butterflydreams Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I feel like being trans and/or transitioning gives us unique insights into things and I'm wondering what people might have to share regarding things they've learned. One thing I've learned is guys will shake a woman's hand differently than they shake a guy's hand. Another thing I've learned is that beauty culture is a bitch. I have others, but I'm curious what other people have learned or noticed. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, butterflydreams said: Another thing I've learned is that beauty culture is a bitch. I'm curious as to what this means Link to post Share on other sites
butterflydreams Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Homer said: I'm curious as to what this means I mean it as I feel a lot of pressure to be attractive in a very conventional way. I feel pressure to know how to do makeup, and do it well. And it's so easy to feel inferior to other women, especially other trans women, who are more attractive than me. Does that make sense? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, butterflydreams said: I mean it as I feel a lot of pressure to be attractive in a very conventional way. I feel pressure to know how to do makeup, and do it well. And it's so easy to feel inferior to other women, especially other trans women, who are more attractive than me. Does that make sense? I will never master the art of makeup and I gave up trying. But, the people that do it well have my respect. It really is an art form! Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewT Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, butterflydreams said: I mean it as I feel a lot of pressure to be attractive in a very conventional way. I feel pressure to know how to do makeup, and do it well. And it's so easy to feel inferior to other women, especially other trans women, who are more attractive than me. Does that make sense? Not been trans I can't possible understand everything you go through; but, one of my best friends is having to deal with a lot that he shouldn't have to... it's 2018 not 1918 Link to post Share on other sites
butterflydreams Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Serran said: But, the people that do it well have my respect. It really is an art form! Same! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 That transitioning didn't make me socially normal Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 30 minutes ago, butterflydreams said: Does that make sense? It does from a logical POV... I just haven't managed to figure out where this "societal pressure" comes from. What makes you feel pressure to know how to do makeup? Did someone tell you that you "should" do this or that? (I'm not trying to argue, it's just something I never got my head around and it's something that people complain about a lot) I can totally see how being trans offers a unique perspective on a LOT of things. I despise this "you are what you wear" attitude some people have, but it seems to exist and I think that it's especially present in trans folks' lives. From an outsider's perspective, the handshake thing makes sense... most women would have a rather soft handshake, so it'd be rude (and sometimes dangerous) to pull off your fiercest carpenter's handshake when the other person's hand seems to be rather fragile in comparison. Speaking of which - you said that you noticed a difference, but what do you actually think of it? Are you okay with it? Does it seem silly? Is it some kind of "gotcha" feeling when you realize that female-bodied people are being treated differently than male ones? Could it even be a sign of success at passing (as in, a firm handshake indicating that one doesn't pass that well?) Is it just *shrug*? OMG so many silly questions 7 minutes ago, Sapphire Delvai said: That transitioning didn't make me socially normal What do you feel is missing? (Again, this question is related to my complete failure in making sense of societal influence) Link to post Share on other sites
butterflydreams Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Homer said: It does from a logical POV... I just haven't managed to figure out where this "societal pressure" comes from. What makes you feel pressure to know how to do makeup? Did someone tell you that you "should" do this or that? (I'm not trying to argue, it's just something I never got my head around and it's something that people complain about a lot) I don't know where the social pressure comes from either. It probably comes from within myself honestly, but all I know is that it's real, and it really surprised me how susceptible to it I was. 9 minutes ago, Homer said: Speaking of which - you said that you noticed a difference, but what do you actually think of it? Are you okay with it? Does it seem silly? I'm fine with it. No more getting my hand crushed. It seems silly to me, but it also seems to be a subconscious thing, so I don't attribute any malice to it. It just kind of...is. 11 minutes ago, Homer said: Is it some kind of "gotcha" feeling when you realize that female-bodied people are being treated differently than male ones? No, not really, because like I said, I think it's largely subconscious. I think if anything, it says more about how men treat other men. I think a firm handshake is a sign of respect or dominance, or something like that. And men don't feel they need to assert that dominance over women. That'd be how I feel about it. 12 minutes ago, Homer said: Could it even be a sign of success at passing (as in, a firm handshake indicating that one doesn't pass that well?) Is it just *shrug* I've always taken it as a sign of passing. It threw me off the first few times until I realized what was going on. I definitely didn't get it at first. Link to post Share on other sites
