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Is sex really that important for a relationship?

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Telecaster68
10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Some sexuals have repeated over and over again, that if their partner doesn't have sex with them, that they feel "unloved".  Some of those same sexuals have expressed a desire to go outside of the primary non-sexual relationship in order to get sex.  If they do this, are they going to feel "loved"? 

They're not going outside their relationship expecting to feel loved in the same way as they would if their partner wanted to have sex with them. What they're missing is being desired, the physical pleasure and a kind of emotional intimacy that's different to hugs and cuddles, and that's what they're wanting from outside relationships.

 

9 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Maybe because the asexual knows that the sexual wants to make a move...?

Do they? In an ideal world, if they knew their partner wanted sex too, then yes, they would. But it's common for sexuals to say they actively don't want sex because their partner doesn't want sex. So in that specific situation, they don't want to make a move, out of consideration for their partner.

 

I know your experience is different to this, but I also know you've read the 'I don't want to have sex with them because they don't want sex with me' posts too. There are also plenty of posts from sexuals saying they make a point of not trying to escalate hugs etc.

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vega57
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

They're not going outside their relationship expecting to feel loved in the same way as they would if their partner wanted to have sex with them. What they're missing is being desired, the physical pleasure and a kind of emotional intimacy that's different to hugs and cuddles, and that's what they're wanting from outside relationships.

When you say "being desired", do you mean being sexually desired?  The reason I ask is because I understand that asexuals tend to desire their partner in every way BUT sexually.  For some sexuals this translates into something like, "My sexual only wants me for my wallet" or "My asexual partner only wants me because (insert any reason)".  Meanwhile, it's usually so far from the truth.   

 

Tele, believe it or not, I DO understand that sex yields to physical pleasure for most sexuals.  But as an asexual, I get more physical pleasure from, let's say, working out at the gym.  As a woman, working out at the gym is so non-invasive!  And even though I HAVE had orgasms through sex before--even STRONG ones--, I'd take working out over orgasms any day of the week. 

 

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Do they? In an ideal world, if they knew their partner wanted sex too, then yes, they would. But it's common for sexuals to say they actively don't want sex because their partner doesn't want sex. So in that specific situation, they don't want to make a move, out of consideration for their partner.

Yes, I understand that there are some sexuals out there who would choose to live a celibate life out of consideration for their partner, but I believe that those kinds of partners are far and few between. 

 

Quote

I know your experience is different to this, but I also know you've read the 'I don't want to have sex with them because they don't want sex with me' posts too. There are also plenty of posts from sexuals saying they make a point of not trying to escalate hugs etc.

You're right.  I have read those posts.  But I must say that there aren't that many of them, so it doesn't seem to be the 'norm'.  It's usually the 'my-partner-won't-have-sex-with-me-how-can-I-get-them-to-do-so' followed by a whole bunch of "strategies" such as doing the "180", or refusing to engage with their partner in every other way, to dragging their partner to a sex therapist, to dragging their partner to getting their hormones checked, to suspecting their partner of having an affair, or being told to 'open the relationship, to cheating...you know the drill! 

 

All in all, I look at what the sexual says about how they feel about NOT getting sex, and I wonder if there are other ways to get those 'needs' met BESIDES through sex...

 

...and, if they've even explored them...?

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alibali

Being asexual is really confusing. On the one hand everyone is apparently doing it and interested and it is really really important, and yet from what people are saying here is for most of the time they aren't interested and people can live normal lives without being turned on all the time. 

 

I'm not critical. Just confused.

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MrDane

The need for connection and love can be met through other things than sex. The need for sex can mostly only be met through sex.   In a good and healthy relationship between two sexuals, then sex is a joyful icing of the relationship cake. How, how much is usually up for discussion and compromises are being made all the time. Educated sexuals know how menopause, testosterone levels, sickness, age and life situations can have an impact on sexuality and things can evolve/dissolve.

