A TMI Gender Question

[butterflydreams]

This question deals with genitals, sex, and all that other stuff. So, you know, if you're not into that, just ignore it I guess.

 

Spoiler

I'm painfully aware of what my genitals are physically. I get it. I'm happy to assert that they don't respond like male genitals at all anymore...thank god, but that doesn't change what they are physically.

 

I recently contemplated having a hookup...with a guy...because why not? I'm an adult, right? I can do whatever I want. But I killed the idea for many reasons. One of which is I'm just not physically configured right. 

 

How can I possibly be sexual with a guy if I don't have the right parts? Moreover, what straight guy would possibly be interested in a girl without the right parts?

 

I want to be with a guy. I want to have that intimacy. But I practically hyperventilate realizing that I'm missing the parts. Like I can't even really believe this is my life. I keep thinking maybe I'll wake up and it'll all have been a bad dream. I worry tremendously that me being with a guy is "just gay" and I think, "why can't you just be a gay guy then?"

 

I think about my friends, who are all coupled up, and I know they have sex, because they tell me. They tell me how great it is. They tell me how awesome it is to "have sex with a guy." Well, thanks. I wish I knew. I wish I could know. 

 

Someone might say, well, just have the surgery. As though that was a reasonable prerequisite to me just wanting to try sex and be intimate with someone. I don't know if I'll ever be able to have the surgery. Even if I want it. So what? Am I doomed to be in this limbo state?

 

I want to try sex with a guy so bad, and I wish like hell that I could just have the right parts. 

 

I've read "fucking trans women" and didn't feel like it had any good information. At least not what I thought it promised. I'm practically crying right now just writing this. Just thinking about how I can't do this super basic thing that a huge portion of the population does. 

 

So I guess my questions are how can I even have sex as I am right now? How do I push it from my mind that it's just gay sex? How do I feel like I'm truly the woman a guy wants when I can't even take the most basic of roles for him?

 

[Guest]

Hmm. 

 

This is difficult cause, you do have "not the right parts" but at the same time, your "parts" respond a lot like a clitoris from what you've told me. You just lack the vaginal canal. So, oral, anal or manual stimulation should still be very much like with a woman. Just PIV is off limits. 

 

Also, it's not gay. You are a woman. You just have the wrong anatomy in one spot for right now, though it responds as it should to be a woman. A lot of men won't be OK with it, but some will. And as long as they agree to it knowing, then that's all that should matter. And I don't really know how to convince you that it's still very much a woman having sex with a man, even without the canal. 

 

My experiences with a trans person are why I do not consider myself hetero anymore. Because I wasn't viewing them as a man, no matter what parts they had. Though, I don't have PiV with people anyway, so it's not like it changes anything for me... as a cis woman, I can't provide that to a man anyway (painful, not fun, ew) so you are every bit as much woman as I am in that way.  

[Gldlynch]

Hey butterflydreams

 

I'm sorry to hear that you are currently in this limbo state, I can't even begin to imagine the struggle. Anyway, the most important thing to do is to embrace yourself right now. Comfort yourself, because I'm sure there are many people like you physically and there are people who are going through the exact same rollercoaster of emotions as you are. Unfortunately I'm not on a level playing field as you but I do believe that everything happens for a reason. I'm sure one day you will meet a person that accepts you for exactly who you are and will be in it for the long run. People who assume your sex is "gay" lack understanding, don't take sh*t from them.

 

"Casual hook-ups" can be like walking on egg-shells because usually people want the physical intimacy with no strings attached. If you find these moments are too hard, then I think your fate is to not go down that path. You must be the type of person who wins other people's hearts. Not having the "right parts" when desiring or having sex is an obstacle but with the calm and right frame of mind between you and your partner, it shouldn't be a difficult obstacle to overcome. Don't rush because all you will stir up is negative energy. Perhaps try reaching out to other people who have been in similar situations as you? Get their input and I'm sure things will work out fine for you!

[butterflydreams]

15 minutes ago, Serran said:

This is difficult cause, you do have "not the right parts" but at the same time, your "parts" respond a lot like a clitoris from what you've told me. You just lack the vaginal canal. So, oral, anal or manual stimulation should still be very much like with a woman. Just PIV is off limits. 

