Dr Who thread

[ben8884]

A thread for all Whovians. What did you think of the Christmas special?

[Browncoat10]

Can't believe it didn't occur to me to start this thread!

 

Honestly, I wasn't a fan. The Lethbridge-Stewart reveal was nice and Bill was great, as ever, but apart from that...? Slow, self-indulgent, didn't make a huge amount of sense. Standard Moffat fare. Glad to see him off finally. Bit of a shame to say goodbye to Capaldi though.

[crystalheart]

I enjoyed it, it was a nice little epilogue to the series, since Peter was meant to regenerate in the series 10 finale, but then Steven Moffat had to write this Christmas episode because Chris Chibnall still wouldn't have been ready to take over, so I get why not much happened

 

I'm gonna miss Peter Capaldi, as the fourth incarnation that I've grown up with, he was truly wonderful, but I'm excited to see Jodie in her first full series next year - I loved how happy the Doctor was when she saw her face for the first time - I think she's got it in her to be a great Doctor, I just hope that Chris Chibnall's writing will match her potential

[Skittles87]

I can't make up my mind about it. On the one hand, I found it confusing in places (especially since I couldn't remember what exactly had happened to Bill) and, like Browncoat10 said, a bit self-indulgent. On the other hand, I actually cried at the armistice scene. 

[Quintus Crinis]

2 hours ago, Browncoat10 said:

Can't believe it didn't occur to me to start this thread!

 

Honestly, I wasn't a fan. The Lethbridge-Stewart reveal was nice and Bill was great, as ever, but apart from that...? Slow, self-indulgent, didn't make a huge amount of sense. Standard Moffat fare. Glad to see him off finally. Bit of a shame to say goodbye to Capaldi though.

took the words straight out of my mouth.

Standard Moffat self-indulgent nonsense. While I would have liked Capaldi to stay around for a bit longer, I hope that the new doctor and producer can bring a new start to rebooting the show.

[Hermit Advocate]

Not as good as last years, it felt a bit dry to me. I did like the explosions at the end. You'd think that the Doctor who be wary of regenerating inside the control room by now. 

[smack12776]

6 hours ago, crystalheart said:

I loved how happy the Doctor was when she saw her face for the first time 

THIS!

[ben8884]

I liked the Christmas special myself but I pretty much like any time a Doctor is with his old incarnations. Can't say I am a huge fan of Moffat so I think a change of direction is good in this case but I will miss Capaldi. To me is everything a Doctor should be-brilliant, witty, a little pompous but loveable.

So who is everyone's favourite and least favourite Doctor? Also what do you hope Whittaker will be like?

 

My favourite Doctor is difficult but I am going with Tenant. Keep in mind this should really be a tie with Tom Baker and Capaldi but Tenant is just millimeters above them just because some of my favourite episodes are with him...which I know also has a lot to do with Davies but hey, I am giving this to Tenant.

For least favourite Colin Baker. He seems like a nice guy and I am told his later audio books are great but I disliked everything from his clothes to his condeseding voice to his rudeness, but like I said I should check out his audio books.

[Browncoat10]

Hi Ben. Tennant's my favourite too, but he's also the one I grew up on so I'm biased in his favour. I also miles prefer RTD to Moffat, so I'm glad he's leaving. Sad to see Capaldi go though.

 

What do I hope Whittaker will be like? Like the Doctor I guess! I hope Chibnall doesn't actually make a huge thing of the fact that she's a woman now. I don't have a problem with her being a woman in the slightest, I just don't want it to define her. I still want her to be, fundamentally, the Doctor.

 

And yeah, I really should listen to some of the Big Finish audio books too! Anyone know any good ones to start out on?

[fuzzipueo]

1 hour ago, ben8884 said:

So who is everyone's favourite and least favourite Doctor? Also what do you hope Whittaker will be like?

I'm hoping the first thing said about the Doctor's new shape has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she has breasts. It's an ugly realization that Doctor Who fans can be such pigs when it comes to discussing the female shape, one which makes me sad and angry. The Black Scrolls would be ashamed.

