Asexuality/Low libido SO not the same thing...

[RunningStrong]

So I was talking to a girl friend today and I ended up coming out to her. It felt totally natural to do so, but then parts of the conversation were in turns totally validating ("I never had celebrity crushes either") and totally not ("Oh! I think I feel the same way about sex; Im have this SUPER low sex drive.")

I can't quite explain why our situations ARE different.

She's been super supportive, and I'm not angry at her for NOT understanding me as someone who is still figuring out my own asexuality, but... I am so confused!

but I can't quite figure out how to explain that asexuality is not the same as a low sex drive?

Anyone can help me make sense of this?

[Guest]

Well, low sex drive and low libido aren't necessarily the same thing. There are plenty of asexual people who have a healthy, functioning libido, but they do not connect that with a desire to actually have sex with other people (they just masturbate instead). But sex drive is more the drive to seek out sex with other people, which asexual people do not have. Asexual people have no desire to connect sexually with other people for pleasure, even though they can have a high libido (meaning they just have to masturbate a lot!).

[Gldlynch]

Hey BlindBeader

 

It's great to hear that you were able to so naturally come out to your friend.

 

I think asexuality is quite seperate from the concept of having a low sex drive. Some people who are asexual, in fact, have regular or high sex drives but remain asexual. Sex drives or libido are driven by the desire of having sexual activity, it's usually not related to the person who the sex is done with. Asexuality highlights the "attraction" factor, it's when a person is not sexually attracted to another individual. Asexuals may not necessarily be sexually attracted to the person who they have sex with, but perhaps they love having the act of sex on its own.

 

^ Quite a poor explanation but I hope it helps!

[Cobie]

On 14/02/2018 at 11:13 AM, Gldlynch said:

Sex drives or libido ...

 

 ... Asexuals may not necessarily be sexually attracted to the person who they have sex with, but perhaps they love having the act of sex on its own.

In my opinion, sex drive and libido are different things, similar to @FictoVore. post above: https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/167521-asexualitylow-libido-so-not-the-same-thing/?do=findComment&comment=1062696170

 

I consider "they love having the act of sex on its own"  a form of sexuality. 

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as 'I like having the act of sex' without sexual attraction. I have to choose a person as my wanking aid, so that choosing is my sexual attraction to this person. Even if, like me in the past, I choose people that I actually do not like at all, and the choosing is in the form of acting without any awareness of it at all.

 

This kind of sex I call 'mutually using each other as a wanking aid', and it is being sexual because there is another person involved. Once you involve another person, it is no longer masturbation. (Googled) Masturbation is the sexual stimulation of one's own genitals for sexual arousal or other sexual pleasure, usually to the point of orgasm.

 

 

 

 

 

[Telecaster68]

58 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

Masturbation is the sexual stimulation of one's own genitals

My reading of a lot asexual posts which talk about enjoying the physical sensations of sex but also being quite being happy if they never had sex again, or being fine if their partner said they never wanted sex again, is that mentally they're masturbating, even if someone else is involved. They'd just as soon not have that other person involved, but the other person has the right anatomical construction to get them to orgasm, in pretty much the same way as, say, a vibrator does. Their partner experiencing that process as an emotional connection is just a happy coincidence for the relationship that they're content to go along with.

 

For the asexual, the mental element is exactly the same as masturbation: physical stimulation to reach orgasm, and you can see this reflected in posts not understanding why sexuals aren't content to masturbate rather than have sex, as from an asexual perspective, it achieves the same thing.

 

The key thing here being that there's no inherent desire for partnered sex, but within a relationship, it's expected, so they go along with it.

[Cobie]

On 14-2-2018 at 6:02 AM, BlindBeader said:

... I can't quite figure out how to explain that asexuality is not the same as a low sex drive?

Anyone can help me make sense of this?

IMHO The difference is that an asexual does not have a sex drive. There are however grey sexuals on the sexual spectrum. 

[Cobie]

 

 

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

The key thing here being that there's no inherent desire for partnered sex, but within a relationship, it's expected, so they go along with it.

