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AVEN's Prioritization of Gender Issues


Pramana

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1 hour ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

Cis-gender people can be  horrible  and not get their gender attacked for it. It is transphobic and discrimination to target the gender of a trans person because you don't like them, it is harmful to all trans people, not just the one who happens to be a jerk.

 

30 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

Misgendering is a different kind of attack that cis-people do not deal with.

 

26 minutes ago, Evil said:

Well cool, thanks for invalidating me

 

18 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

You're welcome.

This. 

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9 minutes ago, Evil said:

 

 

 

This. 

I don't really get your point. Regardless, intentionally misgendering cis-people is certainly not common and doesn't have the same kind of impact as intentionally misgendering trans people.

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59 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

Would you care to elaborate on this? I think I have an idea of what you're talking about, but I don't want to assume and put words in your mouth.

I'm not trying to call anybody out, so I'm not going to provide any specific examples, but there will be (usually nonaggressive, but flippant) statements made where if the word "cis" was replaced by a word describing any other minority group (black, gay, trans, etc.), the person doing the posting would get a nudge or at least some telling-off by responders. I understand the therapeutic value of a good bitching session and I don't assume that these are inherent values held by the people doing the posting like this (I assume it's borne more from a place of frustration, even if this makes me a bit naive...), but given that the ace community encompasses both cis and trans people, and the acceptance for saying or implying certain things is asymmetrical, I do worry a little. 

 

(Ehm, a good example may have just occurred right in this thread, actually.)

 

Quote

Just a thought about this, from my own experience...a lot of those other avenues assume a normal degree of sexuality and it can be really alienating to be involved in that when you're asexual, or even just not a very sexual person. I like the more neutral tone of things here.

 

I agree. I honestly feel bad sometimes participating in asexual-focused discussions, because my gender has so much to do with it. For other people, that part won't be an issue. I can't remove the influence my gender has on things though. 

Yeah, I can see why that would be a difficult thing. There are a lot of unique challenges faced by the ace/grey community and by the trans community, and even more unique challenges faced by the trans ace/grey intersectional community, I can only imagine. Places like AVEN are really, really important to provide a sense of community and solidarity and general acceptance, and it's also important that people have a place to vent frustrations (it really is a healthy thing to do, generally :lol:), it just worries me when the frustrations being vented have the potential to make others in the community feel unwelcome - especially if it's asexual people within the ace community who are made to feel unwelcome.

 

Your perspective is important and valid and worth voicing. It's absolutely not my goal to say or hint or otherwise insinuate that trans people have no voice here, because that's a) completely inaccurate, b) a totally dick move and c) ridiculously hypocritical for me, an allosexual person, to say in an asexuality community. Please don't stop sharing your perspective. ❤

 

26 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

And as I recall, your first post there was pretty warmly received and responded to, so I don't quite get the objection and theory of over-prioritizing trans issues.

I'm not objecting, I'm just observing. It was received warmly (I was quite touched by that), and it isn't my goal to villianize the gender discussion forum by any means - I think it's an important forum, and I've learned a lot from lurking through the threads there.

 

I fall under the LGBT+ umbrella, and I've witnessed radicalized segments of the trans activist community viciously (verbally, thank goodness) attack other members under the same umbrella because they're cis. I know that those are outliers they in no way represent the majority of the trans population, and I don't expect it to happen here on AVEN - but I also can't help but worry about it a tiny bit, that's all. :lol:

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butterflydreams
13 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I don't really get your point. Regardless, intentionally misgendering cis-people is certainly not common and doesn't have the same kind of impact as intentionally misgendering trans people.

Actually, it does happen, and to a close friend of mine. He’s gotten used to it, but it really did negatively affect him at one time. Please don’t assume it never happens to cis people, or that it doesn’t matter when it does.

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Just now, Sapphire Delvai said:

I don't really get your point. Regardless, intentionally misgendering cis-people is certainly not common and doesn't have the same kind of impact as intentionally misgendering trans people.

 

It may not be as common but it does happen and can be just as damaging. 

 

My point is that cis people are also attacked for their gender/sex, they are also discriminated against and it is routinely ignored and dismissed.

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2 hours ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

Cis-gender people can be  horrible  and not get their gender attacked for it. It is transphobic and discrimination to target the gender of a trans person because you don't like them, it is harmful to all trans people, not just the one who happens to be a jerk.

Nice way to completely miss the point of what I was saying.

