truth be told, I couldn’t hack it on most of the trans or general LGBT communities out there because there’s just too much emphasis on sex. I need AVEN for that aspect. 

 

As for why there’s such a large trans contingent here, I think that’s because asexuality is over-represented in the the trans population, much like other marginal sexualities. And if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. At least, it does to me. If you have dysphoria, maybe you’re less keen on the sexytimes. 

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11 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

Do you like football? 

Baking in a football forum is not apples-to-apples of trans members on AVEN. Football and baking are hobbies. Trans and asexual identities are discriminated against.

 

But, for the sake of your argument, let's say it is.

 

If this were a football forum, and a baker came on and said, "I'm a baker, and I like football, and I want to talk about how those two things are connected." Then I'd say, "Cool. I'd like to hear a different POV of football." 

 

However, there's another flaw with this argument. AVEN isn't a purely asexual forum. Yes, we like to focus on ace issues, but we're not going to force people to talk only about asexuality. In PPS, members can talk about any political, philosophical, or scientific things they want. They don't have to limit it to, "The politics of asexuality." They can talk about string theory for all I care. In Gender Discussion, they can talk about whatever they want. They don't have to focus it on, "The genders of asexuality." They can talk about being owlgender for all I care. These boards provide subtopics for people that want to just talk to other asexuals, but don't want to talk about asexuality 24/7.

 

And one last issue. Trans asexuals is an intersection of asexuality. Asexuals can be trans. So if we're all talking about, "#AsexualProblems!" or "Asexual Bingo!" and a trans person says, "Yeah, when I come out as ace people say, 'I wouldn't want to fuck a girl with a dick anyways.' and it makes me feel invalidated." Then why can't they? That's an issue that they face both because they're asexual AND trans. It's both an ace problem AND a trans problem for them. And every community should support it's intersections. If I want to support my black friend who is discriminated against, I can't just focus on the fact that she's black. I also gotta take into consideration that she's female, because that's a cause for discrimination too.

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Joe the Stoic
20 minutes ago, TheAP said:

I don't understand how non-trans people are made to feel unwelcome. Generalized statements about cis people are also forbidden by the ToS.

And yet, as Pan noted, this stuff is tolerated far more.

 

In fact, I think Pan highlighted a lot of problems with this website, more or less hitting the nail on the head for why this site is sometimes called TVEN.  It would be nice if the Gender Forum could be a self-contained success.  The problem is that it has overflowed and essentially turned the whole site into the Gender Forum.  The standards for determining transphobia or bigoted content are among the most asinine ever conceived.  I have seen complaints in Sites Comments and read through scores of declassified threads that show people getting harshly punished for what is otherwise a friendly, casual conversation.  That AVEN refuses to see a difference between "I think having a penis makes you a man" and "I'm going to murder transgender people in restrooms" is the root of all this griping.  It's a blatantly dishonest and unethical way to administer the site.

 

When hundreds of asexuals who are rather earnest people will be driven away just because they have sincere opinions that don't please transgender people, you can't really call this a site for asexuality anymore.  Clearly being transgender is more valued here.  Various governments have proved that calling yourself Communist doesn't make your society fair or equal, and AVEN has proved that calling yourself an asexuality site doesn't make you about asexuality.  If certain LGBT groups demand that we alienate half our community in order to provide an excessive level of comfort to a handful of folks, and the site acquiesces, there is no longer a case for this site being about asexuality.  It's a trans site with an asexual skin, nothing more.

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But I also know of people who feel uncomfortable on the site due to invalidation of their identities. So it's a two-way street. And it's not fair to say the site is more about trans than asexuality. Invalidation of asexuality-related identities is probably dealt with just as strongly. It's just that we want to make the site a comfortable place for people of all identities, not just the ones relating to asexuality. (And frankly, I'm more sympathetic to those who feel unwelcome due to their identity being invalidated than those who feel unwelcome because they can't state their opinions. That's because someone identifying a certain way doesn't affect others, while stating an offensive opinion can hurt people.)

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6 minutes ago, Joe Parrish said:

And yet, as Pan noted, this stuff is tolerated far more.