Exactly, that is what makes compromise within a mixed relationship entirely different from what @Gldlynch talks about. (my highlighting)

 

3 hours ago, Gldlynch said:

 ... Some people who are asexual, in fact, have regular or high sex drives but remain asexual. Sex drives or libido are driven by the desire of having sexual activity, it's usually not related to the person who the sex is done with. ...

 

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

 

Exactly, that is what makes compromise within a mixed relationship entirely different from what @Gldlynch talks about. (my highlighting)

 

My point was more that using someone else as a wanking aid doesn't make someone sexual.

[Cobie]

Ah righto.  Hmm, I'm probably missing the point what's being sexual  (wanders off thinking)

[Telecaster68]

Inherent desire for partnered sex. Wanking aids are just convenience.

[Cobie]

I so don't get it, giving up now, it's sunny outside 

[Gldlynch]

@Thea2 I just followed the table below (:

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

My reading of a lot asexual posts which talk about enjoying the physical sensations of sex but also being quite being happy if they never had sex again, or being fine if their partner said they never wanted sex again, is that mentally they're masturbating, even if someone else is involved. They'd just as soon not have that other person involved, but the other person has the right anatomical construction to get them to orgasm, in pretty much the same way as, say, a vibrator does. Their partner experiencing that process as an emotional connection is just a happy coincidence for the relationship that they're content to go along with.

 

For the asexual, the mental element is exactly the same as masturbation: physical stimulation to reach orgasm, and you can see this reflected in posts not understanding why sexuals aren't content to masturbate rather than have sex, as from an asexual perspective, it achieves the same thing.

 

The key thing here being that there's no inherent desire for partnered sex, but within a relationship, it's expected, so they go along with it.

However what Thea was trying to say that 'loving having sex with someone else' is not asexuality (we all know it's not). If someone is like ''I prefer fucking women to masturbating on my own, but women are literally just something for me to shove my dick in and cum.. what they look like means nothing to me'' the term for that person is 'jerk', not asexual. That person is clearly not asexual, even though women are practically just something they use to wank with (my ex is a perfect example of that sort of human being, and someone in these forums actually had the gall to ask me if maybe he was asexual.. *rolls eyes*)

 

Also if a self-identifying asexual says 'I could totally masturbate on my own but it's kind of fun to find people to have sex with, y'know? It's fun having someone else there even though sex is no different than masturbation to me' ..That person is not asexual. Sexual people prefer partnered sex to masturbation alone for many reasons, and one of those reasons is that it's 'funner' with someone else. Even if they don't orgasm during partnered sex, most sexual people still prefer partnered sex to masturbation alone (even if masturbation is a guaranteed orgasm every time). I'm typing this for the benefit of other's reading this thread Tele as it's coming across like you're saying 'asexuals can love having sex and actively seek it out as long as they treat people like masturbation aids'. I know you're not saying that, it's just coming across a bit like that, so I wanted to clarify for other people who are reading.

 

6 hours ago, Thea2 said:

I so don't get it, giving up now, it's sunny outside 

Don't worry, I'm also a little lost as to what point Tele is trying to make here. I think he may have misread your first post?

[Telecaster68]

A jerky selfish lover isn't asexual because they prefer partnered sex, for whatever fucked up reason. I'm differentiating that from a sex positive asexual who enjoys sex, but if left to themselves would be happy to never have it again, because they get nothing inherently for themselves from partnered sex. It's just using their partner as an organic vibrator. 

 

Asexuals wouldn't be seeking it out, that's the difference.

 

I am, by total coincidence obviously ;-) describing my wife's explanation of why she used to be happy to have sex and now doesn't see why I'm making such a big deal of her not wanting too. She had no idea people weren't just using each other as masturbatory aids.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Gldlynch said:

@Thea2 I just followed the table below (:

 

Just to clarify, knowing someone is 'sexy' is not necessarily sexual attraction. There are plenty of asexuals who can tell if someone is 'sexy' or not, they just have no desire to actually connect sexually with that person. We have so many members here who thought they were just 'broken sexuals' for years due to the fact that they know they can find people 'sexy', they just don't want sex with someone. That definition needs to be removed from all asexuality resources because it causes nothing but confusion and upset.