 

If someone is using a pronoun as a sexual weapon against other people, then no, they deserve no respect.  It's fine if you'd happily call someone a 'she' to affirm their opinion that all lesbian women should just bend over to this person and let them stick their dick inside any woman they want, but believe me, I'm not down with that kind of emotional sexual manipulation. I personally find it disgusting that any trans person would accept this person because people like that are one of the reasons why the trans community is viewed so negatively these days, but meh, whatever. You can support that kind of thing all you like, I'm not down for it though. It's like if a grown male pedophile said 'I'm an 8 year old girl so let me get changed in the kids changing room with the other little girls after gym class or you're a transphobic bigot' ..that person is using an identity (which may not be their true identity at all) as manipulative weapon for sexual gain. I will never support that.

 

....and 'cis' people have their gender attacked all the time as @Evil has been trying to point out, it's often just in a slightly different way than what trans people experience. Men are laughed at and called a girl if their voice is too high, they're 'not manly enough' if they won't do certain activities or act in a certain way, women are called 'she-men' and 'hairy beasts' etc if they won't shave or look too masculine, and are generally instantly assumed to be a lesbian if they have short hair, don't wear makeup, and rather work on cars instead of getting their nails done (just as men are instantly assumed to be gay for having feminine tastes or preferring more feminine activities). Most people who do not 'conform' 100% to one gender stereotype or another will experience verbal attacks, insults, and harassment as a result of that. It's very common.

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I'm doing research for an article I'm writing and literally just came upon this statement, only minutes after making my last comment here:

 

''He observes that the men should be able to enact vigilante style justice, and implies that they are lesser men when they cannot.''

 

'Cis' men experience these kind of gender-targeted insults very commonly if they don't conform to specific stereotypically masculine behaviors. 

 

(Side-note. if anyone is wondering, I hate the term 'cis', hence why I write it the way I do. It implies that anyone who isn't trans is 100% comfortable with and accepting of their gender just the way it is, and it's really not like that for a lot of people. Many suffer all kinds of emotional and physical consequences as a direct result of characteristics of their gender, and as a result often wish they could have been born differently. No this isn't gender dysphoria and doesn't make someone trans, but the term 'cis' makes it seem like these sorts of issues don't exist within anyone who isn't trans. I also find it insulting that someone should have to apply a 'special term' to their gender just to identify themselves as 'not trans', especially given the types of gender-related issues many 'cis' people do experience. But yeah, that's why I write the term 'cis' the way that I do. It's one of those words I truly think the world could do without.)

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16 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

Actually, it does happen, and to a close friend of mine. He’s gotten used to it, but it really did negatively affect him at one time. Please don’t assume it never happens to cis people, or that it doesn’t matter when it does.

The point is that it's different, not as common, the reasoning behind it isn't the same, and even if it could be harmful to cis-people, it's a lot more so to trans people.

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22 minutes ago, Evil said:

It may not be as common but it does happen and can be just as damaging. 

 

My point is that cis people are also attacked for their gender/sex, they are also discriminated against and it is routinely ignored and dismissed.

I got bullied long before I transitioned, including for being effeminate and androgynous, I'm very aware of the kind of abuse people who are perceived as such suffer regardless of whether they turn out to be cis or not.

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butterflydreams
2 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

The point is that it's different, not as common, the reasoning behind it isn't the same, and even if it could be harmful to cis-people, it's a lot more so to trans people.

I’m sorry, but that is an incredibly hurtful thing to say. It’s no different, and it’s a lot more common than you think. Only when it happens to cis people, they have little recourse because there’s no community backing them up. So it’s almost worse. When I get down about being misgendered my friend is always quick to remind me how it happens even to cis people. And he uses his own experiences to help me feel better about it. And you know what? I like hearing that, because it makes me feel less different. It makes me think, hey, I’m not so different, this happens to cis people too. That’s invaluable. 

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21 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Nice way to completely miss the point of what I was saying.

 

If someone is using a pronoun as a sexual weapon against other people, then no, they deserve no respect.  It's fine if you'd happily call someone a 'she' to affirm their opinion that all lesbian women should just bend over to this person and let them stick their dick inside any woman they want, but believe me, I'm not down with that kind of emotional sexual manipulation. I personally find it disgusting that any trans person would accept this person because people like that are one of the reasons why the trans community is viewed so negatively these days, but meh, whatever. You can support that kind of thing all you like, I'm not down for it though. It's like if a grown male pedophile said 'I'm an 8 year old girl so let me get changed in the kids changing room with the other little girls after gym class or you're a transphobic bigot' ..that person is using an identity (which may not be their true identity at all) as manipulative weapon for sexual gain. I will never support that.