 

In fact, I think Pan highlighted a lot of problems with this website, more or less hitting the nail on the head for why this site is sometimes called TVEN.  It would be nice if the Gender Forum could be a self-contained success.  The problem is that it has overflowed and essentially turned the whole site into the Gender Forum.  The standards for determining transphobia or bigoted content are among the most asinine ever conceived.  I have seen complaints in Sites Comments and read through scores of declassified threads that show people getting harshly punished for what is otherwise a friendly, casual conversation.  That AVEN refuses to see a difference between "I think having a penis makes you a man" and "I'm going to murder transgender people in restrooms" is the root of all this griping.  It's a blatantly dishonest and unethical way to administer the site.

 

When hundreds of asexuals who are rather earnest people will be driven away just because they have sincere opinions that don't please transgender people, you can't really call this a site for asexuality anymore.  Clearly being transgender is more valued here.  Various governments have proved that calling yourself Communist doesn't make your society fair or equal, and AVEN has proved that calling yourself an asexuality site doesn't make you about asexuality.  If certain LGBT groups demand that we alienate half our community in order to provide an excessive level of comfort to a handful of folks, and the site acquiesces, there is no longer a case for this site being about asexuality.  It's a trans site with an asexual skin, nothing more.

Why should peopel be allowed to say, "You have a dick, therefore you're a man"? It's insulting and offensive. If someone is anti-trans, I'd think things would go along far better if the discussions were more about trying to see the other side rather than just insulting each other. That's my point in being PPS mod. PPS discussions should be focused on seeing the other side, not just yelling out insults.

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Joe the Stoic
Just now, TheAP said:

But I also know of people who feel uncomfortable on the site due to invalidation of their identities. So it's a two-way street. And it's not fair to say the site is more about trans than asexuality. Invalidation of asexuality-related identities is probably dealt with just as strongly. It's just that we want to make the site a comfortable place for people of all identities, not just the ones relating to asexuality. (And frankly, I'm more sympathetic to those who feel unwelcome due to their identity being invalidated than those who feel unwelcome because they can't state their opinions. That's because someone identifying a certain way doesn't affect others, while stating an offensive opinion can hurt people.)

Except, as Pan noted, other forms of invalidation and insults happen that aren't enforced.

 

And speaking as someone who gets invalidated as an asexual, even by people I consider close, it's no big deal.  All I prove by trying to prevent someone else from making a point is that I think it's bullshit too and that I am scared that people are catching on.  That's what the Catholic Church proved when it exiled Galileo.  It knew he was onto something, but they couldn't admit being wrong because then they couldn't keep asking for tithes to fund a faith that may be wrong.  It was a scam then, and it's a scam now.

 

1 minute ago, FaerieFate said:

Why should peopel be allowed to say, "You have a dick, therefore you're a man"? It's insulting and offensive. If someone is anti-trans, I'd think things would go along far better if the discussions were more about trying to see the other side rather than just insulting each other. That's my point in being PPS mod. PPS discussions should be focused on seeing the other side, not just yelling out insults.

How in the fuck is that an insult?  It's like saying, "Your hair is yellowish, so you are blond."  This is exactly what I mean.  Anything is an insult on this site, if it helps trans people.  That your bar, as a moderator, for identifying insults is so low is chilling.

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13 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

If this were a football forum, and a baker came on and said, "I'm a baker, and I like football, and I want to talk about how those two things are connected." Then I'd say, "Cool. I'd like to hear a different POV of football." 

Sure and most people would. But if the baker continued to always make threads and conversations about baking then the football side of the community would get fed up fast.  People go to football forums to discuss football, people go to baking forums to discuss baking. Asexuals go to.. well, you know the rest.

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4 minutes ago, Evil said:

Sure and most people would. But if the baker continued to always make threads and conversations about baking then the football side of the community would get fed up fast.  People go to football forums to discuss football, people go to baking forums to discuss baking. Asexuals go to.. well, you know the rest.