 

That little questionnaire also doesn't make it clear that while an asexual may be able to enjoy the sensations of sex when they have it (in the same way a rape victim can orgasm during sex - not comparing asexuality to rape, just saying that it is possible to orgasm even if you don't want the sex) an asexual won't actively desire sexual intimacy for their own pleasure. They'd be 100% happy to never have sex again, and would not 'seek sex out' or 'initiate it' just because they are horny and want an orgasm with someone else. They can have sex for motivations other than their own pleasure, like to please a sexual partner, to have a baby, to try to 'look normal' (in the same way a gay person might have straight sex in the hopes that no one will know their true sexual orientation) but an asexual has no desire for sexual contact for their own pleasure.

 

That questionnaire also makes it sound like as long as someone will fuck literally anyone with no preference, then they're asexual (I'm referring to the part where it says 'sexual attraction is a desire to have sexual contact with a specific person). The moment you're choosing to have sex with someone for pleasure though, no matter who that person is in the whole world, in that moment, you're clearly having a desire to have sexual contact with a specific person. It's so obvious.. but most people seem unable to wrap their heads around that concept. 

 

Asexuals can have sex, they may even experience physically pleasurable sensations from it, but they have no desire to have sex with another person for their own pleasure and if given the choice, would happily choose masturbation (alone, not with another person.. it's sex if you're 'masturbating' by grinding your genitals against another naked person's genitals. End of) over partnered sex if that was an option for them.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

A jerky selfish lover isn't asexual because they prefer partnered sex, for whatever fucked up reason. I'm differentiating that from a sex positive asexual who enjoys sex, but if left to themselves would be happy to never have it again, because they get nothing inherently for themselves from partnered sex. It's just using their partner as an organic vibrator. 

 

Asexuals wouldn't be seeking it out, that's the difference.

 

I am, by total coincidence obviously ;-) describing my wife's explanation of why she used to be happy to have sex and now doesn't see why I'm making such a big deal of her not wanting too. She had no idea people weren't just using each other as masturbatory aids.

Yeah but you know as well as I do that almost every 'sex positive asexual who enjoys sex' around here will say things like 'I love having sex and seek partners out to have it with, but honestly it's no different than masturbation for me, it's just funner with another person!!'.. That is NOT asexuality and only harms any efforts at accurate asexuality visibility and education. Imagine if your wife was one of those self-identified sex positive sex loving asexuals. You'd still be getting just as much sex as when you started the relationship and she'd be loving it. It's important to differentiate between the two things, or else you get articles like the one from the other day with the self-identified 'asexual demisexual slut' (her own words) talking about how much she loves screwing people, but only if she likes and respects them. *sigh*.

 

Also, if her libido wasn't shot from meds (I think you mentioned that she was on heavy medication a while back?) do you think she'd still be using you as a 'masturbation aid' or not? Because if that's really all sex was to her then you'd think it wouldn't be any more effort still having it with you if she still had a libido. Which if that was the case, you probably wouldn't have ended up on AVEN thinking your wife is asexual because you'd still be getting regular sex. This is one of the reasons I'm very hesitant to say 'sex for asexuals can be just like a masturbation aid' because if that really were the case, their sexual partner wouldn't really know they're with an asexual if they were still getting regular enthusiastic sex. You might not have such an issue if your wife was like 'gosh I loooove having sex with you, though it's not that different to masturbation for me'. I think you'd still be happy that she actively wants to have sex with you to orgasm, using your body for her sexual pleasure etc. I mean, now we're talking about a regular sexual relationship for many people. 

 

You've made it clearer now though so hopefully those reading have a  better idea now of what you initially meant  

[Telecaster68]

I totally agree it's a grey area in practice. In my wife's case, a combination of lupus, menopause and some aspie traits seem to be combining to make her effectively asexual. 