 

....and 'cis' people have their gender attacked all the time as @Evil has been trying to point out, it's often just in a slightly different way than what trans people experience. Men are laughed at and called a girl if their voice is too high, they're 'not manly enough' if they won't do certain activities or act in a certain way, women are called 'she-men' and 'hairy beasts' etc if they won't shave or look too masculine, and are generally instantly assumed to be a lesbian if they have short hair, don't wear makeup, and rather work on cars instead of getting their nails done (just as men are instantly assumed to be gay for having feminine tastes or preferring more feminine activities). Most people who do not 'conform' 100% to one gender stereotype or another will experience verbal attacks, insults, and harassment as a result of that. It's very common.

I have no idea about who this person you're talking about is and haven't seen those kind of actions.

 

For the second part I'm well aware of those kind of abuses, I've experienced them (I just turned out to actually be a girl)

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3 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I got bullied long before I transitioned, including for being effeminate and androgynous, I'm very aware of the kind of abuse people who are perceived as such suffer regardless of whether they turn out to be cis or not.

Hello me.

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3 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I got bullied long before I transitioned, including for being effeminate and androgynous, I'm very aware of the kind of abuse people who are perceived as such suffer regardless of whether they turn out to be cis or not.

And yet still you invalidated what I had to say and treated it as a joke.

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2 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

I’m sorry, but that is an incredibly hurtful thing to say. It’s no different, and it’s a lot more common than you think. Only when it happens to cis people, they have little recourse because there’s no community backing them up. So it’s almost worse. When I get down about being misgendered my friend is always quick to remind me how it happens even to cis people. And he uses his own experiences to help me feel better about it. And you know what? I like hearing that, because it makes me feel less different. It makes me think, hey, I’m not so different, this happens to cis people too. That’s invaluable. 

I'm sorry but it is different and like I said, I know.

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Just now, Evil said:

And yet still you invalidated what I had to say and treated it as a joke.

Because it came across as a comment with no other point than just trying to shoot down my point about misgendering of trans people.

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butterflydreams
2 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I'm sorry but it is different and like I said, I know.

And I don’t? My experiences and my friend’s don’t matter? You know I’m trans, right? Saying that it’s different and somehow “worse” for trans people is so invalidating of the experiences of cis people. The same thing you ask that they don’t do to you. And again, what recourse do they have? You get to sit there and call it transphobic when people misgender you, and people will back you up because generally speaking, people understand that transphobia is undesirable. And there’s a whole trans community behind you to back you up and validate you. Again I ask, what recourse to cis people have? What recourse did my friend have? With his long hair and feminine name? He always tells me it’s no different. And it really isn’t. It hurts just as much. 

 

Saying, “oh well, trans people just have it worse” isn’t going to garner any sympathy for trans people or our cause. Realizing how similar we are to cis people, and the struggles we share creates solidarity, shared understanding and bridges helping us to be included and accepted. Which should be what we all want.

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\

18 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I'm sorry but it is different and like I said, I know.

How so? As far as I know when intentionally misgendering someone it's to invalidate and ridicule. That wouldn't change whether a person is cis, trans, or something else... Are there bigger consequences? 

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butterflydreams
9 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

Good job you all of completely missing the point, which was that it's shit to misgender a trans person just because you dislike them as an individual.

 

For fuck's sake Aven.

Nobody missed anything. We get that it’s shit to misgender trans people, no one argued against that. People merely asserted that the same thing happens to cis people, at not insignificant rates. This is a good thing to realize. Because it means we have something in common. It means we can create cis allies because “hey cis person, you know how shitty it feels to get misgendered? Trans people feel the same way!” Boom. Now you have a cis person who’s much more sympathetic to trans people because they can relate directly to the experience. But ONLY IF we don’t shut them down and dismiss them by saying their experience doesn’t matter, or isn’t as bad.

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1 minute ago, butterflydreams said:

And I don’t? My experiences and my friend’s don’t matter? You know I’m trans, right? Saying that it’s different and somehow “worse” for trans people is so invalidating of the experiences of cis people. The same thing you ask that they don’t do to you. And again, what recourse do they have? You get to sit there and call it transphobic when people misgender you, and people will back you up because generally speaking, people understand that transphobia is undesirable. And there’s a whole trans community behind you to back you up and validate you. Again I ask, what recourse to cis people have? What recourse did my friend have? With his long hair and feminine name? He always tells me it’s no different. And it really isn’t. It hurts just as much. 

