Asexuality/Low libido SO not the same thing...

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

But I was talking about a person pursuing it just for their own pleasure. My argument is that they cannot claim to be asexual.

Agree totally.

[Cobie]

On 14-2-2018 at 2:42 PM, Telecaster68 said:

Inherent desire for partnered sex. Wanking aids are just convenience.

 Again, I do not understand. Using another person as a wanking aid is partnered sex, there is a partner present and all are engaged in sexual activity.

[Cobie]

22 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

A jerky selfish lover isn't asexual because they prefer partnered sex, for whatever fucked up reason. ...

Ah, I see we agree. 

 

Quote

... I'm differentiating that from a sex positive asexual who enjoys sex, but if left to themselves would be happy to never have it again, because they get nothing inherently for themselves from partnered sex. It's just using their partner as an organic vibrator. 

Asexuals wouldn't be seeking it out, that's the difference.

Exactly, that’s why I said "that is what makes compromise within a mixed relationship entirely different from what @Gldlynch talks about"

 

(my post https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/167521-asexualitylow-libido-so-not-the-same-thing/?do=findComment&comment=1062696403)

(Gldlynch post in https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/167521-asexualitylow-libido-so-not-the-same-thing/?do=findComment&comment=1062696296)

 

 

My point is that under the attraction definition, any  person seeking it out will still be asexual as long as there is no sexual attraction.

 

 

[Telecaster68]

17 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

 Again, I do not understand. Using another person as a wanking aid is partnered sex, there is a partner present and all are engaged in sexual activity.

I'm suggesting there's some kind of grey area where someone who fundamentally would be fine with never having partnered sex, enjoys it when they do have it. (I've seen quite a lot of posts from asexuals saying they enjoy sex without actually wanting to have it, ever - I have no idea how this works, but I accept it's a Thing). If they're in a relationship, this can pan out okay for a long time, especially combined with their feeling that sex is the 'norm' and enjoying the pleasure their spouse takes in it.

 

But they'd still not be bothered if they never had it again. As I say, I don't understand this but I accept it's a Thing.

 

Since they have no emotional stake in having sex, and they're just as happy masturbating, I'd say that puts them somewhere close to the asexual end of the spectrum. If they lose their libido, they feel no need for emotional connection of sex (and many post menopausal women say they still enjoy sex for that connection, despite having very little libido). They also share asexuals' mystification that there's something emotional in sex.

 

It's not clear-cut, but then I think the whole area of 'asexuals who like sex' is far from clearcut anyhow.

 

EDIT: CROSSPOST! I think we're pretty much agreeing.

[Cobie]

31 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

... I have no idea how this works, but I accept it's a Thing)...

Reminds me again of my problems with 'sexual attraction', "It's an emergent property..."   But seriously, acceptance is everything here. 

 

Yes, I totally agree with all in this post. 

[Cnyb]

It seems to me the notion of sexual orientation/identity is overly static, and that a degree of fluidity exists, different amounts/types maybe for different people.

 

After all what is an orientation?  What if my eyes are oriented West, while I'm walking backwards towards the East.

And I assume an attraction is some kind of vector, there is energy of whatever amount that is oriented in some general (or more specific?) direction.

 

At any given point in time, what is one doing about one's orientation and energy vector?  There is not a single energy level, there is a range, larger or smaller at different times or under different conditions.  There is not a single orientation, one may not always be looking where they are walking, or one may be ambling about haphazardly for a while.

 

The overall picture can be generalized into a type of energy distribution and a type of overall orientation, but it isn't static.

[Telecaster68]

That sounds incredibly complicated and abstract to me. I think that's in part because of the way AVEN as a generality seems to think 'attraction' is this weird cosmic force that operates without an object. Logically, that can't be the case. We must be attracted to someone, and once that happens, all the abstractions about energies and vectors disappear. There is a subject, a verb and an object. It's that simple.

[Cnyb]

Well one of my hobbies is to overthink something to see how abstract and complicated it can get.  I guess I should have just said "I don't get the sexual attraction thing, it confuses me"

[DryRain]

Okay so essentially, what you all are saying is :

-seeking partnered sex whatever the reason makes someone non-asexual

-compromising with a non-asexual partner (and having sex) does not necessarily make someone non-asexual

-asexuals can enjoy sex but would be fine never to have any again

-asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it (?), if they do they aren't actually asexual. (that's my only confusion with this whole post : going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it without actually being sexually attracted to people right ?)

 

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to understand everyone's points

[Cnyb]

I think that's a rather decent interpretation of what people are saying on this thread.