You took the one point of my argument about why I'd still be cool with it, and completely ignored the rest of my argument about how bakign and football isn't apples-to-apples with trans and asexuality.

 

5 minutes ago, Joe Parrish said:

How in the fuck is that an insult?  It's like saying, "Your hair is yellowish, so you are blond."  This is exactly what I mean.  Anything is an insult on this site, if it helps trans people.  That your bar, as a moderator, for identifying insults is so low is chilling.

No one holds a strong identity based on their hair color. But people find a strong sense of self in gender. Again, that's not apples-to-apples. Hair color people don't (usually) care about. The gender at which they identify as people can take very personally. If you saw someone that was old, and they took offense to being called old, would you point at them and say, "You have wrinkly skin, therefore you're old!"? 

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butterflydreams
20 minutes ago, Joe Parrish said:

That AVEN refuses to see a difference between "I think having a penis makes you a man" and "I'm going to murder transgender people in restrooms" is the root of all this griping.  It's a blatantly dishonest and unethical way to administer the site.

How is an asexual trans person suppose to feel on a site that’s supposed to be for them too if people are allowed to spout things like “having a penis makes you a man”? You’re allowed to have that opinion, of course, but sharing it here isn’t fair to a large subset of the site’s members. Should they be made to feel unwelcome in a space that’s also for them?

 

How is that any better, or different, from me saying, “I think asexual people just haven’t been fucked right yet”? I wouldn’t say something like that around here, because it’s terribly disrespectul and invalidating.

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1 minute ago, FaerieFate said:

You took the one point of my argument about why I'd still be cool with it, and completely ignored the rest of my argument about how bakign and football isn't apples-to-apples with trans and asexuality.

 

When I picked the terms of the analogy it wasn't to be succinct but to try to highlight the issue as I am seeing it in a more clear manner for BD, which it did.

 

 

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Joe the Stoic
2 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

No one holds a strong identity based on their hair color.

This is patently untrue.  There are people who dye their hair well into old age because they are obsessed with their hair color.  If you try to tell them that they aren't a real blonde, they can even become angry.  I have met folks like this, and I bet you have to.  You just don't care, because you've arbitrarily decided that it's not important.

 

2 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

But people find a strong sense of self in gender. Again, that's not apples-to-apples. Hair color people don't (usually) care about. The gender at which they identify as people can take very personally. If you saw someone that was old, and they took offense to being called old, would you point at them and say, "You have wrinkly skin, therefore you're old!"? 

If someone is old, it's a fact.  You're telling me that someone can be punished for stating an indisputable fact.  If an octogenarian tries to declare that they are a teenager, it would not be insulting of me to remind them that they are, in fact, old.  If I call them old, because I have a problem with old people and am doing it in a way to bully them, that's not okay.  But if I simply make the conclusion that a well-aged person is old, what's insulting about that?  What's bigoted about that?  What's age-phobic about that?  Absolutely nothing.

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Maybe we can look at it from another angle, perhaps we should be talking about how to increase discussions and information on Asexuality across the boards instead of lowering gender/trans ones so that it no longer seems like a secondary subject to some of the community?

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1 minute ago, Evil said:

Maybe we can look at it from another angle, perhaps we should be talking about how to increase discussions and information on Asexuality across the boards instead of lowering gender/trans ones so that it no longer seems like a secondary subject to some of the community?

This I can get behind, because there are many topics on asexuality that I feel need to be had, but have been mostly overlooked. Stuff like, "How can you prove you are asexual?" Because a lot of new aces question themselves because they can't prove it or explain why they are asexual.

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butterflydreams
1 minute ago, Evil said:

Maybe we can look at it from another angle, perhaps we should be talking about how to increase discussions and information on Asexuality across the boards instead of lowering gender/trans ones so that it no longer seems like a secondary subject to some of the community?

I can wholeheartedly agree with this. :cake: 

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26 minutes ago, TheAP said:

Um, do you mean American football or soccer? I don't really watch either, but I can get into the World Cup sometimes. Not sure where you're going with this, though.