 

Saying, “oh well, trans people just have it worse” isn’t going to garner any sympathy for trans people or our cause. Realizing how similar we are to cis people, and the struggles we share creates solidarity, shared understanding and bridges helping us to be included and accepted. Which should be what we all want.

I call it different because it fucking is, that isn't invalidation just a fact. I'm not part of a trans community, my opinions are mine alone. 

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butterflydreams
1 minute ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

I call it different because it fucking is, that isn't invalidation just a fact. I'm not part of a trans community, my opinions are mine alone. 

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then. I’ve made my point. 

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1 minute ago, Sapphire Delvai said:

PLEASE JUST FUCKING BACK OFF NOW I'M NOT HERE TO BE ATTACKED BY FOUR OR MORE PEOPLE AT ONCE OKAY

There is no attack. It is a conversation. 

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 alls i asked was a question. who's attacking? if you openly say something debatable people will challenge it....is that not how a forum works?

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3 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

 And yes, like in the workplace I do obviously think you should respect the pronoun preference of actual AVEN members, I'm just saying, if someone isn't a member of AVEN they should be fair game in the same way Donald Trump is.

 

If you're putting the rights of sexual transfolk who are not members of AVEN over the rights of asexual 'cis'folk who *are* members of AVEN, then that's a case where an asexuality site is putting trans issues before asexuality issues.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by members/not members.  Do you mean that if someone isn't a member and posts on AVEN, they should be fair game?  Or do you mean that someone who doesn't post on AVEN but is quoted by someone on AVEN is fair game?  

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I don't see how some attention towards gender issues is a bad thing for AVEN any way. All it means is theres some considerable overlap between the trans and ace world... Further more it's been contained to the gender forum for the most part so it's not like it's all over the site...

If anything I hope having such a strong connection with the trans community will enable non-trans people to approach gender with more nuance just as the AVEN has helped non-ace people approach attraction with more nuance.

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2 minutes ago, Sally said:
5 minutes ago, Sally said:

 Ficto said: And yes, like in the workplace I do obviously think you should respect the pronoun preference of actual AVEN members, I'm just saying, if someone isn't a member of AVEN they should be fair game in the same way Donald Trump is.

 

If you're putting the rights of sexual transfolk who are not members of AVEN over the rights of asexual 'cis'folk who *are* members of AVEN, then that's a case where an asexuality site is putting trans issues before asexuality issues.

 


I'm not sure what you mean by members/not members.  Do you mean that if someone isn't a member and posts on AVEN, they should be fair game?  Or do you mean that someone who doesn't post on AVEN but is quoted by someone on AVEN is fair game?  

No I meant someone who is not a member of AVEN and never has been.

 

I made some negative comments about a YouTuber who claims that lesbian women are transphobic if they don't want to have sex with them (this YouTuber) because the YouTuber has a penis.. This YouTuber had also made claims in the past that they don't have gender dysphoria and love having a penis etc.. So I made statements about refusing to accept this particular person's pronoun 'preferences' because they seem to ONLY be using those pronouns as a weapon of sexual manipulation against women. I also made it very clear I was only referring to this person specifically and not any member of AVEN who ID's as trans. I got a 6 month active warn, banned from AVEN for two weeks, and banned from the gender discussion forum (which I don't use anyway, and these comments were NOT made in that forum) for 3 months. This person is a public figure who has millions of followers, and they make a lot of very controversial statements. If Donald Trump is fair game, why shouldn't any other public figure be fair game?

 

So the point was that my situation could be construed as an example of 'gender issues' being considered more important than asexuality, because at the time I was still identifying as asexual on an asexual website. If this was an isolated case I wouldn't have such an issue, but it seems to happen a fair bit where asexual members (of an asexual site) are having disciplinary action taken against them for certain opinions about gender that were 1) voiced outside of the gender discussion (AKA trans safe space) forum, and were not aimed at any specific AVEN member - more a general comment like 'I believe there are only two sexes biologically, if someone has a penis then they're a man to me' (THAT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE). This is still a valid scientific argument even if one strongly disagrees with it. If they intentionally misgender AVEN members that should be viewed as harassment of course (same with any other intentionally insulting language) but there is a difference between being mean to a specific member and voicing a general opinion, or being mean about someone who has never commented on (or probably never even heard of) AVEN.

