Sexual Men Treating Asexual Women Differently?

[dlnvu19]

I don't know if it's just me, but this is something that I've observed in my social relationships with (sexual) men in my past, and most recently. I'm at a point in my life where I'm finally telling people up front about my orientation (biromantic asexual). I feel it's only fair to get that on the table immediately to avoid any confusion or disappointment for both parties down the line. But in the past, before I knew how to classify myself, I would only say that I wasn't interested in sex or that I didn't believe in premarital sex (I was raised Christian). It would always seem that, shortly after my confession, men would then start treating me differently in that, they no longer treated me "like a lady" if you understand me. I wouldn't get asked to go places, I would always have to be the one to put forth the effort or suggest outings and even plan the entire thing. They would never offer to pick me up or just simply behave as gentlemen toward me. It was almost like I was just another one of the guys. They stopped trying to dress neat, or portray themselves courteously. It's as though "I'm not interested in sex" translated in their minds to "put forth 0 effort because she's not putting out and it's not worth your time."  Even if it's just a male/female friendship situation, I still notice I get treated differently or am otherwise kept at an emotional distance with guys. 

 

It just baffles me because while I may not be interested in sex, I'm still interested in other things such as spending time together, going out places, and connecting in other ways emotionally and mentally. I am also rather old fashioned and am partial to traditional courting behaviors (i.e. man asks woman out, picks her up, opens doors), but that's never happened for me. I'm actually dealing with something right now where ever since I told him about my orientation, he doesn't seem that enthused to even just spend time with me as a friend going places or putting forth any effort in building our friendship at all. It went from texting me nearly everyday just to see how I'm doing to once a week now, if that.  And I'm not suggesting that the responsibility always be on the guy to pick up the woman.  If I'm the one doing the inviting, I have no problems planning, paying and offering transportation so I'm not that archaic. But, it just ends up being that I'm ALWAYS having to make the effort and it makes me feel like they don't really want to be around me and I'm essentially forcing myself on them which in turn causes me to pull away because I'm not about to force someone to be around me if they don't want to be.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I was wondering if any other asexual women noticed that men tend to treat them differently once you tell them you're not interested in sex and you end up having to guide 90% of the relationship?

[Palovana]

In my experience, what happens is straight guys only ever speak to me if they think they're going to get in my pants. They'll be sugary sweet, pretend they want to be my "friend", pretend they have similar interests to mine. When I tell them I'm asexual, one of two things always happen. They disappear and I never hear from them again. Or, they continue pretending they want to be my "friend", while becoming increasingly overbearing in terms of complimenting me, trying to impress me, going out of their way to do things for me, pretend they care about me, all with the goal of somehow thinking they can win me over. Both scenarios are devastating for me. All I want is a friend. Someone who cares about me for me, for who I am. But this has happened so many times, with every male acquaintance I've ever had, that I really don't believe it's possible for me to be friends with guys anymore. Which is a shame, because I share a lot of common interests with guys - more so than women anyway - like sports, video games, metal...that's not to say there aren't women who like these things, but it seems they're much more difficult to find. Straight men will also lie through their teeth to me, with devastating consequences for me, because I end up trusting them with things they should never be trusted with, and when they finally realize they're never getting in my pants, they stab me in the back and use my trust as a weapon against me. And these are people who led me to believe they were really my friends. Really all along they were just telling me what they thought I wanted to hear, just to get close to me to try to fuck me. 

[Sally]

I think heterosexual men want to feel like they are the "one" for a woman, even if she's not the "one" for them.  When they learn the woman is asexual, it's like telling them that she's refused to let them be the one.  They may be a little angry at that, even if they don't realize it, and it changes their behavior.  

[JustanotherTobigirl]

The only straight men I don't have this problem with are either a few of my work friends I have just gotten to know by working in the same place (never the guys who immediately approach you and try to befriend you at a new job, those ones usually want to date the new girl) or friends of my friends. I've learned that for the most part if a guy approaches me first, friendship is not going to work. I also try and make it known I'm asexual to men very early into a friendship, so if they are only interested in dating, they can be on there way before anyone gets hurt. 

