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Telecaster68

List different kinds of sex (All the TMI, hopefully...)

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NoLongerActive1234
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Yeah, that's exactly what it was, and the poster in question had to be humoured, since this is AVEN and her status as 'virgin' shouldn't be invalidated.

That sounds perfectly valid to me...much nicer when people aren't jerks I think. If she wasn't saying everyone else in the Universe would have to call it not being sex if they were in the same position then why not support her in if that helps her out out in her personal situation. That's her business and it doesn't have to do with sex as thing. 

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Telecaster68

It makes utter nonsense of the word virginity though. 

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NoLongerActive1234
8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It makes utter nonsense of the word virginity though. 

Who cares? You can't make people stick to something just because it bugs you how they use a word. You can tell me 20 million times my first kiss was technically a kiss but it still won't ever be seen like that to me on an emotional level. So to her in an emotional way she sees herself as a virgin probably. That might be helpful for her in her mental space. I see no harm to that at all because it is a personal matter. I would support her thinking of herself that way if it is helpful to her and makes her feel better...because that matters much more to me than this specifical individual chosing to, just for her, to call herself a virgin. It doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of virgin in a dictionary. She's not making a political statment about changing its meaning....not everything has to do with that.

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Telecaster68
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Who cares? You can't make people stick to something just because it bugs you how they use a word.

I do. If we suddenly change the word to mean the direct opposite of what everyone else in the world understands from it - that  you can have had PIV sex and still be a virgin, you can't communicate. Shared definitions of sounds pretty much defines what language is. It's not politics, it's basic ability to communicate.

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NoLongerActive1234
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I do. If we suddenly change the word to mean the direct opposite of what everyone else in the world understands from it - that  you can have had PIV sex and still be a virgin, you can't communicate. Shared definitions of sounds pretty much defines what language is. It's not politics, it's basic ability to communicate.

You have no idea how someone is going to use it, who says she will communicate to another person about it other than it having a special meaning to herself? What you describe sounds much like a dictatorship in trying to mold everyone into being the same way and using things in appropriate ways. The question is who gets to decide what is appropriate way to use a word/meaning? It's a free world...someone can call themselves a Banana if they feel like it. Heck I call myself MistySpring here even though I am not a season and I'm pretty sure you're not actually a Telecaster. Don't start making it as if words needs to be kept within their tightly defined box because just look around you and you'll find that we're already way past that.
People mean more than words...Communication of humans won't collapse if some people conceptually or on emotional levels use words differently. There is no need to be so paniced about it. It's better that people are happy than unhappy, and can progress in life. No matter how absurd, insane or ridiculous and unrelatable you might find it to be perhaps you can entertain the possibility that they are using a word differently for a valid reason. 

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Telecaster68
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You have no idea how someone is going to use it, who says she will communicate to another person about it other than it having a special meaning to herself?

She was definitely trying to us it on AVEN, so yes, she was using it to communicate with people and arguing that other people should accept it.

 

It's not even picking a random word to re-assign, it's redefining a word to mean its exact opposite, which is what IngSoc does in 1984. 
 

Quote

 

The question is who gets to decide what is appropriate way to use a word/meaning? 


 

People reach a consensus. That's what learning a language is. If one person arbitrarily changes it, and someone else does too, to what they decide it should mean, and then everyone else picks their own meanings too, nobody has the faintest idea what anyone else means, and there is no communication.

 

Quote

Communication of humans won't collapse if some people conceptually or on emotional levels use words differently

Mango pig pogo-stick wetsuit singing tralala Orpheus.

 

I hope that's a comprehensible response. I knew exactly what I meant.

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GLRDT
On 1/15/2018 at 8:30 AM, Serran said:

The god I love you so much sex - Those rare but good moments when the person you're with has done something so absolutely wonderful that it causes a rush of emotions that you are just overwhelmed by. Can be saying something, a great conversation together, a dance, being particularly supportive about something. Often expressed through physical affection, because words just aren't enough. Intense, but gentle. Lots of cuddling and maybe talking after. 

Ha ha for me I would use your exact same definition but with a change in title. For me it would be entitled The God I Love You So Much Let's Cuddle A Lot And Sensually Touch Each Other.

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NoLongerActive1234
27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

She was definitely trying to us it on AVEN, so yes, she was using it to communicate with people and arguing that other people should accept it.

I don't know exactly how she was using it since I don't know which thing you're refering to but if it is just that she wanted others to accept her personally using the word in her own way, for herself, then I disagree with you...that's totally acceptable to wish for, to not have others point out that she shouldn't use it. It's totally unnecessary and insulting to do. 
Maybe you just aren't able to understand this, as I am sure you haven't experienced it of wanting to use a word in such a way. Yet you get annoyed at asexuals who cannot fathom why someone would struggle not having sex and seemingly wanting them to trust that you know what you're doing...Quid pro quo dude.

