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Is sex really that important for a relationship?

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Telecaster68

A key difference between an asexual and a sexual isn't whether they have sex, it's whether it's a meaningful part of their relationship. Ficto is saying that she wanted to have her nipples sucked as part of her relationship, and regretted she felt it wasn't possible. That makes it a meaningful part of her relationship. Therefore, it's something a sexual person would want, and an asexual wouldn't.

 

She's saying, apparently, an asexual could want this. It makes no sense.

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Telecaster68

Ficto...

 

Those two questions apply here:

 

Would to be bothered if you never had your nipples sucked?

 

If your partner refused to suck them, would you be upset?

 

It's clear your answer to these is yes.

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Serran
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree it's everything,  and the context here is that both Serran and Ficto said that they wanted this to be part of their relationship. In other words it has some emotional value to them. 

 

Mmm, you're focusing on breast/genital play and I specifically said I did not want either of those things so not sure why you're putting my name while talking about penis and nipple play.

 

Asexuals can enjoy kissing, or BDSM play, or hugs, or the comfort of being able to be around their partner while naked. Neither me nor Pan have ever argued against this. Because they are not partnered sexual activities. PiV is a partnered sexual activity, aimed at sexual stimulation and sexual feelings are kind of required to enjoy it. Neither of us have ever said asexuals must only give pecks, side hugs and want to keep their bodies hidden.

 

What would you call someone that wanted no sex, never wanted their breasts touched, never wanted their genitals touched, never got aroused, never masturbated, hated every second of sex, hated being sexually stimulated and got to the point having sex made them so anxiety filled being around their partner that they actually dreaded when their partner came home, because having to do anything sexual (as in, be touched sexually, or sex, or touching their partner sexually, not kissing) was just so awful they couldn't take it anymore, but still cared about their partner and wanted to kiss/hug/cuddle if sex disappeared from the equation and lacking those things caused distressed? Cause, right now, it sounds like you're saying that is 100% a normal sexual person to you as long as they like kissing, hugs or anything since you are judging by what would be sexual misconduct legally with a stranger or employee. :P Which, I mean, OK...I guess we could put asexual down to touch averse people who have no interest in being physically affectionate with anyone. But, that seems a tad extreme to me. 

 

If an asexual wanted to sit in their boyfriends lap and kiss him, but never go further, I would absolutely not argue they wanted partnered sexual activities and must be sexual. The reason I ditched the idea for myself is because I currently do want to go further than that, I do get aroused, I do have desires of a sexual nature. Therefore, I personally don't think I fit the label, since I want more than just kissing, hugs and cuddles now. In the past though, yeah I considered the extreme disinterest in anything more sexual than kissing (which I really don't consider a sexual desire if it's not turning you on :P  ) and lack of any sort of arousal beyond "OK, if you touch there enough you can make moisture happen so it's physically possible, grats, can we get it over with already?" enough reason to not consider myself a sexual person. I'm not entirely sure why that is confusing or "nonsense", just cause I like sit over a guy  to kiss him. By that logic, the fact I play with my dog by sitting over her to kiss her belly is sexual, cause both have always just been fun and bonding and with my exes it was really not any more of a turn on than it is with my dog... :mellow:

 

4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

 

Would you employ a medical professional to suck your nipples? 

 

 

That's a bad test for if something is sexual. There are medical professionals employed at doctors offices to manually stimulate patients to orgasm, or even have PiV/oral sex with their patients, if they have severe medical issues preventing these things. This is perfectly legal and not considered prostitution because it is a medical professional you are paying to "cure" your issue, so it's considered a medical treatment, rather than sex, by law. Which, I guess if we're judging what asexuals can do by law, then PiV, manual stimulation and oral sex to the point of orgasm are all non-sexual under certain situations. 

 

 

2 hours ago, IronHamster said:

 Ask any lawyer what would happen if you played with your employees breasts or cocks at work.  

Ask any lawyer what would happen if you kissed an employee at work. Or gave them a very long, close hug. Or got changed in front of them. So, to be asexual, one has to be completely 100% non-romantic non-sensual and want no sort of physical affection or intimacy, not just not want sex or any sort of sexually pleasing activities? Even asexual aromantics tend to want to do things that would be inappropriate with an employee. Because... we're not judging personal interactions by corporate standards. It would be rather silly to do so. I would get fired for sexual misconduct if I hugged someone from the front, at work I'm restricted to hugging their sides because the accidental breast/genital touch of a hug is considered sexual harassment (we are taught how to hug properly). There is no way I'm going to say "You can't be asexual if you enjoy hugs from the front!" though... 

 

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Alejandrogynous

I can understand the breast/nipple thing, in that it's just a part of the body that's often sore and feels nice to get massaged. Not to speak for Ficto but I imagine it's less that she was unfulfilled in her relationship because she couldn't have her nipples sucked specifically and more that she couldn't even be open with her partner about something that hurt and ask him to help. I love back massages but if my partner constantly tried to take massages to the 'next level' and make them sexual, I would stop asking for/accepting them, and it would put distance between us. Not because I desperately need that massage to be happy but because I can't even ask my partner, someone who I'm supposed to feel the most comfortable and intimate with, for something as a basic as working out a knot in my shoulder after a long day.

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alibali

Oh I remember feeling that way about massages. 

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imnotafreakofnature!
On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:32 AM, WhyCantIBeACat said:

While perhaps factually correct the tone is somewhat elitist and condescending/insulting to the vast majority of the population of this planet.

Now you know how we asexuals feel about how sexual people treat us!

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imnotafreakofnature!
On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 12:26 PM, jess21 said:

As a sexual person - yes! For me personally, what makes sex so important isn't even /just/ the actual physical act of it - it's more the physical and emotional closeness that comes with it, the "being crazy about each other", to put it in simple terms. Showing your partner how into them you are and being shown they're into you is the sexiest thing in the world. And of course there's a million ways to show each other that, but sexual closeness does tend to be a really important part of it for sexual folks.