 

OK, now that I have that off my chest ...

 

My favorite Doctor is, and has been since I first saw him in Time and the Rani, the Seventh Doctor. I liked that he went from a seemingly inept and mixed up person to a master manipulator and got darker the older he was - this is including the New Adventure books. I was really not happy with what they did with Ace in the the Past Doctor Adventures. It took me a long time before I realized that they hadn't regressed her but gone back to a time before she grew up. Sigh. Still don't like to read those books though.

 

My least favorite is the one most New Whovians grew up watching, Ten. He drives me up the wall and I really want the Time Lordian equivalent of Ritalin(C) for him to take. I don't think he's cute or funny. It's not until Donna shows up and makes him settle down that I actually find him bearable. It also helped that with Donna, there was no romantic subplot nonsense going on and it felt like I was watching Doctor Who again for the first time in a long time.

 

As for the Sixth Doctor ... he takes a bit of getting used to and he is an arrogant, erm, Time Lord. I will say this, as with other Doctors who've not been fan favorites, a lot of the loss of fans can be and should be laid at the feet of the writers and the production crew. Colin Baker's Doctor got gypped on writing, but there are still some genuine gems worth watching in his era: Vengeance on Varos (a commentary on reality TV [which is still accurate even now as all good Who should be]), Timelash, The Two Doctors (there are detractors, of course, grrrr), Mark of the Rani (we get the Rani and the Master in one story!), and Revelation of the Daleks (which is actually very weird and weirdly wonderful). As for Trial of a Time Lord ... hmmm. It has its moments.

 

Audio-wise, I highly recommend the Sixth Doctor with Evalyn Smythe. She's an older character who keeps the Doctor on his toes. Also, if you like the idea of a shape-shifting alien who spends most of his time in the shape of a penguin, you might like stories featuring Frobisher.

 

 

[fuzzipueo]

As for the Christmas special ... I found it OK, though I don't think it quite destroyed the First Doctor's character as badly as a FB friend of mine seemed to think. After all, when the Doctor's time lines cross, he tends to forget once they've uncrossed and the First Doctor has a way to go before he truly shifts his views of humans in general. It was interesting to see how ideas of how we treat people and women in particular have changed since the 1960s though. The whole Christmas Armistice scene was tear inducing though and it was nice to listen to the Doctor's description.

 

Could have lived without the Clara cameo, but Bill's coming back was nice if a bit sour. Sigh. I'll get over it.

[Sea Lemon]

It was enjoyable enough, although I think Peter Capaldi deserved better for his last episode, and turning the first Doctor into a sexist caricature was such lazy writing (I am SO incredibly glad to see the back of Steven Moffat!!). I loved the regeneration, and I'm really really looking forward to seeing where Jodie Whittaker's story goes! 

[penny_dreadful]

I stopped watching Doctor Who at the end of Capaldi's first season....I just could not warm up to him as The Doctor and I can't stand what Moffat did to the show. However, I think I'll give the recent Christmas special a go and since it's a new Doctor and the end of Moffat, I'm hoping for better things to come!!!

[EarthMama]

I actually enjoyed the Christmas special, and bawled when they brought out Clara, because of how Capaldi's face softened when the Doctor's memories of her were restored.   the regeneration scene - meh.  Why do we have to speechify major life events, anyway?  Just get it done!

 

I liked the last season with Capaldi - he finally grew into the character, and I'll be sad to see him go.  Happy they finally regenerated the Doctor into a female, can't wait to see how she plays this new twist.

 

For my favorite?  I have to go with Matt Smith, because the Time of Angels story was brilliant.

[Evren]

I adore Jodie Whitaker, and her first line was so good. "Brillant" indeed. I am so glad to see Moffat going away before he can ruin her too. I think with a different writer I would have liked Capaldi, but as it was I hated him through most of his tenure and streamed all his episodes in a week so I could catch up before the 13th. He used to be a great writer, but he has created such overblown story lines recently, its insane. I loved Missy and the 50th anniversery episode, but most of his other stuff has just been garbage.