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butterflydreams
1 minute ago, Ace Of Bass said:

If anything I hope having such a strong connection with the trans community will enable non-trans people to approach gender with more nuance

Exactly!

 

44 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

It implies that anyone who isn't trans is 100% comfortable with and accepting of their gender just the way it is

Really? Only on AVEN or tumblr in my experience. Much like most things in the world, it's a bell curve. I always interpreted it as "comfortable enough" and figured most reasonable people did as well. That's how I treat being trans anyway, that I'm discomfortable with my birth gender to a significant enough degree that transition makes sense. Acting like being cis means you're 100% comfortable makes virtually no one cis. So you get all kinds of demi things that while they are real, are largely meaningless micro-constructs describing experiences of average people. Oops, now I've done it.

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butterflydreams
3 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

If this was an isolated case I wouldn't have such an issue, but it seems to happen a fair bit where asexual members (of an asexual site) are having disciplinary action taken against them for certain opinions about gender that were 1) voiced outside of the gender discussion (AKA trans safe space) forum, and were not aimed at any specific AVEN member

The fact that they're asexual members of an asexual site isn't germane to the situation. I believe that opinions on gender should be allowed everywhere. Gender discussions used to be like that. I don't like the insinuation that trans people are helpless little meltable snowflakes. That couldn't be further from the truth. I think it's good to be challenged, and to challenge back. Otherwise how is anyone going to learn anything.

 

That said, there's a fine line between challenging and just being a dick. I'd like to think we're all big boys and girls here, but I know that's not always the case. Saying something like "if someone has a penis, they're a man to me" is at best an uninformed opinion. If someone stated that, I'd expect they'd be open to challenge, as they should be. But just saying that and walking away, or ignoring all contrary evidence is being a dick.

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1 minute ago, butterflydreams said:

Really? Only on AVEN or tumblr in my experience. Much like most things in the world, it's a bell curve. I always interpreted it as "comfortable enough" and figured most reasonable people did as well. That's how I treat being trans anyway, that I'm discomfortable with my birth gender to a significant enough degree that transition makes sense. Acting like being cis means you're 100% comfortable makes virtually no one cis. So you get all kinds of demi things that while they are real, are largely meaningless micro-constructs describing experiences of average people. Oops, now I've done it.

That's kind of the issue, I think. Many people (teens) these days who start identifying as trans are actually experiencing very normal, er, gender issues, that affect the vast majority of 'cis' people, especially as they're developing physically, emotionally, mentally, and hormonally (which doesn't fully sop until the early 20s and even then, some of those processes continue). For example, I was watching a trans debate a while ago where a woman with very long blonde hair and a lot of makeup was saying she's trans because she likes to be pretty, but also likes riding a motorbike, playing videogames, and watching twink porn. She was actively speaking out about trans issues like she was some authority on the matter, when clearly she is just someone confused about what it means to be a normal human being. She also is fine with the 'she' pronoun so I'm NOT misgendering her @ mods. Anyway, you see this sort of thing so commonly in the 'vocal' part of the trans community these days (among younger teens I mean) that it's actually spawned this whole 'transtrender' meme that is now having a very negative impact on the trans community as a whole. These people (as a direct result of being confused about what 'cis' implies) are causing many people to discredit the authenticity of many actual trans people (children and adults) who suffer deeply with gender dysphoria etc. They're actually pretty few and far between, but they're also some of the most vocal (ie Riley Dennis, Milo Stewart and their crowd) in their views and opinions about what 'cis' is, that their voices are some of the main 'trans' voices being heard by the general population.

 

Regarding the 'cis' thing.. I am not trans, although I had gender dysphoria to the extent of being suicidal and actively self-harming growing up, and I'm still uncomfortable with feminine pronouns being directed at me, and it would be a lot easier NOT to be this gender (though it also feels that no other gender would be easier) but I'm not trans. Therefore even the implication that being 'comfortable enough' being something someone like me experiences is still quite hurtful and frustrating. Obviously not all 'cis' people experience gender issues to the extent that I have, but some do... despite not being trans. So yeah 'cis' in general is just a term that I hate and think should be abolished personally.  I'm not meaning to offend you or anything like that though, I really like you and respect your opinions, I just have very strong opinions about the term 'cis' as a result of the things that I have experienced in relation to my own gender despite not being trans. :cake:

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