I can't speak for other aces, but for me, sex doesn't make me feel closer to my partner. In fact, it actually makes me feel farther away because I've had to take part yet again in something I don't want to take part in, but have to if I want my husband to be happy. (Yes, I'm a married ace, but only because I didn't know asexuality was even a thing until eight years into my second marriage. If I'd known, I certainly would never have gotten married again - at least not to a sexual person).

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IronHamster

I still think there are other ways to deal with sexual-asexual relationships other than one partner being compelled to do things they do not want to do.  

 

Are there any cuckold or cuckquean relationships on asexuality.org?  This seems to me to be one solution to keeping the marriage healthy.  

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imnotafreakofnature!
On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:02 PM, Always looking for answers said:

I'm in the process of finding out whether or not I'm asexual, but I'm leaning towards a 'yes, I am'.

 

1. For sexuals obviously yes. For me no, but it becomes important in a negative way because I would rather be hungry for a few days than to gave sex. But in most relationships it's not much of choice, I've always felt pressured to do something I hated and that hurt me. I'm not saying the guys I've been with actually forced me to have sex with them (well, at least not all of them), but knowing there would be fights or a break up never made me feel I had much a choice either. I wish it wasn't important though, because I feel sex has caused a depression several times in my life, at some points up to suicidal thoughts. 

 

2. It's like this dark cloud that's always there. No matter where I go, I always feel broken, different and damaged because I'm disgusted by something so many people find so important. And I just don't get it. I don't understand what's so magical about something people are willing to hurt one another for. I wish I understood, that would make it a lot easier. 

 

3. I'm not sure if I'm able to compromise anymore. When I'd be having sex, I'd feel used, like an object. It doesn't make me feel connected or loved, it makes me feel like my body isn't mine anymore so I zone out, try to think of other things so I don't have to be there with my head. I don't even feel human anymore. What's even worse: Even though I know sex is important for sexuals and I really wish I could understand why that is, if my partner would be having sex with me I'd really hate him for making me do something I'm actually repulsed by and puts me in physical and emotional pain. For me sex and love don't go together. 

So my compromise (not sure if it actually is a compromise)  would be: 'find someone else to have sex with', even though I'm probably scared that he will find someone else not just for sex, but for the entire relationship. 

I could have written this myself! That's exactly how I feel - men have treated me like my only value as a human being is between my legs, and they view me as nothing more than an object on which to gratify themselves. My husband insists he loves me, and even though he doesn't understand how I feel, he seems to think that as long as he's not hurting me, I should be more willing. He doesn't understand that he IS hurting me by expecting me to put out when that's the last thing I want to do. His own ability is diminishing (he has E.D.), but he seems to think that just because I'm still perfectly capable, that automatically means I should want to. One of his "life slogans" is "Be true to yourself," but I'm not supposed to be true to myself if it means depriving him of what he considers an undeniable right.

 

Having said all that, I also realize that I'm not the only one who matters, so I do my best to compromise. Sadly, it's never enough for him. He doesn't feel loved without sex, and I don't feel loved with it. Like you, I'm tempted to tell him to find someone else to have sex with, but I really don't think he would. (It goes against his religious beliefs. Besides, I think he also realizes that a woman who wants sex as much as he does probably wouldn't be willing to put up with his limitations.) Everyone always says that all relationships are about compromise, but not all compromises works out, either. Compromise rarely creates a win-win.

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vega57
19 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

Are there any cuckold or cuckquean relationships on asexuality.org?  This seems to me to be one solution to keeping the marriage healthy.  

Cheating keeps a marriage "healthy"?  :blink:

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IronHamster
15 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Cheating keeps a marriage "healthy"?  :blink:

It is not cheating if both partners are in on it, now, is It? 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
9 hours ago, roland.o said:

There are some companys that manufacture custom-made bras. This one here, for example, even claims to be affordable:

https://www.optifitbra.com/

 

Or you could make your own...

https://www.vogue.com/article/custom-bra-trend-cupperware-parties-boob-camp

 

And some are 3D-printing cups...

https://www.3ders.org/articles/20160424-bra-theory-is-developing-3d-modeled-bras-to-give-you-the-perfect-fit.html

Haha yeah if I could afford to pay for a fitted bra I'd do that, but if you Google macromastia and look on the wiki page (though it's pretty graphic!) you'll see what the issue is, the breasts themselves are a shape that you can't really make 'cups' to hold them in any comfortable way!! They'll always have to be folded and squished etc to be contained when you get to these sizes of that shape!! Thanks for the suggestions though :)

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vega57
2 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

It is not cheating if both partners are in on it, now, is It? 

Umm....yeah.  It's still cheating. 

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IronHamster
17 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Umm....yeah.  It's still cheating. 

No, it's not.  Nyanyanyanyanya nya.

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Serran
27 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Umm....yeah.  It's still cheating. 

It's not cheating if both people 100% agree to being open. Poly is ethical non-monogamy, as are open relationships (poly = can love, open is more about sex). Which, I'm guessing is what IronHamster is trying to say? 

 

And yes, there are several people who are poly/open on AVEN. Some people find that works, other don't cause monogamy is something that matters to some people, whether they want sex or not. 

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vega57
8 minutes ago, Serran said:

It's not cheating if both people 100% agree to being open. Poly is ethical non-monogamy, as are open relationships (poly = can love, open is more about sex). Which, I'm guessing is what IronHamster is trying to say? 

 

And yes, there are several people who are poly/open on AVEN. Some people find that works, other don't cause monogamy is something that matters to some people, whether they want sex or not. 

