Controversial topic: outing closeted queer people

[everywhere and nowhere]

A little explanation: in this case by "queer" I mean mostly gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Asexophobia is often very unpleasant, but generally non-violent, so outing someone as asexual would rather be perceived as a joke. Transphobia often gets extremely violent and can be completely rightfully called a PHOBIA because the element of fear is very prominent, but outing someone as trans also seems kinda unlikely... perhaps yes, but only in the case of suggesting that someone had undergone gender transition.

I also generally mean outing "public" people, generally politicians and celebrities.

Questions about self-identification and contact with queer people are meant as help questions to check whether there is a correlation here.

[Guest]

I find it hard to understand what you mean with that anology but to put it bluntly:

 

Outing others without their permission is never ok regardless they’re gender identity or sexual/romantic orientation.

[Snao Cone]

In general I think outing regular people, or people who don't actively promote intolerance and discrimination, is awful for so many reasons. We don't know how damaging it could be to their lives or other people's lives - for example, even if they don't have a bigoted family/work environment/whatever perhaps they're sharing closet space with a partner who does. We don't know what damage this will do.

 

With public figures (most notably politicians, activists, or religious leaders) who are strongly promoting anti-LGBT laws, policies, practices, or sentiment, their hypocrisy is a public concern. It shouldn't be their sexuality or gender that makes them bad leaders, though. The bigotry and discrimination should be criticized on its own. If they're closeted and actively living out their identity in private (more about sexuality than gender), that only highlights hypocrisy and double standards. It's not what they're doing in private that's bad (assuming consenting adults - I don't care about the infidelity side, but if it involves children or a lack of consent that's straight out illegal) but the hypocrisy is a public concern.

 

However, this shouldn't be handled as a tabloid story or a "gotcha!" tactic in election season. It's merely part of a larger more serious problem.

[Elftober Country]

Outing people is NEVER ok. 

[XYZ96]

I'm against telling peoples secrets further, and seeing as outing someone, that doesn't want to be outed, is telling their secret further, I find it impermissible. 

The only time it would be ok in my opinion to tell any secret further, is when someones safety is in danger, I can't think of many reasonable situations where not outing someone would put someones life in serious danger..

[Mezzo Forte]

Public figures still have a right to privacy. Outing people without their permission is not okay. It can be flat-out dangerous in some situations.

[Snao Cone]

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

[Grumpy Alien]

I don’t think that’s okay under any circumstances. That’s traumatizing to the individual. It’s very personal and up to the person if/when/who they come out. No one else has that right. I don’t like labels but heterosexual is most apt in my opinion for my orientation. I’m not very involved in any LGBTQ+ communities but I know a lot of people who are and have been to events/am semi-involved with the LGBTQ+ group at work.

[Grumpy Alien]

Just now, Snao Cone said:

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

For all of these, I think exposing the relationship to the appropriate people in private is important. 

Adultery - to the partner

Misappropriated funds - HR of the company or equivalent

Minors - police

 

It’s not at all about the orientations, sex or gender of those involved at that point. (Or at least, it shouldn’t be.) 

[Snao Cone]

4 minutes ago, Graceful said:

For all of these, I think exposing the relationship to the appropriate people in private is important. 

Adultery - to the partner

Misappropriated funds - HR of the company or equivalent

Minors - police

 

It’s not at all about the orientations, sex or gender of those involved at that point. (Or at least, it shouldn’t be.) 

I consider these forms of outing someone, so that's the context of my answers here.

[SkyWorld]

It's never okay to out someone. That's a decision they themselves should make. Yes, it's important for said someone to bring it up to a partner, etc., but not some outside person to come up whenever they want and "do the job for them".

 

59 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

With public figures (most notably politicians, activists, or religious leaders) who are strongly promoting anti-LGBT laws, policies, practices, or sentiment, their hypocrisy is a public concern. It shouldn't be their sexuality or gender that makes them bad leaders, though. The bigotry and discrimination should be criticized on its own. If they're closeted and actively living out their identity in private (more about sexuality than gender), that only highlights hypocrisy and double standards. It's not what they're doing in private that's bad (assuming consenting adults - I don't care about the infidelity side, but if it involves children or a lack of consent that's straight out illegal) but the hypocrisy is a public concern.