vmdraco Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hmm, I can't say I've learned much since I don't really pass that often, so I was never really treated like the gender I am. One thing I have learned though is that people talk to AFAB people in an almost patronizing or condescending tone. I get this from older women especially, along with these little pet names that is evident by my sidebar (and boy does that get annoying really fast). Versus when they talk to AMAB people they are very blunt, to the point, and don't go out of their way to help them if they have a problem, regardless of the situation. I saw this often when doing something on a job, or with heavy objects. I tend to insert myself to help out in any way I can since I know I'm not very strong, but I'm almost never recognized for it despite putting in the effort, while the Big Strong Boys™ are thanked for their help. It's that kind of thing, where you're not valued as much in that kind of setting? If that makes sense. Like, I get that I'm not the hulk and I can't carry anything too heavy, but it almost feels expected for my AGAB to not interfere or to not be considered for that. I feel that once I go on T I will notice how people treat me, and that includes how they value my input or help. I didn't notice the differences too much until now, mainly because I just accepted it and didn't pay much attention to it before I realized I was trans. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 26 minutes ago, Homer said: What do you feel is missing? (Again, this question is related to my complete failure in making sense of societal influence) I don't know how to answer that, I have difficulty to deal with even basic social requirements, so I can't even come across as a normal human, let alone as a normal girl Link to post Share on other sites
Mezzo Forte Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Not gonna make a comprehensive list, but rather maybe post thoughts here on occasion, but to name a few: - Gender typically gets relegated to tacit knowledge; cis people don't have to think about things in the same way a dysphoric trans person might. - Classroom management is also 100x easier now that I'm perceived as a man. Before transition, undergraduate students (often cis men) would speak over me and try to run my ensembles. I ran the same exact groups after I transitioned, and that didn't happen once. Doubt it was from any burst of confidence or anything either. - Male touch is inherently sexualized; that male-on-male touch is instantly assumed gay and therefore taboo. Fuck that noise. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 11 hours ago, butterflydreams said: I mean it as I feel a lot of pressure to be attractive in a very conventional way. I feel pressure to know how to do makeup, and do it well. And it's so easy to feel inferior to other women, especially other trans women, who are more attractive than me. Does that make sense? Yes, I feel pressured into doing make up too. But I don't really feel like doing it.. But I hope I'll get away with just a bit of foundation to cover up remnant beard shadow... But most probably not Link to post Share on other sites
butterflydreams Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 14 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said: - Gender typically gets relegated to tacit knowledge; cis people don't have to think about things in the same way a dysphoric trans person might. Interesting. Do you have an example of what you mean? I’m curious about this. 14 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said: - Male touch is inherently sexualized; that male-on-male touch is instantly assumed gay and therefore taboo. Fuck that noise. Yeah, this does suck. I also hate how male sexuality itself is largely misunderstood and demonized. I find it to be very attractive and unique. One thing I was told I’d notice, but really haven’t, is people listening to me less. I think I come off as more confident and assertive now that I’m fighting less dysphoria and feeling more like myself. I haven’t found much of a difference in how people listen or respond to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Kimmie. Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Well I have learned so much more about myself sence I started discovering my actual gender. I am more positive about life and I have been way more comfortable around women. I don't know if this is what you mean because I have not really started to transition yet. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Learned from being trans? Uhm, that it's ok to have been wanting breasts and not be crazy at all ._. That's ok to not be weird to never have wanted to use the downstairs department at all. Link to post Share on other sites