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  *patiently waits for Serran to throw rotten vegetables in my direction* :D

 

The definition of adultery is:  "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse". 

 

Even if both spouses agree that it's ok for them to have sex with other people, it doesn't mean that they're NOT committing adultery. 

 

We don't get to re-write definitions. 

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Serran
3 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  *patiently waits for Serran to throw rotten vegetables in my direction* :D

 

The definition of adultery is:  "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse". 

 

Even if both spouses agree that it's ok for them to have sex with other people, it doesn't mean that they're NOT committing adultery. 

 

We don't get to re-write definitions. 

Cheating and adultery are not the same thing :P 

 

cheat
CHēt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
  1. 1.
    act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
    "she always cheats at cards"
     
     
     
    The reason cheating is cheating is because it's dishonest and breaking an agreement with your partner. Cheating can happen in a marriage, or a dating relationship. Cheating can even happen within a poly relationship, if the agreement is broken. 
     
    Adultery is more a legal and/or religious thing. Cheating is more the ethical and/or moral thing. 
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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
11 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

If I was in a relationship with a woman who wanted me to suck her nipples and wanted to get my cock hard, absolutely it's sexual. I might not be getting what I want sexually, but it's certainly not platonic is it?

 

Would you employ a medical professional to suck your nipples? Or suggest to a platonic friend you hold his cock for a bit because it's 'cool'?

 

However you slice it, those things are sexual.

 

8 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree it's everything,  and the context here is that both Serran and Ficto said that they wanted this to be part of their relationship. In other words it has some emotional value to them. 

 

If it was PIV they were missing,  Ficto would be quick to criticise someone who claimed 'but this isn't sexual'. I've seen her do it. 

 

8 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

A key difference be"tween an asexual and a sexual isn't whether they have sex, it's whether it's a meaningful part of their relationship. Ficto is saying that she wanted to have her nipples sucked as part of her relationship, and regretted she felt it wasn't possible. That makes it a meaningful part of her relationship. Therefore, it's something a sexual person would want, and an asexual wouldn't.

 

She's saying, apparently, an asexual could want this. It makes no sense.

 

8 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Ficto...

 

Those two questions apply here:

 

Would to be bothered if you never had your nipples sucked?

 

If your partner refused to suck them, would you be upset?

 

It's clear your answer to these is yes.

There is a lot to respond to here and I'm on my phone but I'll see if I can do this without butchering it. I'd also like to say that when I say 'sexual people' in this post, I'm not referring to you all! Just those who have a lot of trouble with the concept of sensual asexuality.

 

I've had this convo here many times and it generally doesn't get THAT far, because the sexual person seems suddenly unable to comprehend that they themselves, as well as almost every other sexual on the planet, would be utterly sexually imcompatible with a sensual asexual. Neither partner would be able to get their needs met, both would end up miserable. But somehow this stops mattering if an ace female enjoys walking around the house naked and being touched sensually as a result, enjoys breast stimulation in the same way she does a foot massage, if she enjoys straddling her partners lap while wearing only a towel and kissing him passionately, or gets non-arousing pleasure from knowing her boyfriend is in discomfort with an erection (which really is funny when no sex is expected or needed as result, ever), or if someone enjoys bathing naked with their lover - washing each other lovingly, or lying naked in bed kissing sensually for hours and exploring each other's bodies (just some of the things sensual aces may enjoy). 

 

These things switch the sexual person's brain to 'sex' so fast (like, it's hardwired in there) that total sexual incompatibility stops mattering the second an ace expresses enjoying these types of activities. And you know what happens in a mixed relationship when an ace wants these things? The sexual will expect sex even more vehemently because they're SURE their partner can't be asexual, you can't possibly not want sex if you want me to kiss your boobs, right???. So an asexual (even an unidentified one) instinctively knows to try to avoid those types of activities even though they will long to have that level of physical intimacy with their partner (as long as it doesn't lead to 'shared genital stimulation/need for a orgasm/etc).

 

Quote

It's certainly not platonic, is it?

 

....Neither is a romantic asexual relationship. No one is talking about platonic relationships here.

 

Quote

"If it was PIV they were missing,  Ficto would be quick to criticise someone who claimed 'but this isn't sexual'. I've seen her do it."

 

PiV (and anal, and oral, and mutual masturbation) are the 'end goals', they're the 'crux' of sex.. the integral aspect of it. The partnered sexual pleasure and orgasm of at least one person, that's when sensuality becomes *sex*. Sure intimacy can still be great with none of those things involved.. but no sexual would actually say they "just had sex" if it didn't lead to any of those things. And if it never, ever lead to any act of partnered genital stimulation, the sexual person would be furious (and I can see your anger already just talking about it, Tele), sexually frustrated, in a lot of sexual and emotional pain, and no doubt would end the relationship faster than if they were just not getting sex without the sensual stuff. 

 

Whereas for a sensual ace, this is what makes them feel deeply fullfilled and truly intimately satisfied. No sex, no need for partnered genital stimulation, no sexual pleasure, no need for partnered orgasm.. just intimate, sensual, loving touch of all parts of each other's bodies, passionate kissing, shared nakedness. But no oral sex. No mutual masturbation. No anal sex. No PiV.. Those things are just not 'hardwired' as part of pleasurable intimacy for a sensual ace, even if they're capable of experiencing arousal and masturbating in a utilitarian way on their own. It's not a libido issue, it's someone who just has no desire to connect on the level of actual sexual pleasure with their partner (or anyone else). Sexual meaning the sex organs, which are designed for reproduction and pleasure. That pleasure is just not desired in an asexual, no matter how sensual the rest of their desires are.

