IronHamster Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 52 minutes ago, LadyFie said: Yes, we do, and it's really important and really healthy. Because you shouldn't let other people decide about your fundamental needs. If your lifestyles don't fit together, just break up, it's really better that way. And if you (also @IronHamster) really can't imagine how horrible it is to be forced to do such intimate physical things with someone if you really don't want to do it: I recommend you take a broomstick and shove it up your *** and then reconsider your opinions. I'm not even being sarcastic, try it and you'll see why we don't want that. Um. I think you missed something. The issue is that body autonomy is indeed important. But, equal. I think we should all accept equality as a basis of human rights. I have every right to fuck as my wife has to not fuck. We need to be seen as equal. Link to post Share on other sites
IronHamster Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Kai99 said: IronHamster, if I were you, I would tell your wife that we need to have a serious heart to heart. Schedule it. Make that heart to heart seem differently from your other heart-to-hearts. Make her feel the weight of that discussion. Schedule it when you two are alone, no kids, over a small lunch or dinner. When it starts, tell her that you have something to say and that she can not interrupt you till you made your say. Than explain to her how these two decades have been, really explain how deprived and hurt you felt about the lack of sex, how you cant go without it anymore, and how you do not wan to make her. Tell her the solution(open relationship), how she and the kids will always be your number one priority despite it, and that she could make the rules of the open relationship. Tell her that you will not go against her rules and that you will be completely upfront with what will go on. Make her feel comfortable by telling her that your not trying to replace her, you are simply getting your sexual needs meet. That is actually pretty close to what she denied to me, twice. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 4 hours ago, IronHamster said: So is "sexual abandonment." An argument that's only ever used to justify divorce. Something you should've done before cheating on your wife. 4 hours ago, IronHamster said: Um. I think you missed something. The issue is that body autonomy is indeed important. But, equal. I think we should all accept equality as a basis of human rights. I have every right to fuck as my wife has to not fuck. We need to be seen as equal. You are free to have sex with consenting parties, yes. Nobody is saying otherwise. We're just pointing out that you broke your promise to your wife when you cheated on her, and that's a shitty thing you didn't have to do. And no, your wife refusing to have sex with you does not make you a victim, nor does it justify your cheating on her. Link to post Share on other sites
IronHamster Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Camicon said: An argument that's only ever used to justify divorce. Something you should've done before cheating on your wife. You are free to have sex with consenting parties, yes. Nobody is saying otherwise. We're just pointing out that you broke your promise to your wife when you cheated on her, and that's a shitty thing you didn't have to do. And no, your wife refusing to have sex with you does not make you a victim, nor does it justify your cheating on her. You cannot avoid your binary sadistic thinking, nor overlook the fact that she cheated me first. Admit both things so we can move on and address the real issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 9 hours ago, IronHamster said: You cannot avoid your binary sadistic thinking, nor overlook the fact that she cheated me first. Admit both things so we can move on and address the real issues. An amicable divorce is better than an irreconcilable marriage. I speak from experience. And your wife did not cheat you of anything, because a marriage is not a promise to have sex and she does not owe you her body. There are no "real issues" to move on to. You cheated on your wife. You were wrong to do so. End of. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Quote a marriage is not a promise to have sex In UK law, 'irretrievable breakdown of the marriage' is a cause for divorce, and amongst other things, this can include Quote Your husband/wife has behaved in a way that it is unreasonable to expect you to continue to live together. Behaviour can be unpleasant verbal abuse such as name calling, a suspicion of an affair, lack of sexual relationship or more serious behaviour such as violence http://www.divorce-rights.co.uk/the-divorce-process/grounds-for-divorce.html Or from the government's website on reasons for an annulment (https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage): Quote You can annul a marriage if: it wasn’t consummated - you haven’t had sex with the person you married since the wedding Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: In UK law, 'irretrievable breakdown of the marriage' is a cause for divorce, and amongst other things, this can include http://www.divorce-rights.co.uk/the-divorce-process/grounds-for-divorce.html Or from the government's website on reasons for an annulment (https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage): None of which means that marriage is a promise to have sex with the person you're marrying. It's a recognition that most people have some kind of desire for sex and so, since monogamy does not allow for having multiple sexual partners at the same time, someone who is in a sexless marriage should be allowed to leave that marriage if they want. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 I'm impressed you manage to interpret 'no sex is grounds for divorce or annulment' as 'marriage is not a promise to have sex'. It's like interpreting 'not paying rent is grounds for eviction' as 'taking up a tenancy offer is not a promise to pay rent'. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 hours ago, IronHamster said: You cannot avoid your binary sadistic thinking, nor overlook the fact that she cheated me first. "But she started it!!1!" sounds like something a 5yo would say to justify their actions. Come on. Other than that, "X is going to happen once Y happens" is a promise, of course. I totally see why one would be pissed when they were told "Sex only after marriage", only to find out that their partner said "April fools! Still not going to happen!" after actually getting married. This isn't even a sex-related issue. Replace "sex" with "kids" and think about it. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: I'm impressed you manage to interpret 'no sex is grounds for divorce or annulment' as 'marriage is not a promise to have sex'. It's like interpreting 'not paying rent is grounds for eviction' as 'taking up a tenancy offer is not a promise to pay rent'. If you can find a marriage certificate that says "[SPOUSE A] promises to have sex with [SPOUSE B]", then you're more than welcome to post a screencap here. You continue to overlook the fact that marriage is a legal contract. A "promise" in a legal contract is not of the kind "I promise I'll take out the trash tonight". A "promise" in a legal contract is an obligation that you are legally required to follow through on. But a person cannot sign away their inalienable right to bodily sovereignty, so marriage cannot be a promise to have sex with your spouse. The most is can be is a promise to not have sex with anyone but your spouse. You can enter a contract that obligates you to pay someone money. You cannot enter a contract that obligates you to pay someone your body. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 How do you interpret "No sex is grounds for annulment" then? Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 31 minutes ago, Grinchmer said: How do you interpret "No sex is grounds for annulment" then? Most people have a desire for sex. If in a marriage, a legal relationship that requires monogamy to remain valid, a person is not having sex with their spouse because their spouse does not want to have sex, they should be allowed to end the marriage. "Annulment" specifically arose as a concept because of religions that didn't want to abandon their "divorce is a great evil" stance, but also wanted to allow their members a way to end a marriage for whatever reason. Link to post Share on other sites
Snao Cone Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Camicon said: marriage, a legal relationship that requires monogamy to remain valid Does a marriage need to be monogamous to be legally valid? I would assume it can still be valid in spite of adultery, and especially with an agreed upon openness to extramarital sex, as long as neither spouse wants to divorce. I think there are points we can all (or most of us) agree upon: - Sex requires consent even within a marriage. - A lack of sexual fulfillment is a valid, but not automatic or inevitable, grounds for divorce. - Adultery is a valid, but not automatic or inevitable, grounds for divorce. - People have the right to be hurt by things and don't owe their (ex) partner forgiveness. - People have the right to not feel guilty for what they've done even if their (ex) partner is hurt. While I can understand how not getting sexual fulfillment from a spouse who knows that can feel like you're being cheated by them, in my opinion it's still quite different from cheating on them via extramarital relationships. Two wrongs don't make a right. Steps should be taken to relieve marital strain before getting to that point. Resentment isn't healthy for anyone, and neither is vilifying a partner by whom you* feel wronged. It's important for you to understand why you feel a certain way and why you did something, but it's not required of your partner to feel the same way. People are imperfect, but should still be allowed to move on with their lives. *general "you" Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 A marriage can absolutely be a promise to have sex. When lack of sex is grounds for both divorce and *legal* (not religious) annulment, logically, willingness to have sex must be part of the marriage contract. But it doesn't mean it legalises marital rape. It simply means that a blanket refusal to have sex as part of marriage (*not one offs on specific occasions) means the contract is broken. In the end, we're saying the same thing. I just object to this absurd implication that marriage doesn't have anything to do with expectations of sex. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 34 minutes ago, Snao Cone said: Does a marriage need to be monogamous to be legally valid?