Mezzo Forte Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, butterflydreams said: Interesting. Do you have an example of what you mean? I’m curious about this. Things like how we identify biological sex/gender. Most people don't know about things like the importance of the silhouette, or how much gait impacts how we see gender, or what non-pitch elements separate what we consider 'male' and 'female' voices. (Kind of like what I mentioned in another thread about how trans people are better at identifying others' assigned gender at birth than cis people are.) There's also the layer of 'learning' the social expectations of more than one gender, like how trans people freak out about learning bathroom etiquette. Even your handshake observation is testament to this, because people don't actively think about giving softer handshakes to women, they just do. (Unless you're me and just give everyone the same overbearing handshake. ) Most cis people don't have to think about it because they learned such things from a young age. During the times I went full advocate mode and actively shared a lot of stories about my transition experiences, I inevitably heard countless "I never thought about that" commentary about all kinds of little things, and it's just because I'm describing situations where I am forced to be aware of my gender in ways that cis people never really have to. ) 2 hours ago, butterflydreams said: Yeah, this does suck. I also hate how male sexuality itself is largely misunderstood and demonized. I find it to be very attractive and unique. One thing I was told I’d notice, but really haven’t, is people listening to me less. I think I come off as more confident and assertive now that I’m fighting less dysphoria and feeling more like myself. I haven’t found much of a difference in how people listen or respond to me. Yeah, there's a lot of frustrating, conflicting views of male sexuality out there, but the thing that's consistent is that touch is treated as inherently sexual. When my friend studied elementary music ed, the university pulled all the men aside to basically say "do not touch your students. At ALL. Even if they're hurt. If they try to hug you, put your arms out like a tree." The women educators never got that same talk. Plus, you can only imagine how I feel as some who enjoys platonic touch with other men. I could only imagine the reactions if I got drunk (and therefore tactile) around the wrong people. I think the confidence shift helps with people listening to you. I still feel like I'm about as meek as I was before hormones, but I apparently come off as more confident regardless. How much of that is comfort in my skin and how much of that is gender perception, who knows? Whether I'm listened to more or less, I'm not really sure, but nobody tries to take charge and run my ensembles for me anymore at least. Link to post Share on other sites
butterflydreams Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said: Things like how we identify biological sex/gender. Most people don't know about things like the importance of the silhouette, or how much gait impacts how we see gender, or what non-pitch elements separate what we consider 'male' and 'female' voices. (Kind of like what I mentioned in another thread about how trans people are better at identifying others' assigned gender at birth than cis people are.) There's also the layer of 'learning' the social expectations of more than one gender, like how trans people freak out about learning bathroom etiquette. Even your handshake observation is testament to this, because people don't actively think about giving softer handshakes to women, they just do. (Unless you're me and just give everyone the same overbearing handshake. ) Most cis people don't have to think about it because they learned such things from a young age. During the times I went full advocate mode and actively shared a lot of stories about my transition experiences, I inevitably heard countless "I never thought about that" commentary about all kinds of little things, and it's just because I'm describing situations where I am forced to be aware of my gender in ways that cis people never really have to. ) Oh ok...gotcha. Yeah, I agree that’s very interesting to think about. I guess I’ve had moments too, when talking to my friend where she didn’t really think about things the way I seemed to talk about them. That “I never thought of that” kind of reaction. I wonder if this stuff goes away with time. Like, the more you transition and just get used to the new role, does it become less pronounced? I can’t imagine myself 20 years from now at 50 still noticing those things. That’ll have been a huge chunk of my life, almost half, lived as a woman. 