 

It's not *just* menopause because, menopause doesn't make a previously sexual woman suddenly not understand there's an emotional component to sex (and she said she's never had that and doesn't understand it anyhow). It's not just lupus because having researched this and asked on lupus forums, it was pretty clear it doesn't necessarily hit libido and sex frequently actually helps pain management. It's not just aspie traits because plenty of aspies love sex (though they do tend to view it as masturbation with another person, which is the exact phrase my wife has used. And there are plenty of other aspie traits she has too, this isn't just about sex).

 

But put them together: menopause hits her libido; lupus adds pain and tiredness to the mix; and aspie traits means she just doesn't need much in the way of emotional connection (again... this is not just sex, this is general behaviour). You end up with someone who is functionally asexual. She doesn't use the word but she hasn't said anything for about the last ten years that would've sparked a 'no you're not asexual' if she'd posted it on AVEN. 

 

And to anticipate the normal shitstorm when I spell this out: I'm not labelling her as asexual, it's just a way of understanding her that best fits with how she describes her feelings: and similarly with aspie traits - not diagnosing, just the best hypothesis that fits observable behaviour. And yes,  I absolutely have the right to make those judgements about things affecting my marriage. 

[Cobie]

On 14/02/2018 at 9:23 PM, FictoVore. said:

... loving having sex with someone else is not asexuality ...

 

... If someone is like ''I prefer fucking women to masturbating on my own, but women are literally just something for me to shove my dick in and cum.. what they look like means nothing to me'' the term for that person is 'jerk', not asexual. ...

 

Also if a self-identifying asexual says 'I could totally masturbate on my own but it's kind of fun to find people to have sex with, y'know? It's fun having someone else there even though sex is no different than masturbation to me' ..That person is not asexual.

@FictoVore. Thank you very much for your reply. I feel really understood. 😊

 

🌸 I am very sorry you had such a nasty ex husband. 😢

[Guest]

This post contains some sex talk so might be a little TMI if anyone here is sex repulsed, just a heads up!

 

2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I totally agree it's a grey area in practice. In my wife's case, a combination of lupus, menopause and some aspie traits seem to be combining to make her effectively asexual. 

 

It's not *just* menopause because, menopause doesn't make a previously sexual woman suddenly not understand there's an emotional component to sex (and she said she's never had that and doesn't understand it anyhow). It's not just lupus because having researched this and asked on lupus forums, it was pretty clear it doesn't necessarily hit libido and sex frequently actually helps pain management. It's not just aspie traits because plenty of aspies love sex (though they do tend to view it as masturbation with another person, which is the exact phrase my wife has used. And there are plenty of other aspie traits she has too, this isn't just about sex).

 

But put them together: menopause hits her libido; lupus adds pain and tiredness to the mix; and aspie traits means she just doesn't need much in the way of emotional connection (again... this is not just sex, this is general behaviour). You end up with someone who is functionally asexual. She doesn't use the word but she hasn't said anything for about the last ten years that would've sparked a 'no you're not asexual' if she'd posted it on AVEN. 

 

And to anticipate the normal shitstorm when I spell this out: I'm not labelling her as asexual, it's just a way of understanding her that best fits with how she describes her feelings: and similarly with aspie traits - not diagnosing, just the best hypothesis that fits observable behaviour. And yes,  I absolutely have the right to make those judgements about things affecting my marriage. 

 

(You don't have to answer this, I just think these are interesting questions to pose when looking at any ace/sexual relationship) Even if she was definitely 100% asexual and was identifying herself that way, do you think either of you would have noticed her 'asexuality' if she had a relatively 'normal' libido and was using your body as her masturbation aid to achieve regular orgasms every time she got horny? If the two of you were having normal, regular sex like anyone else, and she was actively into it to achieve an orgasm every time (which would probably be a real turn-on as it's definitely hot when a woman orgasms), even if her *reason* for the sex was ''well it's just like masturbation except I can include my partner which adds an extra dimension! I love being able to use his penis like a dildo to get myself off'' (or something along those lines) do you think you, as the sexual partner, would have ended up on AVEN trying to seek support for the situation you have found yourself in with her? Or would you be super happy knowing how much your wife loved using your penis for her own sexual pleasure? 