And I can't even do anal. At least, I don't want to. Not because it's not enjoyable (it can be) but because it reminds me too much of "gay sex" and that is such an immediate turn off for me. Clearly the whole "it's just gay" thing is a pretty big mental hurdle for me. I wish I even knew how to have sex with someone as I am. It's hard for me to believe there's a guy out there who would see me as a woman and still want to be with me in spite of everything. I wish I could just have sex like my friends, and it was straightforward and obvious. Instead I have to think of things like, "ok, vibrator under a skirt but over the underwear is ok" and "I can probably give oral, but that's not going to be as good as PIV." Is any guy going to be satisfied with that?

 

21 minutes ago, Serran said:

Also, it's not gay. You are a woman. You just have the wrong anatomy in one spot for right now, though it responds as it should to be a woman. A lot of men won't be OK with it, but some will. And as long as they agree to it knowing, then that's all that should matter. And I don't really know how to convince you that it's still very much a woman having sex with a man, even without the canal. 

I know it's not gay in my head, but sometimes it's hard. Maybe it's because I don't know what it's like to have a guy see me and treat me like a woman in a relationship. If I knew that was possible, maybe I'd feel a lot better. Maybe that's all it is. I know I'm a woman. It's just hard when you get all these messages about what being a woman is. And when I have friends telling me all the things they do. It's hard not to feel like a crappy simulacrum of a woman.

 

32 minutes ago, Serran said:

 

My experiences with a trans person are why I do not consider myself hetero anymore. Because I wasn't viewing them as a man, no matter what parts they had. Though, I don't have PiV with people anyway, so it's not like it changes anything for me... as a cis woman, I can't provide that to a man anyway (painful, not fun, ew) so you are every bit as much woman as I am in that way.  

That actually helps a lot to hear. It always helps to hear cis people having some of the same experiences and struggles as trans people. You're clearly still a woman despite not being able to do a certain kind of sex. Maybe I am too.

 

33 minutes ago, Gldlynch said:

"Casual hook-ups" can be like walking on egg-shells because usually people want the physical intimacy with no strings attached. If you find these moments are too hard, then I think your fate is to not go down that path. You must be the type of person who wins other people's hearts. Not having the "right parts" when desiring or having sex is an obstacle but with the calm and right frame of mind between you and your partner, it shouldn't be a difficult obstacle to overcome. Don't rush because all you will stir up is negative energy. Perhaps try reaching out to other people who have been in similar situations as you? Get their input and I'm sure things will work out fine for you!

So far no friends I've mentioned it to have agreed that I should do a casual hookup. One did, but it was only after I prodded her with an appeal. I know she'd still rather I not do it. 

 

I wonder if this all comes back down to the same old hangup: I need someone to show that they love me as I am. I need to feel loved in that way to know that it's possible. Then maybe all of this stuff that I'm worried about now wouldn't feel so bad. Because someone showed that I am lovable. I am worthy of that kind of partnership. Maybe in that context sex wouldn't be a big deal at all. Too bad it's so damn hard to get myself into that context. I've been trying going on 2 years now with little to nothing to show for it.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

And I can't even do anal. At least, I don't want to. Not because it's not enjoyable (it can be) but because it reminds me too much of "gay sex" and that is such an immediate turn off for me. Clearly the whole "it's just gay" thing is a pretty big mental hurdle for me. I wish I even knew how to have sex with someone as I am. It's hard for me to believe there's a guy out there who would see me as a woman and still want to be with me in spite of everything. I wish I could just have sex like my friends, and it was straightforward and obvious. Instead I have to think of things like, "ok, vibrator under a skirt but over the underwear is ok" and "I can probably give oral, but that's not going to be as good as PIV." Is any guy going to be satisfied with that?

Uhm. Well. My ex preferred oral 80% of the time. And I can't do anal either - I tried once and it hurt and was not pleasant at all... so nope, that's on my hard no list now. Ha. So, really, what you can offer a guy is what I can as well - oral or manual stimulation.  