40 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said: Yeah, there's a lot of frustrating, conflicting views of male sexuality out there, but the thing that's consistent is that touch is treated as inherently sexual. You won’t hear me complaining that it’s bullshit that this is how things are. It’s such a shame. I definitely learned to appreciate how beautiful male sexuality is once I transitioned. Before, it was too close and I couldn’t see it for the dysphoria clouding everything. It’s the one area where men are allowed to be tender and caring and loving and vulnerable. I just love it. 43 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said: When my friend studied elementary music ed, the university pulled all the men aside to basically say "do not touch your students. At ALL. Even if they're hurt. If they try to hug you, put your arms out like a tree." The women educators never got that same talk. God I hate this. Such a double standard. I see if all the time at the school I work at. Adult women are allowed to hug kids, hold their hands, comfort them, etc etc. I always try to imagine an adult male doing the same exact thing and it immediately changes. Imagine if you were a guy who loved kids? No wonder there are so few male elementary educators. I had a male kindergarten teacher and I loved him to death. I even wrote him letters when I was in 2nd grade telling him that I was reading and stuff. 46 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said: Plus, you can only imagine how I feel as some who enjoys platonic touch with other men. I could only imagine the reactions if I got drunk (and therefore tactile) around the wrong people. You definitely need to be genuinely careful. I maintain that a lot of people are touch starved, and while I still am, it’s one of the things I love about being seen as a woman socially. That touch barrier is just gone. I’m not a fan of casual touch though, so I don’t like it when women touch me in that kind of way. I like that hugs feel more real and better, and I don’t mind putting my arm around my friend. Link to post Share on other sites
Calligraphette_Coe Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 That when it comes to being differently gendered, unconditional love is an urban myth. That sometimes, just when you think it's okay to leave down your guard with someone cis, you often live to regret it. They often will start ghosting you for no reason other than their discomfort with you. Or their other halves' discomfort with you. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 That despite the veneer of social progress that covers our society in terms of LGBTQ rights since Obergfell, we still have a long way to go... Link to post Share on other sites
Lonemathsytoothbrushthief Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 That I'm never going to be a person who enjoys passing as anything but myself, and will always want to break these barriers. I don't want to pass as neurotypical, even if I'm verbal and generally don't have as significant obstacles around eye contact as other autistics(even if I get so many anxious feels about how my body language is being perceived, I can fake it a lot and if it does happen, lingering anxiety aside it doesn't affect me as negatively), and am just giving myself much more leeway with what I can or can't do. Similarly, I don't want to pass as cis, but unfortunately that one's just super difficult to buck and of course I am fairly nervous about transition related stuff. I pass as my assigned gender just because I've always dressed in different ways to most people, and my friends probably don't see much of a difference. But I'm not sure how necessary it is to me to try and pass as a cis man, or fuck with others' perceptions of these things, because to some extent that feels like a lie too-most of the time I'm way too busy trying to separate myself from all of the other concerns I have about how people perceive me to be focused on how they view me based on gender, and what matters more is how I feel about my own body as well as how people react to me in conversations. Of course, this does also mean I really wish people wouldn't carry so many of their perceptions of me as a stranger into a friendship or whatever though-because coming out to someone you know as trans is almost the ultimate test of whether that person is truly interested in getting to know you as a person, or would rather cling to superficial perceptions than invest in a real relationship. It kind of highlights to you how superficially people can sometimes treat their relationships, that they aren't willing to work on the gendered component-but then there's all of this social conditioning which causes us to form friendships with this gendered component, and affects us no matter what our gender is, so in some ways it's like relationships are sometimes doomed from the start. Sorry, long ramble. Link to post Share on other sites
