lilgroundhog Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Maybe I'm weird, but I expect my friends to treat me different from someone they are sexually interested in. My relationship with them is just different because it is inherently non-exclusive, non-romantic, non-sexual. Also when I'm just one of the group and people 'forget' to try to impress me and just be themselves is when I fell like I can relax, be myself, and are accepted as part of the larger whole. Yeah, I don't want to see the people around me being absolute slobs, but I don't need them to be on the best behavior whenever I'm around. Link to post Share on other sites
nate-1234 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 The thing is if you as a boy start talking to a regular girl and do not flirt with a her but rather try to be her friend, I have a suspicion that she thinks 1) he is not attracted to me/he thinks I am unattractive or 2) he is gay. Some girls are more progressive than that though. Link to post Share on other sites
Chimeric Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 28 minutes ago, lilgroundhog said: I expect my friends to treat me different from someone they are sexually interested in. This seems like a totally healthy response, to me. I expect my partner to text me often, because - I assume - he wants to share his day with me. (Important differentiation: I don't demand him to text me often... yet ) I don't expect my guy friends to text me often, because they don't expect me to care about their daily minutia. That's a fair expectation, because I don't usually care about their daily minutia. 15 minutes ago, nate-1234 said: The thing is if you as a boy start talking to a regular girl and do not flirt with a her but rather try to be her friend, I have a suspicion that she thinks 1) he is not attracted to me/he thinks I am unattractive or 2) he is gay. Some girls are more progressive than that though. Nate, this is a really interesting insight. Link to post Share on other sites
nate-1234 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Chimeric said: This seems like a totally healthy response, to me. I expect my partner to text me often, because - I assume - he wants to share his day with me. (Important differentiation: I don't demand him to text me often... yet ) I don't expect my guy friends to text me often, because they don't expect me to care about their daily minutia. That's a fair expectation, because I don't usually care about their daily minutia. Nate, this is a really interesting insight. I try to make friends with female acquaintances that I get along with. Sometimes it is no problem and sometimes it feels like they are expecting or waiting for something from me and then things get awkward. Link to post Share on other sites
Rhaenys Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 In my experience after they knew: Sexual men: Acted more perverted and more aggressive as if they took it to be a rejection. Sexual women: Were more verbal with their ignorance and unecessary opinions about my asexuality. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 On 01/01/2018 at 3:52 AM, dlnvu19 said: It just baffles me because while I may not be interested in sex, I'm still interested in other things such as spending time together, going out places, and connecting in other ways emotionally and mentally. Ok....strip the sex out of the equation. Imagine you begin seeing a guy. Once you begin your ‘friendship’, if the male you are spending this time with confessed or made it clear in other ways that he had zero, none, no interest in the ‘spending time, going out out places and connecting in other ways emotionally’ that you enjoy a perceive as important, would you begin to distance yourself from them in the same way way you complain of? If you are honest, of course you would. No doubt whatsoever! Because we look for compatability in a partner. All they are doing is recognising the obvious incompatibility and reducing their effort as a result. Can you blame them? Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 12/31/2017 at 7:52 PM, dlnvu19 said: It just baffles me because while I may not be interested in sex, I'm still interested in other things such as spending time together, going out places, and connecting in other ways emotionally and mentally. On 1/18/2018 at 5:32 PM, James121 said: Ok....strip the sex out of the equation. Imagine you begin seeing a guy. Once you begin your ‘friendship’, if the male you are spending this time with confessed or made it clear in other ways that he had zero, none, no interest in the ‘spending time, going out out places and connecting in other ways emotionally’ that you enjoy a perceive as important, would you begin to distance yourself from them in the same way way you complain of? While @dinvu is talking about having a relationship without sex, you're talking about having no relationship at all. If you don't spend time with someone, go out places and connecting in other ways emotionally and mentally without having sex...what's left? Relationships are about relating. Relating is about finding common ground a.k.a. "connecting". You might meet someone who you share a lot of common ground with. But for some, unless sex is involved, the rest of the common ground doesn't matter. And THAT'S what's baffling. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, vega57 said: While @dinvu is talking about having a relationship without sex, you're talking about having no relationship at all. If you don't spend time with someone, go out places and connecting in other ways emotionally and mentally without having sex...what's left? Relationships are about relating. Relating is about finding common ground a.k.a. "connecting". You might meet someone who you share a lot of common ground with. But for some, unless sex is involved, the rest of the common ground doesn't matter. And THAT'S what's baffling. Telecaster has phrased it very well for me. See above! Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: If ‘spending time and going out to places’ was absent, so the relationship was purely sexual, they probably wouldn't be interested either. Even affairs generally include some element of spending time and going out to places. Even if it's just hotel-room rendezvous, people talk, and laugh together, and have a connection that isn't sexual as well as the time they spend having sex. Almost no relationships, outside prostitution, involve nothing but sex. And THAT'S what it sounded like James was describing: Prostitution. It just seems like an all-or-nothing proposition. Either sex is involved or there's NO relationship. Period. Yet, there are so many other aspects of a relationship that can be enjoyed without sex. Are all other 'avenues' supposed to lead to the bedroom, and if they don't, those other avenues are shut down permanently? Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: It didn't sound like he was describing prostitution to me. Those avenues aren't designed to lead to the bedroom - this is not means to an end stuff. In many cases, it sure sounds like it. After all, how many posts do we see where someone (usually the man) tells us, "I do everything for her...cook, clean, read the kids stories, wash her car, pick up her dry cleaning, listen to her and show her compassion when she's upset about something at work, and she STILL won't have sex with me!" That IS a means to an end. Quote Personally, I wouldn't have sex with someone I didn't share a sense of humour with... Sense of humor? YOU???? No WONDER why you're not getting too much sex, Tele! (That's supposed to be a joke) Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, vega57 said: In many cases, it sure sounds like it. After all, how many posts do we see where someone (usually the man) tells us, "I do everything for her...cook, clean, read the kids stories, wash her car, pick up her dry cleaning, listen to her and show her compassion when she's upset about something at work, and she STILL won't have sex with me!" I read more and more examples of asexuals adopting a victims mentality. He/she isn’t interested now that they’ve realised sex isn’t on the table. What do you expect. And then I read a lot manipulation of written responses that infer that sexuals simply think everything leads to the bedroom. Stop acting like victims and start accepting that no offer of sex in a relationship is a huge deal. Even an offer occasional robotic “i’ll do it be I know they want it” isn’t good enough. People (sexuals) don’t just want sex, they want to be desired. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 23 minutes ago, James121 said: I read more and more examples of asexuals adopting a victims mentality. He/she isn’t interested now that they’ve realised sex isn’t on the table. What do you expect. And then I read a lot manipulation of written responses that infer that sexuals simply think everything leads to the bedroom. Stop acting like victims and start accepting that no offer of sex in a relationship is a huge deal. Even an offer occasional robotic “i’ll do it be I know they want it” isn’t good enough. People (sexuals) don’t just want sex, they want to be desired. They ARE "desired" (a fancy-schmancy word for "wanted"). Just not in a sexual sense. They may be "desired" in every other way there is to offer...except sexually. Desired to be a father...a companion...a financial partner, building a financial "empire" together...desired as 'leader' of the family, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 28 minutes ago, James121 said: I read more and more examples of asexuals adopting a victims mentality. He/she isn’t interested now that they’ve realised sex isn’t on the table. What do you expect. And then I read a lot manipulation of written responses that infer that sexuals simply think everything leads to the bedroom. Stop acting like victims and start accepting that no offer of sex in a relationship is a huge deal. Even an offer occasional robotic “i’ll do it be I know they want it” isn’t good enough. People (sexuals) don’t just want sex, they want to be desired. Sexuals can also adopt a "victims" mentality. To many sexuals, no sex = no relationship, PERIOD. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 33 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: Not that many, on here, that I'm aware of. Can you link to some? Hmm. I'd have to go back into the Sexual Partners and Allies forum on Aven, but I've seen a few. I wish I could link you to some other forums besides AVEN where the "many" are well...many, lol. But I don't know if I'd be going against the ToS on Aven. (Perhaps an MOD could clue me in....? Am I allowed to post a link to different forum on this forum, or am I allowed to post it to an AVEN member in a PM?) Quote The wider relationship stuff does come up in the context of 'everything else is fine', or sometimes (particularly on reddit etc.) when the partner who doesn't want sex seems to be flailing round for reasons - for themself as much as their partner - and cites things like 'maybe I'd feel more relaxed if you did more round the house'. More often than not, the more sexual partner tries this, and it doesn't make any difference, and they're given another reason ('I'm tired', 'I'm stressed with work' etc). Rinse and repeat. Yes, I've seen this before on other forums. I've seen how frustrated the more sexual partner is because of how hard they're "trying" (I have my own 'take' on their "strategy", but I'll save my opinion for their failure for another time....) Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: How would an asexual feel if they were desired in every way apart from, say, as a conversational partner? Wouldn't that impact how viable they felt the relationship was? Can that REALLY happen? I mean, how can one have ANY kind of relationship if one doesn't want to have ANY conversation? Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: They are trying. No quotes please. I put "trying" in quotes for a reason, Tele. My ex husband once gave me a card for Valentine's day that read, "Happy Valentine's day, Son".... I already knew that he walked into a Hallmark store in a mall and selected the first card he saw without reading it. How hard did he "try"? There's trying and then there's "trying"... Quote It comes up on Reddit's DeadBedrooms more frequently, and it's normally challenged. It's based on a transactional idea of sex, and covert contracts. It ends up in a stalemate, and one or other person has to make the first move; to me, it seems like the more sexual partner generally does, and frequently, the goalposts then move. O.k., having seen similar posts on other forums, the usual response is to apply some other strategy, that is, some logical sequence of events that the more sexual partner is supposed to do, in order to inspire the other partner to want more sex. And yes, it DOES often backfire because the other partner senses that the more sexual partner is doing these things in order to get more sex. Also, the things that the sexual partner does often has nothing to do with the other partner. It's great that the sexual partner participates in the day-to-day family life...but it's not personal to the other partner. Quote We were specifically talking about AVEN though. Hmmm. And here I was believing that sex and no sex exists outside of AVEN. Silly me.... Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 49 minutes ago, vega57 said: Sexuals can also adopt a "victims" mentality. To many sexuals, no sex = no relationship, PERIOD. That’s because without sex it’s a friendship Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 50 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: How would an asexual feel if they were desired in every way apart from, say, as a conversational partner? Wouldn't that impact how viable they felt the relationship was? Yes it would but most will sit here and argue until they are blue in the face otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, vega57 said: I put "trying" in quotes for a reason, Tele. My ex husband once gave me a card for Valentine's day that read, "Happy Valentine's day, Son".... I already knew that he walked into a Hallmark store in a mall and selected the first card he saw without reading it. How hard did he "try"? There's trying and then there's "trying"... Why would he try when you only wanted him for a father, a leader, a companion and a financial partner? That’s your words I just quoted. So please tell me why he would put thought in to what card he chose? It’s debatable as to whether he should spent any time going to the shop in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: But, if 'doing something previously agreed to make sex more likely' doesn't count because one partner did it to make sex more likely, how are they ever going to achieve what both partners have agreed they want to happen? Their alternative is to not help out more, go on date nights etc, and how is that supposed to work? I think the idea is, if you're only helping the other person to get something yourself, it's not really for helping the other person - there isn't any thoughtfulness behind it if the only goal is to get something yourself. It's a selfish act, which rings hollow to the person. Whereas, if you're doing it because you want to show your partner how much you appreciate them and love them, they might then show how much they appreciate and love you by giving you something in return. Kind of like... my Aunt helps my mom out with house work, cause she works too many hours. Sometimes my mom pays her for it, sometimes she doesn't have the cash to do so. Either way, my Aunt is helping cause she wants to help my mom. It's not just about the money. If she refused except when she was being paid, then it would be about the money and wouldn't be a kind act that showed my mom she cares about her, it would just be a contractual exchange of services. So, it's important in many cases to not only do the actions of helping out with house work, dates, etc... but to also make the person feel like you're not just doing it to get what you want. It should make the person feel loved, respected, appreciated, not like they're exchanging sex for a service, cause that's going to backfire. And that can be hard to do if it all happens after a big fight about sex where you basically say if you did X or Y I might feel like it more. Personally, all attempting the exchange thing did for me was make me feel like a prostitute, which made me less likely to be OK with sex. If my partner did something sweet/thoughtful without me spelling it out for him, I was more open to it. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 25 minutes ago, James121 said: Why would he try when you only wanted him for a father, a leader, a companion and a financial partner? That’s your words I just quoted. So please tell me why he would put thought in to what card he chose? It’s debatable as to whether he should spent any time going to the shop in the first place. ONLY??? That's like saying that you "ONLY" received $999,999.99 instead of a million dollars. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 18 minutes ago, Serran said: I think the idea is, if you're only helping the other person to get something yourself, it's not really for helping the other person - there isn't any thoughtfulness behind it if the only goal is to get something yourself. It's a selfish act, which rings hollow to the person. Whereas, if you're doing it because you want to show your partner how much you appreciate them and love them, they might then show how much they appreciate and love you by giving you something in return. Kind of like... my Aunt helps my mom out with house work, cause she works too many hours. Sometimes my mom pays her for it, sometimes she doesn't have the cash to do so. Either way, my Aunt is helping cause she wants to help my mom. It's not just about the money. If she refused except when she was being paid, then it would be about the money and wouldn't be a kind act that showed my mom she cares about her, it would just be a contractual exchange of services. So, it's important in many cases to not only do the actions of helping out with house work, dates, etc... but to also make the person feel like you're not just doing it to get what you want. It should make the person feel loved, respected, appreciated, not like they're exchanging sex for a service, cause that's going to backfire. And that can be hard to do if it all happens after a big fight about sex where you basically say if you did X or Y I might feel like it more. Personally, all attempting the exchange thing did for me was make me feel like a prostitute, which made me less likely to be OK with sex. If my partner did something sweet/thoughtful without me spelling it out for him, I was more open to it. Serran, you're an MOD. Where's the DAMN applause button for this post??? Seriously, this is SPOT ON! Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 39 minutes ago, Serran said: I think the idea is, if you're only helping the other person to get something yourself, it's not really for helping the other person - there isn't any thoughtfulness behind it if the only goal is to get something yourself. It's a selfish act, which rings hollow to the person. Whereas, if you're doing it because you want to show your partner how much you appreciate them and love them, they might then show how much they appreciate and love you by giving you something in return. Kind of like... my Aunt helps my mom out with house work, cause she works too many hours. Sometimes my mom pays her for it, sometimes she doesn't have the cash to do so. Either way, my Aunt is helping cause she wants to help my mom. It's not just about the money. If she refused except when she was being paid, then it would be about the money and wouldn't be a kind act that showed my mom she cares about her, it would just be a contractual exchange of services. So, it's important in many cases to not only do the actions of helping out with house work, dates, etc... but to also make the person feel like you're not just doing it to get what you want. It should make the person feel loved, respected, appreciated, not like they're exchanging sex for a service, cause that's going to backfire. And that can be hard to do if it all happens after a big fight about sex where you basically say if you did X or Y I might feel like it more. Personally, all attempting the exchange thing did for me was make me feel like a prostitute, which made me less likely to be OK with sex. If my partner did something sweet/thoughtful without me spelling it out for him, I was more open to it. CAUTION! WARNING! Possibly too much TMI!!!! This post made me think again (OMG...run for cover! Vega is "thinking", lol!) Sex seems to be the 'currency' for many relationships with sexuals. In fact, for many sexuals, it's the ONLY currency. I know that my late husband used to think that whatever non-sexual thing he may have done for me required me to give him something sexual in exchange. Bring me a glass of water? I now 'owe' him a handjob... Put gas in my car? I now 'owe' him a blow job. Take me (us) out to dinner and let me choose the place? I now owe him a certain kind of sex (dressing up for him, certain position, etc.) If he brought me a glass of water (without me asking, but appreciating, nonetheless), saying, "Thanks" wasn't enough. Putting gas in my car--even if I did SOMETHING ELSE for him, such as, "You put gas in my car, and I'll use your car to get dessert at that bakery that you like", wasn't enough. No matter what did for me (which actually wasn't that much) that was non-sexual, he always-ALWAYS wanting something sexual in return. And this crap often starts when on a first date! Gets old REALLY fast..... Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: I completely agree, and it's very tricky to navigate. Sexual: Why do you always say no to sex? Nonsexual: Because I feel tired/stressed etc. and you're not pulling your weight and it makes me feel unappreciated. Sexual: Okay, that's a fair point. I'll pull my weight A few days later... Sexual: I'm pulling my weight now, aren't I? Nonsexual: Yes, I agree. Sexual: So you're less tired and feeling more appreciated? Nonsexual: Yes, I agree. Sexual: So maybe you'll feel more like sex later? Nonsexual: No, you were only doing it to get sex. What, exactly, is the sexual partner supposed to do at this point? Ummm.....stop doing it in order to get (more) sex....? Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: You're extrapolating from one person to about 3.5 billion. Oh, puh-LEEZ. The scenario is so common... Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: But their partner agreed that the lack of X was the problem. If they stop doing 'x', the problem will persist, and there will be no sex. And it's very often not 'more' sex. It's any sex - or at least so little sex it's technically a sexless relationship; and certainly well below the Kinsey figures. See how this starts to look like a ploy? It's been a "ploy" since the beginning of the relationship, Tele! If you "do" in order to "get", you're eventually going to be discovered! If you're "doing" in order to "get" from the beginning of a relationship, eventually you're GOING to be found out! It's going to seem like you're not doing things for the other person because you want to just DO for them because you're interested in the rest of them; it's going to seem like you're primarily interested in having sex with them and that's ALL. I mean, do you only "love" someone because of what you think you're going to 'get' from them? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Just now, Telecaster68 said: I completely agree, and it's very tricky to navigate. Sexual: Why do you always say no to sex? Nonsexual: Because I feel tired/stressed etc. and you're not pulling your weight and it makes me feel unappreciated. Sexual: Okay, that's a fair point. I'll pull my weight A few days later... Sexual: I'm pulling my weight now, aren't I? Nonsexual: Yes, I agree. Sexual: So you're less tired and feeling more appreciated? Nonsexual: Yes, I agree. Sexual: So maybe you'll feel more like sex later? Nonsexual: No, you were only doing it to get sex. What, exactly, is the sexual partner supposed to do at this point? Mm, well, thing is, you probably don't feel more appreciated. You may feel less tired. But, if you think they are only doing it for sex, then you probably aren't getting the emotional benefits, just the physical ones. And, asking "So, I did thing, can we have sex now?" is just pushing the point that it's an exchange of services, not something you're doing for them. But, how to make them feel like it's something you're doing for them and not just so you can get sex is not something I can really answer. Cause, if you aren't doing it anyway until they say "I might feel more like sex if...", that's going to probably be the reaction when you suddenly start to. If you were to do it a while and not request your reward, maybe it might start to work to make them feel like you appreciate and care for them. But, then the sexual is going to continue feeling frustrated, so is less likely to want to do things for their non-sexual partner. Which then makes the non-sexual partner less likely to want sex. It's a hard cycle to get out of. It's the small thoughtful stuff done without me telling the person to do it that made me more open to sex, when I was dating people that wanted sex. Usually if you have to tell someone to be thoughtful, it doesn't feel very genuine. I didn't make a pot roast dinner for my partner (despite begin a vegetarian myself) because I wanted something from them, I did it cause I knew they'd like it. If I had then asked for something in return, I'd not be making them feel appreciated, but make them suspicious of the things I did for them. I don't want someone doing something cause I asked. I want someone to do something nice for me cause they want to, because they love me. That's the difference. And, why a lot of the time, doing things to make sex more likely is gonna fail... cause it doesn't give that emotional response that someone just doing something for you because they care about you does. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: So in fact, when the sexual person asks 'what can I do that will make us more likely to have sex?' the answer is effectively 'nothing'. Why doesn't the less/non/asexual partner just say that? Because they probably are naming the things that they know are missing in their emotional needs. And they know when they feel emotionally fulfilled, they are more open to having sex, cause they feel more like doing that for their partner. So, they probably think "Well, this will do it...", but then once it's done, it's just not doing what they thought it would. Cause the person is being told to do it for more sex, so then it doesn't actually fulfill those emotional needs, it's more hollow. Example, I absolutely adore cuddling up and watching movies or something. However, a lot of my exes were not into just cuddling. So, if I had to ask them to do it, I just couldn't enjoy it, since they weren't doing it out of their own desire for it. Kind of like... sex with a person not into it is not as fulfilling as sex with someone who also desires you, right? And some people simply cannot feel fulfilled at all if their partner isn't into it. Some people can't feel emotionally fulfilled if the person isn't doing the "acts of service" thing out of their own desires, but just because they were told they need to in order to get what they want. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: Okay, maybe the first time or two. But the kind of posts Vega and I have referred to are a multiple iterations of this. Does the penny not drop? Being sexually desired is a good parallel, and it drops pretty quickly for most sexuals. And I could tell without even trying it that hugs/cuddles as a result of explaining why they're necessary and asking would suffer from the 'if you have to ask it doesn't work' thing. It's hard not to suspect that since asexuals know lack of sex could be a deal killer, they're squirming round saying what they know they feel. Well, yeah, it should become obvious after the first time or two. Maybe after the first time they'd try something else like "OK... that didn't work because I had to ask for that specifically. Maybe if I'm more vague like "I want you to be more considerate about ..." it would be more from them and therefore work better!" so they'd try again. But, eventually you really do have to figure out "OK, this is not working at all, they'd have to do it on their own without me asking.." Personally, I tried it once and it just wasn't working for me. So, I gave up. Link to post Share on other sites
James121 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, vega57 said: ONLY??? That's like saying that you "ONLY" received $999,999.99 instead of a million dollars. OMG what a crazy response! Link to post Share on other sites
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