 

40 minutes ago, butterflydreams said:

 

I know it's not gay in my head, but sometimes it's hard. Maybe it's because I don't know what it's like to have a guy see me and treat me like a woman in a relationship. If I knew that was possible, maybe I'd feel a lot better. Maybe that's all it is. I know I'm a woman. It's just hard when you get all these messages about what being a woman is. And when I have friends telling me all the things they do. It's hard not to feel like a crappy simulacrum of a woman.

 

I think you're just projecting negativity from society that doesn't understand and your own insecurities onto yourself, honestly. My experience dating a transwoman was I saw her as a woman and honestly, the times she presented as a man cause still in the closet was uncomfortable because I really didn't see her as a man ... so the suddenly masculine appearance was weird... 

[butterflydreams]

26 minutes ago, Serran said:

Uhm. Well. My ex preferred oral 80% of the time. And I can't do anal either - I tried once and it hurt and was not pleasant at all... so nope, that's on my hard no list now. Ha. So, really, what you can offer a guy is what I can as well - oral or manual stimulation.  

Well that's good to know. I guess without the experience, I thought guys wouldn't want just that. Should I maybe be trying to understand that while I can't have sex the same way my friends do, it's not lesser? 

 

I don't really want to, but technically speaking, I do have the capacity to be attracted to women, it's just not super common. Maybe that would be easier? I'd really like to be with a guy though.

 

36 minutes ago, Serran said:

I think you're just projecting negativity from society that doesn't understand and your own insecurities onto yourself, honestly. My experience dating a transwoman was I saw her as a woman and honestly, the times she presented as a man cause still in the closet was uncomfortable because I really didn't see her as a man ... so the suddenly masculine appearance was weird... 

Huh. That's an interesting experience to have had. I know I've had people tell me they can't imagine me as a man. Especially people who've only really seen me post transition. 

 

And it's probably true that I'm projecting a lot of negative messages from society onto myself. It's so hard not to. I feel like I'm fighting against everything by myself. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, butterflydreams said:

Well that's good to know. I guess without the experience, I thought guys wouldn't want just that. Should I maybe be trying to understand that while I can't have sex the same way my friends do, it's not lesser? 

 

I don't really want to, but technically speaking, I do have the capacity to be attracted to women, it's just not super common. Maybe that would be easier? I'd really like to be with a guy though.

 

It's just going to be up to what people want. It's not lesser, it's just different from the norm. Sure, a lot of people want PiV. But, not everyone will require it. Just be open and honest and find someone compatible with what you can offer.  Though, in a casual sex scenario, I doubt a lot of guys would be like "Pft, no I won't let you give me a blow job, I only want penetrative sex"... in a serious relationship it would become more of an issue, if the person was the type that needed penetrative sex. 

[butterflydreams]

35 minutes ago, Serran said:

in a serious relationship it would become more of an issue, if the person was the type that needed penetrative sex. 

I have to blush  and be honest here...I find the notion of penetrative sex to be very appealing myself. It's like how my brain naturally expects sex to be. And I think that's a big part of the reason I'm so frustrated and upset. I can't have the type of sex even I want to have. It's almost less about how my potential partner would feel and more about how I feel I'm unable to be how I want to be sexually. This is why my breasts feature so heavily in my sexual imagining. They're a part of me that is correct and it's amazing how much that makes a difference.

 

But, this is also why I kind of feel surgery may not solve this problem. It wouldn't be as good as the cis equivalent, so wouldn't it be better to just stick with what I have?

 

I wish there were tutorials on how to have sex as a trans woman without surgery. Or does it just depend on each individual guy anyway?

 

51 minutes ago, Serran said:

 Though, in a casual sex scenario, I doubt a lot of guys would be like "Pft, no I won't let you give me a blow job, I only want penetrative sex"

Hahaha, good point. Though my friends have said they're very not keen on giving them. So I'm left to feel like it's a bad thing. It's certainly not mutually pleasurable.