[ben8884]

I liked Capaldi but I feel that Moffat did him a miservice. Even in his earlier episodes he gets portrayed as some dottering old man like if Grandpa Simpson was the Doctor.

[Browncoat10]

On 29/12/2017 at 10:52 PM, Evren said:

I adore Jodie Whitaker, and her first line was so good. "Brillant" indeed. I am so glad to see Moffat going away before he can ruin her too. I think with a different writer I would have liked Capaldi, but as it was I hated him through most of his tenure and streamed all his episodes in a week so I could catch up before the 13th. He used to be a great writer, but he has created such overblown story lines recently, its insane. I loved Missy and the 50th anniversery episode, but most of his other stuff has just been garbage.

Yeah, Capaldi himself his awesome, but almost all of his episodes were genuinely terrible and just made noe sense. And I agree that Moffat used to be great. All his stuff under RTD - Empty Child, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, Silence in the Library - were amazing. Like, so good. But since he took over, apart from a couple of exceptions, he's just been nonsensical and self-indulgent. And it's very annoying.

[CozyPosie]

I was torn up after watching the Christmas special. Capaldi is my fave. However, I’m looking forward to see what Jodie Whitaker will do as the Doctor.

[Guest community6seasons]

Why does everyone hate Moffat so much? I agree he does tend to get self indulgent, but still his scripts are always interesting with lots of word play and witty humor and interesting complex plots. Is it like a heart vs mind thing? As in does RT Davies appeal more to the heart and Moffat to the mind? I have come to realise that I tend to go for films, books, serials which appeal to my brain and it reflects in my writing too. I find my writing too dry, concerned more with the technicals stuff as a result of which I fail to appeal to readers. I am trying to develop myself as a person who reacts more with my heart than brain.

[Pamalla-Shay]

moffat like to hurt our feelings and kill off people we love.. thats why

[SpaceDustbin]

For me it feels like the Moffat seasons tend to repeat themselves, and there are too many cop-outs like universe resets, and big red buttons to undo things (still raging and fuming for what they did with the 50th anniversary episode   ), so somehow whatever the Doctor does in season 5-10, not too much of it really seems to have serious repercussions, or they ignore canon.

 

I don't know if any of you know of "The Curse of Fatal Death", a DW spoof written by Moffat in 1999 (which is actually his best piece of writing imho ). It is brilliant, but Moffat has managed to re-use quite some lines, tropes, and other parts of this 20 minute spoof in his 6 seasons of DW writing. And I don't know yet whether I should be impressed, or if it's plain laziness  

(do watch it though - you won't be disappointed )

 

 

[SpaceDustbin]

4 hours ago, Pamalla-Shay said:

moffat like to hurt our feelings and kill off people we love.. thats why

...but how many of those he killed off were actually killed off permanently..

[fuzzipueo]

30 minutes ago, SpaceDustbin said:

5 hours ago, Pamalla-Shay said:

moffat like to hurt our feelings and kill off people we love.. thats why

...but how many of those he killed off were actually killed off permanently..

And that's precisely one of the reasons why I think Moffat is an awful show runner. He's good when there's someone to stomp on his toes and tell him to (no pun intended) let it go. As the show runner, he just could not let characters go away or die in peace. He kept bringing them back - heck he managed to have the last laugh that way in the Christmas special last year (see my post above). Even Jonathan Nathan-Turner wasn't afraid to kill off characters or send them off when the time came.

[Guest community6seasons]

7 hours ago, SpaceDustbin said:

I don't know if any of you know of "The Curse of Fatal Death", a DW spoof written by Moffat in 1999 (which is actually his best piece of writing imho ). It is brilliant, but Moffat has managed to re-use quite some lines, tropes, and other parts of this 20 minute spoof in his 6 seasons of DW writing. And I don't know yet whether I should be impressed, or if it's plain laziness  

(do watch it though - you won't be disappointed )

 

2

Thanks, Space Dustbin. This sounds interesting. Will check it out :).