 

All I'm trying to emphasize here is why the 'asexuals using other people as masturbation aids' doesn't really add up when you look at it too deeply! Sex for an asexual might not be a whole lot different than masturbation if they're still able to orgasm from it, but they're still not going to be actively choosing to have that sex instead of masturbating to reach orgasm or else it's not really asexuality anymore. They'll still be happiest without the sex, and the sexual partner will start feeling that reluctance which may in turn stop them wanting to initiate sex so often, and things will slowly divulge into the regular mixed relationship issues we usually see here on AVEN. If the self-identifying asexual enjoys partnered sex to the extent they are continuously very happy with it and can still get just as much pleasure physically from it as anyone else would, and choose to have it of their own volition every time they get aroused so they can have their orgasm with their partner instead of alone.. well, you're now looking at a regular sexual couple who are both getting equal amounts of personal physical enjoyment from the sex they're regularly having. Both partners would be very happy and neither of them would have noticed any sexual disparity in their relationship.

 

Further: for anyone interested in reading my long-winded, rambling posts

 

My asexual ex partner had quite a high libido, masturbated regularly, and was able to find women (especially those he was romantically attracted to) very 'sexy'. He was also quite sex positive aside from having no personal interest in having it himself. I COULD have given him a blowjob so he could reach orgasm instead of masturbating, BUT he would not be able to get any real pleasure from that, or enjoyment, and it would feel very alien to him. He described it as the same feeling as having someone licking and sucking his eyeball.. why would he want that when he can just masturbate to deal with his libido? The whole concept of having someone else 'get him off' was just alien and strange to him, even though he was actually very sensual and romantic. But his genitals were no different to him than an eyeball or inside his nose  - not something someone else has to have anything to do with, nor should they have anything to do with those parts as they're made to be left alone. Maybe he would still have orgasmed due to the stimulation if I'd given him a blowjob or 'boobjob' or whatever, but it would have been very strange for him and certainly not something he would have had any desire to engage in regularly, despite the fact that he could achieve the same ends (an orgasm) regardless of whether he was masturbating himself or someone else was doing it for him. That's how I've seen the vast majority of asexuals describe their experiences of masturbation vs. having someone else masturbate them. It's certainly not something they'd actively choose for their own pleasure, they can't get the same enjoyment from the partnered act, and generally try to avoid it wherever possible. If asexuals can ALSO be people who love partnered sex enough and get enough out of it to actively want to use other people's body as masturbation aids (like, riding dick so they can orgasm instead of just masturbating alone, lol) then the term 'asexual' has kind of lost all meaning!!

 

 

[Telecaster68]

There wouldn't be much difference necessarily, you're right.

 

But in my case, and I suspect a lot of similar ones, there was always something a bit off, different to other sexual partners, which I couldn't quite put my finger on till I started to look into both sexuality and AS. A lack of need for sexual connection defines asexuality, and a lack of ability to connect emotionally is a key part of AS, and many posts on AVEN show both of these.

[MrDane]

“Touch me and make me orgasm, please! And let me do the same to you. BTW we love each other! Rigth?”

Sounds perfect to me. I frankly dont think I would care/differentiate between whether this was mutual masturbation aid or horny, desire based on sexual attraction. Is love present? Yes! Is sex present? Yes!

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

... The moment you're choosing to have sex with someone for pleasure though, no matter who that person is in the whole world, in that moment, you're clearly having a desire to have sexual contact with a specific person. ...

 

Asexuals can have sex, they may even experience physically pleasurable sensations from it, but they have no desire to have sex with another person for their own pleasure and if given the choice, would happily choose masturbation (alone, not with another person.. it's sex if you're 'masturbating' by grinding your genitals against another naked person's genitals. ...

Exactly 😊

[RunningStrong]

14 hours ago, Gldlynch said:

Asexuals may not necessarily be sexually attracted to the person who they have sex with, but perhaps they love having the act of sex on its own.

 

^ Quite a poor explanation but I hope it helps!

Not a poor explanation AT ALL! I haven't been able to articulate this in so many words, so thanks for putting it out there!