[Starbogen]

Hmm so first I'll second what others have said about how not being able to have PIV sex doesn't make you any less of a woman because there are some other (cis) women who might want sex and even want PIV sex on some level but not be mentally ready or physically capable of having it.

 

Also, I agree with your friends that a hookup might not be the best thing and that a sexual experience would probably be way better with someone you really know and who really knows you and likes you and respects you as a person and as a woman. Even if it wasn't super physically pleasureable sex it would probably feel a lot better emotionally. But of course I don't know the circumstances or how you feel.

 

(Maybe TMI?)

 

I guess I'll tell you my experience with sex and dysphoria as a trans guy... Obviously it's different but maybe some of it might help. I figured that I was just asexual and I didn't feel the need or want to have sex with anyone, but then I casually started having phone sex with my best friend. And I guess that phone sex might be a good starting place for you too with this because then you basically don't have to worry about dysphoria. What your genitals physically are doesn't matter and you can speak and visualize things with all the right parts (this is what I did/do and it felt great). The downside of this would be that you don't get to actually be there with the other person or touch them but I that was in fact totally preferable for me at the time.

 

But then when we met up in real life for the first time we ended up having sex almost immediately when we got to our room. And the way we worked around my dysphoria was (we had had several conversations before about what I was okay and not okay with) that I never took off my clothes and I pleasured her and then I took care of myself over my clothes as always and she watched. The second time we met up we kinda got a bit more physically intimate and I let her sort of touch me a bit more over my clothes or touch other parts of my body that are okay.

 

Anyway, my point is that I think there are definitely ways to have sex once you figure out what you're comfortable with and what you want and what the other person is comfortable with and what they want. I personally (and she as well) would love to have PIV sex but I don't have the right equipment so we have to do that in other ways. In my case I can either buy a prosthetic or do things manually, in your case there's the option of oral.. And yeah, it sucks that it's nowhere close to PIV and it isn't mutually pleasurable but it's the closest thing we can have without bottom surgery. 

 

Other options for having sex would involve letting the other person touch your parts. I'm definitely not comfortable with that idea and probably never will be if they remain the same. But if you're okay with it I'm sure there are men who would be okay with it too. It crossed my mind that maybe you would have more luck with a bi guy who could appreciate you as a woman but also be fully okay with your genitals. But then maybe that'd just make the "feeling like it's too close to gay sex" situation worse... I don't know, both straight men and gay men seem so much more narrow to me when it comes to not wanting trans women and trans men because we have the wrong parts. I figured it might be easier with bisexual men but maybe I'm just being unfair.

 

In any case, having sex with a man in any way would not be gay sex because you're a woman. I can completely understand where those feelings come from because I also think like that sometimes (like "oh no having sex in this position feels so weird and bad because it makes me feel like a woman" that kind of thing..). But you're a woman, and having a certain kind of sex instead of another wouldn't change that. Just do what you're comfortable with within what you're able to do. 

[butterflydreams]

17 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

And I guess that phone sex might be a good starting place for you too with this because then you basically don't have to worry about dysphoria.

I've actually done something similar to this in the past. I've gone on omegle, hidden the top part of my face and had cybersex(?) with some guys there. It's a pretty risky endeavor, but I did my best to keep myself safe. When I was doing it, it was actually very pleasurable. It's part of how I know I like guys. Though it always seemed to end when I wouldn't show them "down there" because I couldn't. Up until that point though, it was a very interesting experience to have. I should try it again sometime. It's been a while.

 

20 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

But then when we met up in real life for the first time we ended up having sex almost immediately when we got to our room. And the way we worked around my dysphoria was (we had had several conversations before about what I was okay and not okay with) that I never took off my clothes and I pleasured her and then I took care of myself over my clothes as always and she watched. The second time we met up we kinda got a bit more physically intimate and I let her sort of touch me a bit more over my clothes or touch other parts of my body that are okay.

See, this I could handle. Over the clothes, but a mutual experience. I just didn't figure that most guys would be willing to do that. Part of my problem is definitely that I'm not sure guys could be attracted to me. I have some idea that they can, but it's never really happened in real life. 

