James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Philip027 said: In Bizarro World, maybe. Granted, "didn't love it" can mean a whole slew of different things and not all of those things are necessarily life-threatening, but you bet your ass kids can die as a result of a parent not loving them. Sorry I missed the point there. You think a child can actually die if they don’t feel loved and cherished? I think you maybe confusing ‘physical neglect’ with ‘emotional neglect’. The latter simply results in a mental state as opposed to physical death. Could you provide an example of a way in which a child could die through a lack of love? ....should be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
blue dog Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 after my partner has had her fling she is upbeat and easier to live with. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Telecaster68 said: Actually there are studies of emotionally neglected children in Russian and Romanian orphanages who physically 'failed to thrive', which is the same kind of thing. Exactly my point. Regardless of whether you are an adult or child, emotional neglect will impact your mental well being or make you “cuckoo” as @Philip027 says. Sexual people do experience a feeling of neglect when being deprived of sex. Probably not something an asexual person will be able to relate to just as I can’t relate to the idea of not wanting to have sex with my spouse and just expecting them to live that way. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, blue dog said: after my partner has had her fling she is upbeat and easier to live with. If you were capable of it, do you think your partner would rather choose sex with you you over ‘flings’? Link to post Share on other sites
MrDane Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 17 hours ago, Paneeda said: So I'm new to this community. hello just a question for asexuals living with sexuals, would you be offended if your partner got their needs met elsewhere? Provided he/she didn't lie to cover it up if you asked? Given the lack of interest in sex with your partner, surely they'd get more out of a sexual relationship with someone else? recently I've questioned if this would bother me or not. I've never been sexually possessive in that way. Part of me thinks that if I can't make them happy, then they'd be better off with someone else, but I think that we do make each other happy and if that's what they are missing then I could be open to the idea. crazy? Sometimes I see this version on Aven from asexuals. (Not all, but some): a. Sex is not important to me. b. It is important that my partner does not have sex as something important, either. c. If I say no to sex, then the affect on my partner is is just no sex for them either. this leaves the sexual with the asexual deciding a lot over their sex life and the sexual Loses a bit of autonomy on the altar of monomgamistic partnership. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 41 minutes ago, uhtred said: Yes. And for a sexual person, lack of sex generally results in misery - if maybe not madness. Continual misery over a sustained period will result in depression of some description. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, MrDane said: sexual Loses a bit of autonomy on the altar of monomgamistic partnership. A married couple should make all of their important decisions together. From wedding arrangements, finding a place to live, what size house they rent/buy, how many kids they want, when or where they go on holiday, how they choose to parent, where their children go to school and so on. Sex should be one of those things in the list above. It doesn’t tend to work that way in life and certainly not on Aven. A sexual person loses loses more than just a bit of autonomy. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 17 hours ago, prib23 said: And is there really any such thing as sexual "needs" ? Has anyone ever died of sexual deprivation ? Just questions. I just wanted to answer this question again (with another question). Has anyone, asexual or other, had regular sex when they would prefer no sex and died as a result? Again, answer is obviously no. Link to post Share on other sites
Paneeda Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, uhtred said: A question though - if you love somone, and you believe that for *them* love and sex are tightly intertwined, is it right to try to keep them with you if you know they are missing out on love? Great question, I am really loving this forum. Well I guess you could twist it around and say : is it right for them to try to keep you if they know you are stressed out and unable to live up to their demands? They could just as easily let you go... love and sex was never intertwined for me, I know that it is for my partner though; so he probably does feel neglected at times. I guess the demand for sex in a relationship is always fluctuating as well. Maybe both are worried about living up to the others expectations of reality? Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Paneeda said: Great question, I am really loving this forum. Well I guess you could twist it around and say : is it right for them to try to keep you if they know you are stressed out and unable to live up to their demands? They could just as easily let you go... love and sex was never intertwined for me, I know that it is for my partner though; so he probably does feel neglected at times. I guess the demand for sex in a relationship is always fluctuating as well. Maybe both are worried about living up to the others expectations of reality? The slight issue that tends to cause conflict (especially on Aven) is that it is quite common for people to discover they are not capable of sex after marriage but it never works the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites
Tarfeather Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 20 hours ago, prib23 said: And is there really any such thing as sexual "needs" ? Has anyone ever died of sexual deprivation ? The definition of "need" isn't "something you die without", and I wonder why that mistake is so common here. Merriam-Webster defines "need" as "a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism", and that's definitely what sex is for a lot of people. Link to post Share on other sites
MrDane Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, Tarfeather said: The definition of "need" isn't "something you die without", and I wonder why that mistake is so common here. Merriam-Webster defines "need" as "a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism", and that's definitely what sex is for a lot of people. Thank you, @Tarfeather! I need sex to be fully happy. I can be happy on other levels, but will constantly feel like I am ‘happy, but with a ressonance of lacking something important”. Next step is to define how and how much is going to work for me/us. If other signs of affection, love, caring and reassuring our lifelong couple commitment is present, then the sex-need can be less than if is not present. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 9 hours ago, James121 said: I think if you are refusing to engage in sex full stop and you dismiss the idea of your partner having sex elsewhere, you are pretty selfish in my opinion. The only real exception to that is if the ‘no sex’ status was disclosed and put in place from the word go. Technically, monogamy at all is selfish. And having any requirements on your partner to be with them is selfish. But, humans are by nature selfish. Personally, I see nothing wrong with going "I can't do sex anymore", but I also see nothing wrong with going "Well, then I have to get it elsewhere". Everyone should be free to state their needs and boundaries within their relationships and those needs and boundaries will change with time. As long as they're stated and things aren't done behind their partner's back (with cheating, it's the dishonesty I dislike, not the act). When it's above board, then each person has the choice to leave if the new need or boundary isn't working for them. Which, is fair. In my relationships, I always make it clear if you're really not happy, we shouldn't be together. I don't care what sort of relationship it is. Dating, marriage, whatever. There is simply no point to it, imo, if it isn't enhancing both our lives. When my poly ex in college said he needed poly (he didn't tell me he was poly til a year in...), then we tried and it didn't work cause I'm really just mono. But, I wasn't mad at him. Wasn't his fault he had different needs. And, my ex-spouse (lived together for 10 years) told me he found someone recently that fits his sexual needs perfectly... so yay, good for him. I hope all the issues we had are never present and the anger issues he had never pop up cause of it. I don't really get clinging to something that isn't working and being miserable and mad at each other for it. If my new marriage turns sour, I've already told my fiancee that I expect them to not stick around if they're miserable. I don't want them to. And I don't think they would want me to. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Paneeda said: Great question, I am really loving this forum. Well I guess you could twist it around and say : is it right for them to try to keep you if they know you are stressed out and unable to live up to their demands? They could just as easily let you go... love and sex was never intertwined for me, I know that it is for my partner though; so he probably does feel neglected at times. I guess the demand for sex in a relationship is always fluctuating as well. Maybe both are worried about living up to the others expectations of reality? Yes completely fair. It comes down to whether a mixed relationship can be happy. Sometimes though, as in my case, it isn't symmetric. She is happy (I think) because our relationship is what she wants. I am often not because I have such a limited sex life. A common asymmetry is that the person with lower desire defines a couples sex life, since saying no to sex, or any sex act is (at at least always should be) accepted. I don't see a way around this, I'm not suggesting that people have unwanted sex, but it naturally leads to a power imbalance. One person has complete control of something the other wants, without an equivalent reciprocal control. Link to post Share on other sites