What can be hard to grasp is how “stay away from me” can mean “I want to be with you” when it is spoken by an asexual. I sometimes think, that my asexual wife should be more precise about what she means.

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uhtred
2 hours ago, vega57 said:

When you say "being desired", do you mean being sexually desired?  The reason I ask is because I understand that asexuals tend to desire their partner in every way BUT sexually.  For some sexuals this translates into something like, "My sexual only wants me for my wallet" or "My asexual partner only wants me because (insert any reason)".  Meanwhile, it's usually so far from the truth.   

 

Tele, believe it or not, I DO understand that sex yields to physical pleasure for most sexuals.  But as an asexual, I get more physical pleasure from, let's say, working out at the gym.  As a woman, working out at the gym is so non-invasive!  And even though I HAVE had orgasms through sex before--even STRONG ones--, I'd take working out over orgasms any day of the week. 

 

Yes, I understand that there are some sexuals out there who would choose to live a celibate life out of consideration for their partner, but I believe that those kinds of partners are far and few between. 

 

You're right.  I have read those posts.  But I must say that there aren't that many of them, so it doesn't seem to be the 'norm'.  It's usually the 'my-partner-won't-have-sex-with-me-how-can-I-get-them-to-do-so' followed by a whole bunch of "strategies" such as doing the "180", or refusing to engage with their partner in every other way, to dragging their partner to a sex therapist, to dragging their partner to getting their hormones checked, to suspecting their partner of having an affair, or being told to 'open the relationship, to cheating...you know the drill! 

 

All in all, I look at what the sexual says about how they feel about NOT getting sex, and I wonder if there are other ways to get those 'needs' met BESIDES through sex...

 

...and, if they've even explored them...?

For a sexual person, I don't know of anything that is a substitute for sex with a partner.   Its like looking for a substitute for music.  If you could NEVER hear music again - not because you lost your hearing but because by social convention if your partner doesn't like music, you are never allowed to hear it.  What could substitute?   (don't just think about sitting and listening, but about never hearing it in movies, background anything - if somehow all music was blanked out). 

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Honestly, we don't always get aroused from hugs. It may seem like we're on a hair trigger, particularly if we haven't had sex for long time, but honestly, it's pretty normal to hug without getting a hard-on.

 

If you hug your partner because they're upset, or it's celebrating say getting a new job, you (ie sexuals) don't get a hard on if it's really not the moment and they're not interested. My experience is that - eventually at least - you know it's never going anywhere, then there's no arousal.

I know for YOU it's like that Tele, but believe me there are sexual partners out there who actually really aren't that into hugging unless it's going to lead to sex, or who feel upset if you're hugging and it doesn't start going in that direction. No it's not like that for YOU, and most of the sexual partners who end up on AVEN are a bit different because they've already actively chosen celibacy for the sake of their partner. However those out there who are like 'We have sex or I'm leaving' really aren't the sort who are that into just snuggling in bed without that leading to sex. I wasn't referring to casual hugging like to celebrate a new job or whatever, I was talking about intimate hugging that asexuals desire where you just lie together and hold each other, sometimes even naked, and often kissing too. Asexuals can desire that very deeply and know they can't get it unless they're also willing to either give their partner sex afterwards, or feel the guilt of knowing they got their partner all worked up then turned them down. That stops being an issue in an ace/ace relationship which makes the intimacy a lot more enjoyable when you know you can have that without it ever leading to sex. But I certainly wasn't referring to all sexuals, or all asexuals.

 

Again, the discussion originally began because someone was asking how their asexual partner could possibly care if they (the sexual) is having sex with other people. 

 

I was trying to explain that some romantic aces do actually have needs that sexuals can't really meet, and can still have a desire for monogamy and things, and it's not always just the sexual who suffers. I'm not trying to say asexuals have it worse or anything, just that even if the asexual is allowed to be celibate that certainly doesn't automatically imply they're getting all their intimate needs met (in the same way the ace might be giving the sexual partner sex every day, but that's not truly filling the sexual person's 'needs' to be desired sexually etc. It would feel quite empty knowing your ace partner is just lying there taking it while you do them. The physical release of sex might be achieved of course, but there's a lot more to sex - like mutual desire -that an asexual really can't give their sexual partner).