 

For me, there there were times (particularly with a low-libido partner) where either my partner or I would initiate sex cause hey the option was there why masturbate alone -- and those are time periods were where I would say yes, I was in the gray-area that was sexual, I wasn't just trying to prove I wasn't broken, I wasn't just pleasing a partner, I did seek pleasure, and I did enjoy a bit (...I'd also say this was gray-area because I find value in avoiding too much navel-gazing -- despite my hobby, noted above -- and practical questions about whether what I was doing was sexual and whether my attitude was positive are more relevant than hair-splitting about motivation or attraction types.)  Why I was able to get into this kind of sexual mode of being to the degree that I did, I don't know for sure, but there was seeking of sex and some of it was positive, pleasurable, I can't think of that time period as an asexual time period of my life... I was in a sometimes sexual relationship... I was somewhat sexual.

 

For this reason also, I find value in recognizing a degree of fluidity.  I was rather strongly asexual and aromantic through much of high school and college, but during the time period between when I was in my mid-20's but before I hit 40, I had some times where there were exceptional situations where the urge to experiment or to please a partner or to prove myself or to do what is expected, included pleasurable sexual experiences and I would perhaps initiate (though my libido wasn't motivating me to be as active or comfortable with sexuality as ordinary sexual people).  Now I'm currently again in an asexual mode of life, but this time I'm quite content and at peace.

[Telecaster68]

10 hours ago, DryRain said:

Okay so essentially, what you all are saying is :

-seeking partnered sex whatever the reason makes someone non-asexual

-compromising with a non-asexual partner (and having sex) does not necessarily make someone non-asexual

-asexuals can enjoy sex but would be fine never to have any again

-asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it (?), if they do they aren't actually asexual. (that's my only confusion with this whole post : going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it without actually being sexually attracted to people right ?)

 

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to understand everyone's points

Yeah pretty much. An asexual person might seek out sex for some external reason, like pregnancy or pleasing a partner. It wouldn't be for their own direct benefit.

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, DryRain said:

... -asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it (?), if they do they aren't actually asexual.

 

(that's my only confusion with this whole post :

 

going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it

without actually being sexually attracted to people right ?)

I totally understand that you are confused, so am I. 😀

 

You are right, 

“going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it 

without actually being sexually attracted to people.”

 

That’s why many do not like the ‘sexual attraction’ definition of asexuality, and have another way of defining it. @FictoVore. defines it (I think 🤔) as ‘not wanting partnered sex for pleasure’. I agree with that. 

 

“... -asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it, if they do they aren't actually asexual.” is @Telecaster68 take on it ( I think), one that I agree with too. This is people exchanging ideas. You can just take what works for you. 🍀🌸

 

Different people have different ideas about how to define asexuality https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/167389-generational-conflicts-within-the-aven-community/?do=findComment&comment=1062694810

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, DryRain said:

Okay so essentially, what you all are saying is :

-seeking partnered sex whatever the reason makes someone non-asexual

-compromising with a non-asexual partner (and having sex) does not necessarily make someone non-asexual

-asexuals can enjoy sex but would be fine never to have any again

-asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it (?), if they do they aren't actually asexual. (that's my only confusion with this whole post : going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it without actually being sexually attracted to people right ?)

 

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm trying to understand everyone's points

I'm on my phone and need to make breakfast, so hopefully this doesn't have too many strange auto corrects as I'm rushing the tiny keypad typing a bit!

 

For a start, it depends on how your defining sexual attraction. AVEN defines it in the General FAQ (as do some academics) as "a desire for sexual contact with someone else". This would mean the sexuals attraction definition of asexuality can be translated as "an asexual is someone who no desire for partnered sexual activity"

 

I prefer to be more accurate with it, and define an sexual as 'a person who has no desire to have partnered sexual intimacy for pleasure' (or something along those lines) because that most accurately represents the difference between an asexual and a sexual person.

 

Often when people say 'but the sexual attraction definition means you can have sex with whoever you want for your own enjoyment as long as you're not attracted to them!" But then when you ask that person "how are you defining sexual attraction?" there is answer is generally a caricature of how sexual people feel and behave like "well, it's when you see someone you think is hot and you want to have sex with them" (that's not how many sexual people behave, and even for those that do, it's often a lot more complicated than that). Even if that person says something more specific like"it's when you desire sex with a specific person" then one can respond "well then as soon as you're choosing to have sex with one person instead of another, in that moment you're experiencing a desire for sex with that specific person". If you truly didn't want sex with them on any level you wouldn't be able to enjoy the sex and would just be waiting for the sex to be over.. If you're enjoying it though and having it with that person out of a desire for sexual pleasure and fun, and that person is someone you're willing to have it with even if they're not Brad Pitt.. well, you're now talking about very normal sexual behavior, not asexual behavior.