MrDane Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, uhtred said: Yes completely fair. It comes down to whether a mixed relationship can be happy. Sometimes though, as in my case, it isn't symmetric. She is happy (I think) because our relationship is what she wants. I am often not because I have such a limited sex life. A common asymmetry is that the person with lower desire defines a couples sex life, since saying no to sex, or any sex act is (at at least always should be) accepted. I don't see a way around this, I'm not suggesting that people have unwanted sex, but it naturally leads to a power imbalance. One person has complete control of something the other wants, without an equivalent reciprocal control. ...I hate this assymetric balance of power. I dont want her (my partner) to do things she is repulsed by, but I think it is only fair to ask her to keep the deals, the agreements, the outspoken, down written oaths written in blood. I love and respect her. But everytimes she forgets the deal, she forgets about me. Everytime she forgets about me is a strike in the guts to our love. ...perhaps a new deal should be signed and sealed. Perhaps this deal is so different from the other, that it completely annihilates the prior deal? Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Tarfeather said: The definition of "need" isn't "something you die without", and I wonder why that mistake is so common here. Rhetorical convenience. Link to post Share on other sites
Paneeda Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 52 minutes ago, uhtred said: A common asymmetry is that the person with lower desire defines a couples sex life, since saying no to sex, or any sex act is (at at least always should be) accepted. I don't see a way around this, I'm not suggesting that people have unwanted sex, but it naturally leads to a power imbalance. One person has complete control of something the other wants, without an equivalent reciprocal control. Let's say for arguments sake, that your partner would withhold cuddles and affection, in that very same way they could also have 'the control' of something. If I'm not mistaken, many marriages lack intimacy all around - which wasn't part of the 'deal' beforehand. If my partner said no to cuddles, that would be a kind of rejection too. I guess what I mean to say is that relationships can never be completly balanced, but the thing I'm after here is to find out how to restore that asymmetry. If you didn't get enough cuddles would you ask for more cuddles? Or maybe learn to live with only the occasional cuddle? Or would you look for cuddles elsewhere? Im trying to think of a better equivalent but cuddles was all I could come up with 😁 Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Paneeda said: Let's say for arguments sake, that your partner would withhold cuddles and affection, in that very same way they could also have 'the control' of something. If I'm not mistaken, many marriages lack intimacy all around - which wasn't part of the 'deal' beforehand. If my partner said no to cuddles, that would be a kind of rejection too. I guess what I mean to say is that relationships can never be completly balanced, but the thing I'm after here is to find out how to restore that asymmetry. If you didn't get enough cuddles would you ask for more cuddles? Or maybe learn to live with only the occasional cuddle? Or would you look for cuddles elsewhere? Im trying to think of a better equivalent but cuddles was all I could come up with 😁 I think "cuddles" are a little to close to "sex" to be really distinct. If for some reason I didn't want to cuddle my spouse, her getting cuddles somewhere else is for most people very similar to her getting sex somewhere else - its still intimate. But maybe cuddles does help illustrate the issue. My wife likes cuddles, so do I so she gets cuddles. She likes kissing, so do I so she gets kisses. There are no intimate things that she enjoys that I don't, so she gets what she wants, while I don't. Other parts of lives are difficult to map onto sex. We both do chores, but that is different. We each spend time engaging in each others hobbies - but again different. There is this one big asymmetry in an otherwise symmetric relationship. This is because sex is sort of "special". Unlike pretty much everything else, it is generally agreed that if you don't enjoy sex, you shouldn't engage in sex. Its *different* from my going to jazz concerts with her even though I don't like jazz. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, uhtred said: Sometimes though, as in my case, it isn't symmetric. She is happy (I think) because our relationship is what she wants. I am often not because I have such a limited sex life. My question in this situation is, how can she be happy if she knows the relationship isn't what you want? I'm not saying she should have to give you sex or anything, but I always find it odd when I see sexual partners on AVEN saying they are pretty sure their ace partner is happy due to being allowed to be celibate. When I was 'functionally asexual' (meaning, I had no desire for or enjoyment of partnered sex, but still desired love and romance) I gave my sexual ex partner sex twice a day, every single day, and I STILL felt tremendous guilt knowing it wasn't actually what he wants (because obviously he wanted me to want the sex as much as he could, and I just couldn't make myself want it, ever). I was very, very