My point is, imagine you came to this community looking for other asexual people with which to communicate/commiserate/connect with. There is a lot of football talk. You don't really care about football except for in certain scenarios, so it isn't that you mind the discussion so much, but it strikes you after a while that maybe this is more of a football place than an asexual place. When you wonder about this outloud to the community, you're told that of course this is an ace place, your observations are unfounded, we can talk about football all we want... And if you push the point, people start insinuating you're kind of a bad person for not wanting to read about football all the time. 

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but given the existence of both this thread and a growing number of people leaving AVEN, instead of telling these people that they're wrong, we should be having a more productive conversation about it. I have no solutions - I don't even know what the problem is, yet, but the more we talk about it the more we can suss it out  - but pretending like there isn't one is unhelpful. 

 

25 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

However, if they’re being made to feel unwelcome because they invalidated someone’s trans identity or insisted on misgendering someone (which has happened), that’s something I’d hope you’d agree we can’t have here. Because that’s making trans aces feel unwelcome in what should also be their space.

 

The friction, I think, comes from when you have asexual people arguing that this is their forum and they should be allowed to hold any views they want. And some people, asexual or otherwise, have the view that trans people aren’t valid. So should the right to hold that view supersede the rights of trans asexuals who are on the boards as well? I don’t have an answer, but I think that’s what some people think is being argued. 

100% agree. I'm not trying to say non-trans ace people have any more claim to this space than any other ace person, and I definitely agree with you that trans people should be made to feel as welcome here. 

 

I also have no answers for the second point. I tend to believe people have the right to voice the opinions they want to voice, as long as they're prepared to deal with whatever fallout arises, and as long as they aren't actively harassing or threatening people, which is one of the reasons I'm struggling with this situation so much to begin with (because of course I also believe that trans people hold the same right, and I don't know how to resolve this when there is conflict; mostly I just wish we could all just accept each other for who we are and that's that, but that's not how the world works, I guess :lol:). I also vehemently don't want anyone to feel like they don't "belong" or that they shouldn't be on AVEN, because that's a crappy thing to do to people, and I don't want to make people feel that way. But I want AVEN to remain a viable community for ace people... I don't know, I struggle with it. :lol:

 

24 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

AVEN isn't a purely asexual forum. Yes, we like to focus on ace issues, but we're not going to force people to talk only about asexuality

Of course; this place would be a ghost town, otherwise. There are only so many ways to talk about being ace. :lol: It ought to be vibrant and to address things beyond the scope of asexuality from the lens of asexuality (if that makes sense). I think it's really refreshing seeing people talk about things other than how to score a girl, etc. etc. 

That said, it often seems like LGBT+ issues/perspective as a whole get "priority" (and I hope it isn't surprising that not all ace people consider themselves a member of the LGBT+ umbrella). This comes across in the ToS, the banned words list, the derision with which some topics are treated, a general dismissive attitude towards concerns like this one, the way in which some threads are handled and public communications from the mods.

 

This thread remains a good example, I think. People are trying to voice a concern and they're being told it isn't a real concern. This is the second time in my short time here that people are trying to raise similar concerns and are largely being told their concerns are unfounded - including by members of the moderator team. That is also concerning, to me. 

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Joe the Stoic
15 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

How is an asexual trans person suppose to feel on a site that’s supposed to be for them too if people are allowed to spout things like “having a penis makes you a man”? You’re allowed to have that opinion, of course, but sharing it here isn’t fair to a large subset of the site’s members. Should they be made to feel unwelcome in a space that’s also for them?

It's not fair?  How?  It's a fucking opinion.  It's a statement of you perceive the world.  It's not an order.  It's not a command.  It obliges people to nothing.

 

15 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

How is that any better, or different, from me saying, “I think asexual people just haven’t been fucked right yet”? I wouldn’t say something like that around here, because it’s terribly disrespectul and invalidating.

It's different in many ways, but let's ignore that.  I have been told, to my face, that I'm only asexual because I'm a virgin, and nothing happened to me.  It didn't hurt.  It was just words, and moreover, I could understand why they might feel that way and that yelling at them would not do anything to enlighten them.