 

Quote

A key difference between an asexual and a sexual isn't whether they have sex, it's whether it's a meaningful part of their relationship. Ficto is saying that she wanted to have her nipples sucked as part of her relationship, and regretted she felt it wasn't possible. That makes it a meaningful part of her relationship. Therefore, it's something a sexual person would want, and an asexual wouldn't. She's saying, apparently, an asexual could want this. It makes no sense.

 

Having your nipples sucked is not sex though. It can be *part* of sex,for some people, as can kissing and hugging. That doesn't automatically make kissing and hugging something only sexual people can do though, right?

 

If you sucked your wife's nipples every night for a year while she cuddled and held you, but both of your underwear stayed on and neither masturbated or had sex as a result of that act, you'd still legally be able to end your marriage (before the end of that year) due to lack of consummation because you've still never had sex with her. I'm not even sure if that's still a thing but I saw IronHamster talking about it and yes, if it was a thing, you'd legally be allowed to end your marriage. You'd also say "I've never once had sex with my bloody wife, never even came close. Furtherest I got was kissing her tits but do you think she'd let me fuck her, or even give me a blowie?? Nada. Only ever wanted her tits sucked!" and all your mates at the bar would boo your wife for being such a frigid cocktease. 

 

And you know what? Interestingly enough, both my kids sucked my nipples for the first year of their lives but surprise surprise, I'm not a pedohile.

 

Nipple sucking certainly is not sex. Though yes, I agree 100% it can be and often is involved in sex (as is kissing and cuddling which I also do with my children). It's still not sexual if you're not doing it as a part of sex or hoping it will lead up to sex, ever. :)

 

Quote

Would to be bothered if you never had your nipples sucked?

 

Well, for a start, you already know I don't ID as asexual anymore so it's not like that question is personally relevant to me. I am talking on behalf of sensual asexuals here. However, I've been in a distance relationship since 2016 and there is 11,000 miles between us. I know conceptually that I can desire and enjoy it, and my partner and I talk about it often, but he's never done it to me. What satisfies me most is knowing he wants to, while at the same time knowing he couldn't care less it it never led to sex (which is what switched on my awareness of my innate sexuality in the first place). However, for a sensual asexual, it would never lead to a desire to go 'further' and even for me now, it still wouldn't often go further than that and we'd both be happy with that. But it's more that he *wants* it that's important, as opposed to whether or not it's actually happening!

 

Quote

If your partner refused to suck them, would you be upset? It's clear your answer would be yes.

 

I'm sure you didn't mean this to come across quite how it did, but I'd never become upset at my partner for not wanting to do something (whether that's a foot massage, kissing, hugging, watching a movie on Skype, boob stuff.. anything) because he has that right to his own bodily autonamy, as does anyone. Just because someone is in a relationship with you doesn't mean they have to give up bodily autonamy, they always have the right to to turn down intimacy if they're not in the mood. I'd rather make sure he's okay, make him a cup of tea, give him some space, whatever he needs! Sometimes you're just not in the mood and that's fine too. If you get upset at someone for not wanting something intimate you're only going to push them further away and make them want it less.

 

But maybe you meant if he *never* wanted it? Well, him and I spoke extensively about the things we desire intimately (when we both thought we were still ace) *before* agreeing on whether or not we'd be intimately compatible in a relationship, and we gave it a trial run even then just in case it wouldn't work out. If we weren't compatible we'd have just remained friends and not taken it further. If he suddenly *stopped* wanting any form of sensual intimacy though I probably would consider leaving if I still desired it, as I'm not someone who would ever cheat.

 

However, even if I was ace, that's still totally understandable. If two aces are in a romantic relationship and one completely stops wanting any passionate kissing (or any other intimate thing), the other is still allowed to leave due to intimate  dissatisfaction without losing their ace card, lol :P

 

...

 

In closing: 

 

This is often a trigger issue for many (not all!!) sexual people because for many, it can be *impossible* to disassociate some actions from sex, even if they'd be just as miserable with a sensual asexual as they are with their non-sensual ace partner now due to total sexual incompatibility and lack of... sex.

 

Yes, it's true some activities can be done as part of sex, but that doesn't make these activities *sex*. This is illustrated by the fact that the same sexual person being triggered by these ideas right now would never say ''I just had sex'' if literally all they did was kiss a woman's boobs, or if she teasingly ran her hand over the front of his jeans, or if she straddled him while wearing only a towel to cover her nakedness, all wet from the shower, and kissed him passionately like that. 

 

And again, many romantic asexuals are not looking for a 'platonic-seeming' relationship. There seems to be a misconception happening here that romantic asexual relationships resemble a platonic friendship, and if it's anything beyond that it must be sexual. Believe me, I've met aces here filthier than any fully sexual person I've come across, and many with a desire for sensual intimacy that goes waaaaay beyond anything I've ever heard sexual people expressing. Just because aces don't want to bang and have literally no interest in having their genitals stimulated by someone else and have no interest in stimulating someone else's genitals, that doesn't automatically make them these clean, pure, naive beings who blush if they get a kiss on the cheek from their long-term lover. Yes, some aces *are* like that, but many are not.

 

:):cake:

 

 

 

 

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vega57
47 minutes ago, Serran said:

Cheating and adultery are not the same thing :P 

 

cheat
CHēt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
  1. 1.
    act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
    "she always cheats at cards"
     
     
     
    The reason cheating is cheating is because it's dishonest and breaking an agreement with your partner. Cheating can happen in a marriage, or a dating relationship. Cheating can even happen within a poly relationship, if the agreement is broken. 
     
    Adultery is more a legal and/or religious thing. Cheating is more the ethical and/or moral thing. 