27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

It's not even picking a random word to re-assign, it's redefining a word to mean its exact opposite, which is what IngSoc does in 1984. 
 

People reach a consensus. That's what learning a language is. If one person arbitrarily changes it, and someone else does too, to what they decide it should mean, and then everyone else picks their own meanings too, nobody has the faintest idea what anyone else means, and there is no communication.

All I can say is I do not at all see it as black and white as you do, it does not have to be either or. You can use words for communication between humans or as having words mean something to yourself personally. I'm sure there is even more meanings to words than what we have mentioned as well.

27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Mango pig pogo-stick wetsuit singing tralala Orpheus.

 

I hope that's a comprehensible response. I knew exactly what I meant.

LOL now I am hungry. I don't care if I don't get what you meant, it meant something to you so that's bueno. Besides I don't think you were actually wanting to communicate anything with those exact words to me other than making a hint to prove a point. I read that loud and clear btw even if I still don't agree. 

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roland.o
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

It makes utter nonsense of the word virginity though. 

For those who can read french, here's a comment on the topic:

http://www.lemonde.fr/m-perso/article/2016/12/31/vierges-un-jour-vierges-toujours_5055953_4497916.html

 

She basically says that there are so many ways in which one can be virgin, that we all are, to some degree ;-) :cake:

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Yurilover
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

The nearest I've seen was in a discussion of losing your virginity, and whether oral/anal/handjobs counted. Being AVEN, there was a school of thought that even having PIV didn't count as losing your virginity if you didn't feel like it should...

 

By that chart, you could be naked with someone in the same room as you, clothed, with  headset on gaming and ignoring you entirely, and if you felt like you were having sex, you're having sex. So not great.

To be fair and give context the chart was made under "How to Have Lesbian Sex For the First Time".

 https://www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-lesbian-sex-for-the-first-time-nsfw-sunday-special-120445/ (TMI, NSFW)

 

So no I don't think the creators of the chart, nor I, count your scenario as sex. Thou, if a vibrator was strap to their private (only one person or both) I would give it some wiggle room. Depending on what was agreed upon by both parties.

 

 I'm not really sure what you were saying but were you implying that only asexual ppl ask or don't define oral/anal/fingering/handjob as sex? From my experience that's not true. A lot of sexual ppl don't define anything that doesn't involve a penis being inserted in the vagina or anus as sex. Don't forget the "Catholic loophole" I guess you could say only gullible women did this, but I know of men who genuinely think if it's not PIV it isn't sex. Not to mention when it comes to lesbian sex if penetration isn't involve a lot of ppl (mainly heterosexual) think it isn't really sex.

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Telecaster68
22 minutes ago, Yurilover said:

 I'm not really sure what you were saying but were you implying that only asexual ppl ask or don't define oral/anal/fingering/handjob as sex? From my experience that's not true. A lot of sexual ppl don't define anything that doesn't involve a penis being inserted in the vagina or anus as sex. Don't forget the "Catholic loophole" I guess you could say only gullible women did this, but I know of men who genuinely think if it's not PIV it isn't sex. Not to mention when it comes to lesbian sex if penetration isn't involve a lot of ppl (mainly heterosexual) think it isn't really sex.

I was just saying the definition of virginity was being discussed.

 

22 minutes ago, Yurilover said:

So no I don't think the creators of the chart, nor I, count your scenario as sex.

But according to their flowchart, it would be.

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Telecaster68
33 minutes ago, roland.o said:

For those who can read french, here's a comment on the topic:

http://www.lemonde.fr/m-perso/article/2016/12/31/vierges-un-jour-vierges-toujours_5055953_4497916.html

 

She basically says that there are so many ways in which one can be virgin, that we all are, to some degree ;-) :cake:

Yes, but she's French.

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GLRDT

Clothes on sex! I haven't tried that though. I guess people would do this if they are self conscious about their bodies or on a more positive note, it may be exciting to have sex while a woman is wearing a skirt or dress or something and heels? This might change it up. Or maybe people do this to be discreet in public (which would kind of freak me out). Or maybe they're just in such a hurry they don't want to bother fully taking off all their clothes.

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Telecaster68

... or probably more often, they're too impatient to waste time undressing.

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Serran
2 hours ago, GLRDT said:

Clothes on sex! I haven't tried that though. I guess people would do this if they are self conscious about their bodies or on a more positive note, it may be exciting to have sex while a woman is wearing a skirt or dress or something and heels? This might change it up. Or maybe people do this to be discreet in public (which would kind of freak me out). Or maybe they're just in such a hurry they don't want to bother fully taking off all their clothes.

My ex refused to remove his shirt during sex cause he didn't like his chest. 