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Telecaster68

I agree with most of that, but I can't let this 'all sexuals are animals constantly after sex and nothing else' implication from some quarters go unchallenged. We're not.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree with most of that, but I can't let this 'all sexuals are animals constantly after sex and nothing else' implication from some quarters go unchallenged. We're not.

Yeah I should have been more clear that I only meant some specific types of sexual partner. There are definitely the kind out there (like my ex and Serran's ex) who pretty much say 'you give me sex or I'm leaving' and you love them so you give them that. Those types are generally less non-sexually intimate.. so pretty much any kind of loving touch or a hug will lead to them wanting sex, and on the flipside they get frustrated and angry at you if you feel unable to give them sex even just sometimes. So you're meeting all their needs and having none of your own met.

 

I wasn't really even referring to them initially though, I was just trying to say that an asexual can deeply desire romantic physical intimacy with no underlying need for sexual contact , ever, and it's obviously not possible for any sexual to give an ace that because even if the sexual person promises to be totally celibate, the ace will still know that sexual partner has an underlying need for sexual intimacy. That's not the sexual partner's fault or the aces fault or anything, it's just something that can drive a rift through intimacy (both sexual and non-sexual).

 

That's just one of the many reasons why asexuals and sexuals are almost never intimately compatible, even if the sexual vows to live in celibacy or the ace vows to give sex every day. In the same way that a sexual still couldn't feel fully emotionally satisfied from sex with an ace, because the ace will only ever be 'giving' it and not actively desiring it for their own pleasure.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, FictoVore. said:

Yeah I should have been more clear that I only meant some specific types of sexual partner. There are definitely the kind out there (like my ex and Serran's ex) who pretty much say 'you give me sex or I'm leaving' and you love them so you give them that. Those types are generally less non-sexually intimate.. so pretty much any kind of loving touch or a hug will lead to them wanting sex, and on the flipside they get frustrated and angry at you if you feel unable to give them sex even just sometimes. So you're meeting all their needs and having none of your own met.

 

I wasn't really even referring to them initially though, I was just trying to say that an asexual can deeply desire romantic physical intimacy with no underlying need for sexual contact , ever, and it's obviously not possible for any sexual to give an ace that because even if the sexual person promises to be totally celibate, the ace will still know that sexual partner has an underlying need for sexual intimacy. That's not the sexual partner's fault or the aces fault or anything, it's just something that can drive a rift through intimacy (both sexual and non-sexual).

 

That's just one of the many reasons why asexuals and sexuals are almost never intimately compatible, even if the sexual vows to live in celibacy or the ace vows to give sex every day. In the same way that a sexual still couldn't feel fully emotionally satisfied from sex with an ace, because the ace will only ever be 'giving' it and not actively desiring it for their own pleasure.

See my post in the 'sexual needs' thread... 

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Serran
6 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

 

... sounds to me like asexuals are assuming (possibly unconsciously) that hugs are inherently sexually intended. How long would a sexual person have to make absolutely no sexual move of any type before they'd accept that sexuals can actually do non-sexual physical contact as well as sexual physical contact?

 

 

Honestly... I don't think any amount of time would help. I know exactly what Pan is talking about. Every time my ex used to hug me, or kiss me, I felt like I had to keep my guard up and couldn't let myself get "into it" cause it might give off the wrong signal, or they might get turned on, etc. It made physical intimacy not feel very intimate. Laying in bed watching a movie? Never was fully comfortable. Giving a morning kiss when I woke up and came into the computer room where he was? Always some level of being guarded was involved. Because any time we connected on a deep emotional level it caused him to want to express that through sex... which I didn't want. Just knowing that's how he expressed affection and thus was a natural desire for him caused a deep rift. Even more so when his hands would wander sometimes. It's hard to get into those deep "I love you so much" moments when you know your partner feels "I love you so much, I want you so much" at that point (which, my ex always felt like sex after the end of a 3 hour deep conversation, or anything else that made us feel very close). When you don't want sex, you can become hyper aware of all the things that have caused your partner to want it in the past. 