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2 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

Of course; this place would be a ghost town, otherwise. There are only so many ways to talk about being ace. :lol: It ought to be vibrant and to address things beyond the scope of asexuality from the lens of asexuality (if that makes sense). I think it's really refreshing seeing people talk about things other than how to score a girl, etc. etc. 

That said, it often seems like LGBT+ issues/perspective as a whole get "priority" (and I hope it isn't surprising that not all ace people consider themselves a member of the LGBT+ umbrella). This comes across in the ToS, the banned words list, the derision with which some topics are treated, a general dismissive attitude towards concerns like this one, the way in which some threads are handled and public communications from the mods.

 

This thread remains a good example, I think. People are trying to voice a concern and they're being told it isn't a real concern. This is the second time in my short time here that people are trying to raise similar concerns and are largely being told their concerns are unfounded - including by members of the moderator team. That is also concerning, to me. 

As a member of the mod team that has on many occasions been the voice of concern, I'd like to point out that I do listen to all concerns. Hence why I'm here. I've even had some people change my mind and I ended up changing my opinion to vouch for them. I just feel like saying, "We want less trans discussions on here." completely invalidates the intersectionality of asexuality.

 

Similarly, I can talk about how being a female effects my asexual experiences compared to a male's if I felt that passionate about it. Granted, I don't really identify as a gender, so it doesn't bother me THAT much, but if a female comes out people say, "Well, all girls are like that." Whereas if a male comes out he's made to feel like less of a man because all men should be "thinking about sex 24/7" and "banging lots of chicks" according to society.

 

Like I said, I've been on the end of, "This is my concern." And at the time, I felt ignored. It's why I became a mod again. Because I want to be a voice for those people. I just think that intersectionality SHOULD be discussed on AVEN. If you wanted to say asexual issues aren't discussed enough, I'd completely agree. If you think trans issues are beign discussed too much, I'd disagree. Especially because a lot of asexuals consider themselves part of the LGBT simply because they are asexual.

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12 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

My point is, imagine you came to this community looking for other asexual people with which to communicate/commiserate/connect with. There is a lot of football talk. You don't really care about football except for in certain scenarios, so it isn't that you mind the discussion so much, but it strikes you after a while that maybe this is more of a football place than an asexual place. When you wonder about this outloud to the community, you're told that of course this is an ace place, your observations are unfounded, we can talk about football all we want... And if you push the point, people start insinuating you're kind of a bad person for not wanting to read about football all the time. 

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but given the existence of both this thread and a growing number of people leaving AVEN, instead of telling these people that they're wrong, we should be having a more productive conversation about it. I have no solutions - I don't even know what the problem is, yet, but the more we talk about it the more we can suss it out  - but pretending like there isn't one is unhelpful. 

I still don't understand, though. Only a minority of the topics in PPS and Hotbox are gender-related. There aren't many topics about gender in the asexuality forums. And then there's JFF, Arcade, Off-A, etc., where gender isn't discussed very much at all. It's not fair to say gender has completely taken over the site.

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butterflydreams
12 minutes ago, Joe Parrish said:

It's not fair?  How?  It's a fucking opinion.  It's a statement of you perceive the world.  It's not an order.  It's not a command.  It obliges people to nothing.

Because stated here it’s totally invalidating to a non-trivial subset of members. If you want to spout that opinion out in the world, go ahead, nobody can stop you. But here, I’d hope that we’d want to respect all members, and their identities, to the greatest degree possible. But you know, I don’t even really care. If you want to say that having a penis makes you a man, just say it. And I’d fight for the mods to leave it. But then I expect you to come to my defense when I get flagged for saying things like asexuals just haven’t been fucked right. Would that be fair? And while you may have had someone say something like that to your face, that’s out in the real world. Here, I’d hope that we would try to be more respectful of each other and our identities. Which I’m certainly happy to do. 

 

15 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

100% agree. I'm not trying to say non-trans ace people have any more claim to this space than any other ace person, and I definitely agree with you that trans people should be made to feel as welcome here. 