[dlnvu19]

22 minutes ago, Palovana said:

In my experience, what happens is straight guys only ever speak to me if they think they're going to get in my pants. They'll be sugary sweet, pretend they want to be my "friend", pretend they have similar interests to mine. When I tell them I'm asexual, one of two things always happen. They disappear and I never hear from them again. Or, they continue pretending they want to be my "friend", while becoming increasingly overbearing in terms of complimenting me, trying to impress me, going out of their way to do things for me, pretend they care about me, all with the goal of somehow thinking they can win me over. Both scenarios are devastating for me. All I want is a friend. Someone who cares about me for me, for who I am. But this has happened so many times, with every male acquaintance I've ever had, that I really don't believe it's possible for me to be friends with guys anymore. Which is a shame, because I share a lot of common interests with guys - more so than women anyway - like sports, video games, metal...that's not to say there aren't women who like these things, but it seems they're much more difficult to find. Straight men will also lie through their teeth to me, with devastating consequences for me, because I end up trusting them with things they should never be trusted with, and when they finally realize they're never getting in my pants, they stab me in the back and use my trust as a weapon against me. And these are people who led me to believe they were really my friends. Really all along they were just telling me what they thought I wanted to hear, just to get close to me to try to fuck me. 

This! Literally all of this! It's almost dehumanizing in a sense, especially the ones that start acting distant or ghost you all together. It's like, so you only were interested in "getting to know" me because you wanted my body? I'm not worth your time for anything else? Wow. Ok. It really makes it hard to build/keep friendships with straight men. I have a few male acquaintances at work, but straight male "friends?" Yeah, I can't say I've been able to make and/or keep any of those. It's pretty depressing, because I'm the same; I mostly like traditional guy things so I connect and relate more easily to men with my interests. But I've found it's usually about sex with them. Really disheartening. And I'm all out of cake to heal the pain, lol.

[Sally]

No, I don't think they wanted to get to know you only for your body.  But for sexuals, sex is an important part of a relationship, and if they are told straight  up, from the first, that sex will NOT be a part of the relationship, they probably don't see the point of starting a relationship when that important part isn't going to happen.  

[Palovana]

1 minute ago, dlnvu19 said:

It's almost dehumanizing in a sense, especially the ones that start acting distant or ghost you all together. It's like, so you only were interested in "getting to know" me because you wanted my body? I'm not worth your time for anything else?

YES absolutely. It makes me feel totally worthless, like I'm just a non-human, inanimate, conscious-less sex toy. Like oh, I was good enough for you to fuck me but not enough to be your friend? I had an experience with an individual who built up an entire (what I thought was) very close friendship on lies - lie after lie after lie, to the point I don't even really know what was the truth anymore - for almost FIVE YEARS - before destroying me psychologically by using my disability as the reason we couldn't be friends anymore. I see now, in retrospect, nearly every conversation and time we hung out was his effort to either flirt with me or initiate sex. This experience, as well as all the other experiences I've had with straight men, has really honestly made me lose my belief that friendship even exists. And trying to be friends with women doesn't usually work out for me either, because 99% of the time all they're really interested in talking to me about are dating, sex, or their kids. And when I tell them I really don't want to talk about that or hear about it, they get all huffy and tell me I'm being rude and bitchy, and then don't really ever speak to me again. It's extremely lonely, but I've gotten to a point where I'm really starting to believe complete solitude is the only way to live my life without being utterly destroyed. Or, more destroyed than I've already been. No one fucking deserves to be treated that way. I am not a toy or a tool for someone to play with or use.

[JustanotherTobigirl]

7 minutes ago, Sally said:

No, I don't think they wanted to get to know you only for your body.  But for sexuals, sex is an important part of a relationship, and if they are told straight  up, from the first, that sex will NOT be a part of the relationship, they probably don't see the point of starting a relationship when that important part isn't going to happen.  