I was specifically addressing IronHampster's case.  He said that it was NOT "cheating" if both partners are "in on it".  In HIS specific case, he told his wife about it.  But SHE wasn't "in on it".  She had knowledge of it, but having knowledge about what he was doing isn't the same thing as agreeing to it.  His wife obviously didn't agree with his decision, and is currently seeking a divorce.  In HIS case, he is married...so, it's a bit more 'severe' than "cheating".  It's adultery, period. 

 

I DO agree that people are free to make their own rules, with the agreement of others.  But I also believe that the rules are different for married folks than they are for single folks.  To me, even if people who are poly agree ahead of time...before they marry...to be poly, it doesn't mean that they're NOT committing adultery.  They are, simply because of what the definition of adultery is. 

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vega57
16 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

 

 

 

There is a lot to respond to here and I'm on my phone but I'll see if I can do this without butchering it. I'd also like to say that when I say 'sexual people' in this post, I'm not referring to you all! Just those who have a lot of trouble with the concept of sensual asexuality.

 

I've had this convo here many times and it generally doesn't get THAT far, because the sexual person seems suddenly unable to comprehend that they themselves, as well as almost every other sexual on the planet, would be utterly sexually imcompatible with a sensual asexual. Neither partner would be able to get their needs met, both would end up miserable. But somehow this stops mattering if an ace female enjoys walking around the house naked and being touched sensually as a result, enjoys breast stimulation in the same way she does a foot massage, if she enjoys straddling her partners lap while wearing only a towel and kissing him passionately, or gets non-arousing pleasure from knowing her boyfriend is in discomfort with an erection (which really is funny when no sex is expected or needed as result, ever), or if someone enjoys bathing naked with their lover - washing each other lovingly, or lying naked in bed kissing sensually for hours and exploring each other's bodies (just some of the things sensual aces may enjoy). 

 

These things switch the sexual person's brain to 'sex' so fast (like, it's hardwired in there) that total sexual incompatibility stops mattering the second an ace expresses enjoying these types of activities. And you know what happens in a mixed relationship when an ace wants these things? The sexual will expect sex even more vehemently because they're SURE their partner can't be asexual, you can't possibly not want sex if you want me to kiss your boobs, right???. So an asexual (even an unidentified one) instinctively knows to try to avoid those types of activities even though they will long to have that level of physical intimacy with their partner (as long as it doesn't lead to 'shared genital stimulation/need for a orgasm/etc).

 

 

....Neither is a romantic asexual relationship. No one is talking about platonic relationships here.

 

 

PiV (and anal, and oral, and mutual masturbation) are the 'end goals', they're the 'crux' of sex.. the integral aspect of it. That partnered sexual pleasure and orgasm of at least one person. Sure intimacy can still he great with none of those things involved.. but no sexual would actually say they "just had sex" if it didn't lead to any of those things. And if it never, ever lead to any act of partnered genital stimulation, the sexual person would be furious (and I can see your anger already just talking about it, Tele), sexually frustrated, in a lot of sexual and emotional pain, and no doubt would end the relationship faster than if they were just not getting sex without the sensual stuff. 

 

Whereas for a sensual ace, this is what makes them feel deeply fullfilled and truly intimately satisfied. No sex, no need for partnered genital stimulation, no sexual pleasure, no need for partnered orgasm.. just intimate, sensual, loving touch of all parts of each other's bodies, passionate kissing, shared nakedness. But no oral sex. No mutual masturbation. No anal sex. No PiV.. Those things are just not 'hardwired' as part of pleasurable intimacy for a sensual ace, even if they're capable of experiencing arousal and masturbating in a utilitarian way on their own. It's not a libido issue, it's someone who just has no desire to connect on the level of actual sexual pleasure with their partner (or anyone else). Sexual meaning the sex organs, which are designed for reproduction and pleasure. That pleasure is just not desired in an asexual, no matter how sensual the rest of their desires are.

 

 

Having your nipples sucked is not sex though. It can be *part* of sex,for some people, as can kissing and hugging. That doesn't automatically make kissing and hugging something only sexual people can do though, right?

 

If you sucked your wife's nipples every night for a year while she cuddled and held you, but both of your underwear stayed on and neither masturbated or had sex as a result of that act, you'd still legally be able to end your marriage (before the end of that year) due to lack of consummation because you've still never had sex with her. I'm not even sure if that's still a thing but I saw IronHamster talking about it and yes, if it was a thing, you'd legally be allowed to end your marriage. You'd also say "I've never once had sex with my bloody wife, never even came close. Furtherest I got was kissing her tits but do you think she'd let me fuck her, or even give me a blowie?? Nada. Only ever wanted her tits sucked!" and all your mates at the bar would boo your wife for being such a frigid cocktease. 

 

And you know what? Interestingly enough, both my kids sucked my nipples for the first year of their lives but surprise surprise, I'm not a pedohile.

 

Nipple sucking certainly is not sex. Though yes, I agree 100% it can be and often is involved in sex (as is kissing and cuddling which I also do with my children). It's still not sexual if you're not doing it as a part of sex or hoping it will lead up to sex, ever. :)

 

 

Well, for a start, you already know I don't ID as asexual anymore so it's not like that question is personally relevant to me. I am talking on behalf of sensual asexuals here. However, I've been in a distance relationship since 2016 and there is 11,000 miles between us. I know conceptually that I can desire and enjoy it, and my partner and I talk about it often, but he's never done it to me. What satisfies me most is knowing he wants to, while at the same time knowing he couldn't care less it it never led to sex (which is what switched on my awareness of my innate sexuality in the first place). However, for a sensual asexual, it would never lead to a desire to go 'further' and even for me now, it still wouldn't often go further than that and we'd both be happy with that. But it's more that he *wants* it that's important, as opposed to whether or not it's actually happening!