 

Yes, some asexuals can enjoy the *sensations* of sex, but they don't have the innate capacity to connect that with an actual desire for that partnered stimulation. Same with libido, an asexual just can't connect their libido with a desire for *partnered* sexual stimulation, even if they are capable of enjoying some of the feelings they have sex. A rape victim can sometimes experience sexual pleasure and orgasm during an attack so someone can still feel those feelings even if they don't want the sex for their own pleasure (please not I am NOT comparing sex with an asexual to rape, I'm just trying to explain that it's possible for some people to enjoy sex even if they don't want it). 

 

19 hours ago, DryRain said:

seeking partnered sex whatever the reason makes someone non-asexual

No one is saying that. But if you're seeking sex *for your own pleasure* then no, that's not asexual. Asexuals sometimes seek sex for other reasons though, some examples are: to have a baby, to try to 'look normal' (in the same way a gay person may have hetero sex so people don't know they're gay), out of a sense of curiosity like "I THINK I'm ace but I need to try sex just in case I do actually want it and I just don't know I want it as I haven't had it", as a form of self-punishment (sexual people also sometimes have sent for this reason), or even to try to force themselves to start enjoying it so they can 'become' sexual. Those are the most common reasons while asexuals might 'seek' sex. Never for their own sexual pleasure though because they'd just masturbate instead of hunting out someone else to give them that pleasure (a sexual person would do that, not an ace).

 

Lastly, some asexuals have sex to try to keep their sexual partner happy, however they'd be happiest without sex in their lives. Someone can know they're ace if the idea of being sexless forever (and having a partner who could want that too if you're romantic) makes them feel a sense of joy, happiness, and relief.

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

  I ... need to make breakfast ...

Ha,ha, that’s so weird that, I ‘m going to sleep 😴 💤 now. (I know ... you’re an antipode). 

 

[Cobie]

On 14/02/2018 at 11:13 AM, Gldlynch said:

... Sex drives or libido are driven by the desire of having sexual activity, it's usually not related to the person who the sex is done with. Asexuality highlights the "attraction" factor, it's when a person is not sexually attracted to another individual. Asexuals may not necessarily be sexually attracted to the person who they have sex with, but perhaps they love having the act of sex on its own. ...

 

On 16/02/2018 at 1:53 AM, DryRain said:

... asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it (?), if they do they aren't actually asexual. (that's my only confusion with this whole post : going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it without actually being sexually attracted to people right ?) ...

 

On 16/02/2018 at 12:39 PM, Thea2 said:

You are right, 

“going by the attraction definition, one could enjoy sex and seek it 

without actually being sexually attracted to people.”

 

That’s why many do not like the ‘sexual attraction’ definition of asexuality, and have another way of defining it. @FictoVore. defines it (I think 🤔) as ‘not wanting partnered sex for pleasure’. I agree with that. 

 

“... -asexuals can enjoy sex but will not seek it, if they do they aren't actually asexual.” is @Telecaster68 take on it ( I think), one that I agree with too. 

 

On 16/02/2018 at 9:10 PM, FictoVore. said:

... it depends on how your defining sexual attraction. AVEN defines it in the General FAQ (as do some academics) as "a desire for sexual contact with someone else". This would mean the sexuals attraction definition of asexuality can be translated as "an asexual is someone who no desire for partnered sexual activity"

I think 🤔 I got it all wrong. 

 

- Going by the attraction definition, one cannot enjoy sex and seek it (neither if it is without actually being sexually attracted to the person). Because the AVEN definition of sexual attraction is “a desire for sexual contact with someone else".

 

So I am happy with that because that’s what I think too.

 

- And,  @FictoVore. and @Telecaster68  are using the AVEN definition. So now I think @Gldlynch is not using the AVEN definition of sexual attraction, and drawing faulty conclusions.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

 

 

 

I think 🤔 I got it all wrong. 

 

- Going by the attraction definition, one cannot enjoy sex and seek it 

without actually being sexually attracted to people. 

Because the AVEN definition of sexual attraction is “a desire for sexual contact with someone else".

 

So I am happy with that because that’s what I think too.

 

- And,  @FictoVore. and @Telecaster68  are using the AVEN definition.

 

So now I think @Gldlynch is not using the AVEN definition of sexual attraction, and drawing faulty conclusions.