 

I also have no answers for the second point. I tend to believe people have the right to voice the opinions they want to voice, as long as they're prepared to deal with whatever fallout arises, and as long as they aren't actively harassing or threatening people, which is one of the reasons I'm struggling with this situation so much to begin with (because of course I also believe that trans people hold the same right, and I don't know how to resolve this when there is conflict; mostly I just wish we could all just accept each other for who we are and that's that, but that's not how the world works, I guess :lol:). I also vehemently don't want anyone to feel like they don't "belong" or that they shouldn't be on AVEN, because that's a crappy thing to do to people, and I don't want to make people feel that way. But I want AVEN to remain a viable community for ace people... I don't know, I struggle with it. :lol:

I guess I’ll just say this. It sucks to constantly hear things like “having a penis makes you a man” just because people want to spout that opinion. AVEN should want and strive to be better than that for its trans members. 

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7 minutes ago, TheAP said:

I still don't understand, though. Only a minority of the topics in PPS and Hotbox are gender-related. There aren't many topics about gender in the asexuality forums. And then there's JFF, Arcade, Off-A, etc., where gender isn't discussed very much at all. It's not fair to say gender has completely taken over the site.

Though I would like more Science in PPS :P It's why I liked PPS so much when I joined AVEN. I'm a science nerd :P

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34 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

My point is, imagine you came to this community looking for other asexual people with which to communicate/commiserate/connect with. There is a lot of football talk. You don't really care about football except for in certain scenarios, so it isn't that you mind the discussion so much, but it strikes you after a while that maybe this is more of a football place than an asexual place. When you wonder about this outloud to the community, you're told that of course this is an ace place, your observations are unfounded, we can talk about football all we want... And if you push the point, people start insinuating you're kind of a bad person for not wanting to read about football all the time. 

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but given the existence of both this thread and a growing number of people leaving AVEN, instead of telling these people that they're wrong, we should be having a more productive conversation about it. I have no solutions - I don't even know what the problem is, yet, but the more we talk about it the more we can suss it out  - but pretending like there isn't one is unhelpful. 

 

100% agree. I'm not trying to say non-trans ace people have any more claim to this space than any other ace person, and I definitely agree with you that trans people should be made to feel as welcome here. 

 

I also have no answers for the second point. I tend to believe people have the right to voice the opinions they want to voice, as long as they're prepared to deal with whatever fallout arises, and as long as they aren't actively harassing or threatening people, which is one of the reasons I'm struggling with this situation so much to begin with (because of course I also believe that trans people hold the same right, and I don't know how to resolve this when there is conflict; mostly I just wish we could all just accept each other for who we are and that's that, but that's not how the world works, I guess :lol:). I also vehemently don't want anyone to feel like they don't "belong" or that they shouldn't be on AVEN, because that's a crappy thing to do to people, and I don't want to make people feel that way. But I want AVEN to remain a viable community for ace people... I don't know, I struggle with it. :lol:

 

Of course; this place would be a ghost town, otherwise. There are only so many ways to talk about being ace. :lol: It ought to be vibrant and to address things beyond the scope of asexuality from the lens of asexuality (if that makes sense). I think it's really refreshing seeing people talk about things other than how to score a girl, etc. etc. 

That said, it often seems like LGBT+ issues/perspective as a whole get "priority" (and I hope it isn't surprising that not all ace people consider themselves a member of the LGBT+ umbrella). This comes across in the ToS, the banned words list, the derision with which some topics are treated, a general dismissive attitude towards concerns like this one, the way in which some threads are handled and public communications from the mods.

 

This thread remains a good example, I think. People are trying to voice a concern and they're being told it isn't a real concern. This is the second time in my short time here that people are trying to raise similar concerns and are largely being told their concerns are unfounded - including by members of the moderator team. That is also concerning, to me. 

These concerns have been being raised for years now but generally all that changes is sometimes (depending whose on the admod team I guess?) There'll be a lot more shut-down of convos like this and they'll come down hard on gender-related offenses, sometimes that aren't even relevant to the site (like when I misgendered a public figure who I think is a massive liar, their story about being trans is constantly changing, they encourage people to emotionally manipulate people into sex, and they're not a member of AVEN.. and I got banned for being mean about them lol). At the moment, things are a bit calmer in that at least we can have this convo.