I always thought something was missing because the attraction and fuzzy feelings or emotional closeness are SO not there, but I enjoy the act itself, esp. how it feels with my husband. This led to years of guilt because, well, it's biology with no feelings attached for me, and that felt really really wrong, so I just stopped being interested. Now that I can better understand myself I'm actually MORE interested in sex...

Confused yet? Good, because I kinda am...

[Cobie]

.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, BlindBeader said:

 ... fuzzy feelings or emotional closeness are SO not there, but I enjoy the act itself, esp. how it feels with my husband. ...

 

Confused yet? Good, because I kinda am...

 I see you identify as hetero-romantic.

 

Have you looked into the possibility of being a Heterosexual Aromantic? Ha. 😄

[RunningStrong]

10 hours ago, Thea2 said:

 I see you identify as hetero-romantic.

 

Have you looked into the possibility of being a Heterosexual Aromantic? Ha. 😄

No... because I have strong emotional/romantic feelings toward my spouse (and to previous romantic partners) even if I'm not sexually attracted to anyone.

I'm feeling quite confused now, as I see posts upon posts upon posts of people who are in mixed a/sexual relationships, some of whom engage in sexual activity. And some of the judgment I see above (I'm reading the idea that, because I enjoy the physical act of sex itself and choose to enjoy that activity with my partner, that I'm NOT asexual at all?) doesn't clarify things either...

If it's too early in the morning and I haven't had enough coffee, someone can please clarify this?

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, BlindBeader said:

No... because I have strong emotional/romantic feelings toward my spouse (and to previous romantic partners) even if I'm not sexually attracted to anyone.

Thanks for explaining that. 

 

Quote

...  some of the judgment I see above (I'm reading the idea that, because I enjoy the physical act of sex itself and choose to enjoy that activity with my partner, that I'm NOT asexual at all?) doesn't clarify things either...

... someone can please clarify this?

Different people have different ideas about what is Asexuality. I get the impression you like what @Gldlynch says, so if you want to you can just ignore the rest of us. Just go with what works for you. 🍀

[Gldlynch]

13 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

Different people have different ideas about what is Asexuality. Just go with what works for you. 🍀

That's the tricky thing about explaining asexuality. It's a MASSIVE umbrella term and there's a leniency within the orientation. It's all about how we interpret the understanding. Whilst some aces may have sex, may even like/love sex, and others are completely sex-repulsed, the common ground is that none of us experience direct sexual attraction towards people (:

[Cobie]

On 14-2-2018 at 1:23 PM, Telecaster68 said:

... mentally they're masturbating, even if someone else is involved.

‘Mentally’ yes.  But in ‘reality’ someone else is involved, so they are not masturbating.

(Googled) Masturbation is the sexual stimulation of one's own genitals for sexual arousal or other sexual pleasure, usually to the point of orgasm.

 

Quote

They'd just as soon not have that other person involved, but the other person has the right anatomical construction to get them to orgasm, in pretty much the same way as, say, a vibrator does.

Yes. But although it serves the same purpose, a vibrator is a thing. Another person is a person that provides a set of not ‘one’s own genitals’; and therefore they are no longer masturbating.

 

Quote

... For the asexual, the mental element is exactly the same as masturbation: physical stimulation to reach orgasm, and you can see this reflected in posts not understanding why sexuals aren't content to masturbate rather than have sex, as from an asexual perspective, it achieves the same thing.

Yes, I agree.

 

Quote

The key thing here being that there's no inherent desire for partnered sex, ...

I do not understand. Using another person as a wanking aid is partnered sex, there is a partner present and all are engaged in sexual activity. Aaand back to my first comment in this post 

[Cobie]

On 14/02/2018 at 2:27 PM, Telecaster68 said:

... using someone else as a wanking aid doesn't make someone sexual.

Depends.

Yes, your point is true for a person doing it for ulterior reasons (e.g. an asexual compromising inside a mixed relationship).

But I was talking about a person pursuing it just for their own pleasure. My argument is that they cannot claim to be asexual.