angry at myself for not being able to be 'good enough' and for being so 'broken' that I couldn't just want sex like any normal person so I could make my partner happy. None of my needs were being met in any way (he wouldn't even make me a coffee every now and then! and sex was tremendously painful for me which he knew but didn't care about) yet that didn't stop me hating myself and feeling like I was the bad guy. I've seen many aces on AVEN who have had (or are in) sexual relationships expressing the same kind of pain and frustration at themselves, and deep guilt for what their partner is missing out on (even if they're giving that partner sex). I just can't wrap my head around the concept of someone getting the exact relationship that they want while knowing their partner is missing out on something integral to their happiness in a relationship, and the one who's getting what they want still being able to be happy?? And on the flip-side, would you be happy if you were having sex with her every day even though you knew it made her unhappy? Probably not!! How can someone be happy if they know their partner has to sacrifice their own happiness to create that happiness in the other person? And that question is regardless of whether or not the happy one is the ace or the sexual. Makes no sense to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Paneeda Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, uhtred said: This is because sex is sort of "special". Unlike pretty much everything else, it is generally agreed that if you don't enjoy sex, you shouldn't engage in sex. Its *different* from my going to jazz concerts with her even though I don't like jazz. Yeah maybe that's why I struggle to find an equivalent example. It's unique. If there were an equivalent I would suggest doing that instead of having sex LOL. Why is it unique? Because sex is intertwined with sexuality which is personal, vulnerable, shameful (?), powerless, fragile, messy, uncomfortable, critical, wanting to please (?) fearful..or at the very least confused.. Imperfect mess. Sex in itself is just a psychical act like swimming or golfing. So if there were a way to have sex without sharing my sexuality...hmmm Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, FictoVore. said: I just can't wrap my head around the concept of someone getting the exact relationship that they want while knowing their partner is missing out on something integral to their happiness in a relationship, and the one who's getting what they want still being able to be happy?? And on the flip-side, would you be happy if you were having sex with her every day even though you knew it made her unhappy? Probably not!! How can someone be happy if they know their partner has to sacrifice their own happiness to create that happiness in the other person? And that question is regardless of whether or not the happy one is the ace or the sexual. Makes no sense to me. Just like I don't escalate hugs into sex out of consideration, you compromised as much as you could. Not everyone's as perfect as us.... Link to post Share on other sites
Wild Seven Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 6 hours ago, James121 said: You think a child can actually die if they don’t feel loved and cherished? Yes. It's basic developmental psychology, too. Children can, and DO, die, if unloved by their caregiver. Whether directly - as in physical neglect - or failure to thrive, to 'just' emotional neglect. It's a thing. Educate yourself on it. Link to post Share on other sites
Wild Seven Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 As to sexuality and what not (and can we please not mix up child development into these sorts of discussions, they're different animals altogether, people do not die of unmet sexual needs, children can and do die because of unmet contact needs, one isn't like the other even remotely) - It'd entirely depent on the relationship in question and arrangements of. I'm fine with my partner(s) being poly, themselves. But I need the other relationships not be cheating, and not be exploiting me and/or an instrument of abuse. Which is where drawing the lines gets damned tricky. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Unmet sexual needs in a relationship almost always lead to the sexual partner getting depressed, which has risks to physical health, in the most extreme case, self harm. So it's not nothing just because it's not directly life threatening. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 hours ago, James121 said: Could you provide an example of a way in which a child could die through a lack of love? 17 minutes ago, Wild Seven said: Children can, and DO, die, if unloved by their caregiver. I just have to clarify here that it's not just 'lack of the emotion of love' that kills a child. Someone can not love a kid, yet still feed it, bathe it, clothe it, teach it etc.. a child will NOT die when cared for properly even if they're not 'loved'. My mum got stuck with a dog she didn't like once and the dog still lived 17 years because she cared for it properly out of a sense of duty, someone could do the same for a child and it would survive. Just as sometimes a child that is loved can still die if the parent DOESN'T care for it properly. Say for example