 

I didn't realize just how much I was doing this until I dated someone that didn't want sex from me. It was like lifting a heavy weight off human interaction. I could just be myself, be natural, be comfortable and I would never have to worry! The emotional fulfillment of being able to sit on top of my partner and have a tickle fight, with our clothes getting all in disarray and maybe sometimes them being able to see down my top cause we're wrestling around so much, without that turning sexual at all .... better than anything I've ever had. :wub: 

 

Of course, having that made me actually desire them sexually - which is funny. But, the fact it's still not something that is needed from me is very important. I couldn't be as comfortable with someone that was "average sexual" and would be hurt by my rather low key sexuality. 

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vega57
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree with most of that, but I can't let this 'all sexuals are animals constantly after sex and nothing else' implication from some quarters go unchallenged. We're not.

Oh Tele, lol.  Even some sexuals refer to themselves as "animals" who are constantly driven toward sex.  The men who act like this give the other guys a bad name! 

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Telecaster68
7 hours ago, vega57 said:

Oh Tele, lol.  Even some sexuals refer to themselves as "animals" who are constantly driven toward sex.  The men who act like this give the other guys a bad name! 

Well we agree about that. It's 'some', not 'all'.

 

13 hours ago, alibali said:

On the one hand everyone is apparently doing it and interested and it is really really important, and yet from what people are saying here is for most of the time they aren't interested and people can live normal lives without being turned on all the time.

Food is much the same, on that parallel: everyone eats and it's really important, but we're not hungry all the time and we don't spend all our time thinking about the next meal.

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alibali

That's fine then I echo what Serran said. Living in fear of intimacy because you don't realise that someone sexual doesn't want sex all the time...not good.  And if you never or rarely want it you don't realise that they don't want to all the time. Because it certainly feels that way.

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Telecaster68
15 minutes ago, alibali said:

That's fine then I echo what Serran said. Living in fear of intimacy because you don't realise that someone sexual doesn't want sex all the time...not good.  And if you never or rarely want it you don't realise that they don't want to all the time. Because it certainly feels that way.

Maybe it feels that way because 'all the time' is subjective...

 

 

And for sexuals, if you're not having sex as frequently as you'd like, you're horny, so sometimes you're going to push it. Plus, if sex is a problem in the relationship, it looms large for sexuals, and we want to make sure we don't miss a potential opportunity. I can see how all that can make it seem like we're perpetually horny.

 

Just as Serran wanted sex because her partner wasn't bothered, sexuals having a partner who doesn't want sex affects how we, as sexuals, act and feel too. If we were having sex, the whole thing would be less of a big deal to us too. Hungry men (and women) think about food. 

 

And, @vega57 - people can be inconsistent and contradictory: sometimes they'll back off and give up on a hopeless cause, and other times they'll be more inclined to optimism and think 'maybe this time', with a subtext of 'surely they must be horny by now'. We're people, not algorithms.

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alibali

Oh I agree Tele, just saying from my pov.

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alibali

 I am seeing photos of my friends on fb today with declarations of love  (which I do get) but find it confusing. I find it difficult to imagine that they all enjoy sex, but I suppose I must assume it.  This is the problem in terms of compatibility. You can understand something intellectually even at the same time as it making no sense whatsoever.

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vega57
5 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Maybe it feels that way because 'all the time' is subjective...

LOL.  My late husband once told me that he wanted sex "all the time".  He was always 'up' for it, lol!  One day we were having a(other) heated argument when he literally unzipped his pants and pulled out his ERECT PENIS, to "prove" to me that he was "always" 'in the mood'.  Yeah, he had some...um...er..."issues"....