 

24 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

Anyway, my point is that I think there are definitely ways to have sex once you figure out what you're comfortable with and what you want and what the other person is comfortable with and what they want. I personally (and she as well) would love to have PIV sex but I don't have the right equipment so we have to do that in other ways. In my case I can either buy a prosthetic or do things manually, in your case there's the option of oral.. And yeah, it sucks that it's nowhere close to PIV and it isn't mutually pleasurable but it's the closest thing we can have without bottom surgery. 

And you and your partner are both satisfied with that? That's my biggest concern is that it wouldn't be totally satisfying for a guy, but maybe like Serran said, most guys aren't going to just turn down oral.

 

25 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

Other options for having sex would involve letting the other person touch your parts. I'm definitely not comfortable with that idea and probably never will be if they remain the same. But if you're okay with it I'm sure there are men who would be okay with it too. It crossed my mind that maybe you would have more luck with a bi guy who could appreciate you as a woman but also be fully okay with your genitals. But then maybe that'd just make the "feeling like it's too close to gay sex" situation worse... I don't know, both straight men and gay men seem so much more narrow to me when it comes to not wanting trans women and trans men because we have the wrong parts. I figured it might be easier with bisexual men but maybe I'm just being unfair.

I just didn't think guys would be ok touching my parts. I'm not totally opposed to it, they'd just have to understand that they are feminized parts now. They work differently, they don't respond to things guys tend to like. My friend suggested a pansexual guy. I'm not opposed to bi or pan guys, but damn they do seem rare. And the ones I have come across weren't exactly nice about it. Though maybe I've got some learning to do myself. Maybe I dismissed people too easily. 

 

TMI

Spoiler

Honestly, it behaves like an oversized clitoris. I can't have someone who's bi or pan thinking that they can just treat that part of me like a male part and be done with it. It won't work that way. Above and beyond not wanting it to seem like gay sex.

 

I've also considered trans men, because I'm definitely attracted to them too. But they seem hesitant to date trans women. I don't know why. 

 

35 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

In any case, having sex with a man in any way would not be gay sex because you're a woman. I can completely understand where those feelings come from because I also think like that sometimes (like "oh no having sex in this position feels so weird and bad because it makes me feel like a woman" that kind of thing..). But you're a woman, and having a certain kind of sex instead of another wouldn't change that. Just do what you're comfortable with within what you're able to do. 

Thank you. I think I need to just keep repeating this in my head. I am a woman, I am a woman. No matter what I do or who I eventually have sex with, I am still a woman.

[Starbogen]

1 hour ago, butterflydreams said:

See, this I could handle. Over the clothes, but a mutual experience. I just didn't figure that most guys would be willing to do that. Part of my problem is definitely that I'm not sure guys could be attracted to me. I have some idea that they can, but it's never really happened in real life. 

Well most straight guys probably want more, I don't know, but you'd be surprised. There's so many different kind of people out there that there just has to be men who are okay with that level of sexual activity and who are attracted to you sexually despite what's in your pants. Sorry, I know you probably don't like hearing that kind of thing.. but I do think it's true that those men exist even if they're more unusual and you haven't found one yet.

 

2 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

And you and your partner are both satisfied with that? That's my biggest concern is that it wouldn't be totally satisfying for a guy, but maybe like Serran said, most guys aren't going to just turn down oral.

Hmm, define satisfied? For me at least it just feels like it would obviously be easier and better if we could have the full "real" thing but since I don't know what that would actually feel like it's almost like a "can't miss what I've never had" sort of situation you know? For her it might be like that too in a different way because I'm the first man she's ever been with and before me she identified as a lesbian. So she had had some thoughts about male genitals but had never had any actual experience with them and it's something we'd like to try because it would be better but at the same time we're fairly okay with what we have. I don't think either of us thinks about it outside of the moment when we're having sex.

Another matter could be that neither of us is very sexual, so maybe we need less than other people. I don't need or want partnered sex that often at all and for her the sex is not that great for the physical side of it as much as for other reasons.

 

So maybe being with a demisexual guy could also work (or just someone who's in it more for the intimacy in general than a typical physical experience) though those must be even more rare than bi and pan guys... But in any case I agree with Serran that I think any sexual guy would take just oral over nothing at all.