 

 

I'm sure you didn't mean this to come across quite how it did, but I'd never become upset at my partner for not wanting to do something (whether that's a foot massage, kissing, hugging, watching a movie on Skype, boob stuff.. anything) because he has that right to his own bodily autonamy, as does anyone. Just because someone is in a relationship with you doesn't mean they have to give up bodily autonamy, they always have the right to to turn down intimacy if they're not in the mood. I'd rather make sure he's okay, make him a cup of tea, give him some space, whatever he needs! Sometimes you're just not in the mood and that's fine too. If you get upset at someone for not wanting something intimate you're only going to push them further away and make them want it less.

 

But maybe you meant if he *never* wanted it? Well, him and I spoke extensively about the things we desire intimately (when we both thought we were still ace) *before* agreeing on whether or not we'd be intimately compatible in a relationship, and we gave it a trial run even then just in case it wouldn't work out. If we weren't compatible we'd have just remained friends and not taken it further. If he suddenly *stopped* wanting any form of sensual intimacy though I probably would consider leaving if I still desired it, as I'm not someone who would ever cheat.

 

However, even if I was ace, that's still totally understandable. If two aces are in a romantic relationship and one completely stops wanting any passionate kissing (or any other intimate thing), the other is still allowed to leave due to intimate  dissatisfaction without losing their ace card, lol :P

 

...

 

In closing: this is often a trigger issue for many (not all!!) sexual people because for many, it can be *impossible* to disassociate some actions from sex, even if they'd be just as miserable with a sensual asexual as they are with their non-sensual ace partner now due to total sexual incompatibility and lack of ...sex.

 

Yes, it's true some activities can be done as part of sex, but that doesn't make these activities *sex*. This is illustrated by the fact that the same sexual person being triggered right now would never say ''I just had sex'' if literally all they did was kiss a woman's boobs, or if she teasingly ran her hand over the front of jeans, or if she straddled him while wearing only a towel to cover her nakedness, all wet from the shower, and kissed him passionately like that. 

 

And again, many romantic asexuals are not looking for a 'platonic-seeming' relationship. There seems to be a misconception happening here that romantic asexual relationships resemble a platonic friendship, and if it's anything beyond that it must be sexual. Believe me, I've met aces here filthier than any fully sexual person I've come across, and many with a desire for sensual intimacy that goes waaaaay beyond anything I've ever heard sexual people expressing. Just because aces don't want to bang and have literally no interest in having their genitals stimulated by someone else and have no interest in stimulating someone else's genitals, that doesn't automatically make them these clean, pure, naive beings who blush if they get a kiss on the cheek from their long-term lover. Yes, some aces *are* like that, but many are not.

 

:)

 

 

 

 

I know there's a "like" button here, but where the heck is the LOVE button?!?!?!?  Ficto, you've outdone yourself.  This post is absolutely brilliant, that I vote for it to be a 'sticky'! 

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Law of Circles
7 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I was specifically addressing IronHampster's case.  He said that it was NOT "cheating" if both partners are "in on it".  In HIS specific case, he told his wife about it.  But SHE wasn't "in on it".  She had knowledge of it, but having knowledge about what he was doing isn't the same thing as agreeing to it.  His wife obviously didn't agree with his decision, and is currently seeking a divorce.  In HIS case, he is married...so, it's a bit more 'severe' than "cheating".  It's adultery, period.

It didn't seem like he was talking about his relationship, though - he was just asking if any mixed couples on AVEN practiced cuckolding/cuckqueaning. It sounded like you were saying that anyone in that type of relationship is cheating, and that's what made it confusing. Those types of arrangements are usually consensual, often even enthusiastically so.

 

11 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I DO agree that people are free to make their own rules, with the agreement of others.  But I also believe that the rules are different for married folks than they are for single folks.  To me, even if people who are poly agree ahead of time...before they marry...to be poly, it doesn't mean that they're NOT committing adultery.  They are, simply because of what the definition of adultery is. 

As a poly person myself, I frankly don't care whether other people think I'm committing a sin based on some religious or moral belief. I know I'm not cheating, any partner of mine knows I'm not cheating, and as far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters. You can say it's technically adultery if you want, and I won't try to argue with you simply because it doesn't matter to me what uninvolved third parties think of what I'm doing - I'm going to do it anyway. :P

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Telecaster68

I'm fairly certain we're never going to agree whether nipple sucking and cock stroking are inherently sexual or not.

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vega57
25 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm fairly certain we're never going to agree whether nipple sucking and cock stroking are inherently sexual or not.

Anything can be sexualized. 

 

Anything. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm fairly certain we're never going to agree whether nipple sucking and cock stroking are inherently sexual or not.

1) Babies suck nipples, are they perverts now if it's an inherently sexual behavior? :P

 

2) While it might be sexual-seeming behavior, so is nipple sucking, but a baby can do it without it being sexual. Or a hetero male doctor can fondle a beautiful young woman's breasts, or even put his fingers over and in her genitals (and up her butt!) without that being sexual in any way. Or a young woman doctor can fondle an attractive man's penis and put her finger up his arse without it being sexual behavior (even though for some sexual people that's the height of sexual pleasure!) ..even a gay male doctor can out his fingers up a young man's arse without it being sexual. 

 

So while some behaviors can definitely be sexual in a context that's definitely sexual (if those behaviours are *leading to sex* or at least intentionally trying to create arousal for the purpose of sexual pleasure) there are certainly circumstances where those same behaviours are not sexual at all. 

 

And regarding the penis thing,you seem to be imagining someone enthusiastically playing with and slobbering over an erect penis! I just mean finding inherent 'interest' in the way they really can change so quickly, it's truly a fascinating phenomenon! In the same way a kid might sit for ages looking at pics in an anatomy book without actually wanting to have sex with the people involved, it can just be really fascinating seeing aspects of human anatomy and especially something that can change so drastically in such a short amount of time. Obviously not all aces (or all sexuals for that matter, I know a lot of hetero women find cocks inherently ugly) have that same kind of interest, but I have met sensual asexuals here who think about it like that, without it being sexual or having anything to do with their own, or their partners, sexual pleasure in any way (however if they actively wanted to suck the penis because they love having their partner orgasm in their mouths, now we're talking sex!!)