Mezzo Forte Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, butterflydreams said: Oh ok...gotcha. Yeah, I agree that’s very interesting to think about. I guess I’ve had moments too, when talking to my friend where she didn’t really think about things the way I seemed to talk about them. That “I never thought of that” kind of reaction. I wonder if this stuff goes away with time. Like, the more you transition and just get used to the new role, does it become less pronounced? I can’t imagine myself 20 years from now at 50 still noticing those things. That’ll have been a huge chunk of my life, almost half, lived as a woman. I wonder a bit about that too. What you say reminds me of something I experience with teaching percussion. Sometimes, it's actually harder to teach the basics of your strongest instruments because all the technique becomes basically unconscious. You have to actively remember how to put in words what you're doing so you can communicate that to someone who does not have the same training. In a way, it becomes tacit knowledge. That's actually partially why I like teaching: it forces me to remember how to put these thoughts into words and convey how to develop these techniques. I wouldn't be surprised if some trans people did kind of forget this stuff. Heck, not every trans person is equally sensitive to gendered associations. I think my experience with ethnomusicology makes me far more likely to cling to this awareness though, as even my cis professors make commentary about the ways gender perception can impact your work. How it opens some doors and closes others. I like looking critically at gender, and I always like to be observant of that kind of thing from a cultural perspective, so I'm pretty sure my experiences from transition are going to remain tools in my own toolbelt. On 2/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, butterflydreams said: You won’t hear me complaining that it’s bullshit that this is how things are. It’s such a shame. I definitely learned to appreciate how beautiful male sexuality is once I transitioned. Before, it was too close and I couldn’t see it for the dysphoria clouding everything. It’s the one area where men are allowed to be tender and caring and loving and vulnerable. I just love it. It's nice that men can express tenderness and caring in the context of sexuality, though I really wish that wasn't the case. I think that's why emotionally intimate friendships between men are scrutinized in the ways they are. I've also heard commentary that it also leaves a man's romantic partner as the sole source of emotional support while women tend to have a better timing building entire support networks to meet their emotional needs. On 2/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, butterflydreams said: God I hate this. Such a double standard. I see if all the time at the school I work at. Adult women are allowed to hug kids, hold their hands, comfort them, etc etc. I always try to imagine an adult male doing the same exact thing and it immediately changes. Imagine if you were a guy who loved kids? No wonder there are so few male elementary educators. I had a male kindergarten teacher and I loved him to death. I even wrote him letters when I was in 2nd grade telling him that I was reading and stuff. Yeah, this frustrates me to no end, especially because I know plenty of men who really love elementary education/working with kids who struggle with this. Plus, I've heard that a lot of people look at physically affectionate fathers with suspicion as well, and that's something I'm not looking forward to should I ever choose to raise a child. Even as a college professor, I feel like I have to be careful to make sure that nothing I do or say could be misinterpreted as anything sexual or inappropriate. The touch stuff is simple in lecture settings at least, since there's always a physical distance between you and the students. Music performance is a bit less simple, as touch is sometimes the most straightforward way to communicate things like how to fix a mallet grip, but I try to make sure to always ask before I ever physically engage a student. On 2/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, butterflydreams said: You definitely need to be genuinely careful. I maintain that a lot of people are touch starved, and while I still am, it’s one of the things I love about being seen as a woman socially. That touch barrier is just gone. I’m not a fan of casual touch though, so I don’t like it when women touch me in that kind of way. I like that hugs feel more real and better, and I don’t mind putting my arm around my friend. I really feel this sentiment, a lot. It's like how my sis advised that I don't dye that cobalt streak in my hair that I was thinking of getting because it could make people assume that I'm gay. It really sucks too because I'm so goddamn tactile, but it's so rare to find guys cool with that level of platonic touch, and even rarer to find guys who I actively want to share that connection with. Gotta love navigating risks of homophobia without even being actually gay. A lot of casual touch just feels meaningless to me. Banal at best, and clear reminders of touch starvation otherwise. Handshakes are not true physical engagement. Most hugs barely do much for me nowadays since they're so brief and fleeting. The kind of touch that truly benefits me is sustained physical contact. Massages are rad. Even just leaning into someone is nice. I'd list more, but I don't really want to think about all the forms of touch I'd like to have at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 20 hours ago, ChillaKilla said: That despite the veneer of social progress that covers our society in terms of LGBTQ rights since Obergfell, we still have a long way to go... Yeah, a very long way if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites
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