And even if AVEN is defining sexual attraction incorrectly, the fact is it kind of means something slightly different when defining an entire sexual orientation than it does when people may casually use it in a conversation like this. Some people might say 'sexual attraction is when you get horny because you saw a hot chick with a shapely butt walk past you and you want to bang her' (lol) but of course that's only ONE manifestation of it and certainly not a good way to define an entire sexual orientation.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Imagine if a man walks into regular LGBT community or any other place where sexual people gather and have conversations, and he says: ''I'm gay because I'm sexually attracted to men, however I have no interest in having sex with a man, I actually find the idea of that quite repulsive. I loooove having sex with women though, there is something about the feeling of being inside a woman that nothing else can compare to, and they're so soft and warm and always smell nice too. I couldn't be happy in my life if I could not have sex with women, but I'm gay even though I'd never have sex with a man and have no interest in even trying that''. Every person in that room, regardless of how they personally define sexual attraction for themselves, will tell him he is not gay. Because when it comes to sexual orientations, everyone instinctively knows that it's about which gender/s you desire partnered sexual intimacy (for pleasure) with. Everything else, like how you choose partners, and why you choose certain partners over others, and whether you only want sex when you're love or not, all that other stuff is variable. What defines the sexual orientation though is which gender/s you desire partnered sexual intimacy with. Therefore asexuals, obviously, are the orientation do not desire partnered sexual intimacy with anyone (the A means 'without', Asexuals are without that innate desire to have partnered sex which makes everyone else 'sexual').

 

I also have some academic material backing up this definition of sexual attraction (because we have had one member here posting all sorts of academic material that says something very different) and I've been meaning to send it to @Snao Cone because she's working on a new FAQ as far as I know? So it's not just me saying this, there are academics who discuss this too when talking about asexuality and the differences between sexuals and asexuals, and asexual desire etc. I am also meaning to respond to your PM, and send that stuff to Snao, and reply to Chimeric as well haha, I just need to keep away from the forums for a while that will give me more time to actually focus on PMs for a bit because I do actively want to reply to you all (I often just ignore PMs and have no interest in responding to them, but I do actively want to respond to all of you!)

[Cobie]

@FictoVore. Thank  you very much for your reply  😊 But, I can’t keep up with you  It took me hours to make my little post, and I am totally exhausted 😩 and have to go to sleep 💤 now. I will read your ^^ post tomorrow night.   

[DryRain]

Is it just me or every time that @FictoVore. writes a paragraph I have to read it 3 times to understand what's going on

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

... I am also meaning to respond to your PM, ...

Thank you 😊, there's no hurry. 🌸

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

... sexual attraction ... means something slightly different when defining an entire sexual orientation than ... when people ... casually use it in a conversation ...

 

... if a man ... says: ''I'm gay because I'm sexually attracted to men, however ... I loooove having sex with women ... Every person ... will tell him he is not gay. Because when it comes to sexual orientations, everyone instinctively knows that it's about which gender/s you desire partnered sexual intimacy (for pleasure) with. Everything else, like how you choose partners, ... is variable.

 

... Therefore asexuals, the orientation... do not desire partnered sexual intimacy with anyone (the A means 'without', Asexuals are without that innate desire to have partnered sex which makes everyone else 'sexual').

Exactly 👍 , “the A means 'without', Asexuals are without that innate desire to have partnered sex which makes everyone else 'sexual'"

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

...LGB ... when it comes to sexual orientations, ... it's about which gender/s you desire partnered sexual intimacy... with.

@FictoVore. I am a bit confused with your use of the word 'gender' in this quote, where I would have used 'sex':

 

   ... LGB ... when it comes to sexual orientations, ... it's about which  sex/s  you desire partnered sexual intimacy ... with.

 

For me:

sex  means the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics. And

gender means gender roles (social roles based on the sex of the person), or gender identity (personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness).

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

@FictoVore. I am a bit confused with your use of the word 'gender' in this quote, where I would have used 'sex':

 

   ... LGB ... when it comes to sexual orientations, ... it's about which  sex/s  you desire partnered sexual intimacy ... with.

 

For me:

sex  means the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics. And

gender means gender roles (social roles based on the sex of the person), or gender identity (personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness).

 

Which sex you desire sex with just doesn't sound right though

 

And no, it's still which gender/s you desire sex with. Because you can be a hetero man and desire sex with women, even if some of those women were born with a penis. Of course there are also those who aren't attracted to trans people, but many are in the same way they're attracted to non-trans people. 

 

Being a man who is in love with a woman who has a penis doesn't make you gay, you're still a straight man. So it's not about biological sex, it's still about gender

[Cobie]

10 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Which sex you desire sex with just doesn't sound right though

 True, it's a bit oversexed.