 

I think everyone on AVEN has the right to a modicum of respect from other members, regardless of whether they're trans or anything else. So no being directly mean to someone regardless of how shitty their opinion is, no direct harassment, no misgendering etc. Attack the issue, not the person.

 

However people should also be free to have opinions, like some people think biological sex isn't a thing, and some think you're a man if you're born with a penis and a woman if you're born with a vagina and that's all there is to it, some think Riley Denis is a man who enjoys emotionally manipulating lesbian women into having sex with h** by claiming they're transphobic if they don't want Riley's penis, etc etc. I think people should be allowed to hold and discuss any of these topics, or anything else that may be heated or triggering related to gender, in the Hot Box which is designed for such discussions. Transpeople should of course though have Safe Space (which I think the Gender Discussion forum is?) where they can talk about being trans without anyone coming in and harassing them or trying to impose more conservative views or anything like that on them.

 

I personally disagree with misgendering trans members of AVEN, or intentionally using the wrong pronouns for someone on AVEN even if they're not trans but want to be called 'they' or whatever, just because it's a basic modicum of respect for other members and it's not hard to type 'she' or 'they' or whatever, even if you personally think they're just confused about gender (like when someone says they have boobs, love makeup and enjoy wearing pretty dresses, but they're non binary because they love to play video games as well.. like seriously?? lol).

 

I think anything more extreme than that, like forcefully imposing SJW views by saying people aren't allowed to discuss the idea that your biological sex is your gender, and they're not allowed to be mean about Riley Denis (or Blaire White!), etc etc, is taking it way too far. As long as those more controversial opinions/discussions are kept in the Hot Box I don't think they should be silenced or policed.

 

  

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14 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

I just feel like saying, "We want less trans discussions on here." completely invalidates the intersectionality of asexuality.

But nobody is saying this. 

 

15 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

I just think that intersectionality SHOULD be discussed on AVEN.

I agree with you. Fae, I have specifically said on more than one occasion that the intersectional perspective is crucial. Short of putting it in neon lights I could not make it more obvious that I agree with you on this point. Nobody has said that trans people or trans discussions should not be allowed. Not a single person.

 

I don't know why this is all you're focusing on, and it's making me frustrated because all of the other points that I've made have been largely ignored. 

 

17 minutes ago, FaerieFate said:

Especially because a lot of asexuals consider themselves part of the LGBT simply because they are asexual

A lot, but not all, and those that don't deserve a voice. 

 

6 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

I guess I’ll just say this. It sucks to constantly hear things like “having a penis makes you a man” just because people want to spout that opinion. AVEN should want and strive to be better than that for its trans members. 

I can definitely understand this. 

 

14 minutes ago, TheAP said:

It's not fair to say gender has completely taken over the site.

I don't know that anyone has said that it's completely taken over, just that the emphasis appears to be on trans and gender discussion first, with asexuality second. 

 

We've agreed that maybe we could focus back on asexuality-related topics, which I think is all anyone really wants.

 

I feel like my voice isn't being heard and that is frustrating to me. 

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I sometimes think that, ironically, there wouldn't be so much discussion about gender if people didn't start topics about how AVEN is too focused on gender. (Not criticizing the OP specifically, just saying that these kinds of topics do provoke these kinds of roundabout discussions.)

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3 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

I feel like my voice isn't being heard and that is frustrating to me. 

The concern, as I see it, is the fact that AVEN feels more like it's for trans people than for asexuals. And people want to be allowed to say, "You have a dick, therefore you're a guy." Without consequence. If I'm wrong as to your belief, them please, feel free to correct me. This debate is going way too fast for me to accurately follow 10 different opinions. But that's just a large majority of what I've seen on this thread. And I'm stating mods make the decisions they do and why trans people should be allowed to state their piece on AVEN. Because honestly, I don't think there was a lot of trans discussions until recently with three threads made in PPS within the past week. But that's just me.

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