the parent has addiction issues and often spends the money on drugs instead of food. The parent might still have an emotion of love for the kid, but they're not caring for it properly and it may die if continuously unfed and un-cared for. So it's not the emotion of love that counts, it's how you care for the child and how much affection you show it (in the form of physically doing things that help it thrive) regardless of whether or not you 'love' it. 10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: Unmet sexual needs in a relationship almost always lead to the sexual partner getting depressed, which has risks to physical health, in the most extreme case, self harm. So it's not nothing just because it's not directly life threatening. On the flip-side someone who is having sex they don't want with their partner to try to keep the partner happy can also end up depressed and even suicidal, because having sex when you don't want it (whether you're a man or a woman) can be extremely physically and emotionally draining, and can actually leave you feeling violated and used if you have to do it often enough. So it's still not 'nothing' from that perspective either. I just want to point this out in case inexperienced asexuals are reading this and starting to think that if they get into a sexual relationship, they'll HAVE to have sex so their partner doesn't become suicidal - it can be just as painful for the ace to have to have sex as it can be for the sexual going without it. I hate sounding like I'm arguing with you today Tele, there just seems to be a lot of quite extreme comments going around on both sides today which is probably working everyone up! Regarding the topic at hand, if an asexual is monogamous and deeply in love with their sexual partner, yet feels deeply, deeply unhappy when having to have sex, then if their partner went and had sex with someone else to meet their needs you're still left with a deeply unhappy asexual either way. If the partner doesn't have sex with anyone else (or their ace partner), then you're left with a deeply unhappy sexual. This is WHY accurate asexuality visibility and education is so important though. The more people who know about 'real' asexuality (not the non-existent sex-loving kind) the less chance they have of ending up in this situation!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 It's fine. You're not arguing, just putting the other side. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 32 minutes ago, Paneeda said: Yeah maybe that's why I struggle to find an equivalent example. It's unique. If there were an equivalent I would suggest doing that instead of having sex LOL. Why is it unique? Because sex is intertwined with sexuality which is personal, vulnerable, shameful (?), powerless, fragile, messy, uncomfortable, critical, wanting to please (?) fearful..or at the very least confused.. Imperfect mess. Sex in itself is just a psychical act like swimming or golfing. So if there were a way to have sex without sharing my sexuality...hmmm This is a central problem with all these discussions. I've also struggled to find something equivalent and there just isn't. Whats worse, sex means very different things to different people and the conversations get even more difficult. On thought I sometimes have: maybe it isn't really different. Have we just socially conditioned ourselves to *think* sex is different from everything else? Could (should?) people get into a mindset where sex is just another thing people do? Or is sex just wired differently in human brains in a way that makes it unlike anything else? Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 40 minutes ago, FictoVore. said: On the flip-side someone who is having sex they don't want with their partner to try to keep the partner happy can also end up depressed and even suicidal, That’s the point I was making. It’s been mentioned before on this forum “not having sex won’t kill them” and comments or questions like that. But when you really look at it, having sex you don’t want won’t kill you. The result will likely be the same so I just wonder why the question or statement is still asked/made. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 40 minutes ago, Wild Seven said: Yes. It's basic developmental psychology, too. Children can, and DO, die, if unloved by their caregiver. Whether directly - as in physical neglect - or failure to thrive, to 'just' emotional neglect. It's a thing. Educate yourself on it. Ok for one you are a little abrupt there. Actually rude. Two - children don’t ‘die’ when they aren’t loved. They die when neglected as a result of that lack of love. Let me repeat that in case you didn’t get it. They would die as a result of the neglect that results from the lack of love. If you die “indirectly” as you put it, then we can safely say that a sexual person could also die as a result of no sex. Its a thing. Educate yourself on it. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Serran said: Personally, I see nothing wrong with going "I can't do sex anymore", Neither can if it is followed with “I’m so sorry, I’m the person who changed so tell me the terms of the divorce and show me where to sign”. Link to post Share on other sites
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