 

 

All of you have made valid points. But how about we consider just season 5? Isn't that an impressive run of episodes? I liked the season finale too. Admittedly much went over my head, but it was immensely entertaining. I never got that feeling for any of RTD's seasons. 

[Pamalla-Shay]

when he kept bringing them back it hurt even more though

[Browncoat10]

On 19/03/2018 at 1:26 PM, community6seasons said:

Why does everyone hate Moffat so much?

Man, that is a loaded question! I could legitimately write an essay on that. A long one.

 

For me though, it comes down to two(?) things:

 

1. Not only did Moffat get self-indulgent in his writing when he took over, but he also became obsessed with writing things (particularly finales and specials) that were so convoluted as to just not make sense any more. I don't mind something being difficult, I don't mind having to think and lean in to things and work to enjoy a piece of writing... but it has to make sense, even within whatever sci-fi narrative the story is set. RTD almost never suffered from that problem, Moffat did - once he took over - all the time.

 

2. More importantly, RTD just created characters and relationships that I cared about more. Which isn't to say that I don't love Amy, Rory and 11 as individuals and also in relation to each other, it's just... for some reason, RTD's characters were people I was better able to relate to, and engage with, and ultimately fall in love with. (I care a lot about this era of the show, I don't know if you can tell!) Amy, Rory and 11 were good. But Rose was great, Donna was great, and their relationships with 10 were great. The unspoken love between him and Rose (heartbreaking) and the pure, platonic, hilarious friendship between him and Donna. And even though Jackie, Mickey and Wilf were really all quite minor characters, they still felt whole and human and like a family that I wanted to be part of (I know Wilf wasn't related to them but even so.) And that feeling - a family, made up of really well developed side-characters - was something that the Moffat era had no equivalent of.

 

In his defence, Moffat is clearly legitimately a genius. Empty Child, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, Silence in the Library... those couldn't have been written by just anyone. They are some seriously stand-out episodes within the RTD era. He even had a couple in his own era - Heaven Sent could've been a gimmick-y episode that was just plain boring, but it's incredible. Mostly though (in my opinion) when he took over it all went downhill. Cos RTD could do great stories, and heart, and humour, all in one. I definitely don't agree with the notion that he didn't have a run of episodes as good as series 5. I like series 5, but I don't love it. 

 

Look at series 2: New Earth, Tooth and Claw, School Reunion, Girl in the Fireplace, Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, and the unbearably heartbreaking finale that is Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. (Plus I actually love Love and Monsters, but that's a whole other argument!)

 

Series 3 is maybe slightly less consistent, but it does have my favourite story of all time, Human Nature/Family of Blood. And it has Blink. And Smith and Jones. And series 4 has Partners in Crime, Planet of the Ood, The Unicorn and the Wasp, and then possibly my favourite run of 4 episodes: Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, Midnight, Turn Left. That is incredible. And I love the finale, although I understand why it's divisive.

 

I did write an essay! Sorry. Told you it was a loaded question though. I also wrote an article on this topic (partly) for a website a while ago, which is here if anyone's interested. This post is probably better though to be honest, cos I was only 14 when I wrote the article. Also I was trying to be unbiased for the sake of the website, and I am totally not unbiased - RTD is better  

 

Sorry again that this post is so long. It's definitely a sign of a good show that it can incite this much debate though. Means we care. Which is, I think, the most important thing a TV show can make someone do.

[Adachiku]

Yes to all of this. The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances are my two favorite eps, but I can’t think of any 11 or 12 ep I liked.I agree with @fuzzipueo : Moffat is a great writer, but he needs a guiding hand.

And I agree with @Browncoat10, RTD’s characters just had so much heart, you couldn’t help yourself but care about them. In comparison, Clara and (unfortunately) Bill were just bland. No depth, nothing that made me empathize with them.