* *snip* Poor wording on my part. Violation of a marriage contract, such as by cheating on your spouse, gives your spouse the right to invalidate the marriage. 4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: A marriage can absolutely be a promise to have sex. When lack of sex is grounds for both divorce and *legal* (not religious) annulment, logically, willingness to have sex must be part of the marriage contract. But it doesn't mean it legalises marital rape. It simply means that a blanket refusal to have sex as part of marriage (*not one offs on specific occasions) means the contract is broken. In the end, we're saying the same thing. I just object to this absurd implication that marriage doesn't have anything to do with expectations of sex. No, it can't. > Marriages are legal contracts, > A "promise" to have sex within a marriage contract would be a legal obligation for one party to have sex with another, > You cannot sign away your right to bodily sovereignty, > Therefore, marriage contracts cannot have one party "promise" sex to another. Yes, there is a general expectation that two people who marry will have sex with each other, but that is an expectation which exists outside the bounds of the marriage contract. People have a right to end a marriage when their partner is not having sex with them because we - as a society - have decided that cheating on your spouse is wrong, but expecting a person to go their entire life without fulfilling their sexual desires isn't reasonable. It's a work-around. Not confirmation that marriage is a promise to have sex with your spouse. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 If 'not doing x' is grounds for a breach of contract, then logically 'doing x' is part of the contract, even if it's not explicit. It *doesn't* then mean that the consequence of not doing 'x' is physically forcing that person to do x. It means that person has breached the contact,and the consequences of that breach might be anything from the nothing at all to whatever the law allows. And the law doesn't allow rape, because as you point out, it's to do with bodily inviolability. There's no contradiction between sex being part of a marriage contract, and marital rape being illegal. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, Telecaster68 said: If 'not doing x' is grounds for a breach of contract, then logically 'doing x' is part of the contract, even if it's not explicit. It *doesn't* then mean that the consequence of not doing 'x' is physically forcing that person to do x. It means that person has breached the contact,and the consequences of that breach might be anything from the nothing at all to whatever the law allows. And the law doesn't allow rape, because as you point out, it's to do with bodily inviolability. There's no contradiction between sex being part of a marriage contract, and neutral take being illegal. A divorce or annulment on the grounds of "my partner won't have sex with me" is not a breach of contract by either party. A divorce does not mean that the marriage contract has been breached, it is simply the process by which a marriage contract is voided. Now, consider, if you can sign away your bodily sovereignty as a part of a contract then you are setting the legal precedent that people are able to sign away their bodily sovereignty. If you can sign away your bodily sovereignty as part of a legal contract, then you can sign away your bodily sovereignty as a condition for breaching a contract. Do you see what that could lead to? A contract that obligates you to have sex with someone sets the legal groundwork for things like slavery, in the form of "indentured servitude". That's why it isn't legal. That's why marriage contracts cannot "promise" or obligate someone to have sex. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 " if you can sign away your bodily sovereignty as a part of a contract" You can't. That's my point. Signing a contract says you agree to the terms of the contract. You can withdraw your agreement, and there are consequences if the other party wishes to enforce them, but they never include legal rape. You are not signing away your bodily integrity. Yes a divorce is a process, and part of that process is a court examining whether certain conditions apply in order to make the divorce decree, and one of them can be lack of sex. That's just a fact. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said: " if you can sign away your bodily sovereignty as a part of a contract" You can't. That's my point. Signing a contract says you agree to the terms of the contract. You can withdraw your agreement, and there are consequences if the other party wishes to enforce them, but they never include legal rape. You are not signing away your bodily integrity. If the terms of a legal contract "promise" (read: obligate) you to have sex with someone then you have signed away your bodily sovereignty. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 You've given consent, which you can withdraw, and that withdrawal has consequences. Those consequences do not include legalised rape. If you commission a builder to build you a house, and he signs a contract to do it, but then changes his mind, it means he's breached your contact and the bit of the contract that says you have to pay him no longer applies either. It doesn't mean you have the right to beat the shit out of him. Link to post Share on other sites