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Yurilover
24 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I was just saying the definition of virginity was being discussed.

 

Oh but I guess my point would still stand. That asexuals are not the only set of ppl who have that discussion. I imagine if you don't define it as sex then you will probably say (depending on the activity) you're still a virgin. The last time I was at a doctor she gasp quite loudly with "OMG you're still a virgin?" When she tried to insert a speculum and I was feeling some discomfort. I told her I'm not a virgin and list all the sexual activities I have done. She still file it under being a virgin due to not having PIV and that's a sexual woman who's a doctor.

(If misunderstood what you're saying I'm sorry).

 

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

But according to their flowchart, it would be.

I suppose. Though I did say the chart was made under how to have sex (lesbian sex). For me the chart does indicate some physical contact has to be happening not necessarily genitals. I guess what I take from the chart (left hand side) is: if you and another person came together to excite or fulfill a sexual desire(both or one) and you're nude(semi-nude) you're probably having sex. I have seen more tame scenario than the one you describe considered to be sexually charged for persons with certain fetishes and kinks. It doesn't work for me tho.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, Yurilover said:

I told her I'm not a virgin and list all the sexual activities I have done. She still file it under being a virgin due to not having PIV and that's a sexual woman who's a doctor.

Well technically you are. Virgin's generally taken to mean 'hasn't had penetrative sex', and mostly PIV at that. AVEN posters seem to want it to  mean 'has no sexual experience', which it just doesn't.

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Yurilover
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

... or probably more often, they're too impatient to waste time undressing.

That and for me the fabric brushing against me is quite lovely. Also it makes the situation feel more heated(hot and lustful).

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Snao Cone
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well technically you are. Virgin's generally taken to mean 'hasn't had penetrative sex', and mostly PIV at that. AVEN posters seem to want it to  mean 'has no sexual experience', which it just doesn't.

So a lesbian could have had 100 sexual partners, call herself a virgin, and you would entirely agree with her.

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Yurilover
6 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

So a lesbian could have had 100 sexual partners, call herself a virgin, and you would entirely agree with her.

See this is exactly what I was trying to say..Lol 

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Serran
26 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

So a lesbian could have had 100 sexual partners, call herself a virgin, and you would entirely agree with her.

Yeah, that's my issue with the PiV sex = virginity response. That means homosexuals who have never had hetero sex are all virgins...

 

If you say you're a virgin and go to get treated for a STD, the doctor is gonna look at you funny if you go "I wasn't lying, I am a virgin! I've only had oral and anal sex with 50 different partners!" 

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Snao Cone
30 minutes ago, Serran said:

Yeah, that's my issue with the PiV sex = virginity response. That means homosexuals who have never had hetero sex are all virgins...

 

If you say you're a virgin and go to get treated for a STD, the doctor is gonna look at you funny if you go "I wasn't lying, I am a virgin! I've only had oral and anal sex with 50 different partners!" 

This is why doctors should specify what type of sex they're asking about. (I'm sure many of them do, out of thoroughness.)

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Yurilover
20 minutes ago, Serran said:

Yeah, that's my issue with the PiV sex = virginity response. That means homosexuals who have never had hetero sex are all virgins...

I willing to wager that a lot of homo, myself included call bs on that definition. To be fair gay men get more leeway because a penis is being inserted.

 

22 minutes ago, Serran said:

If you say you're a virgin and go to get treated for a STD, the doctor is gonna look at you funny if you go "I wasn't lying, I am a virgin! I've only had oral and anal sex with 50 different partners!"

Lol to be fair some doctors probably wouldn't even look at you funny see my post above. My doctor still called me a virgin even after listing my sexual activities with multiple partners, it just didn't involve PIV or anal sex. 

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Yurilover
6 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

This is why doctors should specify what type of sex they're asking about. (I'm sure many of them do, out of thoroughness.)

From my experience a few doctors still regard only PIV and or anal penetration to be sex. Even when I was living in the US the only safe sex tips medical professionals could give me was for PIV or anal penetration by using a condom. For other sexual activity they'll pretty much say just abstain if you're not sure of your sexual partner status. On queer friendly sites they do have methods in which two women can have safe sex. So for a few wlw their doctors are unaware of how to provide adequate information/care when it comes to sex/health.

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Redshirt Jim
9 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

Oh please, don't give the 'redefine everything as you go' crew any ideas...

 

 

 

@Telecaster68 Forgive me? 🍰🍰🍰

🌻🔥Live Long and Prosper🔥🌻

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MrDane

Back in the ol’ days (im not writing ‘good’ on purpose) the term virgin referred to whether a woman had her hymen busted by insertion of a penis in her vagina, or because it was busted otherwise but she still had a penis inside her vagina. This would, in the western world, be expected to happen as the marriage was consummated on the wedding nigth. This was before all those modern things like masturbation, dildoes, analsex, lgbtqouia+, bdsm, you-fucking-name-it, fingering, college-fuckfests,  and many other things. The world was also in b/w and not rainbowy and the clitoris was terra incognito to most men.