They aren't talking about romantic relations here, just simply friendship. Many straight men won't even consider being 'just friends' with women.

[Sally]

I don't think men have been raised to think of women as friends.   So when they find that a romantic relationship isn't going to be possible (for them), that's kind of it.  

[Visenya]

1 hour ago, Palovana said:

In my experience, what happens is straight guys only ever speak to me if they think they're going to get in my pants. They'll be sugary sweet, pretend they want to be my "friend", pretend they have similar interests to mine. When I tell them I'm asexual, one of two things always happen. They disappear and I never hear from them again. Or, they continue pretending they want to be my "friend", while becoming increasingly overbearing in terms of complimenting me, trying to impress me, going out of their way to do things for me, pretend they care about me, all with the goal of somehow thinking they can win me over. Both scenarios are devastating for me. All I want is a friend. Someone who cares about me for me, for who I am. But this has happened so many times, with every male acquaintance I've ever had, that I really don't believe it's possible for me to be friends with guys anymore. Which is a shame, because I share a lot of common interests with guys - more so than women anyway - like sports, video games, metal...that's not to say there aren't women who like these things, but it seems they're much more difficult to find.

That's pretty much my experience as well, except that at least most straight guys I've met are straightforward and pragmatic enough to make their intentions known quite soon, so I can't say that I've ever lost a close male friend. And, just like you, I share a lot of common interests with guys and I don't get along with women very well. I enjoy talking about certain things (tv shows, books, games, music, etc) and ideas (politics, psychology, etc), but unfortunately most women I've met are interested in other things, like astrology, dating/Tinder/relationships, famous pop singers, clothes/makeup, and banal daily life (like complaining about coworkers, for example), which I find a bit boring after awhile, so I just sit there and listen while other women do the talking. I absolutely love hanging out with guys, but in my experience, the older I get, the less interested men are in being friends with women.
 

It reminds me of something Marylin Frye said:

 

To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking) exclusively with [...] women. All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire... those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.

Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.

Obviously, I know that #NotAllMen are like this, but I find it hard not to be pessimistic, y'know? Especially considering that I keep hearing this exact same complaint coming from several other women...

 

To be honest, this is one of the many reasons why I don't want a relationship very much, despite being romantic. If I had a boyfriend, I would have this constant feeling that my partner doesn't truly enjoy my company. Not wanting a sexless relationship is fine, of course, but not even wanting to be friends with women feels almost dehumanizing to me. I've always wanted to be with someone (a friend, preferably) who wants nothing but my company (which is sometimes hard to find even among female friends), so I don't think I would be able to feel genuinely appreciated in a relationship. Some people talk as if having a (male) partner would solve my problems and prevent me from feeling lonely, but I know that that's not true. So, at least it made me feel better about being single.  I'd probably be better off seeking happiness and companionship elsewhere...

[daveb]

Obviously I can't speak for sexual men, being ace myself. But one concern that is often at the back of my mind when it comes to friendships with women is how other people might perceive things and think that I am after something besides friendship. It can be a little awkward when other people assume you are a couple (in the romantic sense or sexual sense). That can happen when I am out with one of my sisters, too. Then there's the whole stigma of the "friend zone", as if being friends is somehow a bad thing. I think you all are probably right that often the guys are looking for relationships that eventually include sex (although that doesn't mean they are only interested in your body).

[dlnvu19]

2 minutes ago, daveb said:

Obviously I can't speak for sexual men, being ace myself. But one concern that is often at the back of my mind when it comes to friendships with women is how other people might perceive things and think that I am after something besides friendship. It can be a little awkward when other people assume you are a couple (in the romantic sense or sexual sense). That can happen when I am out with one of my sisters, too. Then there's the whole stigma of the "friend zone", as if being friends is somehow a bad thing. I think you all are probably right that often the guys are looking for relationships that eventually include sex (although that doesn't mean they are only interested in your body).