vega57 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 What "contract" are we talking about? There is no "contract" between spouses that says that sex when *you* want MUST take place as often as *you" want, or in the way that *you* want, PERIOD, for the duration of the marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Nobody's said there is. UK divorce law however says that lack of sex can be a reason for irretrievable breakdown of a marriage, which needs to be demonstrated in order to get a divorce. Link to post Share on other sites
Lucas Monteiro Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 On 06/12/2017 at 5:03 PM, IronHamster said: Malthusian used to think the world could never possibly sustain eight billion people. Well, here we are, producing plenty of food because enough smart people figured out how. The smart people will make it possible for my grandchildren to live in a world with fifty billion people. Overpopulation is a sci-fi joke. What ? I am sorry, but you that's not quite correct. "Sustain eight billion", where are we sustaining ? Do you know that millions (if not billion) of people are dying of hungry ? This planet will not be capable to hold fifty billion of people, and even if our population come close to this, one time or another, everything will collapse. We will have to move to another planet, or our species will pretty much die. The future generations are going to have the worst time, because we are dooming this planet, without no coming back. if you want, I can show you scientific researches about that. Because no matter how much smart people there is in this world, there is more idiotic people. Your phrase about overpopulation being an sci-fi joke is in fact the true joke here, go study more to understand before speaking so open about complicated things. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com.br/&httpsredir=1&article=2929&context=gc_etds Link to post Share on other sites
IronHamster Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, vega57 said: What "contract" are we talking about? There is no "contract" between spouses that says that sex when *you* want MUST take place as often as *you" want, or in the way that *you* want, PERIOD, for the duration of the marriage. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465168/jewish/The-Marriage-Contract-Ketubah.htm Link to post Share on other sites
IronHamster Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 56 minutes ago, Lucas Monteiro said: What ? I am sorry, but you that's not quite correct. "Sustain eight billion", where are we sustaining ? Do you know that millions (if not billion) of people are dying of hungry ? This planet will not be capable to hold fifty billion of people, and even if our population come close to this, one time or another, everything will collapse. We will have to move to another planet, or our species will pretty much die. The future generations are going to have the worst time, because we are dooming this planet, without no coming back. if you want, I can show you scientific researches about that. Because no matter how much smart people there is in this world, there is more idiotic people. Your phrase about overpopulation being an sci-fi joke is in fact the true joke here, go study more to understand before speaking so open about complicated things. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com.br/&httpsredir=1&article=2929&context=gc_etds Um. Certainly this is a joke. Starvation is a problem with food distribution. At 16 billion, it is a problem with resource allocation to produce. Look at the US, where we grow grass in our yards and tell me we are anywhere close to production capacity. In Africa, talk to any UN official and they will tell you privately that the natives starve because they cannot get their act together. Link to post Share on other sites
Camicon Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said: You've given consent- Consent to sex is not given when you get married. Link to post Share on other sites
TheAP Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 How is marriage a promise of sex? Sure, most married couple have sex, but that's because most people are sexual. It's not a requirement for marriage. Two asexuals can get married and not have sex. Did OP's wife actually promise him sex? Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Yes. Link to post Share on other sites
IronHamster Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Shan1127 said: This thread is just sickening. It's also ruined any hope I ever had for a decent relationship. I've noticed that most of the people agreeing with this narcissistic idiot are hypersexuals who must clearly have resentment towards their asexual partners. If you can't be bothered to even understand the full definition of asexuality and don't respect or even believe in asexual people then get your ass off aven right now. Let me give you some advice you can use. Do not date sexual people. Period. Ever. Link to post Share on other sites
Shan1127 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Don't worry I don't plan to. You just became terrible representation for every sexual person ever. I also want to offer you some advice. Never ever date another asexual ever again, get divorced and if your mistress isn't in an open relationship I'd advise she gets divorced too. Maybe you two could even swap 😂😂 Link to post Share on other sites
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