Then ‘virgin’ became a word describing whether someone had ever had sex, and usually understood as more than just a kiss or grap, but still stimulation/massage involving genitalia. Now it is more a matter of what kind of flavour of sex you have had or have not had, and on this site very importantly, are not interested in having. 

“I am a virgin on the homo-issue”

”I have had sex, as in giving bj’s”

 

as a teacher, I have to say two things:

1. Language changes. Meaning of word changes. It is important to be precise. It is hard to be precise.

2. We use words to define/create/understand the world around us. As the world gets more complex, fast changing and with a global orientation/focus, there is a constant need to look into the meaning of the words. Everyday what we thougth were given as certain changes or are challenged. Just take the small things. A concrete matter like coffee! When is it considered coffee? Is it due to the colour. The taste? The use of coffee beans? Does it have to contain water or be hot or fluid? I bet you can find a ton of examples, where the ‘coffee’ isnt just hot drink made from coffee beans, but still called coffee. Frappucino coffee. Coffee artificially made. 

 

It is important to be sure to know what we mean as we talk together. I love @Telecaster68‘s example with jibberish nonsense. We have to find common ground and define what we talk about and the idea that “all definitions are equally good” is not being open and accepting. It is just a way of saying “idgaf. I have my truth.  I dont want to communicate anymore!”

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Chimeric

I think there are a few different wires getting crossed, here. 

 

In essentially all cultures that use the term, "virgin" means - at the least - no penetrative sex, which doesn't necessarily mean PIV. Homosexual female and homosexual male couples are perfectly well capable of having penetrative sex (and, in doing, would generally rescind the "virgin" title).

 

Sexual intercourse generally includes penetrative sex of, um, any orifice (sorry... that was awkward phrasing). Oral sex is sex, but not everyone qualifies themselves as having lost their virginity for having had it, and in Western culture that's usually okay. Start venturing into other cultures and it becomes adamantly non-virginal. 

 

It's perfectly well acceptable to have done the deed with a person that seemed right in the moment, and regret it immediately afterwards. Usually that gets called a "mistake," and thankfully you can accept that ya done messed up and move on with your life... but there's only one instance I can think of wherein someone insisted on having remained a  virgin even all throughout her pregnancy and straight up until childbirth, and people let her. :lol:

 

You don't have to like it, but words mean things for a reason.

 

I'm happy not to talk about my ex-husband, but it'd be deceptive of me to pretend like that never happened.

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Serran
4 hours ago, Snao Cone said:

This is why doctors should specify what type of sex they're asking about. (I'm sure many of them do, out of thoroughness.)

I've never had it specified... just asked "Have you ever had sex?" when they were doing checkups, so they would know if they should be doing this test or that one based on risk factors. 

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Philip027
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Who cares? You can't make people stick to something just because it bugs you how they use a word. You can tell me 20 million times my first kiss was technically a kiss but it still won't ever be seen like that to me on an emotional level. So to her in an emotional way she sees herself as a virgin probably. That might be helpful for her in her mental space. I see no harm to that at all because it is a personal matter.

"Emotional levels" are not how the rest of the world determines whether stuff happened or not.

 

Some teenager might fantasize about screwing around with their unrequited crush all the time but it doesn't change the fact they've still never actually had sex and are therefore still a virgin.

 

On a more serious/opposite sort of note, It is really dangerous to go around telling people you're a "virgin" just because you never enjoyed the sex you had or were raped or whatever.  Your feelings about the sex you had (willingly or not, enjoyable or not) do not determine whether or not it took place.  The dangerous part comes into play when potential sexual partners hear about your "virginity" and take this to mean you are likely free of potential foreign STDs, when you very well could not be.

 

On a sillier sort of note, some people got so offended by The Force Awakens / The Last Jedi that they prefer to assume in their own little "headcanons" (I cringe just typing this term, honestly) or whatever, that the Star Wars sequel series doesn't actually exist.  It doesn't change the fact that they do exist and are canon, whether you like it or not.  Make your own series of movies; then you get to decide what's "for real" and what isn't.

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Telecaster68

Two things:

 

1. There's a difference between saying 'I think oral and anal count as sex', and 'I've had PIV but I'm still a virgin'.

2. My first substantial sexual experience didn't include PIV (everything but, really), and was way more significant for me than the first time I had PIV. I was still a virgin after the first but not the second.

 

Words do change their meaning, but gradually, as the consensus with the people using and hearing them shifts. If people unilaterally change them to mean the opposite of what everyone else understands, then no communication is possible.

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