I think that "friend zone" stigma definitely cripples straight men when it comes to forming solid and profound friendships with women. And it's strange, because both parties could enrich each others lives in a non-sexual relationship in various ways, but somehow this enrichment is criticized as a sign of weakness among males and their peers. So I think, men subconsciously think that if a woman doesn't want to have sex with him (even if it's her orientation and has ZERO to do with him as an individual) it's an insult to his manhood or in some way emasculating. I may be jumping the gun a bit, but I get the impression that a straight man actively pursuing a friendship with a woman (especially if said woman is deemed physically attractive in some way) is considered failing as a man. And this is something that was entirely constructed by men themselves, so to me it seems masochistic. There are many benefits to a friendship, regardless of the genders of the individuals involved in that friendship. And a lot of men shoot themselves in the foot over some stupid, idealized, and frankly unrealistic view of masculinity. Ironically, it's usually the ones who hold a healthy security in their masculinity that have no issues actively pursuing friendships with women. But they are hard to come by, for sure. And it's getting tiresome. 

[knittinghistorian]

I lost a best friend this way. He made me choose between a romantic/sexual relationship, or nothing; I couldn’t give what he wanted, so nothing it was.

[knittinghistorian]

2 minutes ago, dlnvu19 said:

I think that "friend zone" stigma definitely cripples straight men when it comes to forming solid and profound friendships with women. And it's strange, because both parties could enrich each others lives in a non-sexual relationship in various ways, but somehow this enrichment is criticized as a sign of weakness among males and their peers. So I think, men subconsciously think that if a woman doesn't want to have sex with him (even if it's her orientation and has ZERO to do with him as an individual) it's an insult to his manhood or in some way emasculating. I may be jumping the gun a bit, but I get the impression that a straight man actively pursuing a friendship with a woman (especially if said woman is deemed physically attractive in some way) is considered failing as a man. And this is something that was entirely constructed by men themselves, so to me it seems masochistic. There are many benefits to a friendship, regardless of the genders of the individuals involved in that friendship. And a lot of men shoot themselves in the foot over some stupid, idealized, and frankly unrealistic view of masculinity. Ironically, it's usually the ones who hold a healthy security in their masculinity that have no issues actively pursuing friendships with women. But they are hard to come by, for sure. And it's getting tiresome. 

This. All of this.

[StormySky]

2 hours ago, Sally said:

I think heterosexual men want to feel like they are the "one" for a woman, even if she's not the "one" for them.  When they learn the woman is asexual, it's like telling them that she's refused to let them be the one.  They may be a little angry at that, even if they don't realize it, and it changes their behavior.  

Ugh, I hate this "the one" mentality. It just seems to create so many problems in relationships I witness... people seem to think that "compromise" and "hard work" are magically nullified because "they're The One!!"

 

This one dude kept bothering me like:

"Oh look how much I'm acting like a suck-up to you. I'm DESTINED to make love to....I mean, hold you now and forever"

I told him to bug off and stop being a pain in the butt and he did.

[Duke Memphis]

I don't believe that love is a strict one-to-one thing. If hearts connect, then let them. If they don't, then it's time to move on. I'm more of a "there are plenty of fish in the sea" guy than a "there's somebody for everybody" guy.

[StormySky]

I'm a tomboy who generally befriends the nerdy guys, so that's probably the reason I'm treated less like a sexual woman

But it's ok because I hate being treated only for being a lady

[Guest]

The men who do that treat sexual women like shit after sleeping with them (or after the woman rejects them), so trust me when I tell you you are not missing out on anything.

[Lipbalm]

My female friends say the same thing and we were talking about it just a few days ago!

 

This has been my experience in that many men are after one thing.

Now, I don't make an effort with my appearance and don't dress in a feminine way, so I've noticed I don't get that kind of attention anymore.

But, when I used to look better and made an effort I would get some men acting all nice and friendly and I got hurt emotionally as well as finding myself in dangerous situations. Once I made it clear I wanted no sex, I was dropped like a piece of shit in most occasions, apart from the ones who believed they had a right to my body and I came close to getting raped once. 