 

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And, @vega57 - people can be inconsistent and contradictory: sometimes they'll back off and give up on a hopeless cause, and other times they'll be more inclined to optimism and think 'maybe this time', with a subtext of 'surely they must be horny by now'. We're people, not algorithms.

If people aren't algorithms, then WHY would some think, "surely they must be horny by now" as if the 'rule' is, that *everyone* gets horny, and that since *everyone*gets horny, they're going to want to 'solve' that horniness through sex...with *me*. 

 

Some people DO talk in 'computer speak', saying things like, "Humans are PROGRAMMED to want to have sex" or that "everyone is WIRED for sex". 

 

Can't get much more algorithmic than that kind of thinking. 

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Telecaster68

I mean we don't react the same way to the same input all the time. 

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vega57
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I mean we don't react the same way to the same input all the time. 

You're right!  We don't!  So why is it assumed that if a person has sex TODAY that they're going to want sex TOMORROW?

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Telecaster68

For same reason we assume that they'll want something to eat today even though they ate yesterday. 

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vega57
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

For same reason we assume that they'll want something to eat today even though they ate yesterday. 

But do you assume that because they want filet mignon TODAY that they'll want it TOMORROW? 

 

I'm sorry, Tele.  I just don't get on-board with the whole sex-is-like-food thinking.  People will DIE without food.  They won't die without sex.  You KNOW that. 

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Telecaster68

It's still a recurring need for most people to be happy in a relationship.

 

Sex isn't filet mignon. It's food, period.

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vega57
13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sex isn't filet mignon. It's food, period.

And that's just so wrong.  Food is necessary for survival.  Sex isn't.  To me, that comparison is just another way that some sexuals exaggerate in order to get what they want. 

 

I liked MrDanes' analogy better.  He wrote that sex was more like a drug

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Telecaster68

And asexuals should just lay back and get on with it.

 

See how dismissing what people are saying works? 

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MrDane
On 13/2/2018 at 7:57 PM, vega57 said:

No, I'm not conflating two different things.  I'm relying on what many sexuals have said about love and sex and I'm trying to make heads-or-tails of it. 

 

Some sexuals have repeated over and over again, that if their partner doesn't have sex with them, that they feel "unloved".  Some of those same sexuals have expressed a desire to go outside of the primary non-sexual relationship in order to get sex.  If they do this, are they going to feel "loved"? 

 

If that's the truth--that it "doesn't meet the same needs...", then what "needs" DOES it meet and why is it better than nothing?

 

@vega57 as I recall, your partner wanted sex at least three times a day. This sounds like waaay to much for most sexuals. I dont feel unloved as soon as we dont have sex.

 

I feel that an important aspect of our love life is missing if we go for to long without sex. Never is also to long. I hug without thinking of it as foreplay to sex. I think the thinking of it as foreplay, is mostly done by my ace wife. I have pretty much understood and accepted that no matter what, then she is not being turned on by my touch, not even a hug done with love. I look at our schedule and say ‘today, is x-day. Could you be okay with participating in a sexual activity with me? If you want, we can either skip today and wait and see about next scheduled session or we can take a ‘raincheck’ and see if it is better one of the following days. I would appreciate if you could help me to understand how you feel and what to expect.”

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MrDane
18 minutes ago, vega57 said:

And that's just so wrong.  Food is necessary for survival.  Sex isn't.  To me, that comparison is just another way that some sexuals exaggerate in order to get what they want. 

 

I liked MrDanes' analogy better.  He wrote that sex was more like a drug

...but on a normal day, I feel like I have tons of warm loving feelings inside me and I want to share it with the love of my life, but she comes out a bit cold and rejecting, rather than warm and embracing. ...but she loves me.

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vega57
32 minutes ago, MrDane said:

@vega57 as I recall, your partner wanted sex at least three times a day. This sounds like waaay to much for most sexuals. I dont feel unloved as soon as we dont have sex.