 

 

The ace community came up with the term 'sensual ace' years ago to define an asexual who, while they have no desire for a sexual connection (involving the sexual pleasure of the genitals) with another person, they do desire *sensual* activities. They're still not in any way compatible with a sexual person, but emphasising the 'sensual' part gives a higher likelihood of them finding an ace more like themselves who can partake in sensual intimacy with them without it ever leading to sex. 

 

We have had sexual people here in the past whose partners are 'sensual' ace, and they described it like a torture worse than if the partner just didn't want sex and also didn't want anything else either. It's like you're *constantly* starving and having the most delicious feast laid out before, but you're only allowed to touch and smell the food.. you can't actually eat it. So sexual incompatibility is as much of an issue as it is in literally any mixed ace/sexual relationship, and with a sensual ace can be even harder to deal with for both partners.

 

I would totally concede if you wanted to call these people 'grey' instead of ace, that would make sense. I always said I was in the grey area personally (too sexual to be fully ace, too ace to be fully sexual) but I know lots of sensual aces who just ID as 'sensual asexual' (without the grey part), and as they still have no desire to actually *have* sex (any form of partnered genital stimulation for sexual pleasure) they're still technically ace.

 

40 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Anything can be sexualized. 

 

Anything. 

Vega is right on the money with this one. Shit can literally be extremely sexually arousing for someone with a scat fetish, so them and their partner taking a crap becomes sexual for them. Feet are another one. For many couples a foot massage is just a foot massage (and that's exactly how a boob massage feels to me even though I don't ID as ace anymore) but for someone with a foot fetish, a foot massage becomes an integral part of the sexual activity they enjoy in their relationship.

 

But yes, all that aside, I do agree with you @Telecaster68 that we probably won't be able to agree on this. Like I said, I've had this conversation many times before and for some sexual people, certain behaviours are so 'sexual seeming' that they can't concede someone could want them and still be ace. I do understand where they are coming from, but at the same time, the same sexual person would never say "I just had sex" if those sensual activities were all they ever got to do with their partner. They'd say they have a physically intimate but sexless relationship. Which kind of proves the point that they're not 'sexual enough' to count if no actual sex ever happens. Does that make sense? Those behaviours are not sexual enough to actually count (for a sexual person) if no sex is happening, ever. But..somehow even if no sex happening, those behaviours  (to a sexual person) are too sexual to be ace.. it's a strange dichotomy!

 

We also have had sexuals pass through here who claim that even kissing is so inherently sexual that someone can't want it and still be ace. This gives me the impression that it's more about how much sexual importance the sexual person themselves places on the act that dictates where or not they not they can think an ace can want it, if that makes sense? On FetLife, I've seen people say stuff like 'no man can't not want to fuck a woman with perfect tiny little titties', yet in a different group on the same site men are saying they're only into big saggy boobs and would feel like something important is missing without the big breasts.. So I see this a lot where if something is highly sexual to one person, they automatically assume the same thing applies to every single other person alive when that's not entirely the case!

 

Definitely an interesting discussion, but not one that usually gets very far I'm afraid! :):cake:

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vega57

You did it again, Ficto!  Another perfect post!  :)

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GLRDT
On 2/13/2018 at 4:43 PM, FictoVore. said:

I wasn't referring to casual hugging like to celebrate a new job or whatever, I was talking about intimate hugging that asexuals desire where you just lie together and hold each other, sometimes even naked, and often kissing too. Asexuals can desire that very deeply and know they can't get it unless they're also willing to either give their partner sex afterwards, or feel the guilt of knowing they got their partner all worked up then turned them down. That stops being an issue in an ace/ace relationship which makes the intimacy a lot more enjoyable when you know you can have that without it ever leading to sex. 

Oh my gosh I never realized how wonderful that would be until you just said it. I want that! Damn it. That's going to be hard to find. Also yes I've felt that guilt or just had sex for fear of leading them on many a time.

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flesh-pocket

i will jump back in here to say that fictos examples of nipple sucking and cock stroking are just that-- examples from her own relationship, and she fully admits to not being asexual anyway. i agree that the cock stroking one is a bit extreme for this, but again shes not asexual. i think whats shes getting at is that for sensual aces, its the freedom to have that kind of intimate touch without sexual undertones that's important, more so than any particular act. 

 

like serrans example of kissing her partner with only a towel on, its not the fact that shes in a towel that she likes, its that she can get out of the shower, see her partner, and run up and kiss them the same way she could if she'd just came home from work and know it won't have to escalate. like she said in another post, its not the towel that's important. its not the straddling that's important. its the fact that these things can be done as simple expressions of love between intimate partners without it being sexual, ever. 

 

its like if your partner had a foot fetish and you weren't into it, you wouldn't ask them to give you a foot massage if you just wanted a massage, because they could see it as initiation of a kind of sexual contact you didn't want. if neither of you have that fetish, then you can ask for that without worry, but your relationship still does not revolve around foot massages, nor would you get mad if your partner did not want to give the massages because its not the not-getting of the massages you didn't like in the first scenario, its the fact that you had to hold back on expressing a kind of intimacy you enjoyed because you knew it would be cruel to your partner.