And yes, the stories just weren’t good. Oftentimes, I thought “cool premise” (like 12’s finale with the Cybermen - what’s the title again?), but as the episode progressed they just got really boring - lots of blabla, lots of “oh this will change EVERYTHING” and then in the end just “yeah, so, that happened, whatever”. (also: could anybody explain to me how and why Nardole came back and what the logic behind those red monks was???)

[fuzzipueo]

3 hours ago, Browncoat10 said:

Look at series 2: New Earth, Tooth and Claw, School Reunion, Girl in the Fireplace, Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, and the unbearably heartbreaking finale that is Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. (Plus I actually love Love and Monsters, but that's a whole other argument!)

 

Series 3 is maybe slightly less consistent, but it does have my favourite story of all time, Human Nature/Family of Blood. And it has Blink. And Smith and Jones. And series 4 has Partners in Crime, Planet of the Ood, The Unicorn and the Wasp, and then possibly my favourite run of 4 episodes: Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, Midnight, Turn Left. That is incredible. And I love the finale, although I understand why it's divisive.

Tooth and Claw - saw it once and never watched it again (the joke got old before it even started and made me cringe and the Matrix style fighting non-monks really made my teeth ache). I liked School Reunion, but as a friend of mine pointed out, Sarah Jane's reaction to seeing the Doctor and her interaction with Rose was over the top and out of character. I still like it though. It has Anthony Head. You can't go wrong with Anthony Head (Giles in Buffy). I think one of the reasons The Girl in the Fire Place works as well as it does is because it's not full of narrative excess like a lot of Moffat's later writing, in part because he's not in charge and someone else can tell him "No" which I'm sure RTD did on a regular basis.

 

Impossible Planet/Satan Pit are possibly the best stories of series 2 Doctor Who, hands down. Also has some of the best music for the series at that point.

 

Now Human Nature/Family of Blood - wow. Both the book, New Adventures: Human Nature (1995) and the TV stories were, fortunately, written by the same person, Paul Cornell, so there was a good deal of consistency between the stories. A lot of changes too, thanks to differences in characters (the 10th Doctor as opposed to the 7th Doctor and Martha as opposed to Benny Summerfield*), etc., but still a well done story. However, being the snob I am, I prefer the book.

 

_________________________________________

*Professor Benny Summerfield is a professor of .... Archaeology. I did not like the character (first story Love and War also by Paul Cornell) and in fact my reaction to River Song mirrors my reaction to Benny, hitting all the same cues, which makes me wonder if one didn't inspire the other ....

 

[Browncoat10]

16 hours ago, Adachiku said:

And I agree with @Browncoat10, RTD’s characters just had so much heart, you couldn’t help yourself but care about them. In comparison, Clara and (unfortunately) Bill were just bland. No depth, nothing that made me empathize with them.

And yes, the stories just weren’t good. Oftentimes, I thought “cool premise” (like 12’s finale with the Cybermen - what’s the title again?), but as the episode progressed they just got really boring - lots of blabla, lots of “oh this will change EVERYTHING” and then in the end just “yeah, so, that happened, whatever”. (also: could anybody explain to me how and why Nardole came back and what the logic behind those red monks was???)

I agree about Clara. I actually really liked Bill, and I thought that last series was probably the best of the Moffat-era (my favourite anyway), but yeah, she still couldn't touch Rose or Donna. And I totally agree about premise vs execution. He had loads of great ideas (12 had two finales with Cybermen, Dark Water/Death in Heaven and more recently World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls.) But almost always, the execution was exactly as you describe. Nonsensical, huge stakes, technobabble, no heart. Though to be fair, I didn't find that with World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, both of which I think are excellent.

 

The monks though? Not a clue. And not a clue about Nardole's return either. Don't think it ever made much sense. That's another thing - with Moffat you had to watch for years and years for a payoff that never actually made sense, RTD you could enjoy self-contained episodes. Much more friendly to the casual viewer. Don't really know why I find that appealing, seeing as I'm not a casual viewer, but never mind!