Believe me MrDane, if I told you about ALL of my late husband's sexual 'antics', you just might think he was a sexual 'deviant'.  There was  a point early in our relationship when I had to work late two days in a row (I mean until 2 a.m.), and when I came home, he was crying because we "hadn't had sex in two days"...Meanwhile I had given him a BJ that morning.  He suddenly became angry and said, "I MEANT intercourse!"  He got his 3 times a day for SOME time, which 'dwindled' to TWO times and eventually to once a day.  Then one day *I* approached HIM for sex (because he complained that I 'never' do that).  He turned *me* down...and then wanted sex several hours later.  Basically, HE wanted to be in control of *our* sex life. 

 

I don't want to be in control of "our* sex life.  But I DO want to be in control of my OWN.  If I had sex, it was because I *wanted* to (or at least, I wanted to because HE wanted it, but not "too"much)  I didn't see sex as something that should be "scheduled" or something I "should" do because my husband's/partner's balls felt 'full' (sorry it that's TMI for some here...)  I HATED the idea of a sexual saying that they wanted sex "X" amount of times a week.  It would be like me saying that I would want to tell my partner, "I love you" "X" amount of times a week.  Just seems too "programmed" for me to feel like there's "love" behind it as a motivator...

 

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I hug without thinking of it as foreplay to sex.

But so many other sexuals don't think that way.  As someone else on AVEN brought up, how many times do you have to hug someone and NOT have it lead to sex before the other person 'gets' that you don't see a hug as foreplay? 

 

 

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I think the thinking of it as foreplay, is mostly done by my ace wife. I have pretty much understood and accepted that no matter what, then she is not being turned on by my touch, not even a hug done with love. I look at our schedule and say ‘today, is x-day. Could you be okay with participating in a sexual activity with me? If you want, we can either skip today and wait and see about next scheduled session or we can take a ‘raincheck’ and see if it is better one of the following days. I would appreciate if you could help me to understand how you feel and what to expect.”

This almost seems like a clinical approach to sex.  Basically, sex for the purpose of 'physical relief'.  Oh, you may believe that there's 'love' behind it because your spouse may want to 'relieve' you.  But how does your spouse feel about that? 

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vega57
24 minutes ago, MrDane said:

...but on a normal day, I feel like I have tons of warm loving feelings inside me and I want to share it with the love of my life,

But, in WHAT WAY? 

 

We can show love in a variety of different ways.  Sex is only ONE way, yet, it seems for so many sexuals, sex is the ONLY way. 

 

And this is not only *me* talking.  It's SEXUALS who say this!  So, asexuals get the impression that sex is the ONLY way that 'love' is fulfilled by *you* (as sexuals)

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Telecaster68

Vega

 

Three times a day and crying because you only had a blowjob not full sex that morning is really, really, on the extreme end of sexual expectations. 1-2 a week, per Kinsey, remember?

 

It's unfair and inaccurate when you implicitly take that as a baseline for what 'most' sexuals are like.

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uhtred
22 hours ago, MrDane said:

The need for connection and love can be met through other things than sex. The need for sex can mostly only be met through sex.   In a good and healthy relationship between two sexuals, then sex is a joyful icing of the relationship cake. How, how much is usually up for discussion and compromises are being made all the time. Educated sexuals know how menopause, testosterone levels, sickness, age and life situations can have an impact on sexuality and things can evolve/dissolve.

What can be hard to grasp is how “stay away from me” can mean “I want to be with you” when it is spoken by an asexual. I sometimes think, that my asexual wife should be more precise about what she means.

Not for everyone. Some people do not feel love / romance without a sexual connection.  For them sex is not the icing, it is an integral part of romance.  My wife thinks the way you do - thinks of sex as dessert  - an optional fun thing to do.   For people like me, love without sex is like concrete without aggregate - weak and very easily collapses.

 

 

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