 

2 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

 

I've also considered trans men, because I'm definitely attracted to them too. But they seem hesitant to date trans women. I don't know why. 

I don't speak for all trans men of course but I can understand why some would be hesitant.. I think it's because some of us are dealing with insecurities of our own and can be a bit scared of being with a woman who might bring attention to our fem features that we're trying to hide. Like my gf is cis but we're the same height and I would feel slightly uncomfortable if she wore heels and was taller than me. I know it sounds dumb but I think that's part of it.. And then there are the same reasons that come up with cis guys. 

Though I do think trans guys are more open to it and more understandable and I've seen a lot more cases of trans men with trans women than of cis men with trans women. 

 

2 hours ago, butterflydreams said:

Thank you. I think I need to just keep repeating this in my head. I am a woman, I am a woman. No matter what I do or who I eventually have sex with, I am still a woman.

Yeah! I know it's hard but it's just one of those things we have to keep doing for ourselves. It's definitely gotten easier to believe over time.

[butterflydreams]

20 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

Well most straight guys probably want more, I don't know, but you'd be surprised. There's so many different kind of people out there that there just has to be men who are okay with that level of sexual activity and who are attracted to you sexually despite what's in your pants. Sorry, I know you probably don't like hearing that kind of thing.. but I do think it's true that those men exist even if they're more unusual and you haven't found one yet.

Well, I'm pretty sure at least some men are attracted to me without knowing what's in my pants. That's every guy who's liked me on tinder, or played with me on omegle. I guess the issue is bridging that gap between liking me before they know what's in my pants and liking me afterwards. It's tough for sure. But I want to try to remember that guys have been attracted to me before knowing of my status.

 

23 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

So maybe being with a demisexual guy could also work (or just someone who's in it more for the intimacy in general than a typical physical experience) though those must be even more rare than bi and pan guys... But in any case I agree with Serran that I think any sexual guy would take just oral over nothing at all.

Yeah that's something I didn't really think of. I'm still not a super sexual person either. I'm satisfied with pretty little actually. I never could find any asexual guys around, but maybe you're right that a demisexual kind of guy would be better anyway. I bet people like that exist, but are probably reluctant to label themselves as such. So they're hard to find.

 

I'm pretty sure I can definitely do oral. I just have a weird hangup about it because of how my friends talk so poorly about it. Like, if they think it's bad, is it? 

 

27 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

I don't speak for all trans men of course but I can understand why some would be hesitant.. I think it's because some of us are dealing with insecurities of our own and can be a bit scared of being with a woman who might bring attention to our fem features that we're trying to hide. Like my gf is cis but we're the same height and I would feel slightly uncomfortable if she wore heels and was taller than me. I know it sounds dumb but I think that's part of it.. And then there are the same reasons that come up with cis guys. 

That's fair, and I could also understand not wanting to get tied up in someone else's battle with dysphoria. That's a big reason why I won't date another trans woman. I've got enough dysphoria to manage on my own, I don't need hers getting mixed in too. Trans guys are different to me. One, I can't help but be attracted to them (as I would be any other guy), but two, their dysphoria is based on different things. So I understand it, but it's not based on the same things I'm feeling, if that makes sense.

 

35 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

Though I do think trans guys are more open to it and more understandable and I've seen a lot more cases of trans men with trans women than of cis men with trans women. 

That would be kind of my hope. I feel like that shared understanding would go a long way. I guess being bi is why I'm largely indifferent to genitals. I just feel like I can work with whatever is there.

 

38 minutes ago, Starbogen said:

Yeah! I know it's hard but it's just one of those things we have to keep doing for ourselves. It's definitely gotten easier to believe over time.

Good to know. I'm going to keep working on doing it.

 

Thanks for being so open Starbogen and everyone. This thread was nerve-wracking to write. A little embarrassing. But I feel like I'm learning a lot and getting reasons to not do things that I'd ultimately regret.

[Janus the Fox]

Always difficult yes, it'l take time to find a fully open and understanding friend which can and want to do what you need.