 

this is the same feeling sexuals who are in relationships with asexuals and are trying to be celibate for their partner get but in reverse. the sexual wants to express love to their partner sexually, but knows that would make their partner uncomfortable so they don't. they may even suppress doing things that they don't see as sexual because they know their partner might, (ex: sleeping naked. the sexual partner might just find this the most comfortable way to sleep, but if it made the ace partner uncomfortable they might not do it. this is the type of policing that sensual aces do too.)  they also often feel they are suppressing a part of themselves, their sexuality, when they do this. a sensual ace wants to express love as it feels natural to them without sex coming into the picture, but because they know that at least some of the things they want to do will be interpreted sexually, they don't, and in turn they feel they are suppressing a part of themselves because they have to be constantly policing the way they express affection/ thinking about how their partner will react to an action, just as the sexual consciously trying not to make an ace partner uncomfortable might. 

 

and if someone did want to break up over foot massages or nipple sucking or whatever, its completely in their right to do so. people can break up if they are unhappy for whatever reason. 

 

i will say that having a partner that did not see my breasts as being in any way sexual in nature sounds like HEAVEN to me. being able to treat genitals as just another body part with sexuality never even coming up sounds fucking fabulous. i have never had a relationship but i understand these concepts intuitively, and hope i will have a relationship like this someday (though i hope i don't realize i was secretly sexual the whole time in the process!)  

 

i hope i have made it more clear...

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

(first post I've been able to make on my comp today, it's sooooo much easier actually being able to properly see the screen you're typing on, haha!)

 

1 hour ago, flesh-pocket said:

i will say that having a partner that did not see my breasts as being in any way sexual in nature sounds like HEAVEN to me. being able to treat genitals as just another body part with sexuality never even coming up sounds fucking fabulous. i have never had a relationship but i understand these concepts intuitively, and hope i will have a relationship like this someday (though i hope i don't realize i was secretly sexual the whole time in the process!)  

 

Yeah you explained this really well. Never any pressure to 'put out', no pressure to orgasm or have to make someone else orgasm, just the freedom to enjoy each other's bodies intimately and romantically with no need for that to end in any form of sex (PiV, anal, oral, masturbating each other, anything to achieve partnered sexual stimulation and at least one person orgasming).

 

I realized I wasn't asexual when, after receiving intimacy with no expectation of sex (online, no less) I found the other person's orgasm started becoming fun and enjoyable to me. My own orgasm really isn't that important at all (and I can't orgasm from oral or PiV anyway) but I do genuinely enjoy knowing the other person needs to orgasm, and enjoy knowing I'm desired enough by that person for them to need to orgasm as a result of the interaction we have (even if it's only online!). If someone is full-on asexual, it won't get to that point, however if you're with a partner who gives you the sexless intimacy you desire and realize like me that you are less asexual than you previously thought, it's usually not so bad because you're already with someone who is obviously already giving you what you need in the way you need it.

 

Having been 'functionally asexual' for so long, it's also very easy to go without sexual intimacy if you're apart or whatever (well, that's what it's like for me. Not sure how @Serran feels about that? For me it's like the sex doesn't matter so much, but it's great knowing it's there as an option. and it's great knowing that despite the newfound sexuality, you can still be who you want to be - like being naked on Skype vid call or whatever - without the other person ever expecting that to lead to some form of sex and not getting upset if it doesn't: One of the great things about having a partner who also previously ID'd as asexual!).

 

So yeah, realizing you weren't as asexual as you thought you were isn't so bad if you're already with someone who loves you, respects you, cares about what it is you desire, and is already giving you everything you need in the first place (because if they weren't giving you that, you probably wouldn't have had the chance to realize you're not as asexual as you thought you were!). I also think it's only possible if BOTH partners are less asexual than they thought they were. Like I have said before, I was with my asexual partner for like 18 months and neither of us ever even discussed having sex (and that means literally ANYTHING involving our pants coming off). We did a lot of other stuff, but sex/underwear removal was never even a consideration. We split up for reasons other than the intimacy, but without him also being open to more I was never open to more myself!!

 

I'm probably not making much sense, I'm starting to get brain freeze from too much AVEN time today, haha! But yeah, great post @flesh-pocket (also, is that Little Foot from Land Before Time?.. omg that movie is soooooooooo sad!)

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flesh-pocket

@FictoVore. it is little foot indeed. "there's just nothing better than little foot.... that's what i always say"   -a quote from me.

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Serran
49 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

 

 

Having been 'functionally asexual' for so long, it's also very easy to go without sexual intimacy if you're apart or whatever (well, that's what it's like for me. Not sure how @Serran feels about that? For me it's like the sex doesn't matter so much, but it's great knowing it's there as an option. and it's great knowing that despite the newfound sexuality, you can still be who you want to be - like being naked on Skype vid call or whatever - without the other person ever expecting that to lead to some form of sex and not getting upset if it doesn't: One of the great things about having a partner who also previously ID'd as asexual!).

I don't care about not having sexual stuff when apart. I do miss being able to hug my partner, come home to them or fall asleep next to them though. :(

 

50 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

 

 

So yeah, realizing you weren't as asexual as you thought you were isn't so bad if you're already with someone who loves you, respects you, cares about what it is you desire, and is already giving you everything you need in the first place (because if they weren't giving you that, you probably wouldn't have had the chance to realize you're not as asexual as you thought you were!). I also think it's only possible if BOTH partners are less asexual than they thought they were. Like I have said before, I was with my asexual partner for like 18 months and neither of us ever even discussed having sex (and that means literally ANYTHING involving our pants coming off). We did a lot of other stuff, but sex/underwear removal was never even a consideration. We split up for reasons other than the intimacy, but without him also being open to more I was never open to more myself!!

And yeah... I don't think I'd have ever been interested in anything if it wasn't mutual. I still have no interest in anything that isn't mutual. And if sexual attraction disappears, I really don't much care. It's just something kind of cool and unusual, but I don't consider it actually important at all. 

 

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