I do have the opinion that even public figures have the right to privacy as everyone else. I think this happens because of their internalized homophobia. I think they need professional help.Though I do feel betrayed if they themselves are secretly LGBT+ and yet promoting anti-LGBT+ laws/policies, etc., I also find it sad because they probably don't like themselves, but it's so wrong to push it on other people to make them also not like themselves.

[Baam]

You do not out anyone, regardless of your reason/excuse. I would probably never talk to someone again if they outed me. If I trusted someone that much to come out to them, and they betrayed me like that...

 

Unless they are in danger for some reason and you need to tell someone to protect them. I can't even think of any examples where this would happen, though.

 

The same for public figures - they are people. They deserve their privacy just as much as the next person. Their sex lives is none of our business unless they make it.

[XYZ96]

1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

What about when it's adulterous? 

I'd stay out of it, as not telling doesn't put anyones well-being at direct serious danger, also to much drama.. 

 

1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

What about when it involves minors?

In this situation it would probably be ok, and if a minor is physically involved, should involve outing someone, as someones well-being is being put in serious danger... 

 

(I didn't answer the second, because, no clue, to complicated..) 

[iff]

3 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

In terms of misappropriation of funds, I don't consider it outing as I am required to report such under anti money laundering regulations need to be reported to gardai

 

I think there is also legislation from 2010 in place here that adults aware of adults in a sexual relationship with minors, need to be reported to Gardai.

 

So neither would be outing but dealing with both would be required to be reported.

 

[Antihero.]

1.
No definitely not. Never out anyone without their permission and especially not when they tell you not to. It isn’t your place and you don’t know what you might unleash for the person you’re outing.

 

2.
No. I am a gay man but I am NOT a queer.

3.
I don’t know if they like this word or use that word for themselves (I don’t think so) but if you’re actually asking if I have contact with people who aren’t straight and aren’t asexual either then yes, I do. I know quite some gay and bisexual guys but not through some sort of community. 

[RK800]

1.

No, absolutely not.

 

2.

I'm not ace and consider myself queer.

 

3.

Yes.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

6 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

Then you address those concerns, none of them are caused by being LGBT+ even if they have a slight connection in it being a scenario specific to that, when it involves minors you do everything you can to stop them hurting children, when it's adulterous and the other person is in a happy marriage in their mind, you can explain that they're being cheated on without saying anything else(especially since saying additional stuff would potentially out both their partner and the person they're seeing outside the relationship, and if the partner is also bigoted against any group within the LGBT+ community you can't know if they won't hurt the other person in the relationship as well). When funds are being misappropriated, you organise direct action within your workplace to make it a cooperative with employees taking control, because a minority of people shouldn't get to distribute the money earned by the whole company.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

The fact that many of my best friends now are gay, bi, trans, ace and so on is why I consider myself to have contact with other LGBT+ communities, because LGBT+ communities aren't as accessible to people who can't tolerate quite so many people, so much sound or so much effort to go there and interact with a bunch of strangers who you have to get to know, all at once, just to meet someone who you have one thing in common with. I love the community which I make for myself with my friends, that's what matters.

[Ruru+Saphhy=Garnet]

1. Hell no! Outing someone without their permission is never okay!

2.I'm ace, but I don't consider myself queer.

3. yes, a little.

[The Dryad]

Usually, I think that people have a specific reason, or several reasons why they're not out, arguably, the first and most important one being that they are not completely comfortable and confident "coming out", ei: me, As I'm not " out" as an aro ace yet, only like two people know, but also, I don't usually have a reason to say anything about my romantic or sexual orientation, unless someone makes an off hand comment about getting a boyfriend or having babies, oh boy.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

This isn’t about outing people in general, this is about outing closeted queer people.

 

 

[Snao Cone]

9 hours ago, Jayce said:

This isn’t about outing people in general, this is about outing closeted queer people.

That's the context I'm asking these in, Jayce. If blowing the whistle on these things will expose that someone is in the closet (for example, a politician has a gay lover on the side and is using public funds to pay for the affair) why should that person get any more protection from consequences of that than someone having a straight affair? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

That's the context I'm asking these in, Jayce. If blowing the whistle on these things will expose that someone is in the closet (for example, a politician has a gay lover on the side and is using public funds to pay for the affair) why should that person get any more protection from consequences of that than someone having a straight affair? 

So it’s ok to out to blow the whistle because they’re closeted and they did something bad? That’s the biggest nonsense i’ve ever heard. A criminal should be judged  by their crime, not by their gender identity or sexual/romantic orientation.