 

I used to crave for a genuine platonic male friend, but I stopped craving as it's so hard to find one, so i gave up.

 

 

 

 

[banoffeepie]

I think that we're just seeing stereotypical sexual males revealed for the pretentious single-minded ***** they stereotypically are seen as.

 

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

This has a flipside too. Men frequently find themselves friend zoned by sexual women they're attracted to if they behave too much like friends and not like potential lovers, even if there's some attraction there from the woman. I think it's down to feeling *too* comfortable and therefore lacking that tension (therapist Esther Perel has spoken a lot on this) which humans often interpret as sexual attraction. 

As an asexual male I always wanted women friends. I prefer women's conversation (not about football or sex!) I am more relaxed in women's company. At parties or gatherings I always end up talking to the women there.  I would have loved to have a woman friend to do coffee with.

But, after years and years of trying to be friendly it seemed that there was always this kind of tension and expectation that would creep in on their part. My behaviour was taken as an advance and they would either reject that, or try and take it somewhere I didn't want to go. 

Then they would be gone! So it never happened.

Almost the same situation in reverse, but not so pronounced.

[umbasa]

That is because those men have never seen a woman as a friend.

 

Coming at this from the man viewpoint... I said in another topic about how the movie When Harry Met Sally has been so damaging to the concept of platonic friendships between men and women we still see its effect today regardless if you ever saw the movie or not. Nowadays, the movie is most remembered for 'that scene' but the barely talked about concept of the film (can men and women ever truly be friends without sex getting in the way) was the thing that rippled out across society.

 

That is why I dislike the movie, because it could have gone interesting places from the start but it ultimately ends up like every other romantic comedy. Answering "No" men and women cannot just be friends.

 

Then you have other societal issues.

 

For one, despite schools mixing boys and girls together it still ends up segregated. So the opposite sex is treated as 'the other' even when actual sex isn't a part of the process just yet. It is the unspoken lesson taught in all schools. There are no structures in place at schools to encourage integration between boys and girls, and there should be because 1) It would actually benefit men to have a richer landscape to form a foundation upon for what sort of person they will grow up into (same reason we need better integration of races) and 2) it will go a long way towards equality, because from a young age women get treated as something sexual and desired rather than treated just like a regular person. The otherness of segregation makes being treated like a regular person impossible.

 

Seriously, I've seen it enough times to know that when left alone the pack mentality of boys / men usually ends up putting males onto the same limited worldview path. Be it towards  women, sexuality, other races. The absence of difference makes certain the mentality of the similar background group has a warping effect rather than an enriching one.

 

These men you speak of, I could probably bet you good money that they never once had a female friend in their life. And no, sister's do not count (usual excuse by men on the defense). Again, it bears repeating. From a young age men are put onto a path to see the opposite sex as something different. Not different as something to learn from and be able to integrate that difference to enrich their lives (vice versa also being true for women) but different as something to behave around and towards in a very specific, often disparaging way. Same for women. From a young age they are put onto a path that largely revolves around how men will see and treat you. To say it is all kinds of fucked up is the understatement of life itself.

 

That is not to say choice has no part in this. This is not an excuse for those men. After all, regardless of how society has created an environment that teaches boys / men that very specific lesson, you still have to choose to be an arsehole in how you treat other people. It's just with no other available background to call back on and relate to it is of no surprise that the arsehole choice becomes the easy go to option for many of these people.

 

And let us not start on how other parts of our culture (TV, marketing, music, arts, etc) perpetuates the lesson.

[umbasa]

6 hours ago, StormySky said:

Ugh, I hate this "the one" mentality. It just seems to create so many problems in relationships I witness... people seem to think that "compromise" and "hard work" are magically nullified because "they're The One!!"

 

This one dude kept bothering me like:

"Oh look how much I'm acting like a suck-up to you. I'm DESTINED to make love to....I mean, hold you now and forever"

I told him to bug off and stop being a pain in the butt and he did.

Along with men and women cannot be friends, love's destiny / fate is another myth perpetuated by many aspects of our culture that needs to die.

 

It's not romantic, people. It's restrictive to the types of connections we could be making.

[Philip027]

Honestly, someone who would let a romcom decide for them who they could and couldn't be friends with... isn't someone that's friend material to me to begin with.  How about a little independent thought?

[umbasa]

20 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Honestly, someone who would let a romcom decide for them who they could and couldn't be friends with... isn't someone that's friend material to me to begin with.  How about a little independent thought?

It is not the romcom directly decided it. It's the rippling out of that attitude into greater society. The idea that men and women cannot be friends was already present in society but the movie amplified it. Gave it a voice. On speakerphone. No different to how other aspects of artistic medium affects our culture, like on our fashion.

[umbasa]

12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Isn't the point that Harry and Sally are friends, and then become a couple as well? Harry's stance is 'no', not Nora Ephron's (the writer). She wrote the script pretty much with her friend Rob Reiner, who was the director.

Yes, but I think their intention got completely lost in the delivery of the message. Not least because it perpetuated additional sigh worthy tropes for how men and women are. And the majority of the audience came away with all those limiting tropes intact. As well as later movies. I legit cannot recall a mainstream movie putting forward the idea that men and women can just be friends. By the end, something always happens.

[Lord Jade Cross]

.

 

[umbasa]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well it was a romantic comedy... what do you expect?

 

There are some though: twenty male-female friendships from TV here and a bunch from films here.

A lot of those inclusions are... Highly contestable. I mean, Leon!?! There's a reason why certain sexual tension scenes where cut for the NA release. And Hannibal and Clarice? Ehhhhh. I mean, it is a predator and prey dynamic. There's some big stretches in both those lists but I can see TV being a little better than movies in representing platonic friendships.

 

I'm not saying the film is at fault for being a romantic comedy, just that it did not help and actually amplified the already toxic mentality about friendships between men and women (but also how men and women are).

[Philip027]

2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Nobody's saying that, Philip...

 

Quote

Coming at this from the man viewpoint... I said in another topic about how the movie When Harry Met Sally has been so damaging to the concept of platonic friendships between men and women we still see its effect today regardless if you ever saw the movie or not. Nowadays, the movie is most remembered for 'that scene' but the barely talked about concept of the film (can men and women ever truly be friends without sex getting in the way) was the thing that rippled out across society.

 

That is why I dislike the movie, because it could have gone interesting places from the start but it ultimately ends up like every other romantic comedy. Answering "No" men and women cannot just be friends.

And yes, people actually do buy into that stuff.

[Guest]

A wonderful male/female friendship is in Ever After (Drew Barrymore) - she is friends with a guy from childhood and is allowed to be playful and affectionate with him even after marriage, without her husband being threatened by it. There are lots of other movies and shows that show male/female friendships too. Of course, some people are traditional and won't go with that idea - my Aunt would kill her husband if he had female friends, even though I find such possessiveness hilarious given she's attracted to both men and women so if she followed her own rules, she couldn't have friends at all (but she doesn't). 

 

But, there will always be people who aren't really into the idea of more friends - you can only devote so much time to people and if you already have all the friends you need, then you don't need to make more. And so, the relationship angle is all they're interested in. And if that is going nowhere cause they have a big deal breaker for you, then it makes sense to back away from the relationship. 

[Philip027]

Quote

my Aunt would kill her husband if he had female friends, even though I find such possessiveness hilarious given she's attracted to both men and women so if she followed her own rules, she couldn't have friends at all (but she doesn't). 

I absolutely couldn't be with someone that imposed such a restriction on me.  The vast majority of my friends since HS have been female.

 

I don't feel like I have all that many things that people would call "dealbreakers" but that's definitely one of them for me.  Maybe some other people are willing to cast aside their friendships for the sake of a relationship, but I'm not one of those people.

 

Luckily, the person I'm with now has no problems with it.