15 hours ago, fuzzipueo said:

Tooth and Claw - saw it once and never watched it again (the joke got old before it even started and made me cringe and the Matrix style fighting non-monks really made my teeth ache). I liked School Reunion, but as a friend of mine pointed out, Sarah Jane's reaction to seeing the Doctor and her interaction with Rose was over the top and out of character. I still like it though. It has Anthony Head. You can't go wrong with Anthony Head (Giles in Buffy). I think one of the reasons The Girl in the Fire Place works as well as it does is because it's not full of narrative excess like a lot of Moffat's later writing, in part because he's not in charge and someone else can tell him "No" which I'm sure RTD did on a regular basis.

 

Impossible Planet/Satan Pit are possibly the best stories of series 2 Doctor Who, hands down. Also has some of the best music for the series at that point.

 

Now Human Nature/Family of Blood - wow. Both the book, New Adventures: Human Nature (1995) and the TV stories were, fortunately, written by the same person, Paul Cornell, so there was a good deal of consistency between the stories. A lot of changes too, thanks to differences in characters (the 10th Doctor as opposed to the 7th Doctor and Martha as opposed to Benny Summerfield*), etc., but still a well done story. However, being the snob I am, I prefer the book.

 

_________________________________________

*Professor Benny Summerfield is a professor of .... Archaeology. I did not like the character (first story Love and War also by Paul Cornell) and in fact my reaction to River Song mirrors my reaction to Benny, hitting all the same cues, which makes me wonder if one didn't inspire the other ....

 

Fair enough, Tooth and Claw is very divisive, and I get why. I just think it's a great, fun, funny self-contained story. (Agree about the monks though.) And I also agree about Sarah Jane and her interactions with Rose, though it has a pretty great payoff when they bond by mocking him. And yes, Anthony Head! (Is there a Buffy thread on AVEN? There should be!)

 

I do love Human Nature the book, but I prefer the episodes. Paul Cornell is a genius, but RTD had a big contribution to those episodes (and every other episode). Anyone else read The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter? It's literally just hundreds of pages of e-mails between RTD and Benjamin Cook, written while RTD was working on series 4, right up to when he leaves the show. Genuinely fascinating. Also great for writing tips, if anyone's interested.

 

Also how does everyone else feel about Chris Chibnall taking over by the way? I'm... very mixed. For Torchwood he wrote some truly amazing but also truly terrible episodes. I feel basically indifferent about all his Doctor Who eps. And Broadchurch series 1 was good, 2 was awful, and 3 was... fine. So yeah, very mixed. Although, one thing that really stands out for me of his is the scene between 11 and Amy sat by the Thames in The Power of Three. This is it. The ending of the episode is so bad (talk about deus ex machina) but in that scene he totally nailed the relationship between 11 and Amy, the love, the sadness, the regret. I just think it's really well observed, and it gives me hope that he can make this show... if not what it was (I don't think that's possible for me, because the nostalgia element is too strong), then better than it has been under Moffat.

[fuzzipueo]

Here's one of the reasons why I prefer the book (other than having my personal favorite Doctor):

Quote

Human Nature
Paul Cornell 1995

I’ve found out that being the Doctor ... it’s not about having special knowledge or abilities.
It’s about not being cruel. It’s about not being afraid.
There are monsters out there, yes. Terrible things. But you don’t have to become one in order to defeat them.
You can be peaceful in the face of their cruelty. You can win by being cleverer than they are.

Now, I get why they added the Ice and Fire quote and I get that the 10th Doctor is very different from the 7th because he's survived the Time War and the 7th hasn't yet, but this is what I think of when I think of the Doctor and always has been. "But you don't have to become one (a monster) in order to defeat them" contrasts very sharply with how the Doctor deals with the Family in the episode. It actually makes me sad that he's gone that route.

 

Also, the 7th Doctor purposely becomes human, not because he's running and hiding from someone, but because he wants to further understand what it means to be human and how they interact with each other. The Family only finds out after the Doctor's essentially become human that there's time tech on Earth and they, being the scavengers they are sense an opportunity ...