 

 And yes, everyone deserves protection, why do you think some prisons have special units for LGBT+ people? You are talking about human rights and even that gay politician you mentioned has them. We should not abuse these rights because we consider their actions wrong. That’s simply not ok, we should leave it up to them whenever they’d like to come out or not, that’s not up to us to determine.

[Guest Deus Ex Infinity]

I'd NEVER try to out a closeted person! It's a delicate private individual decison no one must ever interfere or push.

 

1. No. Never ever.

 

2. Yes. Gay & Queer like hell.

 

3. Yes, quite a lot actually.

[Snao Cone]

1 hour ago, Jayce said:

So it’s ok to out to blow the whistle because they’re closeted and they did somethibg bad? 

That is not what I'm saying! If they did something bad that is relevant to or exposes sexual activity or orientation, they don't get protection from consequences just because they're in the closet. FOR EXAMPLE: say someone commits massive fraud and runs away with loads of money. They're caught and charged and the evidence against them includes documents of a lavish romantic vacation they took with an accomplice of the same gender. Is it okay to use that evidence in court?

 

 

Edited to add: Being in the closet doesn't make it okay for people to get away with crimes or serious ethics violations that may expose them. That's my point.

[Skycaptain]

Outing someone is totally unacceptable in almost any circumstances. I may make an exception if its genuinely accidental, but deliberately outing, no. 

 

Being of a different age-group to many here, I'm uncomfortable with using the term "queer", because prior to my joining AVEN, for the previous 42 years it was extremely homophobic, it was instilled into me "never, under any circumstances refer to someone as queer, it's about the most offensive term to use against someone". Best will in the world it'll take more than a couple of years to unlearn this 

[Vlakorados]

I believe that actions aren't inherently right or wrong. It depends on the context and the reasons behind them.

In this case, I'd say it's mostly a wrong thing to do, unless there are reasons that make it unavoidable.

[Chimeric]

On 2/15/2018 at 6:12 PM, Antihero. said:

No. I am a gay man but I am NOT a queer.

^

I'm a bisexual woman; I reject the "queer" label.

 

On 2/15/2018 at 1:52 PM, Snao Cone said:

To people who think it's never okay:

 

What about when it's adulterous? 

What about when funds are being misappropriated to cover it up? 

What about when it involves minors?

These things can be handled without necessarily outing someone. An adulterer is an adulterer regardless of the sex of their partner. Misappropriating funds to cover up an illicit affair is still misappropriating funds regardless of the sex of their partner. Having sex with children is still having sex with children regardless of the sex of the children - and in this case in particular, this is how it should be. Sexual activity by a man with young boys does not necessarily correlate with homosexuality.

 

When these cases break, outing the person is generally added shock value for the media - I think that's poor taste. That said, if the politician/religious leader/etc/what have you actively lobbies against the LGBT communities, it is worth underscoring their deceit and dishonesty. However, the privacy of the other parties involved ought to be protected.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

I reject the "queer" label.

I embrace the queer label!! But only when it's being used in the original sense (because I am a particularly strange individual)  but if we're talking about the LGBT meaning of it, nah.. I've banged a lot of chicks (boobies!) but I would never apply that label to myself.. I don't know why I'm against it but no matter how queer (strange) I am, or how much I like boobs, the queer (LGBT) identity has never rang true for me personally.

 

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

That is not what I'm saying! If they did something bad that is relevant to or exposes sexual activity or orientation, they don't get protection from consequences just because they're in the closet. FOR EXAMPLE: say someone commits massive fraud and runs away with loads of money. They're caught and charged and the evidence against them includes documents of a lavish romantic vacation they took with an accomplice of the same gender. Is it okay to use that evidence in court?

 

 

Edited to add: Being in the closet doesn't make it okay for people to get away with crimes or serious ethics violations that may expose them. That's my point.

And then it’s still not ok for us to expose them. Us exposing these people means we’d breach they’re right for privacy wich is a basic human right. We should judge them by the crime they’ve committed and not by their sexual/romantic orientation or gender identity. Whenever we like it or not: They are a part of the LGBT+ community thus we should respect that. If we choose to do otherwise it wouldn’t make us a hair better either. Or do you want to tell me it’s ok if you did something bad and everyone would expose you as LGBT+ and make you suffer because of it? I don’t think so.