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Telecaster68

List different kinds of sex (All the TMI, hopefully...)

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, Jade Cross said:

You cannot convey emotions

Well that's all of Art told. 

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Chimeric

For the same reason that I'm here to understand my ace partner, I thought it would be a nice effort to offer my perspective to the ace community. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just trying to offer another voice that runs a bit counter to what the mainstream generally has to say. 

 

It's not a campaign, I don't want to chide everyone who talks about sex in sheerly physical terms, I don't want to bare my emotional connection to my person to the general world - but I do want to contribute my understanding of things to this niche community that's done so much to help teach me. 

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Jade Cross
1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

Sorry, Jade, I'm not understanding where this is coming from. When I read the things that sexual members of AVEN have to say, as well as my friends in other realms of life, I find that I'm better able to put myself in their shoes, even though I don't feel that way on my own. Reading things like how sex after a fight feels different from sex after a romantic dinner on the couple's anniversary provides context for things that asexual people won't directly experience. Asexual people don't need to say "I experience the same thing" for this to be a relevant conversation to have for asexual and sexual people alike. What they may say is "That's interesting, and gives me a better understanding of how sex means more things than just fitting objects into other objects." Asexual people can benefit from that, and it will help promote the understanding that asexual people aren't weird or messed up - they just don't experience the same things.

I guess I'll be the odd one out as Im not able to put myself in others shoes. My mind simply doesnt work that way for better or worse. Sorry I stepped in this. I'll remember to avoid it in future occasions

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Chimeric
3 hours ago, Jade Cross said:

I guess I'll be the odd one out as Im not able to put myself in others shoes. My mind simply doesnt work that way for better or worse. Sorry I stepped in this. I'll remember to avoid it in future occasions

It's okay Jade, your perspective is just as valuable as anybody else's here. The more we get to talk about things, the better we can understand each other.

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Jade Cross
17 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well that's all of Art told. 

Allright, I'll rephrase it. You cannot make others feel your emotions.  

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Jade Cross
13 hours ago, Chimeric said:

It's okay Jade, your perspective is just as valuable as anybody else's here. The more we get to talk about things, the better we can understand each other.

I dont think my perspective will offer any discernible changes, at least with regards to the views of sex. I cant feel the same emotions and neither can I understand them.

 

To me sex is just a physical activity no different than a sport. Even if I take whats been said here as a truth, it will always clash with the reality of what I see. Not so much because I want to see it as such but because thats what the evidence suggest, sort of like Newtons cradle.

 

If you never pull on the strings, it will never move, likewise if you pull it and expect to stop, it wont stop because the same energy thats being used to cause or not cause the action is being repeated back at the entity who makes the decision. The cradle isnt aiming to piss off the entity, its just reflecting back the same energy without any discrimination.

 

I know I'll be told again that I cant compare a mathematical equation to a human but thats sort of how my mind is able to grasp things for the most part. Dont think anyone is looking for a math problem in sex though.

 

 

 

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Telecaster68
34 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

Allright, I'll rephrase it. You cannot make others feel your emotions.  

Actually, you can, at least in principle. That's pretty much what mirror neurons do.

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Jade Cross
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Actually, you can, at least in principle. That's pretty much what mirror neurons do.

Elaborate

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Telecaster68

When we (and most higher order mammals) watch something, or read about, the same parts of our brains activate as if we were actually doing it. They first noticed this in Barbary apes watching some scientists eat, during a lunchbreak, and the apes were had their brains wired up. That's why we get so immersed in films; novels work as well.

 

This is from wikipedia, but it's basically right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

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GLRDT
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Actually, you can, at least in principle. That's pretty much what mirror neurons do.

I feel like you can feel the energy coming off of someone and in that way feel, empathize, and absorb those feelings, but they can't make you relate and truly understand those emotions. You can just feel the emotion, you can connect the why in your mind, but not the why in your heart unless you've lived through it.

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Thea2
10 minutes ago, GLRDT said:

I feel like you can feel the energy coming off of someone and in that way feel, empathize, and absorb those feelings ...

I find this interesting, so I hope someone will respond to this (I've been told that emotionally speaking I'm a newt, so I'm keeping stum :ph34r: ).

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, GLRDT said:

I feel like you can feel the energy coming off of someone and in that way feel, empathize, and absorb those feelings, but they can't make you relate and truly understand those emotions. You can just feel the emotion, you can connect the why in your mind, but not the why in your heart unless you've lived through it.

Yeah, it's something like that. You know when you're deeply involved in a film or book so you're immersed in the world, and you get the physiological responses like fear, or happiness, or tension as though you were in the scene? It's that, basically.

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Snao Cone
1 hour ago, GLRDT said:

I feel like you can feel the energy coming off of someone and in that way feel, empathize, and absorb those feelings, but they can't make you relate and truly understand those emotions. You can just feel the emotion, you can connect the why in your mind, but not the why in your heart unless you've lived through it.

 

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Yeah, it's something like that. You know when you're deeply involved in a film or book so you're immersed in the world, and you get the physiological responses like fear, or happiness, or tension as though you were in the scene? It's that, basically.

This is part of why it took me so long to identify as asexual. It didn't seem necessarily foreign to me because I could understand it from an audience's perspective. It just took putting myself in real life situations to realize I did not understand how it directly felt to have that deep motivation to express towards another person, and I probably never would.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Snao Cone said:

It didn't seem necessarily foreign to me because I could understand it from an audience's perspective. It just took putting myself in real life situations to realize I did not understand how it directly felt to have that deep motivation to express towards another person, and I probably never would.

So you were kind of having the 'mirror' reaction to something you didn't get directly? Interesting.

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Jade Cross
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

When we (and most higher order mammals) watch something, or read about, the same parts of our brains activate as if we were actually doing it. They first noticed this in Barbary apes watching some scientists eat, during a lunchbreak, and the apes were had their brains wired up. That's why we get so immersed in films; novels work as well.

 

This is from wikipedia, but it's basically right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

I meant to elaborate on how the principle of the mirror neurons could be applied here. For instance as an ace what or how would the neurons work if I do not participate in the activity myself?

 

I can certainly see someone else having sex (porn, very bad example I know but hey Im not going to be a voyeur or however its called) but that doesn't  mean that I myself will be motivated to do it. In fact quite the opposite really.

 

 

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Telecaster68
15 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

For instance as an ace what or how would the neurons work if I do not participate in the activity myself?

It was a response to your assertion that we can't communicate emotion, or feel something that somebody else is feeling. We demonstrably can, or at least our own version of it (like fear, happiness, tension etc.)

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GLRDT
38 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

This is part of why it took me so long to identify as asexual. It didn't seem necessarily foreign to me because I could understand it from an audience's perspective. It just took putting myself in real life situations to realize I did not understand how it directly felt to have that deep motivation to express towards another person, and I probably never would.

I didn't realize this until I read this just now but holy crap me too. Thank you. I find myself agreeing with asexual and sexual people on this site when they make good points not because I'm gray asexual but because of my ability to put myself in other people's shoes and empathize deeply with their perspectives. Of course that makes sense when it comes to sex. I still want to feel that desire and passion I don't have because I can feel that sexual people think it's amazing and a super connected way to communicate, but it doesn't mean I can. That explains why growing up that was confusing to me as well. Thank you for posting! Really great phrasing!

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SecondMoon
8 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Actually, you can, at least in principle. That's pretty much what mirror neurons do.

I would argue the point that mirror neurons are only mirroring observable phenomena; since people have subjective responses to what they observe, emotional experiences could very possibly be far off the mark of what the person being observed is experiencing. True, the same could probably be said for actions that one has no experience with (e.g. if I have never ridden a bike, how accurately are the actions involved in peddling, balancing, steering, etc going to be represented at the neuronal level?); there's a certain level of guesswork there. I think in the realm of emotions, though, this kind of guesswork is amplified and may not even occur. An example for that might be watching people laughing and clapping. I might casually see and hear that and experience a mirroring of those actions in the brain which then produces a certain degree of merriment within me. Cool. But let's say I'm observing people laughing and clapping along to something that I find asinine. I still might have those mirror neurons firing along to the clapping and cheering ('cause that's just what they do), but I'm personally likely to feel the exact opposite of merriment--like I want to leave the room. Possibly the planet. So, it could work in the way that you're saying, but there can also be dramatically different results depending on the context. I think mirror neurons are relevant in the process of empathy and emotional understanding, but are much better, in terms of accuracy and precision, for helping you mimic motor activities than they are for mirroring emotions.

 

So there was a side note.

 

On topic, I also wanted to throw in that I prefer the idea of listing reasons for sex rather than naming types; it seems to more effectively convey that people may have multiple reasons at one time. This is probably the #1 most common type of sex: Eh, Plenty of Reasons Sex.

 

Example: if you have a partner whose been gone for a while and work has been really tough on you during that period, you might have Domestic Missed you Refuge Sex when they return. Hey, and maybe you were also bored when they walked in the door. Etcetera...

 

I also didn't see anyone say Curiosity Sex, so I'm going to throw curiosity in as a potential reason: one may wonder what sex is like with a particular person, or a particular type of person, or in a particular environment, or just generally if you don't have any or much experience having sex... Plenty of situations to be curious about.

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Jade Cross

Following the train of thought from SecondMoon I wonder if pressure sex or Fit in sex (no pun intended) could be considered as many aces do go through with that.

 

Also with regards to the mirror neurons, (I know I said I wouldn't get involved but science was thrown in the mix, and behavioural science at that) I have to also agree, partly why I asked in the first place too. The miror newroms dont quite explain a possible reaction from a subject you dont have an emotional involvment to begin with. 

 

For instance, I can really get into a good book, and my mind will have no trouble creating the scenarios and play by play of a story.

 

But say I attend a political meeting and up goes the candidate in their usual: "I promise you, that I will work hard to help the people, because im promising on this day to do that. And I promise that I will keep that promise" and you have a 45 min long "I promise you" session which gives no no substancial message,  which upon ending everyone starts clapping like trained circus seals and all I get is an eye twitch and thinking "how can these people be so f**_ing stupid?". The mirror neuron theory doesnt hold up in that so Im thinking you must have a pre-existing attachment to the iddal for it to take any effect. Or so thats how it would appear.

 

 

 

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, SecondMoon said:

I would argue the point that mirror neurons are only mirroring observable phenomena; since people have subjective responses to what they observe, emotional experiences could very possibly be far off the mark of what the person being observed is experiencing. True, the same could probably be said for actions that one has no experience with (e.g. if I have never ridden a bike, how accurately are the actions involved in peddling, balancing, steering, etc going to be represented at the neuronal level?); there's a certain level of guesswork there. I think in the realm of emotions, though, this kind of guesswork is amplified and may not even occur. An example for that might be watching people laughing and clapping. I might casually see and hear that and experience a mirroring of those actions in the brain which then produces a certain degree of merriment within me. Cool. But let's say I'm observing people laughing and clapping along to something that I find asinine. I still might have those mirror neurons firing along to the clapping and cheering ('cause that's just what they do), but I'm personally likely to feel the exact opposite of merriment--like I want to leave the room. Possibly the planet. So, it could work in the way that you're saying, but there can also be dramatically different results depending on the context. I think mirror neurons are relevant in the process of empathy and emotional understanding, but are much better, in terms of accuracy and precision, for helping you mimic motor activities than they are for mirroring emotions.

Yeah, their exact effect is still being debated, as per that Wiki article, and it's clearly not an automatic, continuous thing. But stories, especially, are constructed to maximise that effect, it seems, and we all know the feeling of being immersed and affected by them, and that was my original point - it is possible to make someone feel an equivalent emotion. I'm not claiming any more than that.

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Serran
On 1/23/2018 at 6:29 AM, Jade Cross said:

This is the key phrase and the reason many aces dont really get why the same thing they hear from people ultimately bugs people when repeated back at them. 

 

Its what they hear from peers, from friends, etc. I have never heard anyone outside Aven generally talk about sex in any other form (unless medical) other than the "gotta get some".

 

That seems to be the only socially acceptable way to talk about sex because if you try to have a serious discussion about it,  suddenly everyone loses their minds and everything has to remain hush-hush.

 

 

 

 

Hmm.

 

I've certainly heard a lot of the casual sex talk, but I've also heard about the personal stuff. Not a lot of people are going to pour their hearts out to people, which discussing how they bond emotionally via sex is kind of doing that. But, things like a girl at my college made a replica of her boyfriend's genitals when he was shipped out to Iraq for a year, it wasn't because his are the best kind of toy she could get, but because of the emotional connection and wanting to feel still connected to him while he was gone. There is often an implied message of the emotional value of things. But, even in popular media like Friends, they touch on how things are different when you feel for someone vs just casual hookups. And it's a common theme in romcoms that the "bad boy player" starts to feel all "sappy" for a girl when he falls for her and even sex changes for him. 

 

It's not often gone into detail with though, granted. Cause it's assumed that everyone has experienced it themselves, so they know what it's like. 

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Jade Cross
1 hour ago, Serran said:

 

It's not often gone into detail with though, granted. Cause it's assumed that everyone has experienced it themselves, so they know what it's like. 

Thats the problem. But anyways, thats already been discussed more or less. Im not the best ace to engage in these conversations but I suspect so long as this particular mindset remains, sexuals will continue to stumble upon aces who will only think of sex in the misconstrued way it is socially presented and later failed to be corrected.

 

Its not done out of spite but I suppose that will not really matter as it will tend to generate the same frustrating cycle for aces and sexuals alike.

 

I think the only way to avoid the cycle is to avoid  any large amount of time around others . At least thats what has worked for me in real life. No involvement = no opportunity for sex talks = being able to avoid  being caught in this cycle or as it tends to happen, being interrogated because its simply doesnt seem to be enough for some people (refering to some in life experiences) to hear that you're not interested, they also demand to know and then get frustrated or worse if they dont get the answer or the answer doesnt satisfy them.

 

so again, avoid people and you (or at least I) avoid unnecessary trouble over something that will make no discernable difference in my life.

 

 

 

 

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GLRDT
5 hours ago, SecondMoon said:

 

I also didn't see anyone say Curiosity Sex, so I'm going to throw curiosity in as a potential reason: one may wonder what sex is like with a particular person, or a particular type of person, or in a particular environment, or just generally if you don't have any or much experience having sex... Plenty of situations to be curious about

I only ever have curiosity sex unless I'm in a committed relationship, then I do it for my partner as a compromise. Curiosity sex replaces my lack of desire for sex, thus the gray asexualness.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
11 hours ago, GLRDT said:

I only ever have curiosity sex unless I'm in a committed relationship, then I do it for my partner as a compromise. Curiosity sex replaces my lack of desire for sex, thus the gray asexualness.

out of interest, what do you mean by 'curiosity sex' in this instance, when you say it replaces your lack of desire for sex? 

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GLRDT
6 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

out of interest, what do you mean by 'curiosity sex' in this instance, when you say it replaces your lack of desire for sex? 

I mean I never yearn or crave to have sex. I've never needed or had a strong desire for it in that way. However, the few times in my life where the attraction was more than aesthetic and maybe into the realm of sexual attraction (still not really sure what sexual attraction feels like, I just know with three guys before I've felt something different or more) with those guys, I've been more curious about what it would be like in a I wonder if it will actually be passionate or lustful with them and there will be more desire kind of sense since I feel more attracted than usual. Also I'm very curious in general learning about people in all ways and having sex with someone can be a way to learn about them in another way. I'm also sensual and like being physically close to people I at least find aesthetically pleasing and then if they have that extra boost I become more curious about sex, but at the same time if I never had sex with them I'd be perfectly fine. Does that make sense? Or did I thoroughly confuse you with my rambling?

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Thea2
On 24/01/2018 at 5:21 PM, GLRDT said:

I feel like you can feel the energy coming off of someone and in that way feel, empathize, and absorb those feelings ...

When observing some people IRL, this is my experience too.

 

On 24/01/2018 at 4:31 PM, Telecaster68 said:

When we (and most higher order mammals) watch something, or read about, the same parts of our brains activate as if we were actually doing it ...

 

On 24/01/2018 at 7:05 PM, Telecaster68 said:

... when you're deeply involved in a film or book so you're immersed in the world, and you get the physiological responses like fear, or happiness, or tension as though you were in the scene ...

Some movies portray that watching a movie (e.g. the Ring) or reading a book (e.g. the Ninth gate) conjures up an actual entity.

 

This is how I understand what you say: First there’s the input from the 5 senses; then the working of the mirror neurons on that input, creates the energy inside me. I.e. the energy is my own feelings. And, there is NOT created an actual physical energy in the external world outside of me. Correct?

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Telecaster68

I have no view on 'energy' as some kind of almost spiritual thing as you guys seem to be talking about it. I'm just talking about neurons, but since they make up our brain which is how we experience the world, what we experience is a function of neural activity. An emergent property, if you like.

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Chimeric

Energy is neither created nor destroyed, but our measly little brains are super good at making things up. :lol:

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Jade Cross

I have hallucinated things such as the girl from the ring. Usually this comes as a result of extreme exhaustion or stress to which I can assume its a correlation between myself and the character. It lasts metely a second or so before I realize its just a figment of my imagination. It does produce the momentarily sense of fear that rhe character originally was designed to do. Still there is already a pre existing ideal to correlate with the character.

 

 

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Thea2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

I have no view on 'energy' as some kind of almost spiritual thing ...

Puts in mind my problems with